Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Connecting the Dots...
(I like where this is headed, you guys!) (01)
Jack Park wrote:
>
> Weblogs do RSS in the latest NexistWiki (see http://www.nexist.org/jt/ for
> the latest rendition).
> Touchgraph is not wired into this version (yet).
>
> Theoretically speaking, I can export in any format desired, including .dot
> format.
> IBIS should be wired up in NexistWiki later next week.
>
> Jack
>
> At 08:25 AM 3/6/2003, you wrote:
>
> >Do you have any graphviz compatable tools that dynamically
> >build things?
> >
> >
> >If we use the .dot format used by the graphviz tools, then
> >I can put a static argument up in Omnigraffle.
> >
> >[The .dot format looks like:
> >
> >
> > digraph Iraq {
> >
> > Iraq -> "War with Iraq";
> > "War with Iraq"-> "regime change";
> > "War with Iraq"-> "unstability";
> > "unstability" -> "bad result(john)" ;
> > "regime change" -> "good result(eric) ";
> > }
> >
> >
> >We can then formulate the conversation by email in text , but
> >glue together the form into a diagram offline.
> >
> >In some sense, we are at the point where a dynamic tool would help.
> >
> >do you still have the touchgraph glue into your nexist wiki?
> >
> >Do you have an RSS feed/mail feed off your nexist wiki?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Jack Park <jackpark@thinkalong.com> writes:
> >
> > % FWIW: I have a program called WebQuestMapper. It is an applet, built by a
> > % pair formed by me and Peter Jones in the UK. A screenshot of it can be
> > % found at http://www.nexist.org/wqm/wqm1.gif
> > %
> > % The applet is not unlike Compendium (http://www.compendiuminstitute.org)
> > % which, if you run wintel, is available for use.
> > %
> > % I can create a dialog map of the discussion and put up a screenshot if
> > needed.
> > %
> > % WQM is a Jabber client/server, but, right now, is running on a demo
> > % commercial server which limits groups to 5 people. It is actually part
> > of a
> > % larger project called Jabber4J, for which I have created an instance of
> > % NexistWiki: http://www.nexist.org/j4j/
> > %
> > % Jack
> > %
> > % At 07:24 AM 3/6/2003, you wrote:
> > %
> > % >Thank you.
> > % >
> > % >I think Eric did a good job finding a way to get us off the
> > % >dime and get some basis for a collaborative discussion.
> > % >
> > % >It is not clear to me that I can engage at this level for the
> > % >next couple of days, so Please do jump in.
> > % >
> > % >The next step of the process has got to be to bring focus on
> > % >the issues raised.
> > % >
> > % >Is this the point that we put up a concept map?
> > % >
> > % >Is this the point that we draw an argument diagram?
> > % >
> > % >
> > % >We have had several things go back and forth. So now how
> > % >do we extract them into something with higher level of meaning?
> > % >
> > % >
> > % >
> > % >
> > % >ADM Staff <adm21staff@yahoo.com> writes:
> > % >
> > % > % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
> > % > % Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > % Hi John,
> > % > % I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but you've
> > % > said much of it for me!
> > % > % Thanks, Eric Sommer
> > % > % John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org> wrote:
> > % > % While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting
> > % > % collection of links.
> > % > %
> > % > % However, I think that it misses some critical
> > % > % points:
> > % > %
> > % > % 1) Iraq is not the problem: The implication is that
> > % > % regime change will alter the pattern of
> > % > % terrorism. The missing piece is that the
> > % > % result of regime change, especially forced
> > % > % regime change, is unpredictable.
> > % > %
> > % > % My belief is there is more opportunity of jumping
> > % > % out of the pan and into the fire if the
> > % > % change is made poorly.
> > % > %
> > % > % 2) The US is not the policeman of the world:
> > % > % The issue presented assumes that regime change
> > % > % by the US is appropriate.
> > % > %
> > % > % Just because you can do something does not
> > % > % mean that you should do something.
> > % > %
> > % > % If California gets unhappy with Arizona for
> > % > % abuse of the river that california wants.
> > % > % And it becomes a life and death issue for the
> > % > % people living in LA, is it going to be reasonable
> > % > % for the state militia of california to arizona?
> > % > %
> > % > % We believe in a world ruled by law, not by
> > % > % power and not by personality.
