From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 1 07:02:05 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 790F256FFD; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 07:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DFBDE56FF2 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 07:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020901141956.VKUB13899.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 14:19:56 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020901071644.025a5220@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 07:17:06 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [PORT-L] Virtual Harlem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: "John F. Sowa" >Subject: [PORT-L] Virtual Harlem > >In thinking about creative interfaces for interactive >and collaborative work, people have been discussing various >kinds of computer graphics. But the most compelling graphics >are not based on menus and icons, but on old fashioned geometry >and geography. The geo part should be stressed: people most >naturally relate to spatial relationships on good old planet earth. > >The project called Virtual Harlem has been recreating the Harlem >of the 1920s, when "African-American literature, art, music, dance, >and social commentary began to flourish in Harlem.... This >African-American cultural movement became known as The New Negro >Movement and later as the Harlem Renaissance." > >What's interesting about the project is the spatial organization, >which allows students to "walk" through the virtual space, to visit >significant landmarks, "walk" inside, and most importantly to hear >the music, "meet" and hear the famous people, and read their >writings. Following is the web site: > > http://www.computer.org/cga/homepage/2002/n5/g5061.htm > >A similar geographical organization is possible with many other >subjects, including, for example, the Peirce resources. Imagine >a virtual tour through the significant places where Peirce had >lived, visited, and written his manuscripts: his home and classrooms >at Harvard, the Smithsonian observatory, his travels for the U.S. >Coast and Geodetic Survey, his time at Johns Hopkins, his home >at Arisbe, his lectures at Cambridge, and his visits to friends >and colleagues around the world. > >The Harlem project is recreating a virtual environment, which >simulates the Harlem of the 1920s, but a great deal can be >accomplished without all the programming necessary for virtual >reality. A lot can be done with just pictures, postcards, and >occasional videos. (Unfortunately, the videos would have to be >made of the places as they are today, but many of them from his >time still exist.) > >In web site organized as a tour through space and time, the main >path would proceed year by year through Peirce's life with copious >illustrations of the places where he lived and visited and the people >he met and interacted with (both postively and negatively). Each >stop on the tour would include links to his writings, letters, and >lectures of that time and place. > >On a related issue, there's an article on CNN about electronic >books, which have not been well received. It turns out that >e-textbooks that are organized as interactive web sites are much >more successful and popular with students than ones that just >reproduce a printed text on a computer screen: > > http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/08/30/coolsc.ebooks/index.html > >A lesson to be learned is that computer screens cannot compete with >a printed text for readability, but they are much more useful for >supporting interactive multimedia combinations. A web site should >make all the texts available, but people who want to study them >would probably want to print them out. > >Of course, the same texts should also be cross-indexed and correlated >by theme, topic, etc. But the geographical tour could be a central >theme that leads the visitor into the subject. > >John Sowa --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 1 08:35:33 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BA94456FFD; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 08:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EE84456FF2 for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 08:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020901155322.JGCY11061.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@sony> for ; Sun, 1 Sep 2002 15:53:22 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020901084959.0271e260@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 08:50:33 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: World Summit on Sustainable Development (WSSD): 37 new items Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >Content update - World Summit on Sustainable Development (WSSD) on the >Development Gateway >------------------------- >37 new resources have been added to World Summit on Sustainable >Development (WSSD) on the Development Gateway >http://www.developmentgateway.org/wssd > >1. A New Villain in Free Trade: The Farmer on the Dole >2. Feminist International Radio Endeavour - FIRE- events at WSSD >3. ABANTU for Development >4. Biotechnology and Development Monitor >5. Summit opens with anti-poverty call (BBC News) >6. In pictures: Development Summit (BBC News photos) >7. Joburg Media Project - Independent Media Platform >8. USAID: World Summit on Sustainable Development >9. CIDA: World Summit on Sustainable Development >10. Sustainable Development Strategies: A Resource Book >11. National Strategies for Sustainable Development >12. The Earth Summit Gets Under Way - With 400 Issues Still To Be Resolved >13. WSSD Opening Address by South African President, Thabo Mbeki >14. Emerging Technologies can work for Africa only if the Climate is right >15. Resources collected by the International Finance Corporation related >to the WSSD >16. Resources on sustainable development compiled by Nature magazine >17. World Bank's View of Water at the WSSD >18. The African Development Bank Groups Approach to Sustainable Development >19. Ecological decline 'far worse' than official estimates, reports the >Guardian >20. China champions developing world at Earth Summit >21. Wise Coastal Practices for Sustainable Human Development Forum >22. Eco-Equity: WSSD Newsletter >23. UN's view of what needs to be done in agriculture to improve >sustainable development >24. We Can Do This Good Work Together by President Mbeki of South Africa, >President Cardoso of Brazil and Prime Minister Persson of Sweden >25. READIT (Rapid Environment and Development International Timetable) >26. Global Environmental Governance: Options & Opportunities >27. For the Sake of All Mankind, The Jakarta Posts Editorial >28. UN's view of what needs to be done in water and sanitation to improve >sustainable development >29. Nelson Mandela's Views on Water: "Put Thirst of Poor Communities First" >30. Sustaining the Poor's Development >31. Earth Summit Press Conference by Jeffrey Sachs, Leading World Economist >32. UN's view of what needs to be done in energy to improve sustainable >development >33. Cutting-Edge Policies on Indigenous Peoples and Mining: Key Lessons >for the World Summit and Beyond >34. Ecoagriculture: Strategies to Feed the World and Save Biodiversity a >Future Harvest and IUCN book. >35. Johannesburg Summit a Asashi Shimbum (Japan) Editorial >36. UN's view of what needs to be done in biodiversity to improve >sustainable development >37. Doing business in Johannesburg - a Financial Times editorial >------------------------- > >1. A New Villain in Free Trade: The Farmer on the Dole >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249123&versio >n_id=142880 >This article discusses the effects in developing countries of the $190 >billion US farm support program, which is an issue that will gain special >attention at the WSSD. The article explains how export subsidies harm the >agricultural sector in developing countries ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 25 Aug 2002 > >2. Feminist International Radio Endeavour - FIRE- events at WSSD >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249201&versio >n_id=142929 >The Feminist International Radio Endeavour - FIRE (the first women's radio >station on the Internet worldwide) will broadcast live webcasts from the >former women's prison at the UN World Summit on Sustainable Development in >South Africa. > >FIRE will broadcast perspectives ... >Contributed by Mercy Wambui on 25 Aug 2002 > >3. ABANTU for Development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249396&versio >n_id=143065 >This website is for ABANTU for Development, an international >non-governmental organisation established in 1991. ABANTU means people in >different languages from 19 African countries and symbolises our >people-centred philosophy. The focus of ABANTU's work is on training ... >Contributed by Wainaina Mungai on 26 Aug 2002 > >4. Biotechnology and Development Monitor >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249311&versio >n_id=143008 >The Biotechnology and Development Monitor is a quarterly magazine, >published in the Netherlands by The Network University in Amsterdam. It >deals with topics in the >biotechnology and development fields and is directed at developing >countries and sustainable development ... >Contributed by Riva Eskinazi on 26 Aug 2002 > >5. Summit opens with anti-poverty call (BBC News) >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249327&versio >n_id=143018 >As BBC News reported on Monday, 26 August, 2002, "the World Summit on >Sustainable Development has opened in Johannesburg, with South African >President Thabo Mbeki calling for greater solidarity with the world's poor. >He told the first session that "a global human ... >Contributed by Oleg Petrov on 26 Aug 2002 > >6. In pictures: Development Summit (BBC News photos) >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249334&versio >n_id=143022 >As BBC News reported on Aug 25, "celebrations and final preparations take >place ahead of the first day of business at the World Summit on >Sustainable Development in Johannesburg, South Africa..." Take a look at >BBC photos of the WSSD. >Contributed by Oleg Petrov on 26 Aug 2002 > >7. Joburg Media Project - Independent Media Platform >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249338&versio >n_id=143024 >This web site is intended to counter-balance the coverage of WSSD by mass >media with an independent platform for "anyone wanting to share, find and >use media material about the summit and wanting to follow the news." >Summit attendees can upload text, audio and ... >Contributed by Joseph Burgo on 26 Aug 2002 > >8. USAID: World Summit on Sustainable Development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249364&versio >n_id=143040 >This is the web site of the U.S. Agency for International Development in >support of WSSD. The site includes "Working for a Sustainable World: A >U.S. Govt. Report", background materials, speeches by US leaders, and >links to other sites. >Contributed by John Daly on 26 Aug 2002 > >9. CIDA: World Summit on Sustainable Development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249367&versio >n_id=143042 >This web site is presented by the Canadian International Development >Agency in support of the WSSD. It sets forth CIDA's Sustainable >Development Strategy and describes Canada's contributions to the Summit. >Also available in French. >Contributed by John Daly on 26 Aug 2002 > >10. Sustainable Development Strategies: A Resource Book >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249370&versio >n_id=143044 >This 2002 publication compiled By Barry Dalal-Clayton and Stephen Bass for >the OECD and UNDP seeks to describe "best practice in developing and >operating strategic processes for sustainable development, and on how >development cooperation agencies can best assist ... >Contributed by John Daly on 26 Aug 2002 > >11. National Strategies for Sustainable Development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249380&versio >n_id=143051 >This web site, documenting OECD/DAC efforts and funded by DFID (UK) and >SIDA, provides tools to assist in promoting dialogues on national >strategies for sustainable development and providing necessary background >information and reference material in support of ... >Contributed by John Daly on 26 Aug 2002 > >12. The Earth Summit Gets Under Way - With 400 Issues Still To Be Resolved >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249409&versio >n_id=143077 >This article in The Guardian (26 Aug 2002) addresses the disagreements >among government delegations on the main issues of the WSSD agenda. >According to the article, only 10 of the 411 issues on the summit agenda >have been commonly agreed in preliminary talks. The ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 26 Aug 2002 > >13. WSSD Opening Address by South African President, Thabo Mbeki >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249423&versio >n_id=143085 >Full text of the opening address by the South African President, Thabo >Mbeki, at the WSSD on August 26. President Mbeki invited the world to take >tangible measures to free billions of people from poverty and misery, >while saving the planet before its diminishing ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 26 Aug 2002 > >14. Emerging Technologies can work for Africa only if the Climate is right >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249427&versio >n_id=143087 >Addis Ababa, 23 August 2002 (ECA) -- This new policy research report >entitled 'Harnessing Technologies for Sustainable Development', released >by the Economic Commission for Africa (ECA), discusses about sustainable >development and emerging technologies in Africa ... >Contributed by Mercy Wambui on 27 Aug 2002 > >15. Resources collected by the International Finance Corporation related >to the WSSD >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249496&versio >n_id=143127 >The International Finance Corporation has collected resources here that >relate to business and sustainable development and which it believes are >most useful in connection with the WSSD. The IFC is the "private sector >arm" of the World Bank. >Contributed by John Daly on 27 Aug 2002 > >16. Resources on sustainable development compiled by Nature magazine >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249537&versio >n_id=143153 >Nature magazine includes on this page (22 Aug 2002) a selection of >material published in the magazine in recent years related to sustainable >development, as well as news and features from the Johannesburg Summit. >Contributed by John Daly on 27 Aug 2002 > >17. World Bank's View of Water at the WSSD >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249554&versio >n_id=143163 >In this opinion-editorial piece (26 Aug 2002), the World Banks Vice >President for Environmentally and Socially Sustainable Development, Ian >Johnson, urges increasing attention to the rising demand for water. >Johnson identifies water management as a key issue of ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 27 Aug 2002 > >18. The African Development Bank Groups Approach to Sustainable Development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249576&versio >n_id=143177 >Published in August 2002 in preparation for the WSSD, this 24 page PDF >report "presents the ADB's approach to sustainable development in Africa >and documents the significant progress made in ensuring the sustainability >of its lending operations." >Contributed by John Daly on 27 Aug 2002 > >19. Ecological decline 'far worse' than official estimates, reports the >Guardian >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249586&versio >n_id=143183 >This article in The Guardian (26 Aug 2002) reports how world inequality >and environmental degradation is worse than the official estimates. The >information is based on a leaked background paper used for the >Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 27 Aug 2002 > >20. China champions developing world at Earth Summit >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249630&versio >n_id=143211 >August 27, Planet Ark/Reuters This article describes how the Chinese WSSD >delegation, led by Premier Zhu Rongji, is attempting to shift the summit >focus away from environmental concerns towards debt relief for developing >countries. According to the article, China ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 27 Aug 2002 > >21. Wise Coastal Practices for Sustainable Human Development Forum >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249637&versio >n_id=143215 >Initiated in April 1999, this forum has over 12,000 members from more than >90 countries. Its 230+ messages are categorized by geographical region, >with message threads grouped by country. To visit the site, click on the >link; when the password screen appears, use ... >Contributed by Joseph Burgo on 27 Aug 2002 > >22. Eco-Equity: WSSD Newsletter >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249640&versio >n_id=143217 >Eco-Equity is "a daily newsletter being published by a coalition of Civil >Society organizations at the Johannesburg Summit." You can download it in >pdf from the Earthjustice site by clicking on the appropriate link in the >"Dateline Johannesburg" section. It can ... >Contributed by Joseph Burgo on 27 Aug 2002 > >23. UN's view of what needs to be done in agriculture to improve >sustainable development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249710&versio >n_id=143265 >This UN report, prepared for the WSSD (Aug 2002), addresses the role of >agriculture in sustainable development. The report includes proposals for >targeted actions in agriculture, one of the five key areas of the WEHAB >initiative - covering Water and sanitation, ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 27 Aug 2002 > >24. We Can Do This Good Work Together by President Mbeki of South Africa, >President Cardoso of Brazil and Prime Minister Persson of Sweden >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249807&versio >n_id=143328 >In this International Herald Tribune article (28 Aug 2002), Thabo Mbeki >(President of South Africa), Fernando Henrique Cardoso (President of >Brazil) and Goran Persson (President of Sweden) reflect on past >environmental accomplishments and future sustainable development ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 28 Aug 2002 > >25. READIT (Rapid Environment and Development International Timetable) >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249867&versio >n_id=143367 >READIT's calendar contains over 100 events related to sustainable >development, including many side events at the WSSD. It also includes more >than 300 useful links to UN, IGO, NGO and governmental sites dealing with >sustainable development issues. The SDN (Sustainable ... >Contributed by Joseph Burgo on 28 Aug 2002 > >26. Global Environmental Governance: Options & Opportunities >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249870&versio >n_id=143369 >Released on 27 August 2002 at the WSSD, this book "provides an analysis of >various ways to manage our increasing ecological interdependence and lays >out options for strengthening global environmental governance." It urges >WSSD participants to adopt "four concrete ... >Contributed by Joseph Burgo on 28 Aug 2002 > >27. For the Sake of All Mankind, The Jakarta Posts Editorial >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249923&versio >n_id=143403 >This Jakarta Post editorial (27 Aug 2002) reviews the failures of the 1992 >Rio Earth Summit and the Bali Preparatory Conference and warns that the >WSSD could end up with more empty promises rather than action. The >editorial holds the rich nations responsible ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 28 Aug 2002 > >28. UN's view of what needs to be done in water and sanitation to improve >sustainable development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=249975&versio >n_id=143436 >This UN report, prepared for the WSSD (Aug 2002), addresses the role of >water and sanitation in sustainable development. The report includes >proposals for targeted actions in water and sanitation, one of the five >key areas of the WEHAB initiative - covering Water ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 28 Aug 2002 > >29. Nelson Mandela's Views on Water: "Put Thirst of Poor Communities First" >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250143&versio >n_id=143545 >This Guardians article (29 Aug 2002) reports on Nelson Mandelas speech to >delegates at the WSSD. Addressing the need for political action on the >increasing demand for clean water, Mandela advocates that access to water >should be considered a basic human right ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 29 Aug 2002 > >30. Sustaining the Poor's Development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250151&versio >n_id=143551 >Attempting to answer the question What is the UNs World Summit on >Sustainable Development for?", this Economist opinion article (29 Aug >2002) evaluates the positive and negative aspects of the summit and >proposes to the summits participants to keep the real ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 29 Aug 2002 > >31. Earth Summit Press Conference by Jeffrey Sachs, Leading World Economist >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250154&versio >n_id=143553 >Jeffrey Sachs, UN Secretary-Generals Special Adviser on Millennium Goals, >held a press conference on August 29, 2002, in Johannesburg, to review the >worlds efforts to enhance the Millennium Development Goals. In this UN >press conference summary, Jeffrey Sachs ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 29 Aug 2002 > >32. UN's view of what needs to be done in energy to improve sustainable >development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250157&versio >n_id=143555 >This UN report, prepared for the WSSD (Aug 2002), addresses the role of >energy in sustainable development. The report includes proposals for >targeted actions in energy, one of the five key areas of the WEHAB >initiative - covering Water and sanitation, Energy, Health ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 29 Aug 2002 > >33. Cutting-Edge Policies on Indigenous Peoples and Mining: Key Lessons >for the World Summit and Beyond >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250246&versio >n_id=143613 >This Policy Brief highlights the main findings and policy implications of >a two-year collaborative research project with Indigenous Peoples in >Guyana and Colombia to examine how mining activities affect Indigenous >communities, and how policies and practice can ... >Contributed by viviane weitzner on 30 Aug 2002 > >34. Ecoagriculture: Strategies to Feed the World and Save Biodiversity a >Future Harvest and IUCN book. >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250329&versio >n_id=143667 >This book was launched at the IUCN Environment Center in Johannesburg, >during the first week of the WSSD. The book presents 36 case studies from >different parts of the world and shows how agriculture and biodiversity >can prosper together. Each case study demonstrates ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 30 Aug 2002 > >35. Johannesburg Summit a Asashi Shimbum (Japan) Editorial >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250477&versio >n_id=143762 >This Asahi Shimbum editorial article (26 Aug 2002) explains why >development aid should aim at promoting self-supporting industries in >developing countries. The editorial argues that the traditional approach >to development assistance has failed to encourage the ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 30 Aug 2002 > >36. UN's view of what needs to be done in biodiversity to improve >sustainable development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250546&versio >n_id=143805 >This UN report, prepared for the WSSD (Aug 2002), addresses the role of >biodiversity in sustainable development. The report includes proposals for >targeted actions in biodiversity, one of the five key areas of the WEHAB >initiative - covering Water and sanitation ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 31 Aug 2002 > >37. Doing business in Johannesburg - a Financial Times editorial >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250583&versio >n_id=143829 >In this Financial Times editorial (29 Aug 2002), private companies are >considered important players that will lift hopes for progress at the WSSD >in Johannesburg. Taking the example of the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio de >Janeiro, which was a good plan, poorly implemented ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 31 Aug 2002 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 3 10:39:21 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 93E2B56FF5; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts26.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.189]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B388156FF4 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 10:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.164]) by tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020903175548.IXOW21425.tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:55:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3D74F718.E1A95819@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:53:28 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Denning & quality Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org With a name like Denning and writing about value skills, this commands a read: http://www.acm.org/ubiquity/views/p_denning_2.html (but I am off to scholl now). Henry From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 3 11:48:44 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8A1A356FF8; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com [207.46.181.83]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B1DBB56FF5 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.39.60]) by cpimssmtpu08.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:05:20 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Denning & quality Date: Tue, 3 Sep 2002 12:06:18 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <3D74F718.E1A95819@sympatico.ca> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Sep 2002 19:05:20.0680 (UTC) FILETIME=[D950DA80:01C2537C] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Very cool. Are you connecting Denning and Deming? Peter has been writing some great things about our relationship to work, commitments, and success/mastery/expertise. He writes the "Profession of IT" column in the Communications of the ACM and I commend his latest article to the readers of this list, since it has a lot to say about the prospects of expert systems and the difference in educational modes for experts as opposed to beginners and entry professionals. I think this has a big impact on augmentation and what one can expect from it. Denning, Peter J. Career Redux. column: The Profession of IT. Comm. ACM 45, 9 (September 2002), 21-26. I don't think it is on-line (yet). -- Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Henry K van Eyken Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 10:53 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Denning & quality With a name like Denning and writing about value skills, this commands a read: http://www.acm.org/ubiquity/views/p_denning_2.html (but I am off to scholl now). Henry From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 3 11:52:51 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9625C56FF9; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AB5556FF8 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 11:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020903191045.IWGN13899.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 19:10:45 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020903120653.024af280@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 12:07:52 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Uncloaking Terrorist Networks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue7_4/krebs/ "This paper looks at mapping covert networks using data available from news sources on the World Wide Web. Specifically, we examine the network surrounding the tragic events of September 11th 2001. Through public data we are able to map a portion of the network centered on the 19 dead hijackers. This map gives us some insight into the terrorist organization, yet it is incomplete. Suggestions for further work and research are offered" Screenshots of a social-networks graph application. Interesting ideas, useful links. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 3 13:15:30 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 64D2456FFA; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:15:30 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B323456FF8 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17116 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 14:33:22 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g83KXLi23672 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 13:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D751CAC.EBEB9FED@sun.com> Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 13:33:48 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [GP] Radio emerges from the electronic soup References: <4.2.2.20020831185340.0231af00@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Jack Park wrote: > >"A self-organising electronic circuit has stunned engineers by > >turning itself into a radio receiver." > >http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992732 Awesome. I'm *rolling* over here. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 3 20:04:39 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A7BDF56FF8; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 20:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 46F1156FF4 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 20:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020904032231.JOUX13899.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 03:22:31 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020903201905.02424100@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 20:19:35 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: Technologies for Education: Potential, Parameters, and Prospects Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >We are pleased to inform you, as a subscriber to TechKnowLogia, that a new >book, "Technologies for Education: Potential, Parameters, and Prospects >has just been published by UNESCO and The Academy for Educational >Development (AED). It is now available on AED's web site in a PDF format >similar to the printed copy. The whole book or individual chapters may be >viewed or downloaded. > >The URL is: http://www.aed.org/publications/TechEdInfo.html > >The book was prepared by Knowledge Enterprise, Inc., the publisher of >TechKnowLogia and draws in certain chapters on articles published in >TechKnowLogia. > >Editors: Wadi D. Haddad, Editor of TechKnowLogia, and Alexandra Draxler, >Senior Program Specialist at the International Institute of Educational >Planning (UNESCO) > >Drawing on the wealth of worldwide knowledge and experience, this book >outlines the rationales and realities of Information and Communication >Technologies (ICTs) for education, examines the options and choices for >applying them, and summarizes a series of case studies that illustrate >modalities of integrating ICTs into learning systems in different >settings. The Book explores how ICTs can promote improvements in >educational reach and delivery, content, learning outcomes, teaching, >quality, and pertinence in developing countries. > >You may wish to call the attention of your friends and colleagues to this >URL. You may also wish to arrange for a link to this URL on web sites that >you are associated with. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 3 20:36:41 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0506356FF9; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 20:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts23.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.185]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CE2256FF8 for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 20:36:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.189]) by tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020904035307.GFFN15822.tomts23-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 3 Sep 2002 23:53:07 -0400 Message-ID: <3D75831A.8FE9D4C4@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 03 Sep 2002 23:50:50 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Denning & quality References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Oh Boy! That memory of mine needs a kick in the you-know-where! I could have sworn that the "quality-first" man was Denning. Nevertheless, thanks for pointing this out. Actually, Dennis, this brings up a point of significance to augmenting the human intellect - to utilize, if we can so manage, digital support for false memories, aging brains, brains otherwise afflicted. I know that my brains play tricks on me, some much worse than this little faux pas. The important thing is not to be embarrassed about it but to do th best with what one has got. Which begins with being just plain objective. Proghrammes have been making all sorts of calendars, post-it notes, organizers, what-have-you. The next step would be to find some way to alert users to where their memory needs course correction. Looks like a pretty tall order, but then again ... Recently, I saw a report that memory mishaps are not so much the result of a loss of brain cells, but because of some deficiency in some mental circuit. Which suggests that work need be dome not so much on correcting data stored in memory, but on certain mechanisms of the brain. That ought to reduce the problem. Really, I should have been replying about Peter Denning's credentials. At this point I am just intending to pay attention to the gentleman's accomplishments. Henry "Dennis E. Hamilton" wrote: > Very cool. > > Are you connecting Denning and Deming? > > Peter has been writing some great things about our relationship to work, > commitments, and success/mastery/expertise. He writes the "Profession of > IT" column in the Communications of the ACM and I commend his latest article > to the readers of this list, since it has a lot to say about the prospects > of expert systems and the difference in educational modes for experts as > opposed to beginners and entry professionals. I think this has a big impact > on augmentation and what one can expect from it. > > Denning, Peter J. Career Redux. column: The Profession of IT. Comm. ACM > 45, 9 (September 2002), 21-26. > > I don't think it is on-line (yet). > > -- Dennis > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Henry K van Eyken > Sent: Tuesday, September 03, 2002 10:53 > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Denning & quality > > With a name like Denning and writing about value skills, this commands a > read: > > http://www.acm.org/ubiquity/views/p_denning_2.html > > (but I am off to scholl now). > > Henry From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 4 09:11:45 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E70BE56FFA; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E1A356FF4 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 55106 invoked from network); 4 Sep 2002 16:29:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (10.1.17.76) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 4 Sep 2002 16:29:16 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Denning & quality Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2002 09:30:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3D75831A.8FE9D4C4@sympatico.ca> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In "The Invisible Computer", Donald Norman points out that this sort of "lapse" is part of the benefit of human information processing. He uses the question: "How many of each kind of animal did Moses take on the ark?" It was Noah, not Moses, who built the ark, but most people will not note the error. When conversing with another person, the automatic correction is a benefit - "you know what I mean". If I asked the question, the intent is, presumably, to get an answer to the question, and if the question gets answered correctly, it is not important that the question itself was less than totally correct. Norman makes a strong case that we need to design interfaces that take into account human characteristics -- that indeed treat these characteristics as positive rather than negative. It does present a challenge, however. If you try to get a computer to provide information on Deming when asked for information on Denning, I am not certain how to do that, but it would be immensely useful if it can be done. Google tries this in its "Did you mean ...?" prompt when it has search terms that are close to, but not quite, what you typed. Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson -----Original Message----- From: Henry K van Eyken Oh Boy! That memory of mine needs a kick in the you-know-where! I could have sworn that the "quality-first" man was Denning. Nevertheless, thanks for pointing this out. Actually, Dennis, this brings up a point of significance to augmenting the human intellect - to utilize, if we can so manage, digital support for false memories, aging brains, brains otherwise afflicted. I know that my brains play tricks on me, some much worse than this little faux pas. The important thing is not to be embarrassed about it but to do th best with what one has got. Which begins with being just plain objective. Proghrammes have been making all sorts of calendars, post-it notes, organizers, what-have-you. The next step would be to find some way to alert users to where their memory needs course correction. Looks like a pretty tall order, but then again ... Recently, I saw a report that memory mishaps are not so much the result of a loss of brain cells, but because of some deficiency in some mental circuit. Which suggests that work need be dome not so much on correcting data stored in memory, but on certain mechanisms of the brain. That ought to reduce the problem. Really, I should have been replying about Peter Denning's credentials. At this point I am just intending to pay attention to the gentleman's accomplishments. Henry From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 4 10:25:30 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 59F3856FFD; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts8.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.52]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C4AEE56FF4 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.177]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020904174233.PBBF23325.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 13:42:33 -0400 Message-ID: <3D76455C.F70D954B@sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 13:39:40 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Denning & quality References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Interesting tidbits, Gary. Here is a recent personal experience of a kind that spells trouble. My federal income tax statement came back with a $3000 cheque. I had overpaid. While happy about that, I also was darn ticked off with my tax accountant. How could she have. Because she was away for the summer, I withheld her fees till I could speak to her in person and pount out her blunder. Months went by, and then the truth of the matter dawned upon me. When I was at her office to pick up the tax return she just had prepared for me, she walked me through it and then found herself that a box to that amount had been left blank. The choice was between her reprinting the whole wad of papers and me picking it up the next day, or me filling it in myself by hand. It is quite a distance to her office so I decided on the second course - which I prompt forgot. Funny, if that is the word, that it took months for that sequence of events to come back to me. Now, going back to Peter Denning's article in Ubiquitous. He points out that the old-fashioned engineers tend to be "aloof from their customers, and inclined to substitute technologies of personal interest for technologies that would bring value to their customers. " Among the costs this exacts he lists a waste in technology development. Denning's paper is about inculcating in students "value dynamics," i.e. value-generating and value-delivery skills. Had some sort of mental augmentation be available to prod my memory a little a few months before it self-corrected itself, that would have possibly prevented a loss of $3000 and a strained relationship. (One may wonder how many cranky old fogeys are cranky simply because they think other people are independable, not they themselves.) There is a lot going on in the world of brain and mind science. It seems to me it would be well for academia to contemplate how to better prepare cognitive scientists of the future for creating effecitve connections between software and meatware. There is more to Denning's paper than just this. I believe his Ubiquitous article is a worthy subject of discussion. Perhaps especially the part where he insists that claims must be grounded. Henry "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" wrote: > In "The Invisible Computer", Donald Norman points out that this sort of > "lapse" is part of the benefit of human information processing. > > He uses the question: > "How many of each kind of animal did Moses take on the ark?" > It was Noah, not Moses, who built the ark, but most people will not note the > error. When conversing with another person, the automatic correction is a > benefit - "you know what I mean". If I asked the question, the intent is, > presumably, to get an answer to the question, and if the question gets > answered correctly, it is not important that the question itself was less > than totally correct. > > Norman makes a strong case that we need to design interfaces that take into > account human characteristics -- that indeed treat these characteristics as > positive rather than negative. > > It does present a challenge, however. If you try to get a computer to > provide information on Deming when asked for information on Denning, I am > not certain how to do that, but it would be immensely useful if it can be > done. > > Google tries this in its "Did you mean ...?" prompt when it has search terms > that are close to, but not quite, what you typed. > > Thanks, > > Garold (Gary) L. Johnson > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henry K van Eyken > > Oh Boy! That memory of mine needs a kick in the you-know-where! I could have > sworn that the "quality-first" man was Denning. Nevertheless, thanks for > pointing this out. > > Actually, Dennis, this brings up a point of significance to augmenting the > human intellect - to utilize, if we can so manage, digital support for false > memories, aging brains, brains otherwise afflicted. > > I know that my brains play tricks on me, some much worse than this little > faux > pas. The important thing is not to be embarrassed about it but to do th best > with what one has got. Which begins with being just plain objective. > > Proghrammes have been making all sorts of calendars, post-it notes, > organizers, > what-have-you. The next step would be to find some way to alert users to > where > their memory needs course correction. Looks like a pretty tall order, but > then > again ... > > Recently, I saw a report that memory mishaps are not so much the result of a > loss of brain cells, but because of some deficiency in some mental circuit. > Which suggests that work need be dome not so much on correcting data stored > in > memory, but on certain mechanisms of the brain. That ought to reduce the > problem. > > Really, I should have been replying about Peter Denning's credentials. At > this > point I am just intending to pay attention to the gentleman's > accomplishments. > > Henry From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 4 10:57:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6F0FB56FFD; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:57:46 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4509056FF4 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 10:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020904181543.DKYF1399.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@sony> for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 18:15:43 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020904111107.025702f0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 11:12:50 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Making the case against software patents? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/02/09/04/0445237.shtml?tid=155 ""I'm an open-source developer in a small western nation, which is slowly starting to take interest in Open Source, but whose (still MS-dominated) government is currently considering adopting a software patents regime similar to USA. This nation boasts a smart and feisty IT community, who have been terribly under-represented in government. I have a meeting in a week with a prominent member of the legislature (who has IT portfolio interests), during which I will have the opportunity to put the case against software patents. I'm asking for help in assembling information for use in the anti-patents case. Thank you dearly for any and all help you are able to provide here." The responses on this page are pretty useful. For instance, the top response listed pointed to this page http://ask.slashdot.org/search.pl?topic=155 which is a compilation of all slashdot discussions related to the topic of software patents. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From adia@pipeline.com Wed Sep 4 15:30:03 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3438256FF4 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 15:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dpc6682048001.direcpc.com ([66.82.48.1] helo=Ryttwcgss) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17mivo-0003S7-00 for ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org; Wed, 04 Sep 2002 18:47:30 -0400 From: gotyeyadobber To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Subject: A humour game MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=XeD94XHb113X9KE1wpzpn2Y07x79E2sEj Message-Id: Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 18:47:30 -0400 --XeD94XHb113X9KE1wpzpn2Y07x79E2sEj Content-Type: text/html; Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello,This is a special humour game
This game is my first work.
You're the first player.
I expect you would like it.
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(8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8509si00757 for ; Wed, 4 Sep 2002 17:09:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D76A0F0.FD427AEA@sun.com> Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 17:10:24 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Making the case against software patents? References: <4.2.2.20020904111107.025702f0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Jack Park wrote: > http://ask.slashdot.org/search.pl?topic=155 > ...a compilation of all slashdot discussions related to the topic of > software patents. I looked at a few. The most eloquent and persuasive (naturally) was Donald Knuth's arguments: http://lpf.ai.mit.edu/Patents/knuth-to-pto.txt From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 07:27:59 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 251BE56FFA; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (ms4.lga2.nytimes.com [64.15.247.148]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 95EC656FF9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from email5.lga2.nytimes.com (email5 [10.0.0.170]) by ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B0045A4D0 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by email5.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix, from userid 202) id 36A6958A4D; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:42:21 -0400 (EDT) From: garyrichmond@rcn.com To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Alternative to Microsoft Gains Support in High Places Message-Id: <20020905144221.36A6958A4D@email5.lga2.nytimes.com> Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 10:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. Open Source, Linux in today's New York Times. GR garyrichmond@rcn.com An Alternative to Microsoft Gains Support in High Places September 5, 2002 By STEVE LOHR Governments around the world, afraid that Microsoft has become too powerful in critical software markets, have begun working to ensure an alternative. More than two dozen countries in Asia, Europe and Latin America, including China and Germany, are now encouraging their government agencies to use "open source" software - developed by communities of programmers who distribute the code without charge and donate their labor to cooperatively debug, modify and otherwise improve the software. The best known of these projects is Linux, a computer operating system that Microsoft now regards as the leading competitive threat to its lucrative Windows franchise in the market for software that runs computer servers. The foremost corporate champion of Linux is I.B.M., which is working with many governments on Linux projects. Against this opposition, Microsoft has found itself in the uncommon position of campaigning for the even-handed competition of "a level playing field." And I.B.M., once the feared monopolist of the era of mainframe computers, is casting itself as a force of liberation from Microsoft, the monopolist of today. Microsoft worries that some governments may all but require the use of Linux for their powerful servers, which provide data to large networks of computer users. For the most part, the battle does not involve the kind of software that runs on the typical computer user's desk. To curb such moves, Microsoft is backing an industry group called the Initiative for Software Choice. The group lists 20 members - besides the chip maker Intel, a close ally, most of them small foreign companies or organizations. (Illegally stifling choice, of course, was precisely what the federal courts in the long-running antitrust case ruled that Microsoft did in the market for personal computer software.) The motivations and actions by foreign governments vary somewhat, but mostly they seem to be trying to ensure competition. That was the stance taken by a delegation of Chinese officials involved in developing their software industry, who visited the United States last month. In an interview, Jiang Guangzhi, director of a software development center in Shanghai, discussed the progress made in China on various Linux projects and emphasized that the government did not want one company "to manipulate or dominate the Chinese market." With its entry into the World Trade Organization, China is facing increased pressure to crack down on software piracy, adding to the appeal of free software like Linux, Mr. Jiang said. His delegation had attended the LinuxWorld conference in San Francisco, and met with I.B.M. executives and its Linux experts at the company's headquarters in Armonk, N.Y. Yet Mr. Jiang also spoke glowingly of Microsoft's involvement in China. The company set up a research laboratory in Beijing and recently made a commitment to invest $700 million in China over the next three years in education, training and research, and in investments in local companies. "We appreciate Microsoft's contributions," Mr. Jiang said. To Chinese Communist officials, it seems, Linux is a useful tool of pragmatic capitalism to pump-prime market competition to China's advantage. The support of open source software by governments around the world is rising. There are currently 66 government proposals, statements and studies promoting open source software in 25 countries, according to the Initiative for Software Choice. The policy statements and legislative proposals mainly encourage the use of open source software in government procurement, and nearly all of them have cropped up in the last 18 months. "It's growing, unfortunately, from our perspective," said Mike Wendy, a spokesman for the software initiative, which was founded in May. The impetus for the international activity was in Europe. A technology advisory group to the European Commission issued a report two years ago that termed open source software "a great opportunity" for the region that could perhaps "change the rules in the information technology industry," wresting the lead in software from the United States and reducing Europe's reliance on imports. As open source software, especially Linux, has spread, countries in other regions have also come to regard it as both a model of software development and perhaps an engine of economic growth. The government proposals and projects are efforts to position their nations to exploit a promising trend in technology. Source code is software rendered in a programming language that human programmers can read and understand, before it is compiled down to the digital 1's and 0's that the machine processes. Software companies, like Microsoft, typically guard their source code as a trade secret, and certainly do not allow outsiders to modify or redistribute it. In the open source model, the source code is freely published for all to see. Then, interested programmers - often all over the world, communicating over the Internet - work on a project to fix, modify and add improvements. These self-selected communities work out their own governing arrangements to determine when changes in the code are approved or rejected. The leading open source projects are Apache, the software most used for distributing Web pages to desktop computers, and the Linux operating system. The kernel, or basic engine, of Linux was initially developed by Linus Torvalds, a Finnish programmer who now works in the United States - though the operating system itself is a result of work from many contributors, including Richard M. Stallman, who leads a free software project called GNU. Just how far the open source model can go is uncertain. The projects rely on voluntary contributions from programmers who work at universities, government laboratories and companies. Money is made in the open source environment by supplying technical support, services and writing applications that run on top of the open source software. Linux has certainly gone a long way already. Though there are versions of Linux that run on desktop PC's, the real success of Linux has been as an operating system on larger data-serving machines, which power computer networks in corporations and governments and the Internet. The big market for computer server software is also crucial to Microsoft's future. Although the company controls a huge portion of the personal computer operating systems market, to keep growing it must push increasingly into the lucrative market for software that runs corporate and government data centers. It is there that Microsoft encounters what its senior executives have cited as the two most significant competitive threats: I.B.M. and free software, notably Linux. That combination, in Microsoft's view, could be particularly powerful, especially if open source software emerges as the most politically acceptable technological path. In Germany, for example, the lower house of Parliament adopted a resolution last November declaring that the government should use open source software "whenever doing so will reduce costs." The resolution also cited as advantages "stability" and "security." Microsoft's Windows operating system is often criticized for crashing too often and for being susceptible to computer viruses and security breaches. Then in June, the German government and I.B.M. announced a "far-reaching cooperation agreement" to use open source software in national and municipal government agencies. "The fact that Linux provides a true alternative to the Windows operating system," said Otto Schily, the German interior minister, "increases our independence and improves our position as a big customer for software." The German case, I.B.M. says, is part of an emerging pattern. "There's not a large government in the world we're not talking to," said Steven Solazzo, general manager of I.B.M.'s Linux business. The Initiative for Software Choice, the Microsoft-supported group, said it has nothing against open source software as such, but that a declared policy favoring one development model is a bias - a competition based on prejudice instead of the merits of the products. "All we're looking for is a level playing field competitively," said Peter Houston, a senior strategy executive in Microsoft's Windows group. As open source software moves out of its incubator of a comparatively small community of devoted software developers and into the commercial mainstream, customers - in governments and corporations - will increasingly see its limitations, Mr. Houston said. Windows, he said, has a wide range of tools and technical abilities that Linux does not have in a "comprehensive, integrated, easy-to-use" package. By contrast, Mr. Houston said, I.B.M. is mainly trying to convert its weakness in the operating-system market to its advantage by making money supplying the software - the ingredients that an operating system like Linux lacks - and collecting services revenue for putting it all together. "I.B.M. is just trying to move the value up the chain from the operating system," Mr. Houston said. In the end, market competition should determine whether Microsoft or Linux gains the upper hand. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/05/technology/05CODE.html?ex=1032236941&ei=1&en=612cb5280a994c5e HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 07:50:40 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 55A3456FFB; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13706.mail.yahoo.com (web13706.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.139]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1138556FFA for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 07:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020905150838.95784.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [218.145.63.165] by web13706.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 08:08:38 PDT Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 08:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Free Download: World Wide Outline Early Alpha Test www.worldwideoutline.net To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1769865623-1031238518=:95681" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1769865623-1031238518=:95681 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi there, I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of Advanced Data Management, which is the lead company in a new initiative intended to subsume the web and other existing net services such as email in a broader, more comprehensive, easier to use, and more intelligent information system. This iniative is called "World Wide Outline" , and I'd like to invite all interestd members of this list, and especially those interested in work such as Dougals Engelbert's , to read about it and download our experimental early alpha- client to test drive it from www.worldwideoutline.net Once you've exaimined this early instantiation, I'll be glad to provide information on features such as `superlinking', `user customzied databases', and other elements to be incorporated shortly when we resume coding. Looking forward to hearing from you, Eric Sommer, CEO ADM P.S. Please, please use the help system in the wwo client; it's not rocket science, but you may not find your way around without it. Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1769865623-1031238518=:95681 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi there, 

