From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jan 1 08:21:04 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B798A56F84; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 08:21:01 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts15.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.3]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E6AE56F82 for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 08:21:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.128]) by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20020101163449.PCSK28977.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:34:49 -0500 Message-ID: <3C31E54C.CD70FE7F@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 11:35:24 -0500 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Neuronal learning observed References: <4.2.2.20011231180846.023d67f0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fascinating. And that is just the beginning of (a) extracranial neural computing and (b) directly addressing what is inside the skull. About the latter, see also three approaches in www.fleabyte.org/flb-12.html With such implications,as commercial and other authoritarian control, priority need be given to thinking about the human prospect, what it is we are after, values, etc. Henry Jack Park wrote: > Found this on slashdot. > http://www.eetimes.com/story/technology/OEG20011217S0047 > "SAN DIEGO - Harnessing the photoconductive properties of novel silicon > "neurochips," researchers at the University of California, San Diego have > been able to directly observe the physical changes that neurons undergo > during learning. > By non-invasively firing specific neurons grown on a silicon substrate, the > researchers were able to identify the exact physical changes, which were > observed with a fluorescent tracer. Laboratory observations during learning > regimes were able to verify the specific physical changes resulting in > short- and long-term memories. " From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 2 11:03:07 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 99E3A56F79; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:03:06 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADD956F78 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:03:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 ([209.63.33.65]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g02JGsXv031614 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 11:16:55 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020102111101.023d4bd0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 11:11:23 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: CG: Re: "Abstract" and "dimensionality" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: "John F. Sowa" > >Following are two articles from today's issue of Science Daily >that shed some light on what is going on in the brain. The first >article is about the areas of the brain that are activated when >blind people read Braille: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/01/020102080342.htm > >Opening paragraph: > > "Individuals who have been blind from birth use different parts > of their brain when they read Braille than do those who lost their > sight later in life -- a difference that sheds new light on the > relationship between thought and language." > >The second article is about the effects of that wonder drug >called the placebo: > > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/01/020102074543.htm > >Opening paragraph: > > "UCLA researchers are the first to report altered brain > function in people who respond favorably to placebo treatment > for major depression. In addition, the findings show these > changes are different than those found in people who respond > to antidepressant medication." > >What these studies show is that similar effects at the behavioral >level can result from different kinds of neural processes in >different individuals. We all know that what goes on inside >a computer is very different from what goes on inside the human >brain, but there is accumulating evidence that different brains >can achieve similar results with different kinds of internal >processes. > >That is an important reason for analyzing the results or methods >of human thinking in a way that is independent of the terminology >and mechanisms of the human brain (or soul or psyche or whatever >other term anyone might care to use). > >The term I prefer to apply to all processes that might be performed >by the human brain (or the brains of other animals) is "semiosis", >which is the process of sign manipulation that is analyzed and >characterized by the field of semiotics. > >All brains and all computers are semiotic processors that take >signs as inputs and generate signs as outputs. The study of signs >and the processes that interpret and generate them can be expressed >in terms that do not involve any reference to psychology, neurons, >or computer programs. > >In fact, semiotics is related to psychology as mathematics is related >to physics. More precisely, semiotics is that branch of applied >mathematics that analyzes signs in the same way that the differential >equations of applied mathematics analyze physical fields. > >John Sowa >======================================================================== >To post a message, send mail to cg@cs.uah.edu. >To unsubscribe, send mail to majordomo@cs.uah.edu with the command >'unsubscribe cg' in the message body. >See http://www.virtual-earth.de/CG/cg-list/ for the mailing list archive >See http://www.cs.uah.edu/~delugach/CG for the Conceptual Graph Home Page >For help or administrative assistance, mail to owner-cg@cs.uah.edu From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 2 14:56:58 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 721FE56F79; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 14:56:57 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFAB56F78 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 14:56:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA22913; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:10:24 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g02NAfM01151; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:10:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C339372.52BD54B0@sun.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:10:42 -0800 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk , me , John Horan , Lara Fabans Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Automated Email-based CHAT-FAQ Expert System Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This message encasulates a recent email exchange in which I thought out more of the concepts involved in an automated, interactive FAQ system: Doug wrote: > I'm always happy to answer questions directly, if it will save people time. > I'm glad you asked. Yeah. It is amazing how what's on the top of your head for one person is miles away for someone else. Like Eric Raymond wrote on the subject of open source software: "With enough eyes, all bugs are shallow." I would absolutely LOVE to work on a system that monitored email traffic, storing responses to questions, and which made it possible for people to discover answers through automated queries. I figure that such a system would make a best try at finding an answer, but that people would always be involved to interpret the question, answer it, and make the system smarter. There is some ontology work using topic maps and the like that would be spectacularly useful for such an undertaking. My dream job. Good for a year or two, at least. Doug wrote: > Sounds great. It would be a great project to work on. I'd set it up as a filter on the company mailing list, with a companion screen that people could use to modify the ontological underpinnings of the system. That way, the automated system could take a stab at replying whenever it could, saving people from having to repeat themselves too often. (That would be the idea, at least.) Clearly, the system has a lot of potential benefit. Who do we know that would want to fund such a thing? Doug wrote: > Nobody else has attempted to solve this problem already? > I'd love to dump my tips into a system that everyone could > update/contribute to. That would be a great place to start building a database of automatically- answerable questions. This is a problem that is poised on the cusp of becoming solvable. There have been some attempts at intelligent customer service systems, but so far they have fallen rather flat. The tack I recommend -- an integrated email conversation with an answerbot sitting in and being educated, has never really been tried. It is an approach I have been recommending for most of my professional career -- that an integrated man/machine systems will always outperform either one by itself. Then, too, the recent work on ontologies has a tremendous capability for expediting such a system. For example, if a user asks: "I put floppy #2 in the drive, but I need to back up and put in #1 first, How do I do that?" With a keyword-driven system, the machine sees "floppy" and "back up", and gives the user instructions for copying files. Not very helpful! But an ontology-based system potentially has the capacity to recognize the context as "floppy in drive" and the "back up" as meaning "go back to previous step". It can then deduce that the instructions are: * put the computer where you can see it * turn on the lights * find the slot where you put the floppy in * press the button on the slot to eject the floppy * find the floppy labeled "#1" * insert it Doug Lenat's cyc system, for example, has enough "common sense" to know that "back up" means eject, in this case. Even so, capturing the ontology-information necessary to recognize and successfully answer a query like that is no easy task. And trying to anticipate every possible question in advance is both prohibitively expensive and impractical. The system I propose would have 4 components: * Users who make queries via email * The AnswerBot which listens to queries, and which attempts to answer when it can * Experts who answer them when the AnswerBot can't, or who correct the AnswerBot's misguided attempts (and who act as users in other areas) * Ontology Librarians who add ontology-information that make it possible for the system to find information it already has, but didn't know how to relate to the specific query. One way to do that is by importing the topic map versions of the stuff Lenat has released. (Some material is free. More can be purchased.) Another way is by adding additional ontological structure: For example the fact that "back up" can mean "go back a step" as well as "copy files", depending on context. Note: Ideally, Experts will answer with pointers into an indexed FAQ, which will make it easy for the ontology librarians to recognize that the information already exists. Otherwise, they can capture the information as a new nugget for the FAQ. [Purple numbers, anyone?] In addition to maintaining the ontology library, these folks use their human intelligence to recognize which reponses were helpful, and create new info tidbits (nuggets/tips) for the system. So in a way they are documentation / customer support / expert-system-administration gurus. