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[ba-ohs-talk] :xu: Serious deep addressing (was Re: ![Gzz] Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Starting Point for Collab Tool

Dear Eric Armstrong:    (01)

The only thing wrong with your suggestion is that it doesn't go
  quite far enough.    (02)

Not just every paragraph, but every character, must be tracked.
  When you're almost there, why stop?    (03)

I would recommend another look at the tumbler mathematics by
  Roger Gregory and Mark Miller, described in *Literary Machines*
  (you can find an illegal copy on the Web someplace, scanned as
  muiltipage fax=TIF=jfax).    (04)

This has the particular mathematical advantage of referring compactly
  to spans which can encompass both strings and groups of servers,
  and allowing permutation matrices of such spans.  This was the
  secret inner mechanism of the xu88 software described in *Literary
  Machines*.  This partially-working software (it worked on small scale,
  supposedly could be debugged to work on super scale) is available
  open source as "Udanax Green", at udanax.com and sunless-sea.net.    (05)

All my own current designs are intended to work either standalone or
  in conjunction with xu88/Udanax Green, if it ever works fully.    (06)

Best, Ted Nelson    (07)

> From:   Eric Armstrong, INTERNET:eric.armstrong@sun.com
> TO:     Alatalo Toni, INTERNET:antont@tols16.oulu.fi
> CC:     GZZ developers, INTERNET:gzz-dev@mail.freesoftware.fsf.org
>         me, INTERNET:eric.armstrong@sun.com
> DATE:   2/24/03 3:38 PM
> RE:     [Gzz] Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Starting Point for Collab Tool
> All in all, this is really good news. I understand that refactoring
> puts things in a bit of flux at the moment, but the result of it all
> will be an excellent segmentation that lets Storm get used in a
> variety of projects. It's really rather thrilling.
> On the mathematical side, I woke up the other day and realized
> that if I want to track who ever wrote anything, I'll need an 
> identifier
> big enough to identify anyone who has ever lived (for example,
> Shakespeare), and to identfiy who makes changes, I'll need one
> big enough to identify anyone who ever *will* live. Now, that
> identifier is starting to get pretty huge.
> Then, I'll need an identifier for every paragraph in every document
> on every computer that ever was or will be constructed. These
> are really big numbers now. And when someone corrects a typo
> on some page somewhere, that paragraph will need to be versioned,
> and the huge-long-identifier of the perpetrator will need to be stored,
> along with a date, just to track that one-character change.
> I began to think that, mathematically, perhaps true collaboration in
> the form of "global knowledge sharing" was impossible, and that
> the best we could do would be some sort of "local cluster", within
> which true sharing could go on.
> I look forward to the results of any thinking you guys have done on
> this subject, or any research you've managed to find that deals with
> it.
> Alatalo Toni wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003, Eric Armstrong wrote:
>>> Your article has me really intrigued. I've only mangaged to
>>> leaf through it so far, but I've seen enough to know that
>>> targets the major, critical impediment.
>> good to hear that it managed to communicate - i hope you don't mind
> cc'ing
>> this reply to the actual developers .. this way you'll get better 
>> answers
>> to the questions.
>>> The next step is to evaluate how well it does so. Have you
>>> given any thought the mathematical difficulties of the process?
>>> (Identifiers have to get simply huge!)
>> one thing about the evaluation: feel free to get a copy from
>> http://savannah.nongnu.org/cvs/?group=gzz and see it work!
>> there are some bleeding edge dependencies especially on the GUI side,
>> but much less for the storage module.
>> the project has been using Storm for about 1,5years now, as mentioned 
>> in
>> the article. the p2p networking is under development, but the basics,
> like
>> creating the block identifiers (and verifying them) are there and 
>> work.
>> i personally don't know much about it on the mathematical level, so 
>> the
>> other authors should correct me here, but my understanding is that 
>> SHA-1
>> hashes are not awfully difficult to deal with. i need to look more 
>> into
>> it, though, also to analyse the applicability in small devices. 
>> related
> to
>> p2p networking there are of course several issues, that some of the
>> authors are researching.
>> evaluation is definitely one aspect to develope in the article, too, 
>> so i
>> think it's good to have these comments.
>>> I know Eugene and some others have given this matter some
>>> thought. Have you sent a copy to Eugene, or to the Yak group?
>> no, not yet - i guess it would be good to hear reviewer's comments 
>> first.
>> also, this is bad timing for the reason that the project is in quite a
>> flux right now: we agreed on a set of new names on Friday, the whole 
>> is
>> now split to several modules and there are rewrites going on due to 
>> the
>> change of the structure (from zz to rdf, but that's not related to
> Storm).
>> a definite good thing in that reorg is that it will be clearer to use 
>> the
>> modules from outside of the project. so e.g. Storm is a whole of it's 
>> own
>> and can be used independently of the other products of the ex-Gzz 
>> project
>> (Fenfire is the new name, hence it's the Fenfire Storm now). so in a 
>> week
>> or two we should be on firmer ground -- just wanted to reply to you
>> immediately as a comment to the promising post on the unrev-list.
>> looking forward to what becomes of this,
>> ~Toni
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> To: Alatalo Toni <antont@tols16.oulu.fi>
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> Subject: [Gzz] Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Starting Point for Collab Tool
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>    (08)