I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of Advanced Data Management, which is the lead company in a new initiative intended to subsume the web and other existing net services such as email in a broader, more comprehensive, easier to use, and more intelligent information system. 

This iniative is called "World Wide Outline" , and I'd like to invite all interestd members of this list, and especially those interested in work such as Dougals Engelbert's , to read about it and download our experimental early alpha- client to test drive it from www.worldwideoutline.net

Once you've exaimined this early instantiation, I'll be glad to provide information on features such as `superlinking', `user customzied databases', and other elements to be incorporated shortly when we resume coding. 

Looking forward to hearing from you,

Eric Sommer, CEO ADM  P.S. Please, please use the help system in the wwo client; it's not rocket science, but you may not find your way around without it. 

 

 



Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes


Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1769865623-1031238518=:95681-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 12:07:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EFF6956FFB; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from txsmtp01.texas.rr.com (smtp1.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.229]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E2C0056FF9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 12:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux (cs662583-231.satx.rr.com [66.25.83.231]) by txsmtp01.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g85JOtZH013807 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <200209051924.g85JOtZH013807@txsmtp01.texas.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Matthew Schneider Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Granular Addressability in HTML Documents - ON THE FLY Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:17:48 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Doug Englebart gave us Augment and Eugene E. Kim gave us Purple. I am ple= ased to announce: PurpleSlurple (PS). The idea is the same as Purple, "granula= r addressability in HTML documents", but this solution attempts to facilita= te and apply this functionality to documents that already exist on the Web. = Purple on-the-fly as it were. [NOTE: I am not aware of any scripts that currently offer this functional= ity, and I'm surprised there aren't any. Which means it's very likely that I'v= e overlooked them. If anyone is aware of any please point me to them.] As an example I've pointed PS at Eugene E. Kim's "An Introduction to Purple" (even though it's redundant to do so since the document already = has Purple numbers). Below is the link, generated by PS, to the "Granular Addressability in HTML Documents" paragraph. http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php?theurl=3Dhttp://www.eekim.com/s= oftware/purple/purple.html#purp97 This implementation is nowhere close to release (as any will see who look= ), but I think the basic concept is workable and offers utility and quite= frankly I wanted to get it out there. I would be interested in any feedb= ack. Give it a try yourself at: http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php Best regards, Matthew A. Schneider ---- some "technical" and not so technical stuff ---- P.S. It should be obvious that PS works best with well structured text-heavy Web pages (i.e., no sense in pointing it at Yahoo), but that'= s where all the action is anyway. Hint: For graphic intensive pages, the "printer friendly" version of a pa= ge will likely work better than the "normal" page. Also, I am currently adding to the script so that images whose source is = specified by a relative URL will display properly. If you're running Mozilla (your not? ;) One can add a so called "Bookmark= Keyword" (http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2002/bookmarks/) to ena= ble PS in the address bar. I've created one using keyword "p". Now to app= ly Purple numbers to the page I'm viewing I simply click into the address= bar and type "p " in front of the URL - instant Purple numbers applied t= o the page. One could also create a javascript bookmarklet for one-click = Purple numbers (coming soon!). The Purple numbers generated by PS are in and of themselves fairly meanin= gless (in the case of PS it happens to be the line number of the document= as reported by my program). Web pages that have "real" Purple numbers ha= ve the numbers applied at design time. These Purple numbers correspond to= properly sequenced heading and paragraph numbers. I make no attempt to o= rder my numbers in such a manner. Because of the way that most people (im= properly) use HTML, it would be virtually impossible to do this with exis= ting Web pages. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 13:45:59 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 14D7556FFA; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 87B5B56FF9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23986 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:03:52 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g85L3mi15771 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D77C6D4.7E3CBB8F@sun.com> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 14:04:20 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Granular Addressability in HTML Documents - ON THE FLY References: <200209051924.g85JOtZH013807@txsmtp01.texas.rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Matthew Schneider wrote: > Doug Englebart gave us Augment and Eugene E. Kim gave us Purple. I am pleased > to announce: PurpleSlurple (PS). The idea is the same as Purple, "granular > addressability in HTML documents", but this solution attempts to facilitate > and apply this functionality to documents that already exist on the Web. Purple on-the-fly as it were. Hell, I had to look at this just because of the name. (I love it.). Marvelous hack!! This could be the best thing since sliced bread, *especially* if it were implemented as a proxy. Then all of the web pages I visit would could through that proxy, and be purplized. Notes: * This is basically Doug's transcoding vision, but with the server taken out of the picture, because the proxy is part of the client system. * That means URLs look identical to normal URLs, instead of being passed as an argument to a server. * Since all proxies would purplize the same, the reference my proxy generates would go to the indentical location in your proxy -- and unproxied browsers would simply ignore the anchor reference. The one drawback to that scenario is the runtime cost of purpilizing every page as it is viewed. An alternative would be a giant google server that cached everything with purple numbers. Again, normal URLs would work -- you'd simply be looking at the world through a purple-colored lense, as it were. Again, great hack. Congratulations. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 13:53:57 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4A0D356FFB; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CF29656FFA for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 13:53:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01670 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g85LBoi17927 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D77C8B6.BE1E36A@sun.com> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 14:12:22 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Free Download: World Wide Outline Early Alpha Test www.worldwideoutline.net References: <20020905150838.95784.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Questions: * What are the 3 main benefits of using this system? * Who do you expect will receive the most benefit from it, alternatively, how would you charaterize the type of web usage which stands to receive the most benefit? * What's the business model? What are you planning to give away, and what are you planning to sell? (If you know. If not, what alternatives have you considered?) * What's the licensing strategy, if any? ADM Staff wrote: > Hi there, > > I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of Advanced Data Management, which is > the lead company in a new initiative intended to subsume the > web and other existing net services such as email in a > broader, more comprehensive, easier to use, and more > intelligent information system. > > This iniative is called "World Wide Outline" , and I'd like > to invite all interestd members of this list, and especially > those interested in work such as Dougals Engelbert's , to > read about it and download our experimental early alpha- > client to test drive it from www.worldwideoutline.net > > Once you've exaimined this early instantiation, I'll be glad > to provide information on features such as `superlinking', > `user customzied databases', and other elements to be > incorporated shortly when we resume coding. > > Looking forward to hearing from you, > > Eric Sommer, CEO ADM P.S. Please, please use the help > system in the wwo client; it's not rocket science, but you > may not find your way around without it. > > > > > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 14:24:39 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B628B56FFA; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D94556FF9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:24:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAB05879 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 15:42:29 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g85LgSi28162 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D77CFE4.7788B710@sun.com> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 14:43:00 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Alternative to Microsoft Gains Support in High Places References: <20020905144221.36A6958A4D@email5.lga2.nytimes.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote: > This article from NYTimes.com > has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. > > Open Source, Linux in today's New York Times. > > An Alternative to Microsoft Gains Support in High Places > ... Thanks for sharing that. Gives me a whole new perspective. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 17:31:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id DEA6F56FFA; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.speakeasy.net (mail11.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.211]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6FA0756FF9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 17:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 9806 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2002 00:49:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO cim-oem.com) ([66.92.12.48]) (envelope-sender ) by mail11.speakeasy.net (qmail-ldap-1.03) with RC4-MD5 encrypted SMTP for ; 6 Sep 2002 00:49:48 -0000 Message-ID: <3D77FBAB.73CE0C12@cim-oem.com> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 17:49:47 -0700 From: "Peter P. Yim" Organization: CIM Engineering, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Granular Addressability in HTML Documents - ON THE FLY References: <200209051924.g85JOtZH013807@txsmtp01.texas.rr.com> <3D77C6D4.7E3CBB8F@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Good work, Matthew! I concur with Eric. One item on the wish list (if I may have one), ... the way you have it now, a paragraph with a list (unordered or ordered) are all rolled under one purple number. It is generally useful to be able to reference a particular bullet within the list. As such, it will be great to have purple numbers for each item on a list. Hope you'll include this in your next enhancement. Best regards, PPY P.S. I know you mentioned about graphics already ... but it would still be nice to be able to pull the images along. -- Eric Armstrong wrote Thu, 05 Sep 2002 14:04:20 -0700: > > Matthew Schneider wrote Thu, 5 Sep 2002 14:17:48 -0500: > > > Doug Englebart gave us Augment and Eugene E. Kim gave us Purple. I am pleased > > to announce: PurpleSlurple (PS). The idea is the same as Purple, "granular > > addressability in HTML documents", but this solution attempts to facilitate > > and apply this functionality to documents that already exist on the Web. Purple on-the-fly as it were. > > Hell, I had to look at this just because of the name. (I love it.). > > Marvelous hack!! > > This could be the best thing since sliced bread, *especially* if it were implemented > as a proxy. Then all of the web pages I visit would could through that proxy, and > be purplized. > > Notes: > * This is basically Doug's transcoding vision, but with the server taken out > of the picture, because the proxy is part of the client system. > * That means URLs look identical to normal URLs, instead of being passed > as an argument to a server. > * Since all proxies would purplize the same, the reference my proxy generates > would go to the indentical location in your proxy -- and unproxied browsers > would simply ignore the anchor reference. > > The one drawback to that scenario is the runtime cost of purpilizing every page as it is viewed. An alternative would be a giant google server that cached everything with purple numbers. Again, normal URLs would work -- you'd simply be looking at the world through a purple-colored lense, as it were. > > Again, great hack. > Congratulations. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 19:48:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A3AB656FFA; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 19:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13706.mail.yahoo.com (web13706.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.139]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DFB9D56FF9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 19:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020906030643.47925.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [218.145.63.23] by web13706.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 20:06:43 PDT Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:06:43 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Dougals Engelbert ?? To: Matthew Schneider , ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <200209051144.56315.mschneider3@satx.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1267632447-1031281603=:46772" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1267632447-1031281603=:46772 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Matthew, I'm happy to have my typo below corrected but a mistake is no excuse for rudeness. I wish you had examined the WWO before sending this kind of rebuke. `Spam', as I'm sure you know, is inappropriatge and unsolicited material. I am not only a member of this list but WWO was influenced by, and is relevant to, many issues involving data interconnectivity and Douglas work on hypertext and other matters. Cordially, Eric Sommer Matthew Schneider wrote: On Thursday 05 September 2002 10:08, ADM Staff wrote: > Dougals Engelbert's (lauging) Who's Dougals Engelbert? You would think that if you were going to spam this list you would at least spell Doug Engelbart's name correctly. Matthew A. Schneider Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1267632447-1031281603=:46772 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi Matthew,

I'm happy to have my typo below corrected but a mistake is no excuse for rudeness.  I wish you had examined the WWO before sending this kind of rebuke.  `Spam', as I'm sure you know, is inappropriatge and unsolicited material.  I am not only a member of this list but WWO was influenced by, and is relevant to, many issues involving data interconnectivity and Douglas work on hypertext and other matters. 