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 2 15:13:34 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 703B756F79; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:13:33 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCFE056F78 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:13:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st200.cwo.com [208.186.39.210]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g02NRLXv030433 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:27:22 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020102152057.02356280@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:24:32 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Automated Email-based CHAT-FAQ Expert System In-Reply-To: <3C339372.52BD54B0@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I just spent the last couple of days hooking up a relational database to KnownSpace http://www.knownspace.org and got it working, sortof. Couple dozen bugs left, but hey, what the heck. KnownSpace has an email client. It also has lots of little agents that do things when events are generated, like when a new email is received. It includes a Latent Semantic Analysis agent that can play nice with keywords. I am thinking that KnownSpace (Java, Apache license) would make a great starting place. BTW: as of this morning, there exists http://sourceforge.net/projects/knownspace although since it just went up today, nothing is there yet. Jack At 03:10 PM 1/2/2002 -0800, Eric Armstrong wrote: >This message encasulates a recent email exchange in which >I thought out more of the concepts involved in an automated, >interactive FAQ system: > >Doug wrote: > > > I'm always happy to answer questions directly, if it will save people >time. > > I'm glad you asked. > >Yeah. It is amazing how what's on the top of your head for one person is > >miles away for someone else. Like Eric Raymond wrote on the subject of >open source software: "With enough eyes, all bugs are shallow." > >I would absolutely LOVE to work on a system that monitored email >traffic, storing responses to questions, and which made it possible for >people to discover answers through automated queries. > >I figure that such a system would make a best try at finding an answer, >but that people would always be involved to interpret the question, >answer it, and make the system smarter. > >There is some ontology work using topic maps and the like that would >be spectacularly useful for such an undertaking. My dream job. Good >for a year or two, at least. > >Doug wrote: > > > Sounds great. > >It would be a great project to work on. I'd set it up as a filter >on the company mailing list, with a companion screen that >people could use to modify the ontological underpinnings of the >system. > >That way, the automated system could take a stab at replying >whenever it could, saving people from having to repeat themselves >too often. (That would be the idea, at least.) > >Clearly, the system has a lot of potential benefit. Who do we know >that would want to fund such a thing? > >Doug wrote: > > > Nobody else has attempted to solve this problem already? > > I'd love to dump my tips into a system that everyone could > > update/contribute to. > >That would be a great place to start building a database of >automatically- >answerable questions. > >This is a problem that is poised on the cusp of becoming solvable. There > >have been some attempts at intelligent customer service systems, but so >far they have fallen rather flat. > >The tack I recommend -- an integrated email conversation with an >answerbot sitting in and being educated, has never really been tried. >It is an approach I have been recommending for most of my professional >career -- that an integrated man/machine systems will always outperform >either one by itself. > >Then, too, the recent work on ontologies has a tremendous capability >for expediting such a system. For example, if a user asks: > > "I put floppy #2 in the drive, but I need to back up and put in #1 >first, > How do I do that?" > >With a keyword-driven system, the machine sees "floppy" and >"back up", and gives the user instructions for copying files. Not very >helpful! > >But an ontology-based system potentially has the capacity to recognize >the context as "floppy in drive" and the "back up" as meaning "go back >to previous step". It can then deduce that the instructions are: > > * put the computer where you can see it > * turn on the lights > * find the slot where you put the floppy in > * press the button on the slot to eject the floppy > * find the floppy labeled "#1" > * insert it > >Doug Lenat's cyc system, for example, has enough "common sense" to >know that "back up" means eject, in this case. Even so, capturing the >ontology-information necessary to recognize and successfully answer >a query like that is no easy task. And trying to anticipate every >possible question in advance is both prohibitively expensive and >impractical. > >The system I propose would have 4 components: > * Users > who make queries via email > > * The AnswerBot > which listens to queries, and which attempts to answer > when it can > > * Experts > who answer them when the AnswerBot can't, > or who correct the AnswerBot's misguided attempts > (and who act as users in other areas) > > * Ontology Librarians > who add ontology-information that make it possible for the > system to find information it already has, but didn't know > how to relate to the specific query. > > One way to do that is by importing the topic map versions of > the stuff Lenat has released. (Some material is free. More > can be purchased.) Another way is by adding additional > ontological structure: For example the fact that "back up" > can mean "go back a step" as well as "copy files", depending > on context. > > Note: > Ideally, Experts will answer with pointers into an indexed FAQ, > which will make it easy for the ontology librarians to recognize > that the information already exists. Otherwise, they can capture > the information as a new nugget for the FAQ. > [Purple numbers, anyone?] > > In addition to maintaining the ontology library, these folks use > their human intelligence to recognize which reponses were > helpful, and create new info tidbits (nuggets/tips) for the system. > > So in a way they are documentation / customer support / > expert-system-administration gurus. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 2 15:22:40 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5CD1356F7A; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:22:40 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F221F56F78 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:22:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09738; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g02NaOM04474; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 15:36:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C339979.7533DF36@sun.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:36:25 -0800 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: me , John Horan , Lara Fabans Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Automated Email-based CHAT-FAQ ExpertSystem References: <4.2.2.20020102152057.02356280@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I think you're right, that sounds like an excellent place to start, on the technology side. Now if I can just figure out a path to get the effort funded. I need someone in a large company who understands the value of such a system, and will take up my contract. Or I need to find an entrepreneur who understands the value, and start developing the business plan! Jack Park wrote: > I just spent the last couple of days hooking up a relational database to > KnownSpace http://www.knownspace.org and got it working, sortof. Couple > dozen bugs left, but hey, what the heck. > > KnownSpace has an email client. It also has lots of little agents that do > things when events are generated, like when a new email is received. It > includes a Latent Semantic Analysis agent that can play nice with > keywords. I am thinking that KnownSpace (Java, Apache license) would make > a great starting place. BTW: as of this morning, there exists > http://sourceforge.net/projects/knownspace although since it just went up > today, nothing is there yet. > > Jack > > At 03:10 PM 1/2/2002 -0800, Eric Armstrong wrote: > >This message encasulates a recent email exchange in which > >I thought out more of the concepts involved in an automated, > >interactive FAQ system: > > > >Doug wrote: > > > > > I'm always happy to answer questions directly, if it will save people > >time. > > > I'm glad you asked. > > > >Yeah. It is amazing how what's on the top of your head for one person is > > > >miles away for someone else. Like Eric Raymond wrote on the subject of > >open source software: "With enough eyes, all bugs are shallow." > > > >I would absolutely LOVE to work on a system that monitored email > >traffic, storing responses to questions, and which made it possible for > >people to discover answers through automated queries. > > > >I figure that such a system would make a best try at finding an answer, > >but that people would always be involved to interpret the question, > >answer it, and make the system smarter. > > > >There is some ontology work using topic maps and the like that would > >be spectacularly useful for such an undertaking. My dream job. Good > >for a year or two, at least. > > > >Doug wrote: > > > > > Sounds great. > > > >It would be a great project to work on. I'd set it up as a filter > >on the company mailing list, with a companion screen that > >people could use to modify the ontological underpinnings of the > >system. > > > >That way, the automated system could take a stab at replying > >whenever it could, saving people from having to repeat themselves > >too often. (That would be the idea, at least.) > > > >Clearly, the system has a lot of potential benefit. Who do we know > >that would want to fund such a thing? > > > >Doug wrote: > > > > > Nobody else has attempted to solve this problem already? > > > I'd love to dump my tips into a system that everyone could > > > update/contribute to. > > > >That would be a great place to start building a database of > >automatically- > >answerable questions. > > > >This is a problem that is poised on the cusp of becoming solvable. There > > > >have been some attempts at intelligent customer service systems, but so > >far they have fallen rather flat. > > > >The tack I recommend -- an integrated email conversation with an > >answerbot sitting in and being educated, has never really been tried. > >It is an approach I have been recommending for most of my professional > >career -- that an integrated man/machine systems will always outperform > >either one by itself. > > > >Then, too, the recent work on ontologies has a tremendous capability > >for expediting such a system. For example, if a user asks: > > > > "I put floppy #2 in the drive, but I need to back up and put in #1 > >first, > > How do I do that?" > > > >With a keyword-driven system, the machine sees "floppy" and > >"back up", and gives the user instructions for copying files. Not very > >helpful! > > > >But an ontology-based system potentially has the capacity to recognize > >the context as "floppy in drive" and the "back up" as meaning "go back > >to previous step". It can then deduce that the instructions are: > > > > * put the computer where you can see it > > * turn on the lights > > * find the slot where you put the floppy in > > * press the button on the slot to eject the floppy > > * find the floppy labeled "#1" > > * insert it > > > >Doug Lenat's cyc system, for example, has enough "common sense" to > >know that "back up" means eject, in this case. Even so, capturing the > >ontology-information necessary to recognize and successfully answer > >a query like that is no easy task. And trying to anticipate every > >possible question in advance is both prohibitively expensive and > >impractical. > > > >The system I propose would have 4 components: > > * Users > > who make queries via email > > > > * The AnswerBot > > which listens to queries, and which attempts to answer > > when it can > > > > * Experts > > who answer them when the AnswerBot can't, > > or who correct the AnswerBot's misguided attempts > > (and who act as users in other areas) > > > > * Ontology Librarians > > who add ontology-information that make it possible for the > > system to find information it already has, but didn't know > > how to relate to the specific query. > > > > One way to do that is by importing the topic map versions of > > the stuff Lenat has released. (Some material is free. More > > can be purchased.) Another way is by adding additional > > ontological structure: For example the fact that "back up" > > can mean "go back a step" as well as "copy files", depending > > on context. > > > > Note: > > Ideally, Experts will answer with pointers into an indexed FAQ, > > which will make it easy for the ontology librarians to recognize > > that the information already exists. Otherwise, they can capture > > the information as a new nugget for the FAQ. > > [Purple numbers, anyone?] > > > > In addition to maintaining the ontology library, these folks use > > their human intelligence to recognize which reponses were > > helpful, and create new info tidbits (nuggets/tips) for the system. > > > > So in a way they are documentation / customer support / > > expert-system-administration gurus. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 2 16:10:37 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B9F1B56F79; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:10:36 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F74A56F78 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:10:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from home ([63.197.14.24]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with SMTP id <0GPC000I86GRHO@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:24:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:24:40 -0800 From: John Maloney Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Automated Email-based CHAT-FAQ Expert System In-reply-to: <3C339979.7533DF36@sun.com> To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: John Horan , Lara Fabans Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Greetings and Happy New Year to the Unfinished Revolution! There are commercial offerings that may provide some context for this initiative. For example: http://www.tacit.com http://www.orbitalsoftware.com There are many others. Most offerings provide for Users, AnswerBot and Experts and have been around for quite some time. It is clearly a viable space. Efforts to improve and maximize these techniques around emerging architectures, open technologies and shared business semantics are laudable and could make a real contribution. However, these subsystems are most effective at the intersection of people, process -and- technology. Technology-centered deployments are often challenged, but that's preaching to the ba-unrev-talk choir... Anyway, there is a lot of progress to be made here. If you wish, please contact me offline to discuss further. All the best in 2002! John Maloney www.kmcluster.com Email: jtmalone@pacbell.net Cell: 415.902.9676 MSM/Groove/AIM:jheuristic -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 3:36 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: me; John Horan; Lara Fabans Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Automated Email-based CHAT-FAQ ExpertSystem I think you're right, that sounds like an excellent place to start, on the technology side. Now if I can just figure out a path to get the effort funded. I need someone in a large company who understands the value of such a system, and will take up my contract. Or I need to find an entrepreneur who understands the value, and start developing the business plan! Jack Park wrote: > I just spent the last couple of days hooking up a relational database to > KnownSpace http://www.knownspace.org and got it working, sortof. Couple > dozen bugs left, but hey, what the heck. > > KnownSpace has an email client. It also has lots of little agents that do > things when events are generated, like when a new email is received. It > includes a Latent Semantic Analysis agent that can play nice with > keywords. I am thinking that KnownSpace (Java, Apache license) would make > a great starting place. BTW: as of this morning, there exists > http://sourceforge.net/projects/knownspace although since it just went up > today, nothing is there yet. > > Jack > > At 03:10 PM 1/2/2002 -0800, Eric Armstrong wrote: > >This message encasulates a recent email exchange in which > >I thought out more of the concepts involved in an automated, > >interactive FAQ system: > > > >Doug wrote: > > > > > I'm always happy to answer questions directly, if it will save people > >time. > > > I'm glad you asked. > > > >Yeah. It is amazing how what's on the top of your head for one person is > > > >miles away for someone else. Like Eric Raymond wrote on the subject of > >open source software: "With enough eyes, all bugs are shallow." > > > >I would absolutely LOVE to work on a system that monitored email > >traffic, storing responses to questions, and which made it possible for > >people to discover answers through automated queries. > > > >I figure that such a system would make a best try at finding an answer, > >but that people would always be involved to interpret the question, > >answer it, and make the system smarter. > > > >There is some ontology work using topic maps and the like that would > >be spectacularly useful for such an undertaking. My dream job. Good > >for a year or two, at least. > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 2 16:44:51 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B40FA56F79; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:44:50 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E78156F78 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:44:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA17043 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 17:58:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g030wcM19856 for ; Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:58:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3C33ACBF.67D5DA80@sun.com> Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:58:39 -0800 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Automated Email-based CHAT-FAQ Expert System References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org John Maloney wrote: > There are commercial offerings that may provide some context for (the > auto-email-faq) initiative. There are many others. Most offerings provide > for Users, AnswerBot and Experts and have been around for quite some > time. For example: > > http://www.tacit.com Awesome example of what a demo should look like. Pop in, watch an animated screen presentation with voice-over, and get the main ideas in a hurry: * Based on an html search engine * Does keyword search for people * Lets you describe the problem, and then either a) Creates a contact list of knowledgeable people, or b) Sends an email to potentially knoweldgeable people. (I couln't quite hear the audio well enough to tell -- my problem, I think. In any case, there is a rich opportunity here for intelligence, although I suspect they are doing straight keyword matching.) * Extracts keywords from the messages you send. That part is *very* interesting. It figures out what you know and makes a list of those keywords. You then select which ones you want to publish. (How you know when to visit the list to change your options, though, I'm not sure.) > http://www.orbitalsoftware.com MUCH drier presentation. Bunch of pages with lots to read, and the occasional too-small-to-read, non-expandable screenshot. These sites are teaching me about the right way to do marketing! Bullet points: * Ask and answer questions * Search for existing questions and answers * Escalate and route questions to experts * Find people with specific expertise They're saying the right things, here. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jan 3 07:45:13 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id AB54E56F79; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:45:12 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66E9856F78 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:45:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st34.cwo.com [208.186.39.44]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g03Fx1Xv022266 for ; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:59:02 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020103074946.02517ba0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 07:56:29 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] _How We Became Posthuman_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I have not read this book, but I intend to. I picked up this reference from the complexity-L list run by Don Mikulecky. An interview with N. Katherine Hayles on her books can be found at: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/borghayl.html Example: Question: "This email message, like most of the email found in the inbox of your computer's email program, was written and sent by a person, and not by some disembodied intelligent machine. However, these days, it's possible to imagine that this message was machine-generated. In your books, Holding On to Reality and How We Became Posthuman you both discuss how we got to this point. Could you summarize briefly, as a place to begin?" Response: "In How We Became Posthuman, I tell three interrelated stories: how information lost its body, that is, how it was conceptualized as an entity that can flow between substrates but is not identical with its material bases; how the cyborg emerged as a technological and cultural construction in the post-World War II period; and the transformation from the human to the posthuman. All three stories are relevant to seeing an email message and not knowing if it was human or machine-generated. For now, however, let me concentrate on the transformation from the human to the posthuman. Recent research programs in computer science, cognitive sciences, artificial life and artificial intelligence have argued for a view of the human so different from that which emerged from the Enlightenment that it can appropriately be called "posthuman." Whereas the human has traditionally been associated with consciousness, rationality, free will, autonomous agency, and the right of the subject to possess himself, the posthuman sees human behavior as the result of a number of autonomous agents running their programs more or less independently of one another. Complex behavior in this view is an emergent property that arises when these programs, each fairly simple in itself, begin reacting with one another. Consciousness, long regarded as the seat of identity, in this model is relegated to an "epiphenomenon." Agency still exists, but