> > % > %
> > % > % Just as we would not want states using armed force,
> > % > % we don't want a world run by arms instead of law.
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > % 3) The law of unintended consequences.
> > % > %
> > % > % When you make changes in a complex system,
> > % > % you get unpredictable side effects.
> > % > %
> > % > % There is no guarentee that the side effects are
> > % > % better than the current situation
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > % 4) Haste makes waste
> > % > %
> > % > % Iraq has been doing silly things for decades.
> > % > % While eric made a case for why there is a
> > % > % relation between Iraq and al-queda,
> > % > % he does not make a case for timing.
> > % > %
> > % > % Why do we need to do something about now?
> > % > % There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.
> > % > % There are other tools in place that
> > % > % can effect change without going to war.
> > % > %
> > % > % the cost of war is going to be much higher than
> > % > % people imagine.
> > % > %
> > % > % 5) Our social system is based on trust.
> > % > %
> > % > % Much of what we do in the US is based on trust.
> > % > % We assume that things will work.
> > % > % We go to our banks and the banks don't have
> > % > % armed guards with special scanners and door locks.
> > % > %
> > % > % (They do have this in Italy by the way.)
> > % > %
> > % > % So we have many opportunities for terrorism.
> > % > % Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.
> > % > %
> > % > % How many chlorine takes can you identify on your
> > % > % way to work?
> > % > %
> > % > % How many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?
> > % > %
> > % > % So, there is no reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
> > % > % completly that they have in any way reduced the risk
> > % > % of terrorism.
> > % > %
> > % > % If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,
> > % > % they force more people into polarizing on the issue,
> > % > % and it in fact breeds more terror later.
> > % > %
> > % > % A short term win for a long term loss.
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > % So, I believe that eric has left out many of the issues
> > % > % related to the case. And as such does not make the
> > % > % compelling case for why we should do something
> > % > % in Iraq.
> > % > %
> > % > % We lose more people to stupidity every year than we lost in
> > % > % 9/11.
> > % > %
> > % > % It would be far more effective to engage the world
> > % > % on a different level than the current administration is
> > % > % operating on.
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > % -----
> > % > % John Sechrest . Helping people use
> > % > % CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
> > % > % Public Electronic . more effectively
> > % > % Access to Knowledge,Inc .
> > % > % 1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> > % > % Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
> > % > % . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
> > % > %
> > % > % Advanced Data Management Systems
> > % > % Email: staff@adm21.net
> > % > % WorldWideOutline Initiative:
> > % > % Download free Trial Client:
> > % > % http://www.worldwideoutline.net
> > % > % ADM homepage:
> > % > % http://www.adm21.net
> > % > %
> > % > %
> > % > % ---------------------------------
> > % > % Do you Yahoo!?
> > % > % Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more
> > % > % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153
> > % > % Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
> > % > %
> > % > % <P>Hi John,
> > % > % <P>I was wondering whether to enter the fray on this issue; but
> > you've
> > % > said much of it for me!
> > % > % <P>Thanks, Eric Sommer
> > % > % <P> <B><I>John Sechrest <sechrest@peak.org></I></B> wrote:
> > % > % <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
> > % > #1010ff 2px solid"><BR>While I think that Eric has drawn an interesting
> > % > <BR>collection of links.<BR><BR>However, I think that it misses some
> > % > critical<BR>points:<BR><BR>1) Iraq is not
> > % > the problem: The implication is that<BR>regime change will alter the
> > % > pattern of <BR>terrorism. The missing piece is that the <BR>result of
> > % > regime change, especially forced<BR>regime change, is unpredictable.
> > % > <BR><BR>My belief is there is more opportunit
> > % > y of jumping<BR>out of the pan and into the fire if the<BR>change is
> > % > made poorly.<BR><BR>2) The US is not the policeman of the world:<BR>The
> > % > issue presented assumes that regime change<BR>by the US is
> > % > appropriate.<BR><BR>Just because you can do something
> > % > does not<BR>mean that you should do something.<BR><BR>If California
> > % > gets unhappy with Arizona for <BR>abuse of the river that california
> > % > wants.<BR>And it becomes a life and death issue for the <BR>people
> > living
> > % > in LA, is it going !