Cordially, Eric Sommer

 Matthew Schneider wrote:

On Thursday 05 September 2002 10:08, ADM Staff wrote:
> Dougals Engelbert's

(lauging) Who's Dougals Engelbert? You would think that if you were going to
spam this list you would at least spell Doug Engelbart's name correctly.

Matthew A. Schneider


Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1267632447-1031281603=:46772-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 20:05:52 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7826056FFB; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F116556FFA for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 20:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-201-34.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.201.34] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #6) id 17n9ii-0004jd-00; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 23:23:44 -0400 Message-ID: <3D781FB4.6000606@rcn.com> Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2002 23:23:32 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Dougals Engelbert ?? References: <20020906030643.47925.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010204090405010503080706" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------010204090405010503080706 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > a mistake is no excuse for rudeness I have to agree. Civility goes a long way on the net. Gary ADM Staff wrote: > Hi Matthew, > > I'm happy to have my typo below corrected but a mistake is no excuse > for rudeness. I wish you had examined the WWO before sending this > kind of rebuke. `Spam', as I'm sure you know, is inappropriatge and > unsolicited material. I am not only a member of this list but WWO was > influenced by, and is relevant to, many issues involving data > interconnectivity and Douglas work on hypertext and other matters. > > Cordially, Eric Sommer > > Matthew Schneider wrote: > > On Thursday 05 September 2002 10:08, ADM Staff wrote: > > Dougals Engelbert's > > (lauging) Who's Dougals Engelbert? You would think that if you > were going to > spam this list you would at least spell Doug Engelbart's name > correctly. > > Matthew A. Schneider > > > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance > - > Get real-time stock quotes --------------010204090405010503080706 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
a mistake is no excuse for rudeness
I have to agree. Civility goes a long way on the net. Gary


ADM Staff wrote:

Hi Matthew,

I'm happy to have my typo below corrected but a mistake is no excuse for rudeness.  I wish you had examined the WWO before sending this kind of rebuke.  `Spam', as I'm sure you know, is inappropriatge and unsolicited material.  I am not only a member of this list but WWO was influenced by, and is relevant to, many issues involving data interconnectivity and Douglas work on hypertext and other matters. 

Cordially, Eric Sommer

 Matthew Schneider wrote:

On Thursday 05 September 2002 10:08, ADM Staff wrote:
> Dougals Engelbert's

(lauging) Who's Dougals Engelbert? You would think that if you were going to
spam this list you would at least spell Doug Engelbart's name correctly.

Matthew A. Schneider


Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes

--------------010204090405010503080706-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 21:31:58 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 29C5956FFA; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:31:58 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13707.mail.yahoo.com (web13707.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.140]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A6C5956FF9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020906044956.90175.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [218.145.63.165] by web13707.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 05 Sep 2002 21:49:56 PDT Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:49:56 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Main Advantages of WWO Technology (response to request) To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <3D77C8B6.BE1E36A@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1622946354-1031287796=:90058" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1622946354-1031287796=:90058 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Eric, Thanks for your queries below. Without familiarization with our demo (which can be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net ), it's difficult to present a concise - and intelligible - response to your questions, just as explaining the advantages and impacts of html would be difficult in the case of an interogator not familiar with the web. Because of its character as new kind of global information management system, it is difficult to reduce wwo to `three main benefits'. Howerver, one could say that it will provide a magnitude greater ease and power in: 1. Creation and capture of information of all kinds. All information, and all file types can be manipulated through, viewed within, and published to the net from within a single WWO client. 2. Publishing and sharing information in a global system. The *same* WWO client is seamlessly used to create and organize information on the desktop, to interlink it with previously published datastructures already online, and to publish it. WWO's experimental client allows for all file types to be drag-and-drop linked to its outliner topics, and version 2.0 will extend this same drag and drop functionality to allowing full linking of all file types to the text in the internal textcards/pages. 3. Hopefully, WWO will benefit all users on the planet who seek better means of organizing, accessing, and sharing information. You asked about how `web usage' would benefit, but WWO is a post-web technology which includes but subsumes the web. (Viewing the demo will clarify this point.) Finally, as you asked about licenses and the business model, I can't go into detail here, but in general we hold with Gandhi that "True development puts first those that society puts last." So, while final decisions have not been made, we will probably 1) Provide free licensing of all levels of WWO related technology to a wide variety, and perhaps to all, NGO's on the planet, from Green Peace to women's shelters to the UN; and 2) Provide free access to entry-level WWO technology to all people. Licensing of `enterprise' and `professional' level versions, and of an ADM/WWO server product, will probably be sold. (Facilities for integration with other `people's products', such as openoffice, may also be included.) That's it for now; thanks for your interest. And I look forward to your comments and feedback on the WWO tech. Cordially, Eric Who do you expect will receive the most benefit from it, alternatively, how would you charaterize the type of web usage which stands to receive the most benefit? ========= ========== WWO will, when completed, provide a means to * What's the business model? What are you planning to give away, and what are you planning to sell? (If you know. If not, what alternatives have you considered?) * What's the licensing strategy, if any? ADM Staff wrote: > Hi there, > > I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of Advanced Data Management, which is > the lead company in a new initiative intended to subsume the > web and other existing net services such as email in a > broader, more comprehensive, easier to use, and more > intelligent information system. > > This iniative is called "World Wide Outline" , and I'd like > to invite all interestd members of this list, and especially > those interested in work such as Dougals Engelbert's , to > read about it and download our experimental early alpha- > client to test drive it from www.worldwideoutline.net > > Once you've exaimined this early instantiation, I'll be glad > to provide information on features such as `superlinking', > `user customzied databases', and other elements to be > incorporated shortly when we resume coding. > > Looking forward to hearing from you, > > Eric Sommer, CEO ADM P.S. Please, please use the help > system in the wwo client; it's not rocket science, but you > may not find your way around without it. > > > > > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1622946354-1031287796=:90058 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi Eric,

Thanks for your queries below.  Without familiarization with our demo (which can be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net ), it's difficult to present a concise - and intelligible - response to your questions, just as explaining the advantages and impacts of html would be difficult in the case of an interogator not familiar with the web.  Because of its character as new kind of global information management system, it is difficult to reduce wwo to `three main benefits'.  Howerver, one could say that it will provide a magnitude greater ease and power in: 

1. Creation and capture of  information of all kinds.  All information, and all file types can be manipulated through, viewed within, and published to the net from within a single WWO client.

2. Publishing and sharing information in a global system.  The *same* WWO client is seamlessly used to create and organize information on the desktop, to interlink it with previously published datastructures already online, and to publish it. WWO's experimental client allows for all file types to be drag-and-drop linked to its outliner topics, and version 2.0 will extend this same drag and drop functionality to allowing full linking of all file types to the text in the internal textcards/pages.

3. Hopefully, WWO will benefit all users on the planet who seek better means of organizing, accessing, and sharing information.  You asked about how `web usage' would benefit, but WWO is a post-web technology which includes but subsumes the web.  (Viewing the demo will clarify this point.)

Finally, as you asked about licenses and the business model, I can't go into detail here, but in general we hold with Gandhi that  "True development puts first those that society puts last."  So, while final decisions have not been made, we will probably 1) Provide free licensing of all levels of WWO related technology to a wide variety, and perhaps to all, NGO's on the planet, from Green Peace to women's shelters to the UN; and 2) Provide free access to entry-level WWO technology to all people.   Licensing of `enterprise' and `professional' level versions, and of an ADM/WWO server product, will probably be sold.  (Facilities for integration with other `people's products', such as openoffice, may also be included.)

That's it for now; thanks for your interest.  And I look forward to your comments and feedback on the WWO tech.

Cordially, Eric

Who do you expect will receive the most benefit from it,
alternatively, how would you charaterize the type of web
usage which stands to receive the most benefit?

=========

==========  WWO will, when completed, provide a means to

* What's the business model? What are you planning to give
away, and what are you planning to sell? (If you know.
If not, what alternatives have you considered?)

* What's the licensing strategy, if any?

ADM Staff wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of Advanced Data Management, which is
> the lead company in a new initiative intended to subsume the
> web and other existing net services such as email in a
> broader, more comprehensive, easier to use, and more
> intelligent information system.
>
> This iniative is called "World Wide Outline" , and I'd like
> to invite all interestd members of this list, and especially
> those interested in work such as Dougals Engelbert's , to
> read about it and download our experimental early alpha-
> client to test drive it from www.worldwideoutline.net
>
> Once you've exaimined this early instantiation, I'll be glad
> to provide information on features such as `superlinking',
> `user customzied databases', and other elements to be
> incorporated shortly when we resume coding.
>
> Looking forward to hearing from you,
>
> Eric Sommer, CEO ADM P.S. Please, please use the help
> system in the wwo client; it's not rocket science, but you
> may not find your way around without it.
>
>
>
>
>
> Advanced Data Management Systems
> Email: staff@adm21.net
> website: http://www.adm21.net
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
>
> Advanced Data Management Systems
> Email: staff@adm21.net
> website: http://www.adm21.net
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes





Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1622946354-1031287796=:90058-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 21:50:03 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 42FBB56FFA; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (smtp2.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.230]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D04F56FF9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 21:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux (cs662583-231.satx.rr.com [66.25.83.231]) by txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8657rRg004822; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 01:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Matthew Schneider To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org, ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] My apology, Re: Dougals Engelbert ?? Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:08:05 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <20020906030643.47925.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20020906030643.47925.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200209060008.05763.matsch@sasites.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Thursday 05 September 2002 22:06, ADM Staff wrote: > Hi Matthew, > I'm happy to have my typo below corrected but a mistake is no excuse fo= r > rudeness. I wish you had examined the WWO before sending this kind of > rebuke. `Spam', as I'm sure you know, is inappropriatge and unsolicite= d > material. I am not only a member of this list but WWO was influenced b= y, > and is relevant to, many issues involving data interconnectivity and > Douglas work on hypertext and other matters. Cordially, Eric Sommer Eric, I misread ADM as ADV and thence only gave your post a cursory review. I'l= l=20 make sure I read more closely next time. Please accept my apologies. Regards, Matthew A. Schneider From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 5 23:53:39 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EE14556FFA; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13703.mail.yahoo.com (web13703.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.136]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B00B56FF9 for ; Thu, 5 Sep 2002 23:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020906071138.90002.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [218.145.63.165] by web13703.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 00:11:38 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 00:11:38 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Main Advantages of WWO Technology (response to request) To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-64779283-1031296298=:89949" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-64779283-1031296298=:89949 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Eric, Thanks for your queries below. Without familiarization with our demo (which can be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net ), it's difficult to present a concise - and intelligible - response to your questions, just as explaining the advantages and impacts of html would be difficult in the case of an interogator not familiar with the web. Because of its character as new kind of global information management system, it is difficult to reduce wwo to `three main benefits'. Howerver, one could say that it will provide a magnitude greater ease and power in: 1. Creation and capture of information of all kinds. All information, and all file types can be manipulated through, viewed within, and published to the net from within a single WWO client. 2. Publishing and sharing information in a global system. The *same* WWO client is seamlessly used to create and organize information on the desktop, to interlink it with previously published datastructures already online, and to publish it. WWO's experimental client allows for all file types to be drag-and-drop linked to its outliner topics, and version 2.0 will extend this same drag and drop functionality to allowing full linking of all file types to the text in the internal textcards/pages. 3. Hopefully, WWO will benefit all users on the planet who seek better means of organizing, accessing, and sharing information. You asked about how `web usage' would benefit, but WWO is a post-web technology which includes but subsumes the web. (Viewing the demo will clarify this point.) Finally, as you asked about licenses and the business model, I can't go into detail here, but in general we hold with Gandhi that "True development puts first those that society puts last." So, while final decisions have not been made, we will probably 1) Provide free licensing of all levels of WWO related technology to a wide variety, and perhaps to all, NGO's on the planet, from Green Peace to women's shelters to the UN; and 2) Provide free access to entry-level WWO technology to all people. Licensing of `enterprise' and `professional' level versions, and of an ADM/WWO server product, will probably be sold. (Facilities for integration with other `people's products', such as openoffice, may also be included.) That's it for now; thanks for your interest. And I look forward to your comments and feedback on the WWO tech. Cordially, Eric Who do you expect will receive the most benefit from it, alternatively, how would you charaterize the type of web usage which stands to receive the most benefit? ========= ========== WWO will, when completed, provide a means to * What's the business model? What are you planning to give away, and what are you planning to sell? (If you know. If not, what alternatives have you considered?) * What's the licensing strategy, if any? ADM Staff wrote: > Hi there, > > I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of Advanced Data Management, which is > the lead company in a new initiative intended to subsume the > web and other existing net services such as email in a > broader, more comprehensive, easier to use, and more > intelligent information system. > > This iniative is called "World Wide Outline" , and I'd like > to invite all interestd members of this list, and especially > those interested in work such as Dougals Engelbert's , to > read about it and download our experimental early alpha- > client to test drive it from www.worldwideoutline.net > > Once you've exaimined this early instantiation, I'll be glad > to provide information on features such as `superlinking', > `user customzied databases', and other elements to be > incorporated shortly when we resume coding. > > Looking forward to hearing from you, > > Eric Sommer, CEO ADM P.S. Please, please use the help > system in the wwo client; it's not rocket science, but you > may not find your way around without it. > > > > > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-64779283-1031296298=:89949 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii


 

Hi Eric,

Thanks for your queries below.  Without familiarization with our demo (which can be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net ), it's difficult to present a concise - and intelligible - response to your questions, just as explaining the advantages and impacts of html would be difficult in the case of an interogator not familiar with the web.  Because of its character as new kind of global information management system, it is difficult to reduce wwo to `three main benefits'.  Howerver, one could say that it will provide a magnitude greater ease and power in: 

1. Creation and capture of  information of all kinds.  All information, and all file types can be manipulated through, viewed within, and published to the net from within a single WWO client.

2. Publishing and sharing information in a global system.  The *same* WWO client is seamlessly used to create and organize information on the desktop, to interlink it with previously published datastructures already online, and to publish it. WWO's experimental client allows for all file types to be drag-and-drop linked to its outliner topics, and version 2.0 will extend this same drag and drop functionality to allowing full linking of all file types to the text in the internal textcards/pages.

3. Hopefully, WWO will benefit all users on the planet who seek better means of organizing, accessing, and sharing information.  You asked about how `web usage' would benefit, but WWO is a post-web technology which includes but subsumes the web.  (Viewing the demo will clarify this point.)

Finally, as you asked about licenses and the business model, I can't go into detail here, but in general we hold with Gandhi that  "True development puts first those that society puts last."  So, while final decisions have not been made, we will probably 1) Provide free licensing of all levels of WWO related technology to a wide variety, and perhaps to all, NGO's on the planet, from Green Peace to women's shelters to the UN; and 2) Provide free access to entry-level WWO technology to all people.   Licensing of `enterprise' and `professional' level versions, and of an ADM/WWO server product, will probably be sold.  (Facilities for integration with other `people's products', such as openoffice, may also be included.)

That's it for now; thanks for your interest.  And I look forward to your comments and feedback on the WWO tech.

Cordially, Eric

Who do you expect will receive the most benefit from it,
alternatively, how would you charaterize the type of web
usage which stands to receive the most benefit?

=========

==========  WWO will, when completed, provide a means to

* What's the business model? What are you planning to give
away, and what are you planning to sell? (If you know.
If not, what alternatives have you considered?)

* What's the licensing strategy, if any?

ADM Staff wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of Advanced Data Management, which is
> the lead company in a new initiative intended to subsume the
> web and other existing net services such as email in a
> broader, more comprehensive, easier to use, and more
> intelligent information system.
>
> This iniative is called "World Wide Outline" , and I'd like
> to invite all interestd members of this list, and especially
> those interested in work such as Dougals Engelbert's , to
> read about it and download our experimental early alpha-
> client to test drive it from www.worldwideoutline.net
>
> Once you've exaimined this early instantiation, I'll be glad
> to provide information on features such as `superlinking',
> `user customzied databases', and other elements to be
> incorporated shortly when we resume coding.
>
> Looking forward to hearing from you,
>
> Eric Sommer, CEO ADM P.S. Please, please use the help
> system in the wwo client; it's not rocket science, but you
> may not find your way around without it.
>
>
>
>
>
> Advanced Data Management Systems
> Email: staff@adm21.net
> website: http://www.adm21.net
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
>
> Advanced Data Management Systems
> Email: staff@adm21.net
> website: http://www.adm21.net
>
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-64779283-1031296298=:89949-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 6 14:23:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8935656FFA; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C79C56FF9 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:23:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16442 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 15:40:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g86Lewi03236 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D79210D.C05AF61D@sun.com> Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:41:33 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] My apology, Re: Dougals Engelbert ?? References: <20020906030643.47925.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> <200209060008.05763.matsch@sasites.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by patan.sun.com id PAA16442 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Matthew Schneider wrote: > I misread ADM as ADV and thence only gave your post a cursory review. I= 'll > make sure I read more closely next time. Please accept my apologies. Way to go, Matt. As someone who wrote "=CBnglebart" instead of "Engelbart" an embarrassing number of times, I appreciate forebearance. (On the other hand, I wish it had been pointed out much sooner!) From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 6 14:34:50 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B735A56FFA; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4212056FF9 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:34:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11582 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g86Lqgi06060 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 14:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7923CC.D3E42A56@sun.com> Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 14:53:16 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Main Advantages of WWO Technology (response to request) References: <20020906044956.90175.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com id OAA11582 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org ADM Staff wrote: > Thanks for your queries below. Without familiarization with our demo > (which can be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net ), it's > difficult to present a concise - and intelligible - response to your > questions, That's the chicken and egg of an educational sell -- people have to understand that their will be advantages before they try it, but they won't *really* understand the benefits until they use it. It took me two years to boil down the advantages of outlining to a 30-second pitch that got people excited. I expect you'll go through a similar learning curve. Hopefully, this interaction gets you started in that direction. And as a case in point, I would note that following is actually a good start.... That said, I have to say that I really do need a good reason before I will commit the time to download, installing, and learn to use one demo among the hundreds that are clamoring for my attention. > ... Howerver, one could say that it will provide a magnitude greater > ease and power in: > > 1. Creation and capture of information of all kinds. All > information, and all file types can be manipulated through, > viewed within, and published to the net from within a single > WWO client. > Hmm. At first, it seemed I could do this in my browser, too. But it appears this is an authoring, environment, as well. So you are talking "seamless browsing and editing capabilities" ?? > 2. Publishing and sharing information in a global system. > The *same* WWO client is seamlessly used to create and > organize information on the desktop, to interlink it with > previously published datastructures already online, and to > publish it. WWO's experimental client allows for all file > types to be drag-and-drop linked to its outliner topics, and > version 2.0 will extend this same drag and drop > functionality to allowing full linking of all file types to > the text in the internal textcards/pages. > Sounds good. This text plus a screenshot on the web site would give me a good idea what's going on, and how it works. > 3. Hopefully, WWO will benefit all users on the planet who > seek better means of organizing, accessing, and sharing > information. > There is your audience. Put that right up front, so it grabs people. "If you organize, access, and share information, then you'll LOVE this.." (because...) > Finally, as you asked about licenses and the business > model, I can't go into detail here, but in general we hold > with Gandhi that "True development puts first those that > society puts last." So, while final decisions have not been > made, we will probably 1) Provide free licensing of all > levels of WWO related technology to a wide variety, and > perhaps to all, NGO's on the planet, from Green Peace to > women's shelters to the UN; and 2) Provide free access to > entry-level WWO technology to all people. Licensing of > `enterprise' and `professional' level versions, and of an > ADM/WWO server product, will probably be sold. (Facilities > for integration with other `people's products', such as > openoffice, may also be included.) > Cool. Personally, I am infinitely grateful to Nash for creating a mathematical proof that true maximums are achieved only when one seeks to maximize *both* his own good *and* the good of the whole. It's something I've long held to be true, but I never had a mathematical theory (equilibrium theory) to back it up before. I am also extremely grateful to the movie, =C4 Beautiful Mind, for bringing it to my attention. That movie should be required viewing for every executive on the planet, and they should be required to write an essay on why it is a good idea, and how it applies to their company. In otherwords, I have no objection to a company making a profit -- as long as they are doing it in a way that achieves maximum benefit to society, as well. Luck. eric From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 6 16:36:23 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6BCCD56FFA; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13708.mail.yahoo.com (web13708.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.141]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 00D9D56FF9 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020906235421.91113.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [218.145.63.165] by web13708.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:54:21 PDT Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:54:21 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric to Eric: Motives for accessing the World Wide Outline To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1934424898-1031356461=:90946" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1934424898-1031356461=:90946 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Eric, As you asked for slogan to motivate you to download ADM and access the demo for the World Wide Outline, I'll suggest "Beyond markup languages - The data-linking power of the web X 3!" Of course, this slogan only works for people like yourself who are familiar with markup, etc. A general introduction to the wwo is provided at the site. Thanks for your feedback below. Judging by your comments, I failed to make clear in my initial email(s) that ADM is, in fact, already an established company. Our product, ADM, is a super-powerful outliner which also provides linking of all file types, and internal display of urls' in its own internal browser, as well as containing its own internal document screens. The kinds of marketing and promotion you advocate are, therefore, quite familiar to us, and if you check our commercial website at www.adm21.net , you'll find text similar to that which you picked out - only much punchier - in our ad copy. Technically, this is sometimes called the `unique selling proposition' , and its certainly present in our approach to selling ADM. Moreover, we use mailing databases, which segment customers and prospective customers in various ways. Part of my background is, in fact, in professional marketing, but I didn't expect it to be a concern in this venue, so didn't bother to discuss it previously. Finally, I urge you NOT to download ADM from the commerical site, but rather to do so from www.worldwideoutline.net , as the version there is enhanced for use on the world wide outline. ADM is, as indicated above a commerical product, but the WWO is still in alpha, though you will find information about setting up your own o-experimental o-site in the exisitng demo. Hope the above serves to somewhat clarify matters, Eric ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org ADM Staff wrote: > Thanks for your queries below. Without familiarization with our demo > (which can be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net ), it's > difficult to present a concise - and intelligible - response to your > questions, That's the chicken and egg of an educational sell -- people have to understand that their will be advantages before they try it, but they won't *really* understand the benefits until they use it. It took me two years to boil down the advantages of outlining to a 30-second pitch that got people excited. I expect you'll go through a similar learning curve. Hopefully, this interaction gets you started in that direction. And as a case in point, I would note that following is actually a good start.... That said, I have to say that I really do need a good reason before I will commit the time to download, installing, and learn to use one demo among the hundreds that are clamoring for my attention. > ... Howerver, one could say that it will provide a magnitude greater > ease and power in: > > 1. Creation and capture of information of all kinds. All > information, and all file types can be manipulated through, > viewed within, and published to the net from within a single > WWO client. > Hmm. At first, it seemed I could do this in my browser, too. But it appears this is an authoring, environment, as well. So you are talking "seamless browsing and editing capabilities" ?? > 2. Publishing and sharing information in a global system. > The *same* WWO client is seamlessly used to create and > organize information on the desktop, to interlink it with > previously published datastructures already online, and to > publish it. WWO's experimental client allows for all file > types to be drag-and-drop linked to its outliner topics, and > version 2.0 will extend this same drag and drop > functionality to allowing full linking of all file types to > the text in the internal textcards/pages. > Sounds good. This text plus a screenshot on the web site would give me a good idea what's going on, and how it works. > 3. Hopefully, WWO will benefit all users on the planet who > seek better means of organizing, accessing, and sharing > information. > There is your audience. Put that right up front, so it grabs people. "If you organize, access, and share information, then you'll LOVE this.." (because...) > Finally, as you asked about licenses and the business > model, I can't go into detail here, but in general we hold > with Gandhi that "True development puts first those that > society puts last." So, while final decisions have not been > made, we will probably 1) Provide free licensing of all > levels of WWO related technology to a wide variety, and > perhaps to all, NGO's on the planet, from Green Peace to > women's shelters to the UN; and 2) Provide free access to > entry-level WWO technology to all people. Licensing of > `enterprise' and `professional' level versions, and of an > ADM/WWO server product, will probably be sold. (Facilities > for integration with other `people's products', such as > openoffice, may also be included.) > Cool. Personally, I am infinitely grateful to Nash for creating a mathematical proof that true maximums are achieved only when one seeks to maximize *both* his own good *and* the good of the whole. It's something I've long held to be true, but I never had a mathematical theory (equilibrium theory) to back it up before. I am also extremely grateful to the movie, Ä Beautiful Mind, for bringing it to my attention. That movie should be required viewing for every executive on the planet, and they should be required to write an essay on why it is a good idea, and how it applies to their company. In otherwords, I have no objection to a company making a profit -- as long as they are doing it in a way that achieves maximum benefit to society, as well. Luck. eric Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1934424898-1031356461=:90946 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi Eric,

As you asked for slogan to motivate you to download ADM and access the demo for the World Wide Outline, I'll suggest "Beyond markup languages - The data-linking power of the web X 3!"  Of course, this slogan only works for people like yourself who are familiar with markup, etc.  A general introduction to the wwo is provided at the site. 