it is distributed and largely unconscious, or at least a-conscious. The effect of these changed views is to envision the human in terms that make it much more like an intelligent machine, which allows the human to be more easily spliced into distributed cognitive systems where part of the intelligence resides in the human, part in a variety of intelligent machines, and part in the interfaces through which they interact. At the same time, intelligent agent programs are being developed using "emotional computing" techniques that allow these artificial systems to respond to unexpected situations in ways that more closely resemble human responses. The upshot, then, is that both artificial and human intelligences are being reconceptualized in ways that facilitate their interactions with one another. Although I have written this summary, it could easily have been produced by such a system as the "Amalthaea" intelligent agent system being developed at the MIT Media Lab by Patti Maes and Alexandros Moukos. Are you sure I did write this message?" From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Jan 4 14:55:07 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8743B56F7A; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:55:06 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from hot.burningchrome.com (cust-216-9-146-10.bton.kiva.net [216.9.146.10]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFF556F78 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (cdent@localhost) by hot.burningchrome.com (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g04N8wM18560 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:08:58 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 18:08:58 -0500 (EST) From: To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] tool oriented approach to augmentation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org For a final project last semester I was to write a short paper somehow related to human computer interaction. In the early days of that class I was struck by Suchman's discussion of idea that people view the computer as an interactive device, one that is often perceived as having intention. I didn't like this notion at all so spent the rest of the semester trying to create an alternate view. This paper is part of the result. It is available here: The Computer as Tool From Interaction to Augmentation http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/slis/l542/useTools.htm I'd appreciate any feedback people may have. People may find it relevant to the topics discussed on this list. I should warn you that it is very compressed. There's a great deal of stuff that could have gone into the paper that was left out for space purposes and it was rather hastily put together. I mention Engelbart in only one sentence while it would have been possible to use some of his work support much of the paper. -- Chris Dent http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/ From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Jan 4 16:13:25 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E9DDF56F79; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:13:24 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from vulcan.amcom.net (vulcan.amcom.net [12.44.113.11]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B8F56F78 for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from minerva ([192.168.32.199]) by vulcan.amcom.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61056U1000L100S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:26:56 -0800 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: "Ba-Unrev-Talk" Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Another OHS group Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:27:22 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1953C.B006DA20" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1953C.B006DA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I assume that others must know about this group, but I thought I would pass it along anyway. Open Hypermedia Systems Working Group - OHSWG WWW site -- http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/ohs/ Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson dynalt@dynalt.com ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1953C.B006DA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I assume that others must know about this = group, but I thought I would pass it along anyway.

Open Hypermedia Systems Working Group - = OHSWG WWW site -- http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/ohs/ <= /p>

Thanks,

Garold (Gary) L. = Johnson
dynalt@dynalt.com <= /p>

 

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C1953C.B006DA20-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Jan 5 08:21:37 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8259E56F79; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:21:36 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440A356F78 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:21:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st239.cwo.com [208.186.39.249]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g05GYvGq028154 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:35:28 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020105083030.024cf920@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 08:32:40 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Knowledge Networks for augmenting creativity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.sristi.org/papers/A7.htm "The developmental theory has got stuck in the last one decade after reaching the limits of various models tried in different parts of the world. And yet, never before, the pluralism was so high in search of solutions. A large variety of civil society initiatives are being taken in north and south to try various models of agricultural and rural development regardless of ideological boundaries. Despite this positive trend, some gaps have remained. I discuss ten gaps in developmental processes that Knowledge Centre/Network approach tries to overcome in part one of the paper. In part two, I describe the heuristics of innovations in the context of local knowledge systems. The recent experience of Honey Bee network, SRISTI and GIAN is discussed in Part Three in the context to erosion and other threats to local diversity, creativity and knowledge systems. These initiatives aim to build upon what poor people are rich in, i.e. their knowledge systems and creative spirit. Finally I summarize my arguments and suggest that agricultural economists move beyond finding out what went wrong, where and why and get involved in building new participatory institutions and knowledge networks for generating developmental alternatives." More such papers can be found at http://www.sristi.org/pub.html About http://www.sristi.org/ "SRISTI is a non-governmental organisation setup to strengthen the creativity of grassroots inventors, innovators and ecopreneurs engaged in conserving biodiversity and developing eco-friendly solutions to local problems. Here, on the web site of SRISTI, you can read about its activities and participate in them, download its newsletter and research papers and much more" From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Jan 5 08:39:17 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9EA4256F79; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:39:16 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BCAD56F78 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:39:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st239.cwo.com [208.186.39.249]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g05Gr7Gq030248 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 08:53:08 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020105085027.00b25f00@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 08:50:58 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] ThinkCycle.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.thinkcycle.org/home "The Internet allows us to link millions of people worldwide and solve computationally intensive problems by using spare processor cycles of thousands of computers (e.g., distributed.net or SETI@home). Could one develop an analogous method of using the creative thinkcycles of people everywhere to work on global design challenges? ThinkCycle is an academic, non-profit initiative engaged in developing novel approaches, tools and resources for design challenges related to underserved communities and the environment. ThinkCycle seeks to create a culture of open-source design innovation, with ongoing collaboration among individuals and organizations across industrialized, developing and indigenous communities. Join us and make a difference! " From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Jan 5 17:35:15 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2A63A56F79; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 17:35:15 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from svpal.svpal.org (svpal.svpal.org [209.68.147.66]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB73A56F78 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 17:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from svpal.svpal.org (grantbow@localhost.svpal.org [127.0.0.1]) by svpal.svpal.org (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g061n4wV015458 for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 17:49:05 -0800 (PST) Received: (from grantbow@localhost) by svpal.svpal.org (8.12.1/8.12.1/Submit) id g061n4m1015457 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 5 Jan 2002 17:49:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 17:49:03 -0800 From: Grant Bowman To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Building Safe Online Communities For Kids Message-ID: <20020105174903.A15436@svpal.svpal.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.1.11i Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org The section on "What happens if you get it right?" is fantastic. http://www.onlinecommunityreport.com/features/rettstatt -- -- Grant Bowman From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Jan 6 13:33:41 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EF5AB56F78; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:33:40 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk (mail4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9E4F56F78; Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:33:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-1075.cubone.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.103.51] helo=vaio) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16NL8e-00024l-00; Sun, 06 Jan 2002 21:47:32 +0000 Message-ID: <001501c196fb$acb6bfa0$336787d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: , Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] GSIX v0.40 just released! Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:46:56 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Now EVEN SHORTER! http://www.concept67.fsnet.co.uk/gsix/ Comments welcomed. Cheers, -- Peter ppj@concept67.fsnet.co.uk From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 9 11:08:48 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EF62056F84; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:08:47 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail1.svr.pol.co.uk (mail1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10BA956F79 for ; Wed, 9 Jan 2002 11:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-1043.duckdive.