> > % > % to be reasonable<BR>for the state militia of california to
> > % > arizona?<BR><BR>We believe in a world ruled by law, not by <BR>power
> > and
> > % > not by personality. <BR><BR>Just as we would not want states using
> > armed
> > % > force,<BR>we don't want a world run by arms ins
> > % > tead of law.<BR><BR><BR>3) The law of unintended
> > % > consequences.<BR><BR>When you make changes in a complex system,<BR>you
> > % > get unpredictable side effects. <BR><BR>There is no guarentee that the
> > % > side effects are<BR>better than the current situation<BR><BR><
> > % > BR>4) Haste makes waste<BR><BR>Iraq has been doing silly things for
> > % > decades. <BR>While eric made a case for why there is a <BR>relation
> > % > between Iraq and al-queda,<BR>he does not make a case for
> > % > timing.<BR><BR>Why do we need to do something about now?<BR
> > % > >There is no compleling reason to invade Iraq now.<BR>There are other
> > % > tools in place that<BR>can effect change without going to
> > war.<BR><BR>the
> > % > cost of war is going to be much higher than<BR>people
> > imagine.<BR><BR>5)
> > % > Our social sys!
> > % > % tem is based on trust.<BR><BR>Much of what we do in the US is!
> > % > % based on trust.<BR>We assume that things will work.<BR>We go to our
> > % > banks and the banks don't have<BR>armed guards with special scanners
> > and
> > % > door locks.<BR><BR>(They do have this in Italy by the
> > way.)<BR><BR>So we
> > % > have many opportunities for terrorism
> > % > .<BR>Any truck into a chlorine tank will take out a city.<BR><BR>How
> > % > many chlorine takes can you identify on your<BR>way to work?
> > <BR><BR>How
> > % > many people died in Bpol because of a gas leak?<BR><BR>So, there is no
> > % > reason to expect that if Iraq is changed
> > % > <BR>completly that they have in any way reduced the risk<BR>of
> > % > terrorism. <BR><BR>If fact, by forcing the issue in this way,<BR>they
> > % > force more people into polarizing on the issue,<BR>and it in fact
> > breeds
> > % > more terror later.<BR><BR>A short term win for
> > % > a long term loss.<BR><BR><BR>So, I believe that eric has left out
> > many
> > % > of the issues<BR>related to the case. And as such does not make the
> > % > <BR>compelling case for why we should do something<BR>in
> > Iraq.<BR><BR>We
> > % > lose more people to!
> > % > % stupidity every year than we lost in<BR>9/11. <BR><BR>It would
> > be far
> > % > more effective to engage the world<BR>on a different level than the
> > % > current administration is<BR>operating
> > % > on.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>-----<BR>John
> > Sechrest
> > % > . Helping people use<BR>CTO PEAK - . computers and the
> > % > Internet<BR>Public Electronic . more effectively<BR>Access to
> > % > Knowledge,Inc . <BR>1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet:
> > % > sechrest@peak.org<BR>Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325<BR>.
> > http://www.
> > % > peak.org/~sechrest</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>Advanced Data Management
> > % > Systems<br>Email: staff@adm21.net<br>WorldWideOutline Initiative:
> > % > <br>Download free Trial
> > Client:<br>http://www.worldwideoutline.net<br>ADM
> > % > homepage:<br>http://www.adm21.net<p><br><hr size=
> > % > 1>Do you Yahoo!?<br>
> > % > % <a
> > % >
> > href="http://rd.yahoo.com/finance/mailtagline/*http://taxes.yahoo.com/";>Yahoo!
> > % > Tax Center</a> - forms, calculators, tips, and more
> > % > % --0-2115289485-1046940156=:31153--
> > % > %
> > % >
> > % >-----
> > % >John Sechrest . Helping people use
> > % >CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
> > % >Public Electronic . more effectively
> > % >Access to Knowledge,Inc .
> > % >1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> > % >Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
> > % > .
> > http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
> > %
> > %
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > % XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
> > % Addison-Wesley. Jack Park, Editor. Sam Hunting, Technical Editor
> > %
> > % Build smarter kids globally to reduce the need for smarter bombs.
> > %
> > %
> >
> >-----
> >John Sechrest . Helping people use
> >CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
> >Public Electronic . more effectively
> >Access to Knowledge,Inc .
> >1600 SW Western, Suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
> >Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
> > . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
> Addison-Wesley. Jack Park, Editor. Sam Hunting, Technical Editor
>
> Build smarter kids globally to reduce the need for smarter bombs. (02)