Thanks for your feedback below.  Judging by your comments, I failed to make clear in my initial email(s) that ADM is, in fact, already an established company.  Our product, ADM, is a super-powerful outliner which also provides linking of all file types, and internal display of urls' in its own internal browser, as well as containing its own internal document screens.  The kinds of marketing and promotion you advocate are, therefore, quite familiar to us, and if you check our commercial website at www.adm21.net , you'll find text similar to that which you picked out - only much punchier - in our ad copy.  Technically, this is sometimes called the `unique selling proposition' , and its certainly present in our approach to selling ADM.  Moreover, we use mailing databases, which segment customers and prospective customers in various ways.  Part of my background is, in fact, in professional marketing, but I didn't expect it to be a concern in this venue, so didn't bother to discuss it previously.  

Finally, I urge you NOT to download ADM from the commerical site, but rather to do so from www.worldwideoutline.net , as the version there is enhanced for use on the world wide outline.   ADM is, as indicated above a commerical product, but the WWO is still in alpha, though you will find information about setting up your own o-experimental o-site in the exisitng demo.

Hope the above serves to somewhat clarify matters,

Eric

ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org


ADM Staff wrote:

> Thanks for your queries below. Without familiarization with our demo
> (which can be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net ), it's
> difficult to present a concise - and intelligible - response to your
> questions,

That's the chicken and egg of an educational sell -- people have to
understand that their will be advantages before they try it, but they
won't *really* understand the benefits until they use it. It took me two
years to boil down the advantages of outlining to a 30-second pitch that
got people excited. I expect you'll go through a similar learning curve.
Hopefully, this interaction gets you started in that direction. And as a
case in point, I would note that following is actually a good start....

That said, I have to say that I really do need a good reason before I
will commit the time to download, installing, and learn to use one demo
among the hundreds that are clamoring for my attention.

> ... Howerver, one could say that it will provide a magnitude greater
> ease and power in:
>
> 1. Creation and capture of information of all kinds. All
> information, and all file types can be manipulated through,
> viewed within, and published to the net from within a single
> WWO client.
>
Hmm. At first, it seemed I could do this in my browser, too. But it
appears this is an authoring, environment, as well. So you are talking
"seamless browsing and editing capabilities" ??

> 2. Publishing and sharing information in a global system.
> The *same* WWO client is seamlessly used to create and
> organize information on the desktop, to interlink it with
> previously published datastructures already online, and to
> publish it. WWO's experimental client allows for all file
> types to be drag-and-drop linked to its outliner topics, and
> version 2.0 will extend this same drag and drop
> functionality to allowing full linking of all file types to
> the text in the internal textcards/pages.
>
Sounds good. This text plus a screenshot on the web site would give me a

good idea what's going on, and how it works.

> 3. Hopefully, WWO will benefit all users on the planet who
> seek better means of organizing, accessing, and sharing
> information.
>
There is your audience. Put that right up front, so it grabs people. "If
you
organize, access, and share information, then you'll LOVE this.."
(because...)

> Finally, as you asked about licenses and the business
> model, I can't go into detail here, but in general we hold
> with Gandhi that "True development puts first those that
> society puts last." So, while final decisions have not been
> made, we will probably 1) Provide free licensing of all
> levels of WWO related technology to a wide variety, and
> perhaps to all, NGO's on the planet, from Green Peace to
> women's shelters to the UN; and 2) Provide free access to
> entry-level WWO technology to all people. Licensing of
> `enterprise' and `professional' level versions, and of an
> ADM/WWO server product, will probably be sold. (Facilities
> for integration with other `people's products', such as
> openoffice, may also be included.)
>
Cool. Personally, I am infinitely grateful to Nash for creating a
mathematical
proof that true maximums are achieved only when one seeks to maximize
*both* his own good *and* the good of the whole. It's something I've
long
held to be true, but I never had a mathematical theory (equilibrium
theory)
to back it up before.

I am also extremely grateful to the movie, Ä Beautiful Mind, for
bringing it
to my attention. That movie should be required viewing for every
executive
on the planet, and they should be required to write an essay on why it
is a
good idea, and how it applies to their company.

In otherwords, I have no objection to a company making a profit -- as
long
as they are doing it in a way that achieves maximum benefit to society,
as
well.

Luck.
eric



Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes --0-1934424898-1031356461=:90946-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 6 16:39:08 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 45E7D56FFB; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C2E5356FFA for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA00375 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 17:57:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g86Nv1i04489 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 16:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7940F0.2739D30E@sun.com> Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2002 16:57:36 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric to Eric: Motives for accessing the World Wide Outline References: <20020906235421.91113.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by kathmandu.sun.com id RAA00375 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Cool. Thanks for the clarifications. ADM Staff wrote: > Hi Eric, > > As you asked for slogan to motivate you to download ADM and access the > demo for the World Wide Outline, I'll suggest "Beyond markup languages > - The data-linking power of the web X 3!" Of course, this slogan only > works for people like yourself who are familiar with markup, etc. A > general introduction to the wwo is provided at the site. > > Thanks for your feedback below. Judging by your comments, I failed to > make clear in my initial email(s) that ADM is, in fact, already an > established company. Our product, ADM, is a super-powerful outliner > which also provides linking of all file types, and internal display of > urls' in its own internal browser, as well as containing its own > internal document screens. The kinds of marketing and promotion you > advocate are, therefore, quite familiar to us, and if you check our > commercial website at www.adm21.net , you'll find text similar to that > which you picked out - only much punchier - in our ad copy. > Technically, this is sometimes called the `unique selling proposition' > , and its certainly present in our approach to selling ADM. Moreover, > we use mailing databases, which segment customers and prospective > customers in various ways. Part of my background is, in fact, in > professional marketing, b! ut! I didn't expect it to be a concern in > this venue, so didn't bother to discuss it previously. > > Finally, I urge you NOT to download ADM from the commerical site, but > rather to do so from www.worldwideoutline.net , as the version there > is enhanced for use on the world wide outline. ADM is, as indicated > above a commerical product, but the WWO is still in alpha, though you > will find information about setting up your own o-experimental o-site > in the exisitng demo. > > Hope the above serves to somewhat clarify matters, > > Eric > > ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > > > ADM Staff wrote: > > > Thanks for your queries below. Without familiarization with our demo > > > (which can be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net ), it's > > difficult to present a concise - and intelligible - response to your > > > questions, > > That's the chicken and egg of an educational sell -- people have to > understand that their will be advantages before they try it, but they > won't *really* understand the benefits until they use it. It took me > two > years to boil down the advantages of outlining to a 30-second pitch > that > got people excited. I expect you'll go through a similar learning > curve. > Hopefully, this interaction gets you started in that direction. And as > a > case in point, I would note that following is actually a good > start.... > > That said, I have to say that I really do need a good reason before I > will commit the time to download, installing, and learn to use one > demo > ! am! ong the hundreds that are clamoring for my attention. > > > ... Howerver, one could say that it will provide a magnitude greater > > > ease and power in: > > > > 1. Creation and capture of information of all kinds. All > > information, and all file types can be manipulated through, > > viewed within, and published to the net from within a single > > WWO client. > > > Hmm. At first, it seemed I could do this in my browser, too. But it > appears this is an authoring, environment, as well. So you are talking > > "seamless browsing and editing capabilities" ?? > > > 2. Publishing and sharing information in a global system. > > The *same* WWO client is seamlessly used to create and > > organize information on the desktop, to interlink it with > > previously published datastructures already online, and to > > publish it. WWO's experimental client allows for all file > > types to be drag-and-drop linked to its outliner topi! cs! , and > > version 2.0 will extend this same drag and drop > > functionality to allowing full linking of all file types to > > the text in the internal textcards/pages. > > > Sounds good. This text plus a screenshot on the web site would give me > a > > good idea what's going on, and how it works. > > > 3. Hopefully, WWO will benefit all users on the planet who > > seek better means of organizing, accessing, and sharing > > information. > > > There is your audience. Put that right up front, so it grabs people. > "If > you > organize, access, and share information, then you'll LOVE this.." > (because...) > > > Finally, as you asked about licenses and the business > > model, I can't go into detail here, but in general we hold > > with Gandhi that "True development puts first those that > > society puts last." So, while final decisions have not been > > made, we will probably 1) Provide free licensing of all > > lev! el! s of WWO related technology to a wide variety, and > > perhaps to all, NGO's on the planet, from Green Peace to > > women's shelters to the UN; and 2) Provide free access to > > entry-level WWO technology to all people. Licensing of > > `enterprise' and `professional' level versions, and of an > > ADM/WWO server product, will probably be sold. (Facilities > > for integration with other `people's products', such as > > openoffice, may also be included.) > > > Cool. Personally, I am infinitely grateful to Nash for creating a > mathematical > proof that true maximums are achieved only when one seeks to maximize > *both* his own good *and* the good of the whole. It's something I've > long > held to be true, but I never had a mathematical theory (equilibrium > theory) > to back it up before. > > I am also extremely grateful to the movie, =C4 Beautiful Mind, for > bringing it > to my attention. That movie should be required viewing for ev! er! y > executive > on the planet, and they should be required to write an essay on why it > > is a > good idea, and how it applies to their company. > > In otherwords, I have no objection to a company making a profit -- as > long > as they are doing it in a way that achieves maximum benefit to > society, > as > well. > > Luck. > eric > > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 6 19:52:36 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7BE7C56FFA; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 19:52:35 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from maynard.mail.mindspring.net (maynard.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.243]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE48D56FF9 for ; Fri, 6 Sep 2002 19:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-11fadi2.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.245.54.66] helo=D9KP0711) by maynard.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17nVzP-0003vt-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 06 Sep 2002 23:10:28 -0400 From: "Mei Lin Fung" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Friday Titbit: Linux the Movie Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2002 19:57:40 -0700 Organization: MLF Associates Inc. Message-ID: <000001c2561a$54d419c0$2002a8c0@D9KP0711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C255DF.A87541C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C255DF.A87541C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How the world is changing.. could we ever have imagined 20 years ago, first the appearance of a best selling book and an academy award winning movie about .. A schizophrenic mathematician and now... "The Code" or Linux the Movie Doug was visited today by the director Hannu Puttonen who provided him with a video tape of "The Code" which is a movie about how Linux emerged. >From the synopsis: //www.linuxthemovie.com "The hero of the film is the archetype of our times: the programmer. In The Code programming is seen partially as an art form." For more on this movie, look at http://www.linuxthemovie.com What a wonderful world we live in, despite the recession, talk of war, difficulties of sustainable development, we have art to remind us of the tapestry, sometimes hidden and forgotten, that we weave with our lives. Talking about videos, watching with my daughter the video Prince of Egypt, there is a scene, where his future father in law tells Moses that he is a thread in the tapestry of life, which resonates for me with the quote Jack Park put in his Extreme Markup lecture Upon this gifted age, in its dark hour, Rains from the sky a meteoric shower Of facts..... They lie unquestioned, uncombined. Wisdom enough to leech us of our ill Is daily spun, but there exists no loom To weave it into fabric... Edna St. Vincent Millay Bemusedly! TGIF! Mei Lin Fung ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C255DF.A87541C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

How the world is changing…… could we ever have imagined 20 years = ago, first the appearance of a best selling book and an academy award winning movie = about …. A schizophrenic mathematician and now…..

 

“The Code”   or Linux the Movie

 

 

Doug was visited today by the director Hannu Puttonen who provided him with a = video tape of “The Code” which is a movie about how Linux = emerged.

 

From the synopsis: //www.linuxthemovie.com

 

“The hero of the film is the archetype of our times: the programmer. In The = Code programming is seen partially as an art form.”

 

 

For more on this movie, look at http://www.linuxthemovie.com

 

 

 

What a wonderful world we live in, despite the recession, talk of war, = difficulties of sustainable development, we have art to remind us of the tapestry, = sometimes hidden and forgotten, that we weave with our lives.

Talking about videos, watching with my daughter the video Prince of Egypt, there = is a scene, where his future father in law tells Moses that he is a thread in = the tapestry of life, which resonates for me with the quote Jack Park put in his Extreme Markup = lecture

 

 

 

Upon this gifted age, in its = dark hour,

Rains from the sky a meteoric = shower

    Of facts..... They lie = unquestioned, uncombined.

Wisdom enough to leech us of our = ill

Is daily spun, but there exists no = loom

   To weave it into = fabric...

           = ;            =       Edna St. = Vincent Millay

 

 

 

 

 

Bemusedly! TGIF!

 

Mei Lin = Fung

 