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.173.19] helo=vaio) by mail1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16OOJ9-0008JG-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:22:43 +0000 Message-ID: <007c01c19942$efa2ce00$2d3d87d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Increase in Internet Borders Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 19:22:09 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org (Sourced from FindLaw.com newsletter) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59227-2002Jan3.html "It is the modern-day equivalent of a border sentry. When visitors try to enter UKBetting.com, a computer program checks their identification to determine where they're dialing in from. Most people are waved on through. Those from the United States, China, Italy and other countries where gambling laws are muddy, however, are flashed a sign in red letters that says "ACCESS DENIED" and are locked out of the Web site. "For much of its life, the Internet has been seen as a great democratizing force, a place where nobody needs know who or where you are. But that notion has begun to shift in recent months, as governments and private businesses increasingly try to draw boundaries around what used to be a borderless Internet to deal with legal, commercial and terrorism concerns." -- Peter From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jan 10 08:04:07 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1875456FCF; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:04:07 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9774556F79 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:04:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st180.cwo.com [208.186.39.190]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0AGI2Gq030138 for ; Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:18:03 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020110080631.024556c0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:14:57 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Evolution, cooperation, and P2P Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org What I just found at slashDot goes like this: ": "Some Swiss economists ran an investment game... they found that if the majority could punish freeloaders, cooperation flourished. I think this has implications for cooperative peer-to-peer systems and, to a lesser extent, for open source development. I'm so inspired I plan to go out an punish someone right now, as a matter of fact." I had just read this article the other day (go memepool), so this Nature piece seems oddly apropos." Following the links, one gets the following two hits, which, I think, offer some useful insights. http://www.thegamesjournal.com/articles/Aggression.shtml Aggression in multi-player games "Imagine that you're playing a game of Settlers and you are the first player. You roll a seven, where do you place the robber? A couple of months ago several members of the Spielfrieks discussion group argued that it was insanity to not use every opportunity to use the robber to handicap opponents and steal their resources even at the start of the game. At the early stages of the game I disagree. Here's why:" http://www.nature.com/nsu/020107/020107-6.html "Cooperation can flourish if the public-spirited majority can punish freeloaders, say Swiss economists. People will pay to punish - suggesting that their notions of fairness outweigh selfish considerations. The work may help explain why people cooperate in society. In an investment game with shared profits, players punish those who do not contribute to the group's good, despite the personal cost. The emotional satisfaction of dispensing justice seems to spur them on: "People say, 'I like to punish'," says Ernst Fehr of the University of Zurich. The fear of being fined keeps potential defectors in line, and the power to punish gives willing cooperators a sense of security. These dynamics may explain why early humans banded together into cooperative groups for hunting or warfare. " I would like to suggest comparing these outcomes to the discussion in the book _Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the 21st Century_ by Howard Bloom, a book that I am perhaps a third of the way through now. Bloom argues that, in evolution, *individual selection*, as advocated by neo Darwinists today, is wrong, and that *group selection* is more strongly evidenced in the record. And why, you might ask, do I mention this here? Simply because the entire OHS/DKR thesis is predicated on evolutionary thinking; evolution of both the capabilities of collections of humans, and of the software infrastructure to support those enhanced capabilities. The more points of view we can access while thinking through OHS/DKR projects, the higher, I think, our chances of measurable success (whatever that means). Jack From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Jan 12 11:15:37 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5744A56F7A; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:15:37 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.174]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B77956F79 for ; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:15:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-460.stoked.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.189.204] helo=vaio) by cmailg4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16PTqN-0001IV-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 12 Jan 2002 19:29:32 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c19b9f$62379640$ccbd193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <4.2.2.20020110080631.024556c0@thinkalong.com> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Evolution, cooperation, and P2P Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 19:28:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org But these are economists talking about what effectively simplified market economies. Are you suggesting that the open source or open knowledge movements are no different then? Also, I'm strongly in favour of judicial independence. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Park" To: Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 4:14 PM Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Evolution, cooperation, and P2P > What I just found at slashDot goes like this: > ": "Some Swiss economists ran an investment game... they found that if the > majority could punish freeloaders, cooperation flourished. I think this has > implications for cooperative peer-to-peer systems and, to a lesser extent, > for open source development. I'm so inspired I plan to go out an punish > someone right now, as a matter of fact." I had just read this article the > other day (go memepool), so this Nature piece seems oddly apropos." > > Following the links, one gets the following two hits, which, I think, offer > some useful insights. > > > http://www.thegamesjournal.com/articles/Aggression.shtml Aggression in > multi-player games > "Imagine that you're playing a game of Settlers and you are the first > player. You roll a seven, where do you place the robber? > A couple of months ago several members of the Spielfrieks discussion group > argued that it was insanity to not use every opportunity to use the robber > to handicap opponents and steal their resources even at the start of the game. > At the early stages of the game I disagree. Here's why:" > > > http://www.nature.com/nsu/020107/020107-6.html > "Cooperation can flourish if the public-spirited majority can punish > freeloaders, say Swiss economists. People will pay to punish - suggesting > that their notions of fairness outweigh selfish considerations. The work > may help explain why people cooperate in society. > In an investment game with shared profits, players punish those who do not > contribute to the group's good, despite the personal cost. The emotional > satisfaction of dispensing justice seems to spur them on: "People say, 'I > like to punish'," says Ernst Fehr of the University of Zurich. > The fear of being fined keeps potential defectors in line, and the power to > punish gives willing cooperators a sense of security. These dynamics may > explain why early humans banded together into cooperative groups for > hunting or warfare. " > > I would like to suggest comparing these outcomes to the discussion in the > book _Global Brain: The Evolution of Mass Mind from the Big Bang to the > 21st Century_ by Howard Bloom, a book that I am perhaps a third of the way > through now. Bloom argues that, in evolution, *individual selection*, as > advocated by neo Darwinists today, is wrong, and that *group selection* is > more strongly evidenced in the record. > > And why, you might ask, do I mention this here? Simply because the entire > OHS/DKR thesis is predicated on evolutionary thinking; evolution of both > the capabilities of collections of humans, and of the software > infrastructure to support those enhanced capabilities. The more points of > view we can access while thinking through OHS/DKR projects, the higher, I > think, our chances of measurable success (whatever that means). > > Jack > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Jan 13 19:30:59 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E80DF56F79; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:30:58 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F58756F78 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:30:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st217.cwo.com [208.186.39.227]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0E3iw7Q019418 for ; Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:44:59 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020113194053.023b0ef0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:42:42 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Website based on Sagan's Cosmos Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.onecosmos.net/ "Consider for a moment that 500,000 days ago, nearly all human beings lived in huts and caves, using fire, wood, and stone to fashion daily living. Today many people still do, but the privileged among us can explore the planet, flying through the atmosphere above the continents watching live TV with e-commerce piped to individual reclining seats. Human beings can vacation on the ocean in ships the size of towns, some soon to have their own zip code, or race over the surface of the land in precision machines manufactured by the millions each year, all able to be guided by satellites orbiting the planet powered by light from the sun. We have used our knowledge to send living humans to the nearest Cosmic shore, safely cocooned in portable atmospheres, televise the landing of their space canoe for the world's eyes to witness live, and we brought these bravest of explorers back to their homes safely, just 30 years ago. How humbling it was to see our blue-green Cosmic reef from above, for the first time. We now stand in awe of images of the births and deaths of stars and galaxies, brought from Hubble's telescopic eye to us through the wafer-thin computer screens made possible by the semiconductor. Over a period of just a few thousand days, we have deployed a communications network around the globe, for all people and machines to use to communicate with each other, reinventing economics, culture, governance, and education. Soon, the sum total of recorded knowledge can be explored through a portal in the palm of a child's hand, an untethered device that will speak and understand spoken words. And in the view of many, the most remarkable wonders science has presented to us across history appear to point to others yet more humbling waiting in the wings. They seem hinged to a revolution of human spirit and ethics equally profound, lest we repeat the mistakes of the last Renaissance in a quest for someone else's New World. The challenges facing civilization are as profound as our opportunities. We are running out of fuels, pure water, space to live, clean air to breathe, and natural life to enjoy naturally. Forests continue to disappear, animals on land and in the sea are going extinct, weather patterns are shifting, ancient cultures are vanishing, and people in cities are losing touch with Nature. Our worst crises require our best solutions, and pioneering the best solutions to these historic challenges, and doing so in the right way, is what the Motion Sciences Organization is chartered to do. " Sound familiar? From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Jan 14 10:45:15 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4027F56F79; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:45:15 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail11.svr.pol.co.uk (mail11.