Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Connecting the Dots...
FWIW: I have a program called WebQuestMapper. It is an applet, built by a
pair formed by me and Peter Jones in the UK. A screenshot of it can be
found at http://www.nexist.org/wqm/wqm1.gif (01)
The applet is not unlike Compendium (http://www.compendiuminstitute.org)
which, if you run wintel, is available for use. (02)
I can create a dialog map of the discussion and put up a screenshot if needed. (03)
WQM is a Jabber client/server, but, right now, is running on a demo
commercial server which limits groups to 5 people. It is actually part of a
larger project called Jabber4J, for which I have created an instance of
NexistWiki: http://www.nexist.org/j4j/ (04)
Jack (05)
At 07:24 AM 3/6/2003, you wrote: (06)
>Thank you.
>
>I think Eric did a good job finding a way to get us off the
>dime and get some basis for a collaborative discussion.
>
>It is not clear to me that I can engage at this level for the
>next couple of days, so Please do jump in.
>
>The next step of the process has got to be to bring focus on
>the issues raised.
>
>Is this the point that we put up a concept map?
>
>Is this the point that we draw an argument diagram?
>
>
>We have had several things go back and forth. So now how
>do we extract them into something with higher level of meaning?
>
>
>
>
>ADM Staff <adm21staff@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
> % Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> %
> %
> % Hi John,
> % I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but you've
> said much of it for me!
> % Thanks, Eric Sommer
> % John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org> wrote:
> % While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting
> % collection of links.
> %
> % However, I think that it misses some critical
> % points:
> %
> % 1) Iraq is not the problem: The implication is that
> % regime change will alter the pattern of
> % terrorism. The missing piece is that the
> % result of regime change, especially forced
> % regime change, is unpredictable.
> %
> % My belief is there is more opportunity of jumping
> % out of the pan and into the fire if the
> % change is made poorly.
> %
> % 2) The US is not the policeman of the world:
> % The issue presented assumes that regime change
> % by the US is appropriate.
> %
> % Just because you can do something does not
> % mean that you should do something.
> %
> % If California gets unhappy with Arizona for
> % abuse of the river that california wants.
> % And it becomes a life and death issue for the
> % people living in LA, is it going to be reasonable
> % for the state militia of california to arizona?
> %
> % We believe in a world ruled by law, not by
> % power and not by personality.
> %
> % Just as we would not want states using armed force,
> % we don't want a world run by arms instead of law.
> %
> %
> % 3) The law of unintended consequences.
> %
> % When you make changes in a complex system,
> % you get unpredictable side effects.
> %
> % There is no guarentee that the side effects are
> % better than the current situation
> %
> %
> % 4) Haste makes waste
> %
> % Iraq has been doing silly things for decades.
> % While eric made a case for why there is a
> % relation between Iraq and al-queda,
> % he does not make a case for timing.
> %
> % Why do we need to do something about now?
> % There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.
> % There are other tools in place that
> % can effect change without going to war.
> %
> % the cost of war is going to be much higher than
> % people imagine.
> %
> % 5) Our social system is based on trust.
> %
> % Much of what we do in the US is based on trust.
> % We assume that things will work.
> % We go to our banks and the banks don't have
> % armed guards with special scanners and door locks.
> %
> % (They do have this in Italy by the way.)
> %
> % So we have many opportunities for terrorism.
> % Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.
> %
> % How many chlorine takes can you identify on your
> % way to work?
> %
> % How many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?
> %
> % So, there is no reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
> % completly that they have in any way reduced the risk
> % of terrorism.
> %
> % If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,
> % they force more people into polarizing on the issue,
> % and it in fact breeds more terror later.
> %
> % A short term win for a long term loss.
> %
> %
> % So, I believe that eric has left out many of the issues
> % related to the case. And as such does not make the
> % compelling case for why we should do something
> % in Iraq.
> %
> % We lose more people to stupidity every year than we lost in
> % 9/11.
> %
> % It would be far more effective to engage the world
> % on a different level than the current administration is
> % operating on.
> %
> %
> %
> %
> %
> %
> %
> %
> %
> %
> %
> % -----
> % John Sechrest . Helping people use
> % CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
> % Public Electronic . more effectively
> % Access to Knowledge,Inc .