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C255DF.A87541C0-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 7 08:34:57 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1DC7656FF3; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 08:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.chariot.net.au (mail.chariot.net.au [203.87.95.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 499BD56FF2 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 08:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steves-imac.local. (ppp-177.cust203-87-114.ghr.chariot.net.au [203.87.114.177]) by mail.chariot.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 163D217FFC7 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 01:22:55 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 01:22:58 +0930 Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric to Eric: Motives for accessing the World Wide Outline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) From: stephen white To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20020906235421.91113.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Saturday, September 7, 2002, at 09:24 AM, ADM Staff wrote: > As you asked for slogan to motivate you to=A0download ADM and access = the=20 > demo What gets me interested is screenshots, and lots of them... -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 7 09:16:03 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5001456FF3; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 09:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FAA956FF2 for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 09:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020907163403.UXER14182.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@sony> for ; Sat, 7 Sep 2002 16:34:03 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020907093032.024cbac0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 09:31:08 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] FTC and Spam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://slashdot.org/articles/02/09/07/1433250.shtml?tid=111 "Burl Ives writes "See this CNN Article. 'The FTC encourages consumers to forward any spam they receive to the e-mail address uce@ftc.gov'. I'd say if they've posted their e-mail on the web, they are probably getting as much as the rest of us already, which isn't to say I'm not hoping to see some discussion of using the statistical spam sorters to auto forward a lot to them in encouragement..." I've been using SpamAssassin for some time now with excellent results. Perhaps now I need to have my spam folder auto-forward to the FTC as well. " --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 8 10:24:47 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4B92656FF3; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA9A256FF2 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020908174247.KJFY25823.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 17:42:47 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020908103929.01f796c0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:39:51 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: elohimjl > >>From: Ari Lampinen >>To: Inesnet >>Subject: 9/11/02: USA evolved as #1 rogue nation >> >>USA Today had a cover story on August 14 2002 on the sentiments of >>Bush administration policy across the world. It included a photo of a >>demonstration in London with a large US map with text "#1 ROGUE NATION". >> >>Orwellian language was also used by International Herald >>Tribune in its editorial on September 7-8 2002 on the results of the >>Johannesburg World Summit on Sustainable Development: they quoted somebody >>as calling USA and OPEC alliance as "AXIS OF OIL". Behind this, as the >>editorial puts it was that "the conference was diminished by the >>unenthusiastic participation of the United States" and the OPEC/USA cartel >>succeeded in their goal "to oppose clear and binding targets to >>increase the use of solar and wind power". >> >>The renewable energy issue was the last one to be agreed in the WSSD Plan >>of Implementation. It was the most important thing for the Bush >>administration not to have any targets and timetables for the energy >>sector transformation towards sustainable development. Because the opposite >>was a top priority for the EU this issue was settled only after US succeeded >>in getting G77, i.e. the group of virtually all developing countries to >>support its stand in exchange of having targets included for health >>sector, another major theme of the summit where US had blocked concrete >>action until the tradeoff. >> >>As one EU negotiator put it, the USA is the main stumbling block of >>international negotiations. >> >>The continuation of the selfish unilateralism of the Bush administration >>and its faithful mate Australia was recognized by the audience of the final >>plenary of the WSSD in September 4, in the reactions to the speeches of >>parties given after the adoption of the Plan of Implementation. All except >>the two countries received applauds. Australia was the only country whose >>final speech received total silence. And the USA was the only one that >>was greeted with spontaneous boos from the audience of ministers, diplomats >>and stakeholders from almost 200 countries. This was the second time I >>witnessed this code of diplomatic conduct: in Bonn climate conference >>last year, when the political concensus of the Kyoto protocol details was >>reached with USA the only country out of 179 parties to disagree, the US >>speech was the only one receiving booing and all the other were applauded to. >> >>In its intervention after the adoption of the WSSD Plan of Implementation >>USA made several reservations including: >>- USA does not recognize the Rio principle #7, i.e. common and >> differentiated responsibilities. It means that USA regards unfair that >> they would be expected to do more than developing countries to fight >> environmental and development problems. >>- USA does not recognize the United Nations target of 0.7% of GDP to >> official development aid, or any other ODA target. >>- USA interprets that the text regarding corporate accountability >> improvements does not require any new actions. >>- USA announces that it will not accept any of the biodiversity text to >> evolve into legally binding commitments. And they also gave the >> impression that this applies to rest of the text as well. >>And USA announced that they take sustainable development very seriously. >> >>The official plenary speech of Colin Powell earlier the same day had the >>same attitude and it was interrupted several times by loud booing. The >>Wall Street Journal described in its editorial September 6-8 these >>incidents the following way: "How little interest some of the delegates >>had in a rational discussion of their first principles was on display >>Wednesday, when US Secretary of State Colin Powell was jeered and >>interrupted as he attempted to address the US approach to environmental >>issues and economic growth." For Wall Street Journal the purpose of >>the WSSD was to "develop international environmental bureaucracy" in the >>name of "phantom threats" with the result of "keeping the poor from >>improving their lot". >> >>It is necessary to note that the business and industry sector did not >>share the US views in the WSSD. On the contrary, they strongly promoted >>corporate accountability and targeted actions in most areas. >> >>Thus, it is exceptionally small minority of people that the Bush >>administration has so strongly devoted to serve, with exceptionally little >>consideration of the rest. >> >> >>Regards, >>Ari Lampinen >>Finnish society for environmental sciences > >-- >elohimjl --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 8 10:29:23 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B2F2356FF9; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D9A256FF3 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 10:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020908174721.NFQS9751.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@sony> for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 17:47:21 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020908104353.01f7bbc0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:44:26 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: World Summit on Sustainable Development (WSSD): 22 new items Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: dgAlert@developmentgateway.org > >Content update - World Summit on Sustainable Development (WSSD) on the >Development Gateway >------------------------- >22 new resources have been added to World Summit on Sustainable >Development (WSSD) on the Development Gateway >http://www.developmentgateway.org/wssd > >Too much e-mail? See how to change your settings at the bottom of this >message. >-------------------------------------------------- > >1. Fueling the Future An analysis of renewable energy supplies >negotiations at the WSSD >2. Water, NGOs and WSSD Success Interview with Charles Secrett, Executive >Director of Friends of the Earth >3. UN's view of what needs to be done in health to improve sustainable >development >4. Interview: Norway's Hilde Frafjord Johnson, Minister of International >Development >5. "The North-South Pact" -- EC President Prodi's Speech at the WSSD >6. WSSD Draft of Political Declaration >7. Statements from Heads of State and Governments at the WSSD >8. World Leaders Warn of Dangereous Future if Summit Fails >9. "Rio Did Not Work" - Interview with the Head of UNDP >10. Human rights must be a guiding principle in sustainable development >11. Struggling to Agree >12. ActionAid report exposes damaging effects of subsidies >13. UN University Report on International Sustainable Development Governance >14. Sustainable Development Update >15. World Summit: Lack of action on poverty -- A Taiwan News Editorial >16. WSSD Political Declaration >17. Global Development Plan A Flop, say Activists >18. The environmentalist movement is dead >19. Summit Targets, a Financial Times article >20. DG Supachai underlines WTO's contribution to sustainable development >21. UN Report Highlights Urgent Need to Address Damaging Trends in Development >22. Water Security: a Preliminary Assessment of Policy Progress Since Rio >------------------------- > >1. Fueling the Future An analysis of renewable energy supplies >negotiations at the WSSD >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250696&versio >n_id=143901 >In this article written for Reason Magazine (28 Aug), Ronald Bailey, the >author of Global Warming and Other Myths, asks what energy sources will >fuel the 21st century. Arguing that the future of the world's energy >supplies is a key issue in the WSSD agenda, Ronald ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 1 Sep 2002 > >2. Water, NGOs and WSSD Success Interview with Charles Secrett, Executive >Director of Friends of the Earth >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250705&versio >n_id=143907 >In this Daily Summit interview (31 Aug), Charles Secrett, Executive >Director of Friends of the Earth, England and Wales and Northern Ireland, >reveals his views on the U.S. position on water and sanitation issues at >the summit, the NGOs contributions to the summit ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 1 Sep 2002 > >3. UN's view of what needs to be done in health to improve sustainable >development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250717&versio >n_id=143922 >This UN report, prepared for the WSSD (Aug 2002), addresses the role of >health in sustainable development. The report includes proposals for >targeted actions in health, one of the five key areas of the WEHAB >initiative - covering Water and sanitation, Energy, Health ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 1 Sep 2002 > >4. Interview: Norway's Hilde Frafjord Johnson, Minister of International >Development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250720&versio >n_id=143924 >In this interview (31 Aug), Hilde Frafjord Johnson explains Norways main >concerns at the WSSD and describes one of the countrys roles in >Johannesburg: Norway will try to play a role in bridging the gap that >often is developed between the North and the South ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 1 Sep 2002 > >5. "The North-South Pact" -- EC President Prodi's Speech at the WSSD >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250789&versio >n_id=143967 >In this speech given at Johannesburg (2 Sep), President of the European >Commission Romano Prodi stressed the importance of multilateral >initiatives to reduce poverty and enhance environmental protection. Mr. >Prodi discussed the main EU proposals at the WSSD and ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 2 Sep 2002 > >6. WSSD Draft of Political Declaration >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250794&versio >n_id=143969 >This draft of the WSSD political declaration was presented on September 2, >2002, by the Summit's Chairman. This draft, the result of negotiations >among government delegations, includes the plan of action to be embraced >by all nations in order to enhance sustainable ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 2 Sep 2002 > >7. Statements from Heads of State and Governments at the WSSD >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250797&versio >n_id=143971 >This UN document summarizes the key points of the opening addresses and >statements of heads of state and governments at the WSSD plenary session >on September 2, 2002. Kofi Annan, UN Secretary General, opened the plenary >session, and invited the world leaders to ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 2 Sep 2002 > >8. World Leaders Warn of Dangereous Future if Summit Fails >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250806&versio >n_id=143978 >This 2 September, 2002 BBC article discusses concerns raised at WSSD by >world leaders, who warned of a dangerous future for the planet unless >decisive action is taken to tackle poverty and protect the environment. >Contributed by Ashish Kotamkar on 3 Sep 2002 > >9. "Rio Did Not Work" - Interview with the Head of UNDP >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250892&versio >n_id=144030 >In this Terraviva interview (2 Sep), Mark Malloch Brown, the head of the >United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), explains why the deal reached >a the 1992 Earth Summit in Rio de Janeiro was not sufficient to enhance >sustainable development. Mr. Brown suggests ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 3 Sep 2002 > >10. Human rights must be a guiding principle in sustainable development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250897&versio >n_id=144032 >This recent news release from the Canadian-based organization Rights & >Democracy condemns the exclusion of human rights issues from the draft of >the WSSD final declaration and suggests that human rights should be a >central principle for all new policies on world ... >Contributed by Vanessa von Struensee on 3 Sep 2002 > >11. Struggling to Agree >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=250948&versio >n_id=144066 >This article in The Economist (3 Sep) analyses the position of some of the >WSSD delegations on key summit issues that will be included in the final >summit text. The article explains the important role played by the >business community throughout the summit and ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 3 Sep 2002 > >12. ActionAid report exposes damaging effects of subsidies >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251146&versio >n_id=144196 >In its report, "Farmgate: the developmental impact of agricultural >subsidies", ActionAid uses examples from the wheat and sugar sectors to >expose the double standards and damaging effect of subsidies. Case studies >from Pakistan, Kenya, Indonesia, Nigeria and Swaziland ... >Contributed by Tony Durham on 4 Sep 2002 > >13. UN University Report on International Sustainable Development Governance >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251233&versio >n_id=144250 >This UNU report summarizes the collaborative research of a group of >scholars from around the globe. Their collective work identifies the gaps >and weaknesses within the current system of international environmental >governance and examines concrete proposals aimed ... >Contributed by Joseph Burgo on 4 Sep 2002 > >14. Sustainable Development Update >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251265&versio >n_id=144270 >This is the special issue of the Sustainable Development Update >newsletter focusing on the World Summit on Sustainable Development in >Johannesburg and it also includes various articles such as on organic >coffee, climate change etc... The Sustainable Development ... >Contributed by Riva Eskinazi on 4 Sep 2002 > >15. World Summit: Lack of action on poverty -- A Taiwan News Editorial >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251277&versio >n_id=144280 >This Taiwan News editorial article (3 Sep) explains why environmental >degradation will continue to worsen unless world leaders come up with a >coherent poverty reduction strategy. According to the editorial, an action >plan to promote environmental protection must ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 4 Sep 2002 > >16. WSSD Political Declaration >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251290&versio >n_id=144288 >This is the final text of the Political Declaration adopted on September >4, 2002, by negotiators from 192 countries participating at the WSSD. The >draft declaration includes many of the major themes debated throughout the >process including each of the WEHAB themes ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 5 Sep 2002 > >17. Global Development Plan A Flop, say Activists >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251429&versio >n_id=144380 >This "Terraviva" article (4 Sep) presents different points of views of >delegates from organizations such as Greenpeace, Oxfam International, >Eurodad, Worldwatch Institute, Friends of the Earth International and >World Resources Institute. Most of the criticism is ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 5 Sep 2002 > >18. The environmentalist movement is dead >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251497&versio >n_id=144424 >This opinion article in The Australian argues that the green movement is >dying. The article compares the role played by green activists at the >Earth Summit in Rio and at the WSSD. Ten years ago, at the Earth Summit in >Brazil, green concerns were at the top of ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 5 Sep 2002 > >19. Summit Targets, a Financial Times article >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251513&versio >n_id=144434 >This brief article in the Financial Times (5 Sep) advises strong critics >of the WSSD agreed targets not to underestimate the power of such targets. >They are not merely vague summit wording, according to the article, but >important guidelines for setting concrete ... >Contributed by Helder Ferreira do Vale on 5 Sep 2002 > >20. DG Supachai underlines WTO's contribution to sustainable development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251539&versio >n_id=144452 >Full text of the speech of the WTO Director-General Supachai Panitchpakdi >at the High-Level Special Roundtable of the World Summit on Sustainable >Development on 3 September 2002 in Johannesburg. In this speech Dr >Supachai Panitchpakdi stressed that WTO's contribution ... >Contributed by Todor Kolarov on 5 Sep 2002 > >21. UN Report Highlights Urgent Need to Address Damaging Trends in Development >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251826&versio >n_id=144633 >This UN report -- entitled "Global Challenge, Global Opportunity (Trends >in Sustainable Development" -- calls on world governments to greatly >increase their efforts in support of sustainable development, to better >manage resources in a rapidly developing world. ... >Contributed by Joseph Burgo on 6 Sep 2002 > >22. Water Security: a Preliminary Assessment of Policy Progress Since Rio >http://www.developmentgateway.org/content/item-detail?item_id=251849&versio >n_id=144647 >This 2001 report (pdf) was released by Unesco's World Water Assessment >Program as a contribution to the International Conference on Freshwater >held in Bonn (December 2001), and was also intended to contribute to both >the WSSD and 3d World Water forum. It reviews ... >Contributed by Joseph Burgo on 6 Sep 2002 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 8 17:21:27 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EB1FB56FF5; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 17:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (ms4.lga2.nytimes.com [64.15.247.148]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F9F056FF2 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 17:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from email4.lga2.nytimes.com (email4 [10.0.0.169]) by ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5444C5A5CF for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by email4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix, from userid 202) id 3FC33C403; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:32:56 -0400 (EDT) From: garyrichmond@rcn.com To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Message-Id: <20020909003256.3FC33C403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Date: Sun, 8 Sep 2002 20:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. The lead editorial of today's New York Times shows that at least one wing of the American press is capable of soundly criticizing Bush--even on the eve of the 9/11 tragedy. Jack Park wrote: From: elohimjl From: Ari Lampinen To: Inesnet Subject: 9/11/02: USA evolved as #1 rogue nation USA Today had a cover story on August 14 2002 on the sentiments of Bush administration policy across the world. It included a photo of a demonstration in London with a large US map with text "#1 ROGUE NATION". Orwellian language was also used by International Herald Tribune in its editorial on September 7-8 2002 on the results of the Johannesburg World Summit on Sustainable Development: they quoted somebody as calling USA and OPEC alliance as "AXIS OF OIL". Behind this, as the editorial puts it was that "the conference was diminished by the unenthusiastic participation of the United States" and the OPEC/USA cartel succeeded in their goal "to oppose clear and binding targets to increase the use of solar and wind power". The renewable energy issue was the last one to be agreed in the WSSD Plan of Implementation. It was the most important thing for the Bush administration not to have any targets and timetables for the energy sector transformation towards sustainable development. Because the opposite was a top priority for the EU this issue was settled only after US succeeded in getting G77, i.e. the group of virtually all developing countries to support its stand in exchange of having targets included for health sector, another major theme of the summit where US had blocked concrete action until the tradeoff. As one EU negotiator put it, the USA is the main stumbling block of international negotiations. The continuation of the selfish unilateralism of the Bush administration and its faithful mate Australia was recognized by the audience of the final plenary of the WSSD in September 4, in the reactions to the speeches of parties given after the adoption of the Plan of Implementation. All except the two countries received applauds. Australia was the only country whose final speech received total silence. And the USA was the only one that was greeted with spontaneous boos from the audience of ministers, diplomats and stakeholders from almost 200 countries. This was the second time I witnessed this code of diplomatic conduct: in Bonn climate conference last year, when the political concensus of the Kyoto protocol details was reached with USA the only country out of 179 parties to disagree, the US speech was the only one receiving booing and all the other were applauded to. In its intervention after the adoption of the WSSD Plan of Implementation USA made several reservations including: - USA does not recognize the Rio principle #7, i.e. common and differentiated responsibilities. It means that USA regards unfair that they would be expected to do more than developing countries to fight environmental and development problems. - USA does not recognize the United Nations target of 0.72232140f GDP to official development aid, or any other ODA target. - USA interprets that the text regarding corporate accountability improvements does not require any new actions. - USA announces that it will not accept any of the biodiversity text to evolve into legally binding commitments. And they also gave the impression that this applies to rest of the text as well. And USA announced that they take sustainable development very seriously. The official plenary speech of Colin Powell earlier the same day had the same attitude and it was interrupted several times by loud booing. The Wall Street Journal described in its editorial September 6-8 these incidents the following way: "How little interest some of the delegates had in a rational discussion of their first principles was on display Wednesday, when US Secretary of State Colin Powell was jeered and interrupted as he attempted to address the US approach to environmental issues and economic growth." For Wall Street Journal the purpose of the WSSD was to "develop international environmental bureaucracy" in the name of "phantom threats" with the result of "keeping the poor from improving their lot". It is necessary to note that the business and industry sector did not share the US views in the WSSD. On the contrary, they strongly promoted corporate accountability and targeted actions in most areas. Thus, it is exceptionally small minority of people that the Bush administration has so strongly devoted to serve, with exceptionally little consideration of the rest. Regards, Ari Lampinen Finnish society for environmental sciences -- elohimjl garyrichmond@rcn.com An Uncertain Trumpet September 8, 2002 President Bush was hardly alone in hoping that America would emerge from the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 a stronger and more cohesive nation. Yet nobody framed the challenge better than he did in his State of the Union address last January. "In the sacrifice of soldiers, the fierce brotherhood of firefighters, and the bravery and generosity of ordinary citizens," he said, "we have glimpsed what a new culture of responsibility could look like. We want to be a nation that serves goals larger than self. We've been offered a unique opportunity, and we must not let this moment pass." In later speeches he pounded on the same theme, urging Americans to forswear the "culture of selfishness" and embrace a "new ethic of responsibility." What has Mr. Bush made of that moment of opportunity, which may have passed us by? Sad to say, not much. Most of us had expected the country to be in a different place by now, and the fact that it is not can be attributed largely (though by no means exclusively) to Mr. Bush's failure to leverage the political and moral capital Sept. 11 provided. •  Mr. Bush had the words right. His problem was his failure to give them meaning, either because he did not know what had to be done or because what had to be done exceeded his political will. Sept. 11 summoned Americans to think differently about basic problems and to reach out to one another as never before. It was a moment to begin thinking about less wasteful energy policies, to envision new economic and social strategies, to examine programs of national service for the country's young people - in short, to entertain genuine sacrifices linked to an elevated vision of America's possibilities. Despite lots of oratory, however, no real sacrifice has been demanded, no vision offered. In his defense, Mr. Bush has been a busy and burdened man, and as the nation's leader, he has pushed us forward on several fronts. He has proposed a new architecture of homeland defense that could do much to rationalize our quarrelsome and porous security agencies. Abroad, he has prosecuted the complicated war on terrorism with patience and resolve. He certainly did not anticipate the explosion of exposés about appalling corporate behavior that has helped make 2002 a peculiarly "low dishonest" moment in American history (to borrow W. H. Auden's observation about the 1930's), instead of the year of fresh beginnings we wanted. Nevertheless, the most glaring missed opportunities are directly linked to the president. For instance, it is hard to imagine a sharper reminder of America's dependence on the volatile regimes of the Middle East for their oil than the events of Sept. 11. Yet instead of charting a new course, one requiring major investments in energy efficiency and the development of alternative energy sources - the two surest roads to greater energy independence - Mr. Bush clung stubbornly to the notion that the United States could drill its way to self-sufficiency. Absent presidential leadership, a timid and unimaginative Congress did little better, rejecting modest efforts to tighten fuel economy standards while showering producers of traditional fossil fuels with a staggering array of subsidies and tax breaks. Likewise, Sept. 11 seemed to have little impact on Mr. Bush's economic thinking. Everyone makes sacrifices in times of war, including leaders. Franklin Roosevelt, for instance, set aside cherished domestic initiatives after Pearl Harbor because he knew the country could not afford them. In a similar fashion, Mr. Bush might have postponed or even rolled back his tax cut and redeployed the money in more meritorious ways, perhaps to underwrite a serious program of foreign assistance to encourage the growth of democratic institutions in countries where poverty and corruption breed terrorists - and cynicism about an American government that supports tyrannical leaders. It would have asked much of Mr. Bush to ask him to give up a program so central to his thinking and political strategy. Yet in clinging to the tax cuts as if they were holy writ, as the former presidential adviser David Gergen recently observed on the Op-Ed page, the president has sent a clear signal to the public that we can have both war and business as usual. Finally, Mr. Bush has come up short in the one area where he seemed most determined to succeed: creating from the wreckage of the World Trade Center a new sense of purpose in our national life. Robert Putnam, an authority on American community life and the author of "Bowling Alone," argues that the attacks of Sept. 11 connected Americans in ways they have not been connected since World War II, creating a sense of solidarity that manifested itself in a heightened political consciousness, a surprising burst in trust for the federal government, an increase in racial and religious tolerance, and a rise in public-spiritedness in general. Mr. Bush himself noted the change immediately and marveled at what he called "the gathering momentum of millions of acts of decency and kindness." Unfortunately, though, the vehicle he created to capture this spirit and enlarge upon it - the U.S.A. Freedom Corps - seems to have drifted into irrelevance. It was little more than a gussied-up collection of existing programs to begin with, programs like John Kennedy's Peace Corps and Bill Clinton's AmeriCorps, and so far it has reached only a tiny fraction of America's young people. The administration hopes to double the size of the Peace Corps, to 14,000 from 7,000, and expand AmeriCorps to 75,000 from 50,000. Set against the manifest idealism inspired by Sept. 11, this seems a trivial response. Mr. Bush, as a longtime enemy of big government, seems unable to embrace wholeheartedly a challenge that requires making government programs grow. •  If surveys by Mr. Putnam and others are any guide, the mood of sacrifice is fading, the window of opportunity for bottling the patriotism generated by Sept. 11 slowly closing. Mr. Bush continues to extol the virtues of voluntary service, and this is admirable. But it is hardly enough to resist the erosion in the level of public engagement as people return to everyday routines. In retrospect, Mr. Bush would have been better served - and the civic enthusiasm of the moment would have had a far greater chance of surviving - if he had called for something truly bold, like a year of mandatory national service for everyone of college age. Of course, that might have kicked up a political storm. But of what use is political capital unless you spend it? Mr. Bush had plenty of capital to spend after Sept. 11. Sadly, on issue after issue, most of that capital is still in the bank, depreciating by the day. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/opinion/08SUN1.html?ex=1032531576&ei=1&en=b6a7bcd7e6051913 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 8 19:09:23 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 58AB056FFC; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 19:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDCB656FF2 for ; Sun, 8 Sep 2002 19:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-201-34.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.201.34] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #6) id 17oEGl-0003nT-00; Sun, 08 Sep 2002 22:27:19 -0400 Message-ID: <3D7C0704.4080109@rcn.com> Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 22:27:16 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: Refdesk Link of the Day:Forbes Global 500] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.forbes.com/2002/07/03/internationals.html Forbes Global magazine presents its annual list of the world's biggest companies, measured by revenue. Of the 500 companies on the Global 500, a total of 205 are from the U.S. Japan has the second-greatest number of entries, 92. Aggregate revenue of the Global 500: $13 trillion. Check out "The Complete List" Gary From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 05:31:30 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E3F685700F; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 05:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (ms4.lga2.nytimes.com [64.15.247.148]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3400257006 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 05:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from email4.lga2.nytimes.com (email4 [10.0.0.169]) by ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2735A633 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by email4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix, from userid 202) id 53745C436; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:42:59 -0400 (EDT) From: garyrichmond@rcn.com To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: Balancing Linux and Microsoft Message-Id: <20020909124259.53745C436@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. Another fine article by Steve Lohr. Bruce Peren's site: www .sincerechoice.org The case of Bruce Perens, who until recently was a strategist for Linux software at Hewlett-Packard, illustrates the balance that companies must achieve as they promote Linux but continue doing business with Microsoft. garyrichmond@rcn.com Balancing Linux and Microsoft September 9, 2002 By STEVE LOHR For nearly two years, Bruce Perens was a senior strategist for open-source software at Hewlett-Packard - an evangelist and rabble-rouser on behalf of a computing counterculture that is increasingly moving into the mainstream. Part of the job description, he was told, was to "challenge H.P. management." His last day as a Hewlett-Packard employee was 10 days ago. The parting was amicable, Mr. Perens said, but he was fired - "officially a termination," he noted. "It came after a long, long warning," Mr. Perens explained. "The thing that I did that was most hazardous for H.P. is the Microsoft-baiting I tend to do." A spokeswoman for Hewlett-Packard declined to comment on Mr. Perens's departure, citing company policy against making public statements about why individual employees leave. But, according to Mr. Perens, a handful of forces combined to make his exit from Hewlett-Packard inevitable. After it bought Compaq this year, the combined company became the largest single buyer of Windows for personal computers and data-serving computers, and thus more dependent on Microsoft. A rising threat to Microsoft is GNU Linux, an operating system distributed free and developed using the open-source model in which communities of programmers donate their labor to debug, modify and otherwise improve the code. After the merger with Compaq, Hewlett also became the largest vendor of Linux-based server computers, ahead of Dell Computer and I.B.M. Yet Hewlett's bet on Linux still pales compared with its reliance on Microsoft. And after the merger, it was mainly former Compaq executives who took senior positions overseeing the Linux business. In the premerger Hewlett, Mr. Perens, a leader in the open-source movement, enjoyed a lot of independence. When speaking to potential Hewlett customers on Wall Street and elsewhere, he would make the case for Linux, extolling it as a reliable and secure operating system that also allowed corporate customers to avoid being locked in to proprietary software like Microsoft's Windows or Sun Microsystems' Solaris. Mr. Perens did not have to make the pitch for Hewlett as supplier of choice for Linux-based servers, services or support. That chore fell to Hewlett's sales people. "It was a pretty unique job that existed because of the H.P. culture," Mr. Perens said. "I would still be at H.P., I think, except for the Compaq merger." Yet beyond the postmerger atmosphere at Hewlett, Mr. Perens also says that he had been taking a more outspoken stance against Microsoft recently. "Microsoft is out to crush Linux as a competitor," said Mr. Perens, who became truly galvanized after the emergence in May of a Microsoft-backed industry group, the Initiative for Software Choice. Besides the chip maker Intel, a close Microsoft ally, most of the other 20 or so members are smaller foreign companies or trade organizations. The software-choice group sees a threat in what it has identified as 66 legislative proposals, government statements and studies promoting open-source software in 25 countries, including Germany, Britain, China, Peru and Brazil. Some of those legislative proposals would require the use of open-source software in government, but most of the government steps are efforts to ensure there is an alternative to Microsoft in their critical software markets. The Microsoft-backed group says its purpose is to promote even-handed competition based on the merits of products, instead of a government bias for one kind of software. But as Mr. Perens sees it, the software-choice group has another agenda. "Its principles are nice-sounding words," he said, "but what they really say is, `Let's maintain the status quo.' " Mr. Perens has stepped in himself and started an effort to respond to the Microsoft-backed group. His initiative, called Sincere Choice, has its own Web site (www .sincerechoice.org), and its own set of principles. Mr. Perens asserts that governments could get huge cost savings and encourage the spread of open-source software by purchasing only software that operates well with other programs. Under his proposal, software companies would be required to supply software with open technology standards and open file formats that can be used by outside software developers, without having to pay royalties. "The royalty-free patent issue is crucial because the companies with huge software patent portfolios, especially Microsoft and I.B.M., have huge tolls booths on the Internet that can limit the spread of open-source software," Mr. Perens observed. Mr. Perens, 44, has regarded technology as a force for personal freedom since he was a teenager in the Long Island suburbs of New York. He was a ham radio enthusiast, ran a pirate radio station in Lido Beach, N.Y., and was briefly a "phone phreak," who could trick the telephone network into giving free long-distance calls. His introduction to computing came in college, when he worked at the radio station at the New York Institute of Technology in Old Westbury. Mr. Perens was a station manager, and one of his duties was to prepare the weekly logs of programs to be broadcast, as well as commercials. It was a job for a computer, he figured, and he taught himself the Basic computer language and wrote a program to handle the logs. The appeal of computing proved irresistible. "I got so involved in the computer that I didn't go to classes anymore," recalled Mr. Perens, who never got a college degree. Much of his considerable programming skills over the years since have been self-taught, a trait fueled by his early experience with formal education, when he was briefly misdiagnosed as mentally disabled (it was a motor-deficit problem that he soon outgrew). "All of this is about empowering the individual with technology," Mr. Perens said. "That has been a lifelong thrust." Mr. Perens eventually joined Pixar, where he worked for 12 years on hardware and software tools for the animators of "Toy Story," "Toy Story II" and "A Bug's Life." While working at Pixar, he became more deeply involved in the emerging open-source movement and with Linux. Having left Hewlett, he is talking to other companies about doing consulting work. "Open source doesn't mean you take a vow of poverty," Mr. Perens said. Yet Mr. Perens is also deeply committed to the values that he believes the open-source movement embody. "I'm sorry that I had to leave H.P., but I'm not going to shut up about my views," he said. "I'm not just going to sit back and be a quiet engineer. I have a two-year-old son and I don't want him to grow up in a world that is less free." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/technology/09SOFT.html?ex=1032575378&ei=1&en=be0b77a28af38be9 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 08:41:31 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BEEB65701D; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts20.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.74]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 04CBF57006 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 08:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.139]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020909155926.SOMX378.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:59:26 -0400 Message-ID: <3D7CC47B.9CFA9471@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 11:55:39 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: Balancing Linux and Microsoft References: <20020909124259.53745C436@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------157D846C7FC0E616F4B1D472" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------157D846C7FC0E616F4B1D472 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marvellous story, Gary, about , apparently, a man of character. A problem we are facing is another balancing act. I do not believe we are in the business of painting Microsoft black. Ultimately, the corporation's conduct is subject to judgment by the courts. But we should feel free to speak out in an evenhanded way about matters of fact - and do so without fear! One apparent fact is that MS 's power engenders fear in companies and in individuals. That is a terrible thing. Henry garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote: > This article from NYTimes.com > has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. > > Another fine article by Steve Lohr. > > Bruce Peren's site: www .sincerechoice.org > > The case of Bruce Perens, who until recently was a strategist for Linux software at Hewlett-Packard, illustrates the balance that companies must achieve as they promote Linux but continue doing business with Microsoft. > > garyrichmond@rcn.com > > Balancing Linux and Microsoft > > September 9, 2002 > By STEVE LOHR > > > > For nearly two years, Bruce Perens was a senior strategist > for open-source software at Hewlett-Packard - an evangelist > and rabble-rouser on behalf of a computing counterculture > that is increasingly moving into the mainstream. Part of > the job description, he was told, was to "challenge H.P. > management." > > His last day as a Hewlett-Packard employee was 10 days ago. > The parting was amicable, Mr. Perens said, but he was fired > - "officially a termination," he noted. "It came after a > long, long warning," Mr. Perens explained. "The thing that > I did that was most hazardous for H.P. is the > Microsoft-baiting I tend to do." > > A spokeswoman for Hewlett-Packard declined to comment on > Mr. Perens's departure, citing company policy against > making public statements about why individual employees > leave. > > But, according to Mr. Perens, a handful of forces combined > to make his exit from Hewlett-Packard inevitable. After it > bought Compaq this year, the combined company became the > largest single buyer of Windows for personal computers and > data-serving computers, and thus more dependent on > Microsoft. A rising threat to Microsoft is GNU Linux, an > operating system distributed free and developed using the > open-source model in which communities of programmers > donate their labor to debug, modify and otherwise improve > the code. > > After the merger with Compaq, Hewlett also became the > largest vendor of Linux-based server computers, ahead of > Dell Computer and I.B.M. Yet Hewlett's bet on Linux still > pales compared with its reliance on Microsoft. And after > the merger, it was mainly former Compaq executives who took > senior positions overseeing the Linux business. > > In the premerger Hewlett, Mr. Perens, a leader in the > open-source movement, enjoyed a lot of independence. When > speaking to potential Hewlett customers on Wall Street and > elsewhere, he would make the case for Linux, extolling it > as a reliable and secure operating system that also allowed > corporate customers to avoid being locked in to proprietary > software like Microsoft's Windows or Sun Microsystems' > Solaris. > > Mr. Perens did not have to make the pitch for Hewlett as > supplier of choice for Linux-based servers, services or > support. That chore fell to Hewlett's sales people. "It was > a pretty unique job that existed because of the H.P. > culture," Mr. Perens said. "I would still be at H.P., I > think, except for the Compaq merger." > > Yet beyond the postmerger atmosphere at Hewlett, Mr. Perens > also says that he had been taking a more outspoken stance > against Microsoft recently. "Microsoft is out to crush > Linux as a competitor," said Mr. Perens, who became truly > galvanized after the emergence in May of a Microsoft-backed > industry group, the Initiative for Software Choice. Besides > the chip maker Intel, a close Microsoft ally, most of the > other 20 or so members are smaller foreign companies or > trade organizations. > > The software-choice group sees a threat in what it has > identified as 66 legislative proposals, government > statements and studies promoting open-source software in 25 > countries, including Germany, Britain, China, Peru and > Brazil. Some of those legislative proposals would require > the use of open-source software in government, but most of > the government steps are efforts to ensure there is an > alternative to Microsoft in their critical software > markets. > > The Microsoft-backed group says its purpose is to promote > even-handed competition based on the merits of products, > instead of a government bias for one kind of software. But > as Mr. Perens sees it, the software-choice group has > another agenda. "Its principles are nice-sounding words," > he said, "but what they really say is, `Let's maintain the > status quo.' " > > Mr. Perens has stepped in himself and started an effort to > respond to the Microsoft-backed group. His initiative, > called Sincere Choice, has its own Web site (www > .sincerechoice.org), and its own set of principles. Mr. > Perens asserts that governments could get huge cost savings > and encourage the spread of open-source software by > purchasing only software that operates well with other > programs. Under his proposal, software companies would be > required to supply software with open technology standards > and open file formats that can be used by outside software > developers, without having to pay royalties. > > "The royalty-free patent issue is crucial because the > companies with huge software patent portfolios, especially > Microsoft and I.B.M., have huge tolls booths on the > Internet that can limit the spread of open-source > software," Mr. Perens observed. > > Mr. Perens, 44, has regarded technology as a force for > personal freedom since he was a teenager in the Long Island > suburbs of New York. He was a ham radio enthusiast, ran a > pirate radio station in Lido Beach, N.Y., and was briefly a > "phone phreak," who could trick the telephone network into > giving free long-distance calls. > > His introduction to computing came in college, when he > worked at the radio station at the New York Institute of > Technology in Old Westbury. Mr. Perens was a station > manager, and one of his duties was to prepare the weekly > logs of programs to be broadcast, as well as commercials. > It was a job for a computer, he figured, and he taught > himself the Basic computer language and wrote a program to > handle the logs. > > The appeal of computing proved irresistible. "I got so > involved in the computer that I didn't go to classes > anymore," recalled Mr. Perens, who never got a college > degree. > > Much of his considerable programming skills over the years > since have been self-taught, a trait fueled by his early > experience with formal education, when he was briefly > misdiagnosed as mentally disabled (it was a motor-deficit > problem that he soon outgrew). "All of this is about > empowering the individual with technology," Mr. Perens > said. "That has been a lifelong thrust." > > Mr. Perens eventually joined Pixar, where he worked for 12 > years on hardware and software tools for the animators of > "Toy Story," "Toy Story II" and "A Bug's Life." While > working at Pixar, he became more deeply involved in the > emerging open-source movement and with Linux. > > Having left Hewlett, he is talking to other companies about > doing consulting work. "Open source doesn't mean you take a > vow of poverty," Mr. Perens said. > > Yet Mr. Perens is also deeply committed to the values that > he believes the open-source movement embody. "I'm sorry > that I had to leave H.P., but I'm not going to shut up > about my views," he said. "I'm not just going to sit back > and be a quiet engineer. I have a two-year-old son and I > don't want him to grow up in a world that is less free." > > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/technology/09SOFT.html?ex=1032575378&ei=1&en=be0b77a28af38be9 > > HOW TO ADVERTISE > --------------------------------- > For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters > or other creative advertising opportunities with The > New York Times on the Web, please contact > onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media > kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo > > For general information about NYTimes.com, write to > help@nytimes.com. > > Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company --------------157D846C7FC0E616F4B1D472 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marvellous story, Gary, about , apparently, a man of character.