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.23]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D12856F78 for ; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:45:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-1026.clefairy.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.93.2] helo=vaio) by mail11.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16QCKB-0005gF-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:59:15 +0000 Message-ID: <002301c19d2d$7ae37260$025d87d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <4.2.2.20020113194053.023b0ef0@thinkalong.com> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Website based on Sagan's Cosmos Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:58:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Familiar but with a different slant. On the Motion Sciences 'about' page: "Our Mission The people and partners of Motion Sciences are dedicated to: -the advancement of humanity's scientific and ethical appreciation of the physics of Nature, -the discovery of new technologies enabling clean and abundant energy generation, combustion-free transportation, and sustainable material infrastructure, -the wise use of resulting knowledge and tools for the egalitarian well-being of all life, -and to the guidance of all such missions by an Oath for Peaceful Use of Science. " Sounds good. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Park" To: Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:42 AM Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Website based on Sagan's Cosmos > http://www.onecosmos.net/ > > "Consider for a moment that 500,000 days ago, nearly all human beings lived > in huts and caves, using fire, wood, and stone to fashion daily living. > Today many people still do, but the privileged among us can explore the > planet, flying through the atmosphere above the continents watching live TV > with e-commerce piped to individual reclining seats. Human beings can > vacation on the ocean in ships the size of towns, some soon to have their > own zip code, or race over the surface of the land in precision machines > manufactured by the millions each year, all able to be guided by satellites > orbiting the planet powered by light from the sun. We have used our > knowledge to send living humans to the nearest Cosmic shore, safely > cocooned in portable atmospheres, televise the landing of their space canoe > for the world's eyes to witness live, and we brought these bravest of > explorers back to their homes safely, just 30 years ago. How humbling it > was to see our blue-green Cosmic reef from above, for the first time. > We now stand in awe of images of the births and deaths of stars and > galaxies, brought from Hubble's telescopic eye to us through the wafer-thin > computer screens made possible by the semiconductor. Over a period of just > a few thousand days, we have deployed a communications network around the > globe, for all people and machines to use to communicate with each other, > reinventing economics, culture, governance, and education. Soon, the sum > total of recorded knowledge can be explored through a portal in the palm of > a child's hand, an untethered device that will speak and understand spoken > words. > And in the view of many, the most remarkable wonders science has presented > to us across history appear to point to others yet more humbling waiting in > the wings. They seem hinged to a revolution of human spirit and ethics > equally profound, lest we repeat the mistakes of the last Renaissance in a > quest for someone else's New World. > The challenges facing civilization are as profound as our opportunities. We > are running out of fuels, pure water, space to live, clean air to breathe, > and natural life to enjoy naturally. Forests continue to disappear, animals > on land and in the sea are going extinct, weather patterns are shifting, > ancient cultures are vanishing, and people in cities are losing touch with > Nature. > Our worst crises require our best solutions, and pioneering the best > solutions to these historic challenges, and doing so in the right way, is > what the Motion Sciences Organization is chartered to do. " > > Sound familiar? > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jan 15 18:26:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4740B56F79; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:26:43 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2AF456F78 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st76.cwo.com [208.186.39.86]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0G2ejJQ002348 for ; Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:40:46 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020115183605.0236f150@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:37:49 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory of collective intelligence Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.mikro.org/Events/OS/wos2/Levy-pp/liensIC.html This link was posted by Pierre L=E9vy to the global brain list. This is a huge list of links of all sorts, covering great thinkers,=20 community design, collective intelligence, and so on. Enjoy Jack From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 16 03:13:17 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 44FC256F79; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 03:13:17 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts12.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.56]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3C6056F78 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 03:13:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.164]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20020116112720.MUGM103.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:27:20 -0500 Message-ID: <3C4563D7.760D060@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:28:23 -0500 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory of collective intelligence References: <4.2.2.20020115183605.0236f150@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Jack. Wow. Impressive and obviously most useful. This is the kind of thing we need to get digested. How shall we do that? How, next, shall we make good use of it for the solving of world problems? I guess my questions bear kinship to Rod Welch's advocacy of turning info into knowledge. A point raised by Thomas Homer-Dixon in his "The Ingenuity Gap," the increasing time and effort we need put in organizing info robs us from time to think creatively toward solving problems. Expect an Engelbart-oriented review of the book soon in Fleabyte. Henry Jack Park wrote: > http://www.mikro.org/Events/OS/wos2/Levy-pp/liensIC.html > > This link was posted by Pierre Lévy to the global brain list. > > This is a huge list of links of all sorts, covering great thinkers, > community design, collective intelligence, and so on. > > Enjoy > Jack From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 16 03:42:06 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8B34356F79; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 03:42:05 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from thor.cserveandina.net (unknown [200.30.30.2]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1CE56F78 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 03:42:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from guillermo ([200.75.98.205]) by thor.cserveandina.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-65386U1000L100S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:56:30 -0400 Message-ID: <001c01c19e84$c6b49680$cd624bc8@guillermo> From: guillermo@cerceau.com (Guillermo Cerceau) To: References: <4.2.2.20020115183605.0236f150@thinkalong.com> <3C4563D7.760D060@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory of collective intelligence Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:56:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thank you Jack for collecting all these links. I agree with Henry´s quote that "the increasing time and effort we need put in organizing info robs us from time to think creatively toward solving problems" and I think that therefore tools (not only technological, but conceptual) well beyond existing ones are nedded to "use of it for the solving of world problems", and not just for erudition purposes. There is a very fine discussion going onhere! Guillermo Cerceau www.ocean-ven.com www.cerceau.com\guillermo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry K van Eyken" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory of collective intelligence > Jack. > > Wow. Impressive and obviously most useful. This is the kind of thing we > need to get digested. How shall we do that? How, next, shall we make > good use of it for the solving of world problems? > > I guess my questions bear kinship to Rod Welch's advocacy of turning > info into knowledge. > > A point raised by Thomas Homer-Dixon in his "The Ingenuity Gap," the > increasing time and effort we need put in organizing info robs us from > time to think creatively toward solving problems. Expect an > Engelbart-oriented review of the book soon in Fleabyte. > > Henry > > > Jack Park wrote: > > > http://www.mikro.org/Events/OS/wos2/Levy-pp/liensIC.html > > > > This link was posted by Pierre Lévy to the global brain list. > > > > This is a huge list of links of all sorts, covering great thinkers, > > community design, collective intelligence, and so on. > > > > Enjoy > > Jack > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 16 06:45:35 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id F10BE56F79; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:45:34 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C4E56F78 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:45:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st144.cwo.com [208.186.39.154]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0GExaSx022176 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:59:38 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020116065439.0237c430@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:55:27 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory of collective intelligence In-Reply-To: <3C4563D7.760D060@sympatico.ca> References: <4.2.2.20020115183605.0236f150@thinkalong.