> % 1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> % Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
> % . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
> %
> % Advanced Data Management Systems
> % Email: staff@adm21.net
> % WorldWideOutline Initiative:
> % Download free Trial Client:
> % http://www.worldwideoutline.net
> % ADM homepage:
> % http://www.adm21.net
> %
> %
> % ---------------------------------
> % Do you Yahoo!?
> % Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
> % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
> % Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> %
> % <P>Hi John,
> % <P>I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but you've
> said much of it for me!
> % <P>Thanks, Eric Sommer
> % <P> <B><I>John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org></I></B> wrote:
> % <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
> #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting
> <BR>collection of links.<BR><BR>However, I think that it misses some
> critical<BR>points:<BR><BR>1) Iraq is not
> the problem: The implication is that<BR>regime change will alter the
> pattern of <BR>terrorism. The missing piece is that the <BR>result of
> regime change, especially forced<BR>regime change, is unpredictable.
> <BR><BR>My belief is there is more opportunit
> y of jumping<BR>out of the pan and into the fire if the<BR>change is
> made poorly.<BR><BR>2) The US is not the policeman of the world:<BR>The
> issue presented assumes that regime change<BR>by the US is
> appropriate.<BR><BR>Just because you can do something
> does not<BR>mean that you should do something.<BR><BR>If California
> gets unhappy with Arizona for <BR>abuse of the river that california
> wants.<BR>And it becomes a life and death issue for the <BR>people living
> in LA, is it going !
> % to be reasonable<BR>for the state militia of california to
> arizona?<BR><BR>We believe in a world ruled by law, not by <BR>power and
> not by personality. <BR><BR>Just as we would not want states using armed
> force,<BR>we don't want a world run by arms ins
> tead of law.<BR><BR><BR>3) The law of unintended
> consequences.<BR><BR>When you make changes in a complex system,<BR>you
> get unpredictable side effects. <BR><BR>There is no guarentee that the
> side effects are<BR>better than the current situation<BR><BR><
> BR>4) Haste makes waste<BR><BR>Iraq has been doing silly things for
> decades. <BR>While eric made a case for why there is a <BR>relation
> between Iraq and al-queda,<BR>he does not make a case for
> timing.<BR><BR>Why do we need to do something about now?<BR
> >There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.<BR>There are other
> tools in place that<BR>can effect change without going to war.<BR><BR>the
> cost of war is going to be much higher than<BR>people imagine.<BR><BR>5)
> Our social sys!
> % tem is based on trust.<BR><BR>Much of what we do in the US is!
> % based on trust.<BR>We assume that things will work.<BR>We go to our
> banks and the banks don't have<BR>armed guards with special scanners and
> door locks.<BR><BR>(They do have this in Italy by the way.)<BR><BR>So we
> have many opportunities for terrorism
> .<BR>Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.<BR><BR>How
> many chlorine takes can you identify on your<BR>way to work? <BR><BR>How
> many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?<BR><BR>So, there is no
> reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
> <BR>completly that they have in any way reduced the risk<BR>of
> terrorism. <BR><BR>If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,<BR>they
> force more people into polarizing on the issue,<BR>and it in fact breeds
> more terror later.<BR><BR>A short term win for
> a long term loss.<BR><BR><BR>So, I believe that eric has left out many
> of the issues<BR>related to the case. And as such does not make the
> <BR>compelling case for why we should do something<BR>in Iraq.<BR><BR>We
> lose more people to!
> % stupidity every year than we lost in<BR>9/11. <BR><BR>It would be far
> more effective to engage the world<BR>on a different level than the
> current administration is<BR>operating
> on.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----<BR>John Sechrest
> . Helping people use<BR>CTO PEAK - . computers and the
> Internet<BR>Public Electronic . more effectively<BR>Access to
> Knowledge,Inc . <BR>1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet:
> sechrest@peak.org<BR>Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325<BR>. http://www.
> peak.org/~sechrest</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Advanced Data Management
> Systems<br>Email: staff@adm21.net<br>WorldWideOutline Initiative:
> <br>Download free Trial Client:<br>http://www.worldwideoutline.net<br>ADM
> homepage:<br>http://www.adm21.net<p><br><hr size=
> 1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
> % <a
> href="http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailtagline/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/";>Yahoo!
> Tax Center</a> - forms, calculators, tips, and more
> % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153--
> %
>
>-----
>John Sechrest . Helping people use
>CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
>Public Electronic . more effectively
>Access to Knowledge,Inc .
>1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
>Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
> . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest (07)
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