A problem we are facing is another balancing act.

I do not believe we are in the business of painting Microsoft black. Ultimately, the corporation's conduct is subject to judgment by the courts. But we should feel free to speak out in an evenhanded way about matters of fact - and do so without fear! One apparent fact is that MS 's power engenders fear in companies and in individuals. That is a terrible thing.

Henry

garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote:

This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com.

Another fine article by Steve Lohr.

Bruce Peren's site: www .sincerechoice.org

The case of Bruce Perens, who until recently was a strategist for Linux software at Hewlett-Packard, illustrates the balance that companies must achieve as they promote Linux but continue doing business with Microsoft.

garyrichmond@rcn.com

Balancing Linux and Microsoft

September 9, 2002
By STEVE LOHR
 
 

For nearly two years, Bruce Perens was a senior strategist
for open-source software at Hewlett-Packard - an evangelist
and rabble-rouser on behalf of a computing counterculture
that is increasingly moving into the mainstream. Part of
the job description, he was told, was to "challenge H.P.
management."

His last day as a Hewlett-Packard employee was 10 days ago.
The parting was amicable, Mr. Perens said, but he was fired
- "officially a termination," he noted. "It came after a
long, long warning," Mr. Perens explained. "The thing that
I did that was most hazardous for H.P. is the
Microsoft-baiting I tend to do."

A spokeswoman for Hewlett-Packard declined to comment on
Mr. Perens's departure, citing company policy against
making public statements about why individual employees
leave.

But, according to Mr. Perens, a handful of forces combined
to make his exit from Hewlett-Packard inevitable. After it
bought Compaq this year, the combined company became the
largest single buyer of Windows for personal computers and
data-serving computers, and thus more dependent on
Microsoft. A rising threat to Microsoft is GNU Linux, an
operating system distributed free and developed using the
open-source model in which communities of programmers
donate their labor to debug, modify and otherwise improve
the code.

After the merger with Compaq, Hewlett also became the
largest vendor of Linux-based server computers, ahead of
Dell Computer and I.B.M. Yet Hewlett's bet on Linux still
pales compared with its reliance on Microsoft. And after
the merger, it was mainly former Compaq executives who took
senior positions overseeing the Linux business.

In the premerger Hewlett, Mr. Perens, a leader in the
open-source movement, enjoyed a lot of independence. When
speaking to potential Hewlett customers on Wall Street and
elsewhere, he would make the case for Linux, extolling it
as a reliable and secure operating system that also allowed
corporate customers to avoid being locked in to proprietary
software like Microsoft's Windows or Sun Microsystems'
Solaris.

Mr. Perens did not have to make the pitch for Hewlett as
supplier of choice for Linux-based servers, services or
support. That chore fell to Hewlett's sales people. "It was
a pretty unique job that existed because of the H.P.
culture," Mr. Perens said. "I would still be at H.P., I
think, except for the Compaq merger."

Yet beyond the postmerger atmosphere at Hewlett, Mr. Perens
also says that he had been taking a more outspoken stance
against Microsoft recently. "Microsoft is out to crush
Linux as a competitor," said Mr. Perens, who became truly
galvanized after the emergence in May of a Microsoft-backed
industry group, the Initiative for Software Choice. Besides
the chip maker Intel, a close Microsoft ally, most of the
other 20 or so members are smaller foreign companies or
trade organizations.

The software-choice group sees a threat in what it has
identified as 66 legislative proposals, government
statements and studies promoting open-source software in 25
countries, including Germany, Britain, China, Peru and
Brazil. Some of those legislative proposals would require
the use of open-source software in government, but most of
the government steps are efforts to ensure there is an
alternative to Microsoft in their critical software
markets.

The Microsoft-backed group says its purpose is to promote
even-handed competition based on the merits of products,
instead of a government bias for one kind of software. But
as Mr. Perens sees it, the software-choice group has
another agenda. "Its principles are nice-sounding words,"
he said, "but what they really say is, `Let's maintain the
status quo.' "

Mr. Perens has stepped in himself and started an effort to
respond to the Microsoft-backed group. His initiative,
called Sincere Choice, has its own Web site (www
.sincerechoice.org), and its own set of principles. Mr.
Perens asserts that governments could get huge cost savings
and encourage the spread of open-source software by
purchasing only software that operates well with other
programs. Under his proposal, software companies would be
required to supply software with open technology standards
and open file formats that can be used by outside software
developers, without having to pay royalties.

"The royalty-free patent issue is crucial because the
companies with huge software patent portfolios, especially
Microsoft and I.B.M., have huge tolls booths on the
Internet that can limit the spread of open-source
software," Mr. Perens observed.

Mr. Perens, 44, has regarded technology as a force for
personal freedom since he was a teenager in the Long Island
suburbs of New York. He was a ham radio enthusiast, ran a
pirate radio station in Lido Beach, N.Y., and was briefly a
"phone phreak," who could trick the telephone network into
giving free long-distance calls.

His introduction to computing came in college, when he
worked at the radio station at the New York Institute of
Technology in Old Westbury. Mr. Perens was a station
manager, and one of his duties was to prepare the weekly
logs of programs to be broadcast, as well as commercials.
It was a job for a computer, he figured, and he taught
himself the Basic computer language and wrote a program to
handle the logs.

The appeal of computing proved irresistible. "I got so
involved in the computer that I didn't go to classes
anymore," recalled Mr. Perens, who never got a college
degree.

Much of his considerable programming skills over the years
since have been self-taught, a trait fueled by his early
experience with formal education, when he was briefly
misdiagnosed as mentally disabled (it was a motor-deficit
problem that he soon outgrew). "All of this is about
empowering the individual with technology," Mr. Perens
said. "That has been a lifelong thrust."

Mr. Perens eventually joined Pixar, where he worked for 12
years on hardware and software tools for the animators of
"Toy Story," "Toy Story II" and "A Bug's Life." While
working at Pixar, he became more deeply involved in the
emerging open-source movement and with Linux.

Having left Hewlett, he is talking to other companies about
doing consulting work. "Open source doesn't mean you take a
vow of poverty," Mr. Perens said.

Yet Mr. Perens is also deeply committed to the values that
he believes the open-source movement embody. "I'm sorry
that I had to leave H.P., but I'm not going to shut up
about my views," he said. "I'm not just going to sit back
and be a quiet engineer. I have a two-year-old son and I
don't want him to grow up in a world that is less free."

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/09/technology/09SOFT.html?ex=1032575378&ei=1&en=be0b77a28af38be9

HOW TO ADVERTISE
---------------------------------
For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters
or other creative advertising opportunities with The
New York Times on the Web, please contact
onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media
kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo

For general information about NYTimes.com, write to
help@nytimes.com.