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Parker Rossman just made update comments on that page, as follows: From: "Parker Rossman" Thanks to Pierre Levy for that monumental list of collective intelligence web pages... However, my web page address should be corrected to; http://ecolecon.missouri.edu/crisisresearch. I am writing there on the future of higher education, research on research and how to provide adequate education to everyone on earth. Five more chapters will be added in a week or so, and this online book --free to anyone in the world -- is to be regularly updated. We especially want to add web pages..so thank you, Pierre, thank you, thank you. At 06:28 AM 1/16/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Jack. > >Wow. Impressive and obviously most useful. This is the kind of thing we >need to get digested. How shall we do that? How, next, shall we make >good use of it for the solving of world problems? > >I guess my questions bear kinship to Rod Welch's advocacy of turning >info into knowledge. > >A point raised by Thomas Homer-Dixon in his "The Ingenuity Gap," the >increasing time and effort we need put in organizing info robs us from >time to think creatively toward solving problems. Expect an >Engelbart-oriented review of the book soon in Fleabyte. > >Henry > > >Jack Park wrote: > > > http://www.mikro.org/Events/OS/wos2/Levy-pp/liensIC.html > > > > This link was posted by Pierre L=E9vy to the global brain list. > > > > This is a huge list of links of all sorts, covering great thinkers, > > community design, collective intelligence, and so on. > > > > Enjoy > > Jack From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 16 06:49:29 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6AA6C56F79; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:49:29 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1805D56F78 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:49:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st144.cwo.com [208.186.39.154]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0GF3VSx022683 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:03:32 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020116065742.02374dc0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 06:59:26 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory of collective intelligence In-Reply-To: <001c01c19e84$c6b49680$cd624bc8@guillermo> References: <4.2.2.20020115183605.0236f150@thinkalong.com> <3C4563D7.760D060@sympatico.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wait a minute! I didn't collect those links. I just forwarded to this list a post I got=20 from the global brain list. Those links were created by Pierre Levy. Yes. I believe those links form the roots of a very appropriate discussion= =20 here and at fleabyte.org. Cheers Jack At 07:56 AM 1/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Thank you Jack for collecting all these links. >I agree with Henry=B4s quote that "the >increasing time and effort we need put in organizing info robs us from >time to think creatively toward solving problems" and I think that= therefore >tools (not only technological, but conceptual) well beyond existing ones= are >nedded >to "use of it for the solving of world problems", and not just for= erudition >purposes. >There is a very fine discussion going onhere! > >Guillermo Cerceau >www.ocean-ven.com >www.cerceau.com\guillermo > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Henry K van Eyken" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 7:28 AM >Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory of collective >intelligence > > > > Jack. > > > > Wow. Impressive and obviously most useful. This is the kind of thing we > > need to get digested. How shall we do that? How, next, shall we make > > good use of it for the solving of world problems? > > > > I guess my questions bear kinship to Rod Welch's advocacy of turning > > info into knowledge. > > > > A point raised by Thomas Homer-Dixon in his "The Ingenuity Gap," the > > increasing time and effort we need put in organizing info robs us from > > time to think creatively toward solving problems. Expect an > > Engelbart-oriented review of the book soon in Fleabyte. > > > > Henry > > > > > > Jack Park wrote: > > > > > http://www.mikro.org/Events/OS/wos2/Levy-pp/liensIC.html > > > > > > This link was posted by Pierre L=E9vy to the global brain list. > > > > > > This is a huge list of links of all sorts, covering great thinkers, > > > community design, collective intelligence, and so on. > > > > > > Enjoy > > > Jack > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 16 13:14:14 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6967256F7A; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:14:14 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.4]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E663756F79 for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:14:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.164.47]) by tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20020116212818.YVGT22000.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:28:18 -0500 Message-ID: <3C45F0B0.659FC42C@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:29:20 -0500 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory ofcollective intelligence References: <4.2.2.20020115183605.0236f150@thinkalong.com> <3C4563D7.760D060@sympatico.ca> <4.2.2.20020116065742.02374dc0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Of course, they are valuable, Jack. They address the concerns we share. Henry BTW, Parker Rossman site does not seem to exist. Not even the WaybackMachine found it. Jack Park wrote: > Wait a minute! > I didn't collect those links. I just forwarded to this list a post I got > from the global brain list. Those links were created by Pierre Levy. > > Yes. I believe those links form the roots of a very appropriate discussion > here and at fleabyte.org. > > Cheers > Jack > &c. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jan 23 07:21:24 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E025056F78; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 07:21:23 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9132A56F78; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 07:21:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st53.cwo.com [208.186.39.63]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0NFZUjf018566; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 07:35:32 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020123072658.0242b710@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 07:31:34 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Tunney Act and the Microsoft case Cc: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org, PORT-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_89453961==_.ALT" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --=====================_89453961==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got this link from slashdot.org this morning. http://www.codeweavers.com/~jwhite/tunney.html The issue is that the Tunney Act says there is a window for comment about=20 the case and that window is about to close. According to comments at=20 slashdot, either folks start commenting, or MS will have an easy ride. I plan to take enough time to suggest that the file specifications for all= =20 MS products be made public domain and always updated. It's my thought that= =20 the ability to duplicate files made by MS products is the proper way to to= =20 break the stranglehold, given that this would allow competitive products to= =20 safely claim MS compatibility. Here are the suggestions from the page above: The easy way to do the 'right' thing Open an email window to microsoft.atr@usdoj.gov (with a subject of=20 'Microsoft Settlement'). Read through some of the many comprehensive resources on this case and the= =20 Tunney Act proceedings: =B7 =B7 Dan Kegel's excellent collection of resources (mirror is= =20 =B7 here). Pick your favorite problem with the proposed judgement. One is fine;=20 hopefully a lot of people will be doing this. Compose a simple, polite, email describing the problem and how you feel=20 about it. Send the email, and if you like, bcc (important do not cc) us at=20 tunney@codeweavers.com. [Optional, but nice] Print your letter out (maybe reformat it a little),=20 and mail it to: Renata B. Hesse Antitrust Division U.S. Department of Justice 601 D Street NW Suite 1200 Washington, DC 20530-0001 The truly easy way to at least add your voice Send email to microsoft.atr@usdoj.gov (with a subject of 'Microsoft=20 Settlement') saying that you think the proposed settlement is bad idea=20 (type only 3 words, if you must). What counts is the number of complaints. Send email to petition@kegel.com indicating that you will stand as a co=20 signer of Dan Kegel's comments. Please give your city, state, title, and=20 affiliation. Send it now. The comment period closes Monday morning (the 28th). By the time you think to come back to this page, it will be too late. --=====================_89453961==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Got this link from slashdot.org this morning.
http://www.codeweavers.com/~jwhite/tunney.html
The issue is that the Tunney Act says there is a window for comment about the case and that window is about to close.  According to comments at slashdot, either folks start commenting, or MS will have an easy ride.

I plan to take enough time to suggest that the file specifications for all MS products be made public domain and always updated.  It's my thought that the ability to duplicate files made by MS products is the proper way to to break the stranglehold, given that this would allow competitive products to safely claim MS compatibility.

Here are the suggestions from the page above:

The easy way to do the 'right' thing
Open an email window to microsoft.atr@usdoj.gov (with a subject of 'Microsoft Settlement').=20
Read through some of the many comprehensive resources on this case and the Tunney Act proceedings:
=B7       =B7&= nbsp;      Dan Kegel's excellent collection of resources (mirror is =B7      here).=20
Pick your favorite problem with the proposed judgement. One is fine; hopefully a lot of people will be doing this.=20
Compose a simple, polite, email describing the problem and how you feel about it.=20
Send the email, and if you like, bcc (important do not cc) us at tunney@codeweavers.com.=20
[Optional, but nice] Print your letter out (maybe reformat it a little), and mail it to:

Renata B. Hesse=20
Antitrust Division=20
U.S. Department of Justice=20
601 D Street NW=20
Suite 1200=20
Washington, DC 20530-0001
The truly easy way to at least add your voice
Send email to microsoft.atr@usdoj.gov (with a subject of 'Microsoft Settlement') saying that you think the proposed settlement is bad idea (type only 3 words, if you must). What counts is the number of complaints.=20
Send email to petition@kegel.com indicating that you will stand as a co signer of Dan Kegel's comments. Please give your= city, state, title, and affiliation.
Send it now.=20
The comment period closes Monday morning (the 28th).=20
By the time you think to come back to this page, it will be too late.=
--=====================_89453961==_.ALT-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Jan 26 09:31:15 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id CD9B256F79; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:31:14 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from vulcan.amcom.net (vulcan.amcom.net [12.44.113.11]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64AB456F78 for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:31:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from minerva ([192.168.32.199]) by vulcan.amcom.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-61056U1000L100S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:45:13 -0800 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory of collective intelligence Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:45:18 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020116065439.0237c430@thinkalong.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Jack, Thanks for the pointer to these links. The Parker Rossman link fails, but this leads to the online book: http://ecolecon.missouri.edu/globalresearch/index.html Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Jack Park Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 6:55 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Links on the practice and theory of collective intelligence Parker Rossman just made update comments on that page, as follows: From: "Parker Rossman" Thanks to Pierre Levy for that monumental list of collective intelligence web pages... However, my web page address should be corrected to; http://ecolecon.missouri.edu/crisisresearch. I am writing there on the future of higher education, research on research and how to provide adequate education to everyone on earth. Five more chapters will be added in a week or so, and this online book --free to anyone in the world -- is to be regularly updated. We especially want to add web pages..so thank you, Pierre, thank you, thank you. At 06:28 AM 1/16/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Jack. > >Wow. Impressive and obviously most useful. This is the kind of thing we >need to get digested. How shall we do that? How, next, shall we make >good use of it for the solving of world problems? > >I guess my questions bear kinship to Rod Welch's advocacy of turning >info into knowledge. > >A point raised by Thomas Homer-Dixon in his "The Ingenuity Gap," the >increasing time and effort we need put in organizing info robs us from >time to think creatively toward solving problems. Expect an >Engelbart-oriented review of the book soon in Fleabyte. > >Henry > > >Jack Park wrote: > > > http://www.mikro.org/Events/OS/wos2/Levy-pp/liensIC.html > > > > This link was posted by Pierre Lévy to the global brain list. > > > > This is a huge list of links of all sorts, covering great thinkers, > > community design, collective intelligence, and so on. > > > > Enjoy > > Jack From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jan 29 06:59:49 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7F7EB56F7A; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:59:48 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC3FB56F79 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 06:59:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st229.cwo.com [208.186.39.239]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g0TFE3dO005530 for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:14:04 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020129071043.023f5ef0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 07:11:52 -0800 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Virtual World grows real economy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991847 "A computer game played by thousands of enthusiasts over the Internet has spawned an economy with a per-capita income comparable to that of a small country, according to new research by a US economist. The online fantasy game EverQuest lets players create and control characters - or avatars - within a fantasy world called Norrath. Characters gain skills and possessions that they can then trade with other players using the game's currency of "platinum pieces". However, many EverQuest players have found this process too complicated and have instead opted to sell their assets for real money though trading web sites such as eBay. Edward Castronova, of the economics department at California State University at Fullerton, studied thousands of EverQuest transactions performed through eBay to determine the real-world economic value generated by the inhabitants of Norrath. Castronova discovered that Norrath's gross national product per-capita is $2,266. If Norrath was a country, it would be the 77th most wealthy in the world, just behind Russia. " From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jan 29 15:41:02 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8633756F7D; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:41:01 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts5.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.25]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F0B556F7C for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:41:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.102]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20020129235517.ZJIZ3155.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:55:17 -0500 Message-ID: <3C57366C.95E9A4A8@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:55:24 -0500 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Augment and "The Ingenuity Gap" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org You may be interested in a review of Homer-Dixon's book, "The Ingenuity Gap": http//www.fleabyte.org/eic-6.html It is a bit biased with Doug's work on the reviewer's mind. Henry From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jan 29 15:43:52 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1A70C56F7D; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:43:52 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts5.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.25]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5A4956F7C for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:43:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.102]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.16 201-229-121-116-20010115) with ESMTP id <20020129235808.ZLOL3155.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:58:08 -0500 Message-ID: <3C573716.61077EA6@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 18:58:14 -0500 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Augment and "The Ingenuity Gap" References: <3C57366C.95E9A4A8@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Correction: http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-6.html Henry Henry K van Eyken wrote: > You may be interested in a review of Homer-Dixon's book, "The Ingenuity > Gap": > > http//www.fleabyte.org/eic-6.html > > It is a bit biased with Doug's work on the reviewer's mind. > > Henry From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jan 31 04:43:55 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2A7C356F79; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:43:55 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from newman2.bestweb.net (newman2.bestweb.net [209.94.102.67]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F5C056F78 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 04:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from kurtz-fernhout.com (dialin-95-tnt.nyc.bestweb.net [216.179.1.95]) by newman2.bestweb.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4722F23128 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 07:59:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3C59401F.871FB811@kurtz-fernhout.com> Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:01:19 -0500 From: Paul Fernhout Organization: Kurtz-Fernhout Software X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] DIAC-02 Conference on infrastructure and values Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I was just pointed at this conference site and though it would be of interest to people this list. It's in Seattle, WA May 16-19, 2002. The conference discusses the relationship of human values and information infrastructure. I raised a related issue here on the UnreII list (bootstrapping towards what end?) a year ago: http://www.bootstrap.org/dkr/discussion/2168.html >From the DIAC-02 Conference page: http://www.cpsr.org/conferences/diac02/index.html Tomorrow's information and communication infrastructure is being shaped today... But by whom and to what ends? Researchers, community workers, social activists, educators and students, journalists, artists, policy-makers, and citizens are all concerned about the shape that this new infrastructure will take. Will it meet the needs of all people? Will it help the citizenry address current and future issues? Will it promote democracy, social justice, sustainability? Will the appropriate research be conducted? Will equitable policies be enacted? Symposium Aims A "public sphere" where people learn about, discuss, and deliberate over important issues such as increasing economic disparity, militarization, environmental degradation, racism or sexism is critical to our future. At the same time, giant media conglomerates and computer companies are rapidly increasing their control of the information and communication infrastructure upon which this public sphere depends. Governments, too are often part of this problem: instead of promoting access and two-way access to this infrastructure they actively or passively discourage civic sector uses. Civic society is fighting back in a million ways. The opportunities and threats offered by a global "network society" are too great to be ignored. The "Shaping the Network Society" symposium is designed to aid in these efforts by providing a forum and a platform for these critical issues. And through the use of "patterns" we hope that this symposium will help inject organization, motivation, and inspiration into the evolution of an information and communication infrastructure that truly meets today's urgent needs. Please join us in Seattle (and beyond) in May 2002 for this exciting and important event! DIAC-02 This event will be the eighth bi-annual "Directions and Implications of Advanced Computing" (DIAC) symposium. A variety of events are planned ranging from invited speakers, panel discussions, and pattern presentations to numerous opportunities for informal working sessions -- both planned and spontaneous -- on various topics. Pattern Orientation The focus of this symposium will be on "patterns" that people can use to help them develop and use communication and information technology in ways that affirms human values. -Paul Fernhout Kurtz-Fernhout Software ========================================================= Developers of custom software and educational simulations Creators of the Garden with Insight(TM) garden simulator http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jan 31 11:37:30 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9642556F79; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:37:29 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail12.svr.pol.co.uk (mail12.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.215]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 852FD56F78 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:37:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-164.stoked.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.188.164] helo=vaio) by mail12.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 16WNFL-00078T-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:51:47 +0000 Message-ID: <001801c1aa90$9dc60f20$a4bc193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <4.2.2.20020129071043.023f5ef0@thinkalong.com> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Virtual World grows real economy Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 19:43:58 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Just musing: It is a shame all those fantasy world spare competitive mental cycles couldn't be harnessed for solving real wicked problems. Maybe you could just trick folks into thinking they were playing a fantasy game when in fact they were solving world poverty? Something else: This might sound like a platitude, but perhaps wicked problems don't get solved easily because there isn't a large enough mass of participants competing for a big enough (individual winner) prize. That is, you need both the critical mass of intellectual input and sufficient individual incentive to make it work. And also, perhaps the framework or rubric within which the 'competition' is supported *needs* to support any time, any way, contribution so that players can contribute with an individual strategy but the whole gets augmented as a result of play no matter what. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Park" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 3:11 PM Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Virtual World grows real economy > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991847 > "A computer game played by thousands of enthusiasts over the Internet has > spawned an economy with a per-capita income comparable to that of a small > country, according to new research by a US economist. > The online fantasy game EverQuest lets players create and control > characters - or avatars - within a fantasy world called Norrath. Characters > gain skills and possessions that they can then trade with other players > using the game's currency of "platinum pieces". However, many EverQuest > players have found this process too complicated and have instead opted to > sell their assets for real money though trading web sites such as eBay. > Edward Castronova, of the economics department at California State > University at Fullerton, studied thousands of EverQuest transactions > performed through eBay to determine the real-world economic value generated > by the inhabitants of Norrath. > Castronova discovered that Norrath's gross national product per-capita is > $2,266. If Norrath was a country, it would be the 77th most wealthy in the > world, just behind Russia. " > >