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

--------------157D846C7FC0E616F4B1D472-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 09:14:47 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 47DEF5701D; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail1.atl.registeredsite.com (mail1.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.75]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0E3B557006 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kmcluster.com (mail.kmcluster.com [64.226.164.169]) by mail1.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g89GWh2o027755 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:32:43 -0400 Received: from collaboratory [64.226.164.169] by mail.kmcluster.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AD2A19AB013A; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 12:32:42 -0400 From: "John Maloney" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:32:41 -0700 Organization: KM Cluster Message-ID: <001d01c2581e$8527dac0$aa01010a@collaboratory> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <20020909003256.3FC33C403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Greetings -- I applaud the USA standing-up for her sovereignty!=20 These phony envirocrats are as sickening as the demented free-trade purists.=20 The NY Times bashing republican administrations is about as original as cold toast. Give us a break and something with intellectual or editorial merit.=20 When the world stuck its finger in the eye of America on 9/11, at the World "Trade" Center and other places, it became clear that less internationalism and globalism is the correct path for the country. Active participation in meta-government like the UN, leads to more terror, war, poverty and destruction across-the-board. =20 Let arrogant Finnish environmental blowhards slam the USA all they want, but do not, never, allow the USA to be subsumed by the globalists, particularly with supra-governmental boondoggles like Johannesburg. =20 Ironically, it is the counterfeit, unelected diplomats and their free-trade minions that have created, and indeed, sustain global poverty and environmental destruction.=20 Sometimes, the smallest things help create the greatest, most significant lift and change. It is time that the greater USA follow the lead of the mighty LaVerkin, Utah (pop. 3,400). This is truly an unfinished revolution. To wit, "Most city councils focus on potholes rather than peacekeeping, but this Fourth of July, civic leaders in LaVerkin, fired another shot heard round the world. By a vote of 3 to 2, the City Council of this tiny Western town made history by declaring independence - from the United Nations.=20 Neighboring Virgin, Utah (pop. 400) passed a similar measure July 19. Under the new ordinance, city property will not bear UN symbols, no resident will participate in the "involuntary servitude" of UN operations, and municipal funds will not be spent to support UN activities. Those who disagree must register with the city and post yard signs that read, "United Nations work conducted here." Opponents worked overtime to caricature the resolution's backers as conspiracy-peddling, gun-toting zealots still disappointed that Y2K fizzled. Not so. They're average citizens of a state where 83% of land belongs to the federal government, and residents of a town near Zion National Park, a site already requisitioned by the UN's World Heritage Committee. LaVerkin understands encroachment. "We live in the West and we see parks now where part of the fees that they earn go to the UN because it is a biosphere," Councilman Al Snow said. "I can see our country's sovereignty slowly slipping away." The pundit chorus clucks that the move is symbolic ploy with a short shelf-life. More likely, LaVerkin is cresting the first wave of a global sea change. Mayor Dan Howard hopes "LaVerkin is the crucible to get the rest of the cities and the national government to listen." They're already listening, Mr. Mayor. From Ireland and Denmark where voters just sent the EU back to Brussels to other small towns in Washington and New Mexico considering "UN free-zones" of their own, sovereignty is back in the saddle. Had our forefathers returned to fete our nation's founding, they would have been gratified by the Capitol fireworks and Philadelphia performances. But the brave souls who transformed themselves from King George's subjects to freedom's champions might have enjoyed LaVerkin more. For in that Utah corner, the patriots who staked their sacred honor on the first declaration would have recognized a familiar insouciance and felt right at home in the country they left us." -jtm =20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of garyrichmond@rcn.com Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 5:33 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet=20 This article from NYTimes.com=20 has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. The lead editorial of today's New York Times shows that at least one wing of the American press is capable of soundly criticizing Bush--even on the eve of the 9/11 tragedy. Jack Park wrote: From: elohimjl From: Ari Lampinen To: Inesnet Subject: 9/11/02: USA evolved as #1 rogue nation USA Today had a cover story on August 14 2002 on the sentiments of Bush administration policy across the world. It included a photo of a demonstration in London with a large US map with text "#1 ROGUE NATION". Orwellian language was also used by International Herald Tribune in its editorial on September 7-8 2002 on the results of the Johannesburg World Summit on Sustainable Development: they quoted somebody as calling USA and OPEC alliance as "AXIS OF OIL". Behind this, as the editorial puts it was that "the conference was diminished by the unenthusiastic participation of the United States" and the OPEC/USA cartel succeeded in their goal "to oppose clear and binding targets to increase the use of solar and wind power". The renewable energy issue was the last one to be agreed in the WSSD Plan of Implementation. It was the most important thing for the Bush administration not to have any targets and timetables for the energy sector transformation towards sustainable development. Because the opposite was a top priority for the EU this issue was settled only after US succeeded in getting G77, i.e. the group of virtually all developing countries to support its stand in exchange of having targets included for health sector, another major theme of the summit where US had blocked concrete action until the tradeoff. As one EU negotiator put it, the USA is the main stumbling block of international negotiations. The continuation of the selfish unilateralism of the Bush administration and its faithful mate Australia was recognized by the audience of the final plenary of the WSSD in September 4, in the reactions to the speeches of parties given after the adoption of the Plan of Implementation. All except the two countries received applauds. Australia was the only country whose final speech received total silence. And the USA was the only one that was greeted with spontaneous boos from the audience of ministers, diplomats and stakeholders from almost 200 countries. This was the second time I witnessed this code of diplomatic conduct: in Bonn climate conference last year, when the political concensus of the Kyoto protocol details was reached with USA the only country out of 179 parties to disagree, the US speech was the only one receiving booing and all the other were applauded to. In its intervention after the adoption of the WSSD Plan of Implementation USA made several reservations including: - USA does not recognize the Rio principle #7, i.e. common and differentiated responsibilities. It means that USA regards unfair that they would be expected to do more than developing countries to fight environmental and development problems. - USA does not recognize the United Nations target of 0.72232140f GDP to official development aid, or any other ODA target. - USA interprets that the text regarding corporate accountability improvements does not require any new actions. - USA announces that it will not accept any of the biodiversity text to evolve into legally binding commitments. And they also gave the impression that this applies to rest of the text as well. And USA announced that they take sustainable development very seriously. The official plenary speech of Colin Powell earlier the same day had the same attitude and it was interrupted several times by loud booing. The Wall Street Journal described in its editorial September 6-8 these incidents the following way: "How little interest some of the delegates had in a rational discussion of their first principles was on display Wednesday, when US Secretary of State Colin Powell was jeered and interrupted as he attempted to address the US approach to environmental issues and economic growth." For Wall Street Journal the purpose of the WSSD was to "develop international environmental bureaucracy" in the name of "phantom threats" with the result of "keeping the poor from improving their lot". It is necessary to note that the business and industry sector did not share the US views in the WSSD. On the contrary, they strongly promoted corporate accountability and targeted actions in most areas. Thus, it is exceptionally small minority of people that the Bush administration has so strongly devoted to serve, with exceptionally little consideration of the rest. Regards, Ari Lampinen Finnish society for environmental sciences --=20 elohimjl=20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of garyrichmond@rcn.com Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 5:33 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet=20 This article from NYTimes.com=20 has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. The lead editorial of today's New York Times shows that at least one wing of the American press is capable of soundly criticizing Bush--even on the eve of the 9/11 tragedy. Jack Park wrote: From: elohimjl From: Ari Lampinen To: Inesnet Subject: 9/11/02: USA evolved as #1 rogue nation USA Today had a cover story on August 14 2002 on the sentiments of Bush administration policy across the world. It included a photo of a demonstration in London with a large US map with text "#1 ROGUE NATION". Orwellian language was also used by International Herald Tribune in its editorial on September 7-8 2002 on the results of the Johannesburg World Summit on Sustainable Development: they quoted somebody as calling USA and OPEC alliance as "AXIS OF OIL". Behind this, as the editorial puts it was that "the conference was diminished by the unenthusiastic participation of the United States" and the OPEC/USA cartel succeeded in their goal "to oppose clear and binding targets to increase the use of solar and wind power". The renewable energy issue was the last one to be agreed in the WSSD Plan of Implementation. It was the most important thing for the Bush administration not to have any targets and timetables for the energy sector transformation towards sustainable development. Because the opposite was a top priority for the EU this issue was settled only after US succeeded in getting G77, i.e. the group of virtually all developing countries to support its stand in exchange of having targets included for health sector, another major theme of the summit where US had blocked concrete action until the tradeoff. As one EU negotiator put it, the USA is the main stumbling block of international negotiations. The continuation of the selfish unilateralism of the Bush administration and its faithful mate Australia was recognized by the audience of the final plenary of the WSSD in September 4, in the reactions to the speeches of parties given after the adoption of the Plan of Implementation. All except the two countries received applauds. Australia was the only country whose final speech received total silence. And the USA was the only one that was greeted with spontaneous boos from the audience of ministers, diplomats and stakeholders from almost 200 countries. This was the second time I witnessed this code of diplomatic conduct: in Bonn climate conference last year, when the political concensus of the Kyoto protocol details was reached with USA the only country out of 179 parties to disagree, the US speech was the only one receiving booing and all the other were applauded to. In its intervention after the adoption of the WSSD Plan of Implementation USA made several reservations including: - USA does not recognize the Rio principle #7, i.e. common and differentiated responsibilities. It means that USA regards unfair that they would be expected to do more than developing countries to fight environmental and development problems. - USA does not recognize the United Nations target of 0.72232140f GDP to official development aid, or any other ODA target. - USA interprets that the text regarding corporate accountability improvements does not require any new actions. - USA announces that it will not accept any of the biodiversity text to evolve into legally binding commitments. And they also gave the impression that this applies to rest of the text as well. And USA announced that they take sustainable development very seriously. The official plenary speech of Colin Powell earlier the same day had the same attitude and it was interrupted several times by loud booing. The Wall Street Journal described in its editorial September 6-8 these incidents the following way: "How little interest some of the delegates had in a rational discussion of their first principles was on display Wednesday, when US Secretary of State Colin Powell was jeered and interrupted as he attempted to address the US approach to environmental issues and economic growth." For Wall Street Journal the purpose of the WSSD was to "develop international environmental bureaucracy" in the name of "phantom threats" with the result of "keeping the poor from improving their lot". It is necessary to note that the business and industry sector did not share the US views in the WSSD. On the contrary, they strongly promoted corporate accountability and targeted actions in most areas. Thus, it is exceptionally small minority of people that the Bush administration has so strongly devoted to serve, with exceptionally little consideration of the rest. Regards, Ari Lampinen Finnish society for environmental sciences --=20 elohimjl=20 garyrichmond@rcn.com An Uncertain Trumpet September 8, 2002 =20 President Bush was hardly alone in hoping that America would emerge from the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11 a stronger and more cohesive nation. Yet nobody framed the challenge better than he did in his State of the Union address last January. "In the sacrifice of soldiers, the fierce brotherhood of firefighters, and the bravery and generosity of ordinary citizens," he said, "we have glimpsed what a new culture of responsibility could look like. We want to be a nation that serves goals larger than self. We've been offered a unique opportunity, and we must not let this moment pass." In later speeches he pounded on the same theme, urging Americans to forswear the "culture of selfishness" and embrace a "new ethic of responsibility."=20 What has Mr. Bush made of that moment of opportunity, which may have passed us by? Sad to say, not much. Most of us had expected the country to be in a different place by now, and the fact that it is not can be attributed largely (though by no means exclusively) to Mr. Bush's failure to leverage the political and moral capital Sept. 11 provided.=20 =95=A0=20 Mr. Bush had the words right. His problem was his failure to give them meaning, either because he did not know what had to be done or because what had to be done exceeded his political will. Sept. 11 summoned Americans to think differently about basic problems and to reach out to one another as never before. It was a moment to begin thinking about less wasteful energy policies, to envision new economic and social strategies, to examine programs of national service for the country's young people - in short, to entertain genuine sacrifices linked to an elevated vision of America's possibilities. Despite lots of oratory, however, no real sacrifice has been demanded, no vision offered.=20 In his defense, Mr. Bush has been a busy and burdened man, and as the nation's leader, he has pushed us forward on several fronts. He has proposed a new architecture of homeland defense that could do much to rationalize our quarrelsome and porous security agencies. Abroad, he has prosecuted the complicated war on terrorism with patience and resolve. He certainly did not anticipate the explosion of expos=E9s about appalling corporate behavior that has helped make 2002 a peculiarly "low dishonest" moment in American history (to borrow W. H. Auden's observation about the 1930's), instead of the year of fresh beginnings we wanted.=20 Nevertheless, the most glaring missed opportunities are directly linked to the president. For instance, it is hard to imagine a sharper reminder of America's dependence on the volatile regimes of the Middle East for their oil than the events of Sept. 11. Yet instead of charting a new course, one requiring major investments in energy efficiency and the development of alternative energy sources - the two surest roads to greater energy independence - Mr. Bush clung stubbornly to the notion that the United States could drill its way to self-sufficiency. Absent presidential leadership, a timid and unimaginative Congress did little better, rejecting modest efforts to tighten fuel economy standards while showering producers of traditional fossil fuels with a staggering array of subsidies and tax breaks.=20 Likewise, Sept. 11 seemed to have little impact on Mr. Bush's economic thinking. Everyone makes sacrifices in times of war, including leaders. Franklin Roosevelt, for instance, set aside cherished domestic initiatives after Pearl Harbor because he knew the country could not afford them. In a similar fashion, Mr. Bush might have postponed or even rolled back his tax cut and redeployed the money in more meritorious ways, perhaps to underwrite a serious program of foreign assistance to encourage the growth of democratic institutions in countries where poverty and corruption breed terrorists - and cynicism about an American government that supports tyrannical leaders. It would have asked much of Mr. Bush to ask him to give up a program so central to his thinking and political strategy. Yet in clinging to the tax cuts as if they were holy writ, as the former presidential adviser David Gergen recently observed on the Op-Ed page, the president has sent a clear signal to the public that we can have both war and business as usual.=20 Finally, Mr. Bush has come up short in the one area where he seemed most determined to succeed: creating from the wreckage of the World Trade Center a new sense of purpose in our national life. Robert Putnam, an authority on American community life and the author of "Bowling Alone," argues that the attacks of Sept. 11 connected Americans in ways they have not been connected since World War II, creating a sense of solidarity that manifested itself in a heightened political consciousness, a surprising burst in trust for the federal government, an increase in racial and religious tolerance, and a rise in public-spiritedness in general. Mr. Bush himself noted the change immediately and marveled at what he called "the gathering momentum of millions of acts of decency and kindness."=20 Unfortunately, though, the vehicle he created to capture this spirit and enlarge upon it - the U.S.A. Freedom Corps - seems to have drifted into irrelevance. It was little more than a gussied-up collection of existing programs to begin with, programs like John Kennedy's Peace Corps and Bill Clinton's AmeriCorps, and so far it has reached only a tiny fraction of America's young people. The administration hopes to double the size of the Peace Corps, to 14,000 from 7,000, and expand AmeriCorps to 75,000 from 50,000. Set against the manifest idealism inspired by Sept. 11, this seems a trivial response. Mr. Bush, as a longtime enemy of big government, seems unable to embrace wholeheartedly a challenge that requires making government programs grow.=20 =95=A0=20 If surveys by Mr. Putnam and others are any guide, the mood of sacrifice is fading, the window of opportunity for bottling the patriotism generated by Sept. 11 slowly closing. Mr. Bush continues to extol the virtues of voluntary service, and this is admirable. But it is hardly enough to resist the erosion in the level of public engagement as people return to everyday routines.=20 In retrospect, Mr. Bush would have been better served - and the civic enthusiasm of the moment would have had a far greater chance of surviving - if he had called for something truly bold, like a year of mandatory national service for everyone of college age. Of course, that might have kicked up a political storm. But of what use is political capital unless you spend it? Mr. Bush had plenty of capital to spend after Sept. 11. Sadly, on issue after issue, most of that capital is still in the bank, depreciating by the day. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/08/opinion/08SUN1.html?ex=3D1032531576&ei=3D= 1 &en=3Db6a7bcd7e6051913 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters=20 or other creative advertising opportunities with The=20 New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media=20 kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to=20 help@nytimes.com. =20 Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 09:41:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BC26E5701F; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mailone.kub.nl (mailone.kub.nl [137.56.0.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C57AD57006 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 09:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prefix1 (prefix1.kub.nl [137.56.0.78]) by mailone.kub.nl (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g89Gxcsc024120 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:59:38 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:59:37 +0200 (MET DST) From: Aldo de Moor X-X-Sender: ademoor@prefix1 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet In-Reply-To: <001d01c2581e$8527dac0$aa01010a@collaboratory> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.8 required=5.0 X-Spam-Level: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Is this e-mail a joke?! If the US would no longer use any of the world's resources, have no negative impact on global climate, would no longer meddle around in client and other states politics, would not use foreign wars to cover up domestic problems, THEN you can withdraw from the world and do your own thing! Since this is clearly not the case, the US have a practical and moral obligation to convince the other 95% of humanity of the wisdom of its policies through - admittedly imperfect - discussion and negotiation structures like the UN, not through cynical powerplay! Aldo On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, John Maloney wrote: > Greetings -- > > I applaud the USA standing-up for her sovereignty! > > These phony envirocrats are as sickening as the demented free-trade > purists. > > The NY Times bashing republican administrations is about as original as > cold toast. Give us a break and something with intellectual or editorial > merit. > > When the world stuck its finger in the eye of America on 9/11, at the > World "Trade" Center and other places, it became clear that less > internationalism and globalism is the correct path for the country. > > Active participation in meta-government like the UN, leads to more > terror, war, poverty and destruction across-the-board. > > Let arrogant Finnish environmental blowhards slam the USA all they want, > but do not, never, allow the USA to be subsumed by the globalists, > particularly with supra-governmental boondoggles like Johannesburg. > > Ironically, it is the counterfeit, unelected diplomats and their > free-trade minions that have created, and indeed, sustain global poverty > and environmental destruction. > > Sometimes, the smallest things help create the greatest, most > significant lift and change. It is time that the greater USA follow the > lead of the mighty LaVerkin, Utah (pop. 3,400). This is truly an > unfinished revolution. To wit, > > "Most city councils focus on potholes rather than peacekeeping, but this > Fourth of July, civic leaders in LaVerkin, fired another shot heard > round the world. By a vote of 3 to 2, the City Council of this tiny > Western town made history by declaring independence - from the United > Nations. > > Neighboring Virgin, Utah (pop. 400) passed a similar measure July 19. > > Under the new ordinance, city property will not bear UN symbols, no > resident will participate in the "involuntary servitude" of UN > operations, and municipal funds will not be spent to support UN > activities. Those who disagree must register with the city and post yard > signs that read, "United Nations work conducted here." > > Opponents worked overtime to caricature the resolution's backers as > conspiracy-peddling, gun-toting zealots still disappointed that Y2K > fizzled. > > Not so. They're average citizens of a state where 83% of land belongs to > the federal government, and residents of a town near Zion National Park, > a site already requisitioned by the UN's World Heritage Committee. > LaVerkin understands encroachment. "We live in the West and we see parks > now where part of the fees that they earn go to the UN because it is a > biosphere," Councilman Al Snow said. "I can see our country's > sovereignty slowly slipping away." > > The pundit chorus clucks that the move is symbolic ploy with a short > shelf-life. More likely, LaVerkin is cresting the first wave of a global > sea change. > > Mayor Dan Howard hopes "LaVerkin is the crucible to get the rest of the > cities and the national government to listen." > > They're already listening, Mr. Mayor. From Ireland and Denmark where > voters just sent the EU back to Brussels to other small towns in > Washington and New Mexico considering "UN free-zones" of their own, > sovereignty is back in the saddle. > > Had our forefathers returned to fete our nation's founding, they would > have been gratified by the Capitol fireworks and Philadelphia > performances. > > But the brave souls who transformed themselves from King George's > subjects to freedom's champions might have enjoyed LaVerkin more. For in > that Utah corner, the patriots who staked their sacred honor on the > first declaration would have recognized a familiar insouciance and felt > right at home in the country they left us." > > -jtm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of > garyrichmond@rcn.com > Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 5:33 PM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet > > > This article from NYTimes.com > has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. > > > The lead editorial of today's New York Times shows that at least one > wing of the American press is capable of soundly criticizing Bush--even > on the eve of the 9/11 tragedy. > > Jack Park wrote: > > From: elohimjl > > From: Ari Lampinen > To: Inesnet > Subject: 9/11/02: USA evolved as #1 rogue nation > > USA Today had a cover story on August 14 2002 on the sentiments of Bush > administration policy across the world. It included a photo of a > demonstration in London with a large US map with text "#1 ROGUE NATION". > > Orwellian language was also used by International Herald Tribune in its > editorial on September 7-8 2002 on the results of the Johannesburg World > Summit on Sustainable Development: they quoted somebody as calling USA > and OPEC alliance as "AXIS OF OIL". Behind this, as the editorial puts > it was that "the conference was diminished by the unenthusiastic > participation of the United States" and the OPEC/USA cartel succeeded in > their goal "to oppose clear and binding targets to increase the use of > solar and wind power". > > The renewable energy issue was the last one to be agreed in the WSSD > Plan of Implementation. It was the most important thing for the Bush > administration not to have any targets and timetables for the energy > sector transformation towards sustainable development. Because the > opposite was a top priority for the EU this issue was settled only after > US succeeded in getting G77, i.e. the group of virtually all developing > countries to support its stand in exchange of having targets included > for health sector, another major theme of the summit where US had > blocked concrete action until the tradeoff. > > As one EU negotiator put it, the USA is the main stumbling block of > international negotiations. > > The continuation of the selfish unilateralism of the Bush administration > and its faithful mate Australia was recognized by the audience of the > final plenary of the WSSD in September 4, in the reactions to the > speeches of parties given after the adoption of the Plan of > Implementation. All except the two countries received applauds. > Australia was the only country whose final speech received total > silence. And the USA was the only one that was greeted with spontaneous > boos from the audience of ministers, diplomats and stakeholders from > almost 200 countries. This was the second time I witnessed this code of > diplomatic conduct: in Bonn climate conference last year, when the > political concensus of the Kyoto protocol details was reached with USA > the only country out of 179 parties to disagree, the US speech was the > only one receiving booing and all the other were applauded to. > > In its intervention after the adoption of the WSSD Plan of > Implementation USA made several reservations including: > - USA does not recognize the Rio principle #7, i.e. common and > differentiated responsibilities. It means that USA regards unfair that > they would be expected to do more than developing countries to fight > environmental and development problems. > - USA does not recognize the United Nations target of 0.72232140f GDP to > official development aid, or any other ODA target. > - USA interprets that the text regarding corporate accountability > improvements does not require any new actions. > - USA announces that it will not accept any of the biodiversity text to > evolve into legally binding commitments. And they also gave the > impression that this applies to rest of the text as well. > And USA announced that they take sustainable development very seriously. > > The official plenary speech of Colin Powell earlier the same day had the > same attitude and it was interrupted several times by loud booing. The > Wall Street Journal described in its editorial September 6-8 these > incidents the following way: "How little interest some of the delegates > had in a rational discussion of their first principles was on display > Wednesday, when US Secretary of State Colin Powell was jeered and > interrupted as he attempted to address the US approach to environmental > issues and economic growth." For Wall Street Journal the purpose of the > WSSD was to "develop international environmental bureaucracy" in the > name of "phantom threats" with the result of "keeping the poor from > improving their lot". > > It is necessary to note that the business and industry sector did not > share the US views in the WSSD. On the contrary, they strongly promoted > corporate accountability and targeted actions in most areas. > > Thus, it is exceptionally small minority of people that the Bush > administration has so strongly devoted to serve, with exceptionally > little consideration of the rest. > > > Regards, > Ari Lampinen > Finnish society for environmental sciences > > -- ========================================================================== ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor Dr. Aldo de Moor Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands ========================================================================== From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 10:15:23 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1180A5700C; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail8.atl.registeredsite.com (mail8.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.82]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 59B9E57006 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kmcluster.com (mail.kmcluster.com [64.226.164.169]) by mail8.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.2/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g89HXJ9V006787 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:33:20 -0400 Received: from collaboratory [64.226.164.169] by mail.kmcluster.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AB5EEDB40114; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 13:33:18 -0400 From: "John Maloney" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 10:33:16 -0700 Organization: KM Cluster Message-ID: <003501c25826$fbb156a0$aa01010a@collaboratory> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Aldo, It is precisely the fawning over these foolish and counterproductive "discussion and negotiation structures" that causes and sustains severe problems.=20 Look how Iraq treats the UN -- like the big, cruel JOKE it is, for example. How about moral relativism of the attack of Sept 11 -- actively debated at the UN in one of your dopey "discussion and negotiation structures"? How can you rationalized well-manicured executives at the World Bank, for example, offering up loans to corrupt leaders and their countries knowing FULL WELL they will NEVER be able to repay the principal? This egregious practice has sustained decades of poverty, destruction and death.=20 Please don't be so na=EFve. This is not about withdraw, it simple, man-on-the-street, common sense. The only moral obligation the USA has is to Americans. If Americans, in turn, wish to participate as private citizens in the world community, they are welcome and encouraged.=20 Again the UN, is a bloated, ineffective toothless tiger. It needs to be retired along with all its phony pretense and elites. One great suggestion is to move the whole mess off 1st Ave (and GVA) to Burkina Faso. Just see how much faster decisions would be made operating from Western Africa. It would be a miracle! (Besides, it would solve the parking problem.) -jtm=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Aldo de Moor Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:00 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet=20 Is this e-mail a joke?! If the US would no longer use any of the world's resources, have no negative impact on global climate, would no longer meddle around in client and other states politics, would not use foreign wars to cover up domestic problems, THEN you can withdraw from the world and do your own thing! Since this is clearly not the case, the US have a practical and moral obligation to convince the other 95% of humanity of the wisdom of its policies through - admittedly imperfect - discussion and negotiation structures like the UN, not through cynical powerplay! Aldo On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, John Maloney wrote: > Greetings -- > > I applaud the USA standing-up for her sovereignty! > > These phony envirocrats are as sickening as the demented free-trade > purists. > > The NY Times bashing republican administrations is about as original > as cold toast. Give us a break and something with intellectual or=20 > editorial merit. > > When the world stuck its finger in the eye of America on 9/11, at the > World "Trade" Center and other places, it became clear that less=20 > internationalism and globalism is the correct path for the country. > > Active participation in meta-government like the UN, leads to more > terror, war, poverty and destruction across-the-board. > > Let arrogant Finnish environmental blowhards slam the USA all they > want, but do not, never, allow the USA to be subsumed by the=20 > globalists, particularly with supra-governmental boondoggles like=20 > Johannesburg. > > Ironically, it is the counterfeit, unelected diplomats and their > free-trade minions that have created, and indeed, sustain global=20 > poverty and environmental destruction. > > Sometimes, the smallest things help create the greatest, most > significant lift and change. It is time that the greater USA follow=20 > the lead of the mighty LaVerkin, Utah (pop. 3,400). This is truly an=20 > unfinished revolution. To wit, > > "Most city councils focus on potholes rather than peacekeeping, but > this Fourth of July, civic leaders in LaVerkin, fired another shot=20 > heard round the world. By a vote of 3 to 2, the City Council of this=20 > tiny Western town made history by declaring independence - from the=20 > United Nations. > > Neighboring Virgin, Utah (pop. 400) passed a similar measure July 19. > > Under the new ordinance, city property will not bear UN symbols, no > resident will participate in the "involuntary servitude" of UN=20 > operations, and municipal funds will not be spent to support UN=20 > activities. Those who disagree must register with the city and post=20 > yard signs that read, "United Nations work conducted here." > > Opponents worked overtime to caricature the resolution's backers as > conspiracy-peddling, gun-toting zealots still disappointed that Y2K=20 > fizzled. > > Not so. They're average citizens of a state where 83% of land belongs > to the federal government, and residents of a town near Zion National=20 > Park, a site already requisitioned by the UN's World Heritage=20 > Committee. LaVerkin understands encroachment. "We live in the West and > we see parks now where part of the fees that they earn go to the UN=20 > because it is a biosphere," Councilman Al Snow said. "I can see our=20 > country's sovereignty slowly slipping away." > > The pundit chorus clucks that the move is symbolic ploy with a short > shelf-life. More likely, LaVerkin is cresting the first wave of a=20 > global sea change. > > Mayor Dan Howard hopes "LaVerkin is the crucible to get the rest of > the cities and the national government to listen." > > They're already listening, Mr. Mayor. From Ireland and Denmark where > voters just sent the EU back to Brussels to other small towns in=20 > Washington and New Mexico considering "UN free-zones" of their own,=20 > sovereignty is back in the saddle. > > Had our forefathers returned to fete our nation's founding, they would > have been gratified by the Capitol fireworks and Philadelphia=20 > performances. > > But the brave souls who transformed themselves from King George's > subjects to freedom's champions might have enjoyed LaVerkin more. For=20 > in that Utah corner, the patriots who staked their sacred honor on the > first declaration would have recognized a familiar insouciance and=20 > felt right at home in the country they left us." > > -jtm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of=20 > garyrichmond@rcn.com > Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 5:33 PM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet > > > This article from NYTimes.com > has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. > > > The lead editorial of today's New York Times shows that at least one > wing of the American press is capable of soundly criticizing=20 > Bush--even on the eve of the 9/11 tragedy. > > Jack Park wrote: > > From: elohimjl > > From: Ari Lampinen > To: Inesnet > Subject: 9/11/02: USA evolved as #1 rogue nation > > USA Today had a cover story on August 14 2002 on the sentiments of > Bush administration policy across the world. It included a photo of a=20 > demonstration in London with a large US map with text "#1 ROGUE=20 > NATION". > > Orwellian language was also used by International Herald Tribune in > its editorial on September 7-8 2002 on the results of the Johannesburg > World Summit on Sustainable Development: they quoted somebody as=20 > calling USA and OPEC alliance as "AXIS OF OIL". Behind this, as the=20 > editorial puts it was that "the conference was diminished by the=20 > unenthusiastic participation of the United States" and the OPEC/USA=20 > cartel succeeded in their goal "to oppose clear and binding targets to > increase the use of solar and wind power". > > The renewable energy issue was the last one to be agreed in the WSSD > Plan of Implementation. It was the most important thing for the Bush=20 > administration not to have any targets and timetables for the energy=20 > sector transformation towards sustainable development. Because the=20 > opposite was a top priority for the EU this issue was settled only=20 > after US succeeded in getting G77, i.e. the group of virtually all=20 > developing countries to support its stand in exchange of having=20 > targets included for health sector, another major theme of the summit=20 > where US had blocked concrete action until the tradeoff. > > As one EU negotiator put it, the USA is the main stumbling block of > international negotiations. > > The continuation of the selfish unilateralism of the Bush > administration and its faithful mate Australia was recognized by the=20 > audience of the final plenary of the WSSD in September 4, in the=20 > reactions to the speeches of parties given after the adoption of the=20 > Plan of Implementation. All except the two countries received=20 > applauds. Australia was the only country whose final speech received=20 > total silence. And the USA was the only one that was greeted with=20 > spontaneous boos from the audience of ministers, diplomats and=20 > stakeholders from almost 200 countries. This was the second time I=20 > witnessed this code of diplomatic conduct: in Bonn climate conference=20 > last year, when the political concensus of the Kyoto protocol details=20 > was reached with USA the only country out of 179 parties to disagree,=20 > the US speech was the only one receiving booing and all the other were > applauded to. > > In its intervention after the adoption of the WSSD Plan of > Implementation USA made several reservations including: > - USA does not recognize the Rio principle #7, i.e. common and > differentiated responsibilities. It means that USA regards unfair that > they would be expected to do more than developing countries to fight > environmental and development problems. > - USA does not recognize the United Nations target of 0.72232140f GDP to > official development aid, or any other ODA target. > - USA interprets that the text regarding corporate accountability > improvements does not require any new actions. > - USA announces that it will not accept any of the biodiversity text to > evolve into legally binding commitments. And they also gave the > impression that this applies to rest of the text as well. And USA=20 > announced that they take sustainable development very seriously. > > The official plenary speech of Colin Powell earlier the same day had > the same attitude and it was interrupted several times by loud booing. > The Wall Street Journal described in its editorial September 6-8 these > incidents the following way: "How little interest some of the=20 > delegates had in a rational discussion of their first principles was=20 > on display Wednesday, when US Secretary of State Colin Powell was=20 > jeered and interrupted as he attempted to address the US approach to=20 > environmental issues and economic growth." For Wall Street Journal the > purpose of the WSSD was to "develop international environmental=20 > bureaucracy" in the name of "phantom threats" with the result of=20 > "keeping the poor from improving their lot". > > It is necessary to note that the business and industry sector did not > share the US views in the WSSD. On the contrary, they strongly=20 > promoted corporate accountability and targeted actions in most areas. > > Thus, it is exceptionally small minority of people that the Bush > administration has so strongly devoted to serve, with exceptionally=20 > little consideration of the rest. > > > Regards, > Ari Lampinen > Finnish society for environmental sciences > > --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor Dr. Aldo de Moor Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 11:00:07 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0870757007; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F19A356FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-306.charmander.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.75.50] helo=vaio) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17oT6m-0005qo-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 19:18:00 +0100 Message-ID: <002201c2582c$e1a6b740$324b87d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <003501c25826$fbb156a0$aa01010a@collaboratory> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:15:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org How then, would America operate its foreign policy? -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Maloney" To: Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 6:33 PM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Aldo, It is precisely the fawning over these foolish and counterproductive "discussion and negotiation structures" that causes and sustains severe problems. Look how Iraq treats the UN -- like the big, cruel JOKE it is, for example. How about moral relativism of the attack of Sept 11 -- actively debated at the UN in one of your dopey "discussion and negotiation structures"? How can you rationalized well-manicured executives at the World Bank, for example, offering up loans to corrupt leaders and their countries knowing FULL WELL they will NEVER be able to repay the principal? This egregious practice has sustained decades of poverty, destruction and death. Please don't be so naïve. This is not about withdraw, it simple, man-on-the-street, common sense. The only moral obligation the USA has is to Americans. If Americans, in turn, wish to participate as private citizens in the world community, they are welcome and encouraged. Again the UN, is a bloated, ineffective toothless tiger. It needs to be retired along with all its phony pretense and elites. One great suggestion is to move the whole mess off 1st Ave (and GVA) to Burkina Faso. Just see how much faster decisions would be made operating from Western Africa. It would be a miracle! (Besides, it would solve the parking problem.) -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Aldo de Moor Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:00 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Is this e-mail a joke?! If the US would no longer use any of the world's resources, have no negative impact on global climate, would no longer meddle around in client and other states politics, would not use foreign wars to cover up domestic problems, THEN you can withdraw from the world and do your own thing! Since this is clearly not the case, the US have a practical and moral obligation to convince the other 95% of humanity of the wisdom of its policies through - admittedly imperfect - discussion and negotiation structures like the UN, not through cynical powerplay! Aldo On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, John Maloney wrote: > Greetings -- > > I applaud the USA standing-up for her sovereignty! > > These phony envirocrats are as sickening as the demented free-trade > purists. > > The NY Times bashing republican administrations is about as original > as cold toast. Give us a break and something with intellectual or > editorial merit. > > When the world stuck its finger in the eye of America on 9/11, at the > World "Trade" Center and other places, it became clear that less > internationalism and globalism is the correct path for the country. > > Active participation in meta-government like the UN, leads to more > terror, war, poverty and destruction across-the-board. > > Let arrogant Finnish environmental blowhards slam the USA all they > want, but do not, never, allow the USA to be subsumed by the > globalists, particularly with supra-governmental boondoggles like > Johannesburg. > > Ironically, it is the counterfeit, unelected diplomats and their > free-trade minions that have created, and indeed, sustain global > poverty and environmental destruction. > > Sometimes, the smallest things help create the greatest, most > significant lift and change. It is time that the greater USA follow > the lead of the mighty LaVerkin, Utah (pop. 3,400). This is truly an > unfinished revolution. To wit, > > "Most city councils focus on potholes rather than peacekeeping, but > this Fourth of July, civic leaders in LaVerkin, fired another shot > heard round the world. By a vote of 3 to 2, the City Council of this > tiny Western town made history by declaring independence - from the > United Nations. > > Neighboring Virgin, Utah (pop. 400) passed a similar measure July 19. > > Under the new ordinance, city property will not bear UN symbols, no > resident will participate in the "involuntary servitude" of UN > operations, and municipal funds will not be spent to support UN > activities. Those who disagree must register with the city and post > yard signs that read, "United Nations work conducted here." > > Opponents worked overtime to caricature the resolution's backers as > conspiracy-peddling, gun-toting zealots still disappointed that Y2K > fizzled. > > Not so. They're average citizens of a state where 83% of land belongs > to the federal government, and residents of a town near Zion National > Park, a site already requisitioned by the UN's World Heritage > Committee. LaVerkin understands encroachment. "We live in the West and > we see parks now where part of the fees that they earn go to the UN > because it is a biosphere," Councilman Al Snow said. "I can see our > country's sovereignty slowly slipping away." > > The pundit chorus clucks that the move is symbolic ploy with a short > shelf-life. More likely, LaVerkin is cresting the first wave of a > global sea change. > > Mayor Dan Howard hopes "LaVerkin is the crucible to get the rest of > the cities and the national government to listen." > > They're already listening, Mr. Mayor. From Ireland and Denmark where > voters just sent the EU back to Brussels to other small towns in > Washington and New Mexico considering "UN free-zones" of their own, > sovereignty is back in the saddle. > > Had our forefathers returned to fete our nation's founding, they would > have been gratified by the Capitol fireworks and Philadelphia > performances. > > But the brave souls who transformed themselves from King George's > subjects to freedom's champions might have enjoyed LaVerkin more. For > in that Utah corner, the patriots who staked their sacred honor on the > first declaration would have recognized a familiar insouciance and > felt right at home in the country they left us." > > -jtm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of > garyrichmond@rcn.com > Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 5:33 PM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet > > > This article from NYTimes.com > has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. > > > The lead editorial of today's New York Times shows that at least one > wing of the American press is capable of soundly criticizing > Bush--even on the eve of the 9/11 tragedy. > > Jack Park wrote: > > From: elohimjl > > From: Ari Lampinen > To: Inesnet > Subject: 9/11/02: USA evolved as #1 rogue nation > > USA Today had a cover story on August 14 2002 on the sentiments of > Bush administration policy across the world. It included a photo of a > demonstration in London with a large US map with text "#1 ROGUE > NATION". > > Orwellian language was also used by International Herald Tribune in > its editorial on September 7-8 2002 on the results of the Johannesburg > World Summit on Sustainable Development: they quoted somebody as > calling USA and OPEC alliance as "AXIS OF OIL". Behind this, as the > editorial puts it was that "the conference was diminished by the > unenthusiastic participation of the United States" and the OPEC/USA > cartel succeeded in their goal "to oppose clear and binding targets to > increase the use of solar and wind power". > > The renewable energy issue was the last one to be agreed in the WSSD > Plan of Implementation. It was the most important thing for the Bush > administration not to have any targets and timetables for the energy > sector transformation towards sustainable development. Because the > opposite was a top priority for the EU this issue was settled only > after US succeeded in getting G77, i.e. the group of virtually all > developing countries to support its stand in exchange of having > targets included for health sector, another major theme of the summit > where US had blocked concrete action until the tradeoff. > > As one EU negotiator put it, the USA is the main stumbling block of > international negotiations. > > The continuation of the selfish unilateralism of the Bush > administration and its faithful mate Australia was recognized by the > audience of the final plenary of the WSSD in September 4, in the > reactions to the speeches of parties given after the adoption of the > Plan of Implementation. All except the two countries received > applauds. Australia was the only country whose final speech received > total silence. And the USA was the only one that was greeted with > spontaneous boos from the audience of ministers, diplomats and > stakeholders from almost 200 countries. This was the second time I > witnessed this code of diplomatic conduct: in Bonn climate conference > last year, when the political concensus of the Kyoto protocol details > was reached with USA the only country out of 179 parties to disagree, > the US speech was the only one receiving booing and all the other were > applauded to. > > In its intervention after the adoption of the WSSD Plan of > Implementation USA made several reservations including: > - USA does not recognize the Rio principle #7, i.e. common and > differentiated responsibilities. It means that USA regards unfair that > they would be expected to do more than developing countries to fight > environmental and development problems. > - USA does not recognize the United Nations target of 0.72232140f GDP to > official development aid, or any other ODA target. > - USA interprets that the text regarding corporate accountability > improvements does not require any new actions. > - USA announces that it will not accept any of the biodiversity text to > evolve into legally binding commitments. And they also gave the > impression that this applies to rest of the text as well. And USA > announced that they take sustainable development very seriously. > > The official plenary speech of Colin Powell earlier the same day had > the same attitude and it was interrupted several times by loud booing. > The Wall Street Journal described in its editorial September 6-8 these > incidents the following way: "How little interest some of the > delegates had in a rational discussion of their first principles was > on display Wednesday, when US Secretary of State Colin Powell was > jeered and interrupted as he attempted to address the US approach to > environmental issues and economic growth." For Wall Street Journal the > purpose of the WSSD was to "develop international environmental > bureaucracy" in the name of "phantom threats" with the result of > "keeping the poor from improving their lot". > > It is necessary to note that the business and industry sector did not > share the US views in the WSSD. On the contrary, they strongly > promoted corporate accountability and targeted actions in most areas. > > Thus, it is exceptionally small minority of people that the Bush > administration has so strongly devoted to serve, with exceptionally > little consideration of the rest. > > > Regards, > Ari Lampinen > Finnish society for environmental sciences > > -- ======================================================================== == ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor Dr. Aldo de Moor Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands ======================================================================== == From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 11:00:17 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 067E05700C; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C69457007 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020909181816.PMHX25823.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:18:16 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020909110542.01faeed0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 11:15:20 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet In-Reply-To: <003501c25826$fbb156a0$aa01010a@collaboratory> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org John, Quoting from http://www.kmcluster.com, which, if I'm not mistaken, you= founded: "Open, frank dialogue, productive interactions and participant-led=20 community-of-practice are among the most effective means to advance KM and= =20 enterprise collaboration for all organizations. " I observe that you are certainly *frank* in the dialog you offer to the=20 unrev forum. Productive? Not sure about that. Clearly, I think, from the= =20 *enterprise* point of view, which kmcluster seems to be all about, then=20 bashing the UN, heavy-handed *American* chest thumping, and all that seems= =20 in order, and you, again, I think, seem to be doing that very well. But, I must confess that I, perhaps wrongly so, think that the unrev forum= =20 is a discussion about Douglas Engelbart's concerns for complex, urgent=20 problems. And, I think that Aldo is pointing out that those complex, urgent= =20 problems are not best attended to when the *American* chest-thumping is the= =20 loudest signal. Maybe it's just my own, perhaps wrong-headed, opinion=20 that, when viewed from the Moon, we are less than ants running around in=20 ant hills; we aren't even visible, and therefore, we ought to be looking at= =20 a much larger picture than one embraced from a purely *American* point of= view. I would therefore hazard the dangerous conjecture that it is not useful to= =20 take a purely *American* enterprise point of view when trying to conduct=20 meaningful dialog in the spirit of Dr. Engelbart's vision; there must be=20 other forums that would better suit your needs. Jack Park At 10:33 AM 9/9/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Aldo, > >It is precisely the fawning over these foolish and counterproductive >"discussion and negotiation structures" that causes and sustains severe >problems. > >Look how Iraq treats the UN -- like the big, cruel JOKE it is, for >example. > >How about moral relativism of the attack of Sept 11 -- actively debated >at the UN in one of your dopey "discussion and negotiation structures"? > >How can you rationalized well-manicured executives at the World Bank, >for example, offering up loans to corrupt leaders and their countries >knowing FULL WELL they will NEVER be able to repay the principal? This >egregious practice has sustained decades of poverty, destruction and >death. > >Please don't be so na=EFve. > >This is not about withdraw, it simple, man-on-the-street, common sense. >The only moral obligation the USA has is to Americans. If Americans, in >turn, wish to participate as private citizens in the world community, >they are welcome and encouraged. > >Again the UN, is a bloated, ineffective toothless tiger. It needs to be >retired along with all its phony pretense and elites. One great >suggestion is to move the whole mess off 1st Ave (and GVA) to Burkina >Faso. Just see how much faster decisions would be made operating from >Western Africa. It would be a miracle! (Besides, it would solve the >parking problem.) > >-jtm > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >[mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Aldo de Moor >Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 10:00 AM >To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet > > > >Is this e-mail a joke?! If the US would no longer use any of the world's >resources, have no negative impact on global climate, would no longer >meddle around in client and other states politics, would not use foreign >wars to cover up domestic problems, THEN you can withdraw from the world >and do your own thing! > >Since this is clearly not the case, the US have a practical and moral >obligation to convince the other 95% of humanity of the wisdom of its >policies through - admittedly imperfect - discussion and negotiation >structures like the UN, not through cynical powerplay! > >Aldo > >On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, John Maloney wrote: > > > Greetings -- > > > > I applaud the USA standing-up for her sovereignty! > > > > These phony envirocrats are as sickening as the demented free-trade > > purists. > > > > The NY Times bashing republican administrations is about as original > > as cold toast. Give us a break and something with intellectual or > > editorial merit. > > > > When the world stuck its finger in the eye of America on 9/11, at the > > World "Trade" Center and other places, it became clear that less > > internationalism and globalism is the correct path for the country. > > > > Active participation in meta-government like the UN, leads to more > > terror, war, poverty and destruction across-the-board. > > > > Let arrogant Finnish environmental blowhards slam the USA all they > > want, but do not, never, allow the USA to be subsumed by the > > globalists, particularly with supra-governmental boondoggles like > > Johannesburg. > > > > Ironically, it is the counterfeit, unelected diplomats and their > > free-trade minions that have created, and indeed, sustain global > > poverty and environmental destruction. > > > > Sometimes, the smallest things help create the greatest, most > > significant lift and change. It is time that the greater USA follow > > the lead of the mighty LaVerkin, Utah (pop. 3,400). This is truly an > > unfinished revolution. To wit, > > > > "Most city councils focus on potholes rather than peacekeeping, but > > this Fourth of July, civic leaders in LaVerkin, fired another shot > > heard round the world. By a vote of 3 to 2, the City Council of this > > tiny Western town made history by declaring independence - from the > > United Nations. > > > > Neighboring Virgin, Utah (pop. 400) passed a similar measure July 19. > > > > Under the new ordinance, city property will not bear UN symbols, no > > resident will participate in the "involuntary servitude" of UN > > operations, and municipal funds will not be spent to support UN > > activities. Those who disagree must register with the city and post > > yard signs that read, "United Nations work conducted here." > > > > Opponents worked overtime to caricature the resolution's backers as > > conspiracy-peddling, gun-toting zealots still disappointed that Y2K > > fizzled. > > > > Not so. They're average citizens of a state where 83% of land belongs > > to the federal government, and residents of a town near Zion National > > Park, a site already requisitioned by the UN's World Heritage > > Committee. LaVerkin understands encroachment. "We live in the West and > > > we see parks now where part of the fees that they earn go to the UN > > because it is a biosphere," Councilman Al Snow said. "I can see our > > country's sovereignty slowly slipping away." > > > > The pundit chorus clucks that the move is symbolic ploy with a short > > shelf-life. More likely, LaVerkin is cresting the first wave of a > > global sea change. > > > > Mayor Dan Howard hopes "LaVerkin is the crucible to get the rest of > > the cities and the national government to listen." > > > > They're already listening, Mr. Mayor. From Ireland and Denmark where > > voters just sent the EU back to Brussels to other small towns in > > Washington and New Mexico considering "UN free-zones" of their own, > > sovereignty is back in the saddle. > > > > Had our forefathers returned to fete our nation's founding, they would > > have been gratified by the Capitol fireworks and Philadelphia > > performances. > > > > But the brave souls who transformed themselves from King George's > > subjects to freedom's champions might have enjoyed LaVerkin more. For > > in that Utah corner, the patriots who staked their sacred honor on the > > > first declaration would have recognized a familiar insouciance and > > felt right at home in the country they left us." > > > > -jtm > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of > > garyrichmond@rcn.com > > Sent: Sunday, September 08, 2002 5:33 PM > > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet > > > > > > This article from NYTimes.com > > has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. > > > > > > The lead editorial of today's New York Times shows that at least one > > wing of the American press is capable of soundly criticizing > > Bush--even on the eve of the 9/11 tragedy. > > > > Jack Park wrote: > > > > From: elohimjl > > > > From: Ari Lampinen > > To: Inesnet > > Subject: 9/11/02: USA evolved as #1 rogue nation > > > > USA Today had a cover story on August 14 2002 on the sentiments of > > Bush administration policy across the world. It included a photo of a > > demonstration in London with a large US map with text "#1 ROGUE > > NATION". > > > > Orwellian language was also used by International Herald Tribune in > > its editorial on September 7-8 2002 on the results of the Johannesburg > > > World Summit on Sustainable Development: they quoted somebody as > > calling USA and OPEC alliance as "AXIS OF OIL". Behind this, as the > > editorial puts it was that "the conference was diminished by the > > unenthusiastic participation of the United States" and the OPEC/USA > > cartel succeeded in their goal "to oppose clear and binding targets to > > > increase the use of solar and wind power". > > > > The renewable energy issue was the last one to be agreed in the WSSD > > Plan of Implementation. It was the most important thing for the Bush > > administration not to have any targets and timetables for the energy > > sector transformation towards sustainable development. Because the > > opposite was a top priority for the EU this issue was settled only > > after US succeeded in getting G77, i.e. the group of virtually all > > developing countries to support its stand in exchange of having > > targets included for health sector, another major theme of the summit > > where US had blocked concrete action until the tradeoff. > > > > As one EU negotiator put it, the USA is the main stumbling block of > > international negotiations. > > > > The continuation of the selfish unilateralism of the Bush > > administration and its faithful mate Australia was recognized by the > > audience of the final plenary of the WSSD in September 4, in the > > reactions to the speeches of parties given after the adoption of the > > Plan of Implementation. All except the two countries received > > applauds. Australia was the only country whose final speech received > > total silence. And the USA was the only one that was greeted with > > spontaneous boos from the audience of ministers, diplomats and > > stakeholders from almost 200 countries. This was the second time I > > witnessed this code of diplomatic conduct: in Bonn climate conference > > last year, when the political concensus of the Kyoto protocol details > > was reached with USA the only country out of 179 parties to disagree, > > the US speech was the only one receiving booing and all the other were > > > applauded to. > > > > In its intervention after the adoption of the WSSD Plan of > > Implementation USA made several reservations including: > > - USA does not recognize the Rio principle #7, i.e. common and > > differentiated responsibilities. It means that USA regards unfair >that > > they would be expected to do more than developing countries to fight > > environmental and development problems. > > - USA does not recognize the United Nations target of 0.72232140f GDP >to > > official development aid, or any other ODA target. > > - USA interprets that the text regarding corporate accountability > > improvements does not require any new actions. > > - USA announces that it will not accept any of the biodiversity text >to > > evolve into legally binding commitments. And they also gave the > > impression that this applies to rest of the text as well. And USA > > announced that they take sustainable development very seriously. > > > > The official plenary speech of Colin Powell earlier the same day had > > the same attitude and it was interrupted several times by loud booing. > > > The Wall Street Journal described in its editorial September 6-8 these > > > incidents the following way: "How little interest some of the > > delegates had in a rational discussion of their first principles was > > on display Wednesday, when US Secretary of State Colin Powell was > > jeered and interrupted as he attempted to address the US approach to > > environmental issues and economic growth." For Wall Street Journal the > > > purpose of the WSSD was to "develop international environmental > > bureaucracy" in the name of "phantom threats" with the result of > > "keeping the poor from improving their lot". > > > > It is necessary to note that the business and industry sector did not > > share the US views in the WSSD. On the contrary, they strongly > > promoted corporate accountability and targeted actions in most areas. > > > > Thus, it is exceptionally small minority of people that the Bush > > administration has so strongly devoted to serve, with exceptionally > > little consideration of the rest. > > > > > > Regards, > > Ari Lampinen > > Finnish society for environmental sciences > > > > > >-- >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=3D=3D > ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl >IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 > |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor > >Dr. Aldo de Moor >Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg >University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands >=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=3D=3D --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 11:23:49 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B9DD757007; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail3.atl.registeredsite.com (mail3.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.77]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2037E56FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kmcluster.com (mail.kmcluster.com [64.226.164.169]) by mail3.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.2/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g89IfjWK029388 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:41:46 -0400 Received: from collaboratory [64.226.164.169] by mail.kmcluster.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AB69115D0118; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 14:41:45 -0400 From: "John Maloney" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:41:43 -0700 Organization: KM Cluster Message-ID: <003b01c25830$8b5f5370$aa01010a@collaboratory> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020909110542.01faeed0@thinkalong.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Jack, Thanks for your thoughtful message. You might have your wires crossed. This thread was not started by me! I reject the typical, knee-jerk response to anyone that might criticize the phony international organizations like the UN and it's nefarious tentacles of WTO, GATT, NAFTA and the ilk. These groups are deeply flawed. They are the cause, in large part, to the VERY problems Aldo was hinting too. Wake up. To try an ameliorate some of the biggest barriers to unrev is a legitimate use of the forum. Illigetimate liberal bile from the NY Times and Finnish ecoterroists is not. US Foreign Policy works fine WITHOUT the consent of the UN. It's called bilateralism and it worked GREAT for 150 years. -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Jack Park Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 11:15 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 11:51:59 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 65E8E56FF9; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B63F456FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 11:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020909191000.TBIT9751.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@sony> for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:10:00 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020909114232.01fa7100@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 12:07:04 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet In-Reply-To: <003b01c25830$8b5f5370$aa01010a@collaboratory> References: <4.2.2.20020909110542.01faeed0@thinkalong.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org John, Actually, in the end, I think the thread was started by me :o) I strongly believe that there are some important points of interest coming out of the results of the conference cited here. Gary jumped in with more material, Aldo added some more, but, if I'm not mistaken, and I think I'm pretty wide awake here, the only bashing and heavy-handed verbiage came from you. Since we are both offering opinions in a, what the hell, GOF not-too-productive pissing contest, I would have to offer my own opinion that your statements ring pretty knee-jerkish, right up there with mine! "Nefarious tentacles" indeed. "liberal bile" and "Finnish ecoterrorists" are terms I would have expected to come from Rush Limbaugh, who has a entertainer's reputation to uphold. Those terms coming from the leader of a forum on knowledge management, OTOH, are a rather unexpected, and disappointing surprise. The really sad part about this particular pissing contest is that I think you have some useful points to make. I think, however, that the protocols you have chosen to apply to making those points are, in my own personal opinion, far less than diplomatic, polite, or even useful to this forum. I do not think I am at all qualified to be a "net-nanny" in this forum, for I, too, have gone on outrageous bashing binges in the past. But, I have chosen to do so now simply because, for me, your venomous rhetoric simply overflowed my own buffers, and they are pretty deep! A point you make that I would argue with is this: "...bilateralism ... worked GREAT [for the US] for 150 years." I tend to think that one of the tenets of good knowledge management covers the issue of forecasting, and, in light of the quoted point you make, I tend to think that, from time to time, a good knowledge manager would take the time to challenge past assumptions, of which the quoted point is an instance. As the leader of a knowledge management community, one that regularly hosts lively and engaging speakers on a range of topics, I would think that you would want to hold that point up for a penetrating examination, and I would think you would want to do that real soon now. Jack At 11:41 AM 9/9/2002 -0700, John Maloney wrote: >Jack, > >Thanks for your thoughtful message. > >You might have your wires crossed. > >This thread was not started by me! > >I reject the typical, knee-jerk response to anyone that might criticize >the phony international organizations like the UN and it's nefarious >tentacles of WTO, GATT, NAFTA and the ilk. > >These groups are deeply flawed. They are the cause, in large part, to >the VERY problems Aldo was hinting too. > >Wake up. > >To try an ameliorate some of the biggest barriers to unrev is a >legitimate use of the forum. > >Illigetimate liberal bile from the NY Times and Finnish ecoterroists is >not. > >US Foreign Policy works fine WITHOUT the consent of the UN. It's called >bilateralism and it worked GREAT for 150 years. > >-jtm --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 12:27:57 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E436C56FFF; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail9.atl.registeredsite.com (mail9.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.83]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4A8FE56FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kmcluster.com (mail.kmcluster.com [64.226.164.169]) by mail9.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.2/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g89JjsNQ025827 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 15:45:54 -0400 Received: from collaboratory [64.226.164.169] by mail.kmcluster.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AA7112990118; Mon, 09 Sep 2002 15:45:53 -0400 From: "John Maloney" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:45:51 -0700 Organization: KM Cluster Message-ID: <004501c25839$81627a10$aa01010a@collaboratory> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020909114232.01fa7100@thinkalong.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Jack, Thanks again for your message. Again, I did NOT start this exercise. Since you did, then you are welcome to kill this thread anytime. Please re-read the verbiage in the ridiculous editorial you sent. My response was in-kind; stooping to the level of histrionics and exaggeration was simply a technique to point out the idiocy and leanings of the editorial content. Calling the USA a "Rogue Nation" is beyond the pale, for example. Please give your double standard a rest. It is unbecoming and counterproductive. While you at it, please try to be more circumspect with such volatile, out-of-touch blather from the NY Times. Of course all editorial content is welcome as long it carries some merit and is not so incendiary. -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Jack Park Sent: Monday, September 09, 2002 12:07 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 12:28:00 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 891A056FFF; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1AC4556FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13454 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:45:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g89Jjti18617 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7CFA9D.BC408C@sun.com> Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 12:46:37 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric to Eric: Motives for accessing the World Wide Outline References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org stephen white wrote: > On Saturday, September 7, 2002, at 09:24 AM, ADM Staff wrote: > > As you asked for slogan to motivate you to download ADM and access the > > demo > > What gets me interested is screenshots, and lots of them... Ditto. Too many programs with wonderful-sounding functionality come with atrocious interfaces. Makes for bad odds when downloading. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 12:33:16 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 3621257007; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from posti.pp.htv.fi (posti.pp.htv.fi [212.90.64.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 10C8356FFF for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uiah.fi ([213.243.148.197]) by posti.pp.htv.fi (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g89Jpd621066 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 22:51:39 +0300 (EETDST) Message-ID: <3D7CFBAA.8000708@uiah.fi> Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 22:51:06 +0300 From: Teemu Leinonen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020722 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fle3 1.3.0 - CSCL software Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Hi, UIAH Media Lab, University of Art and Design Helsinki, Finland has released the first non-beta version of a computer supported collaborative learning (CSCL) software, called Fle3. Fle3 is Open Source and Free Software released under the GNU GPL. Fle3 is designed to support group centered work that concentrates on creating and developing expressions of knowledge (i.e. knowledge artefacts). The design has been inspired, among other things, by Dr. Engelbart's work. I thought that, people in this list could be interested in Fle3 and give us valuable feedback. Fle3 WebTops can be used by teachers and students to store different items (documents, files, links, knowledge building notes) related to their studies, organize them to folders and share them with others. WebTop also includes "shared folder" for each study work or project. With Fle3 Knowledge Building tool groups may carry out knowledge building dialogues, theory building and debates by storing their thoughts into a shared database. The study group may use Knowledge Types to scaffold and structure their dialogues. The Knowledge Type sets are fully editable and one may export and import them. Fle3 comes with two default Knowledge Type sets: (1) Progressive Inquiry, and (2) Design Thinking. Fle3 Jamming tool is a shared space for collaborative construction of digital artefacts (pictures, text, audio, video). A study group may work together with some digital artefacts by uploading and downloading files. Versions are tracked automatically and different versions are displayed graphically. Jamming can be used for many kind of collaborative work requiring versioning. You will find the Fle3 1.3.0 from: http://fle3.uiah.fi Best regards, Teemu Leinonen "another Finnish ecoterrorist" :-) ____________________________ Teemu Leinonen http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ Office: + 358 9 756 30 296 GSM: +358 50 351 6796 Media Lab, UIAH Helsinki http://www.mlab.uiah.fi Future Learning Environment 3 http://fle3.uiah.fi From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 12:39:19 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C170956FFB; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from julesburg.uits.indiana.edu (julesburg.uits.indiana.edu [129.79.1.75]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 33F9856FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from iago.ucs.indiana.edu (iago.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.207]) by julesburg.uits.indiana.edu (8.12.1/8.12.1/IUPO) with ESMTP id g89JvEeP003674 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (klabarre@localhost) by iago.ucs.indiana.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.2iago-imap) with SMTP id OAA12238 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:57:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 14:57:14 -0500 (EST) From: Kathryn La Barre X-Sender: klabarre@iago.ucs.indiana.edu To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fle3 1.3.0 - CSCL software In-Reply-To: <3D7CFBAA.8000708@uiah.fi> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Teemu Leinonen > "another Finnish ecoterrorist" :-) Nice to see that not everyone has lost their sense of humor today. Your work looks quite interesting. Tempers and emotions are running high these days, and many Americans are acting like juveniles (nothing new there.) On behalf of all of the Americans who first consider themselves to be world citizens, I apologize for all the rest. Best of luck with your work. Kathryn From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 12:49:20 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E424156FF9; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:49:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 405E156FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 12:49:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020909200721.VWOB9751.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@sony> for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:07:21 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020909125501.020cf6c0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 13:04:24 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fle3 1.3.0 - CSCL software In-Reply-To: <3D7CFBAA.8000708@uiah.fi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I think, from looking at the screenshots, that Fle3 looks outrageously interesting and useful. It seems that some thinking that is greatly parallel to that which is going into my NexistWiki experiment is embedded in Fle3. Who knows? Maybe I got my ideas from reading about the Fle3 predecessors; I'll never know, but I'm quite sure I've never had an original thought. From the perspective of a passionate open source (but not Free Software) hacker, unfortunately, I will not be able to download Fle3 and play with it, and, I suspect, many of the other OHS-developer wannabes on this list won't either. Nothing in the OHS plan calls for GPL-licensed software; the OHS license has been based on Apache for some time now, and there has been a bit of discussion about looking at the Apple Public Source License as a new license model. Of course, if the UIAH Media Lab were to change to the LGPL license... Cheers Jack At 10:51 PM 9/9/2002 +0300, Teemu Leinonen ("another Finnish ecoterrorist") wrote: >Hi, > >UIAH Media Lab, University of Art and Design Helsinki, Finland has >released the first non-beta version of a computer supported collaborative >learning (CSCL) software, called Fle3. Fle3 is Open Source and Free >Software released under the GNU GPL. > >Fle3 is designed to support group centered work that concentrates on >creating and developing expressions of knowledge (i.e. knowledge >artefacts). The design has been inspired, among other things, by Dr. >Engelbart's work. I thought that, people in this list could be interested >in Fle3 and give us valuable feedback. > >Fle3 WebTops can be used by teachers and students to store different items >(documents, files, links, knowledge building notes) related to their >studies, organize them to folders and share them with others. WebTop also >includes "shared folder" for each study work or project. > >With Fle3 Knowledge Building tool groups may carry out knowledge building >dialogues, theory building and debates by storing their thoughts into a >shared database. The study group may use Knowledge Types to scaffold and >structure their dialogues. The Knowledge Type sets are fully editable and >one may export and import them. Fle3 comes with two default Knowledge Type >sets: (1) Progressive Inquiry, and (2) Design Thinking. > >Fle3 Jamming tool is a shared space for collaborative construction of >digital artefacts (pictures, text, audio, video). A study group may work >together with some digital artefacts by uploading and downloading files. >Versions are tracked automatically and different versions are displayed >graphically. Jamming can be used for many kind of collaborative work >requiring versioning. > >You will find the Fle3 1.3.0 from: > >http://fle3.uiah.fi > >Best regards, > > Teemu Leinonen > "another Finnish ecoterrorist" :-) > >____________________________ >Teemu Leinonen >http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ >Office: + 358 9 756 30 296 >GSM: +358 50 351 6796 >Media Lab, UIAH Helsinki >http://www.mlab.uiah.fi >Future Learning Environment 3 >http://fle3.uiah.fi --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 13:08:34 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1595256FF7; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from posti.pp.htv.fi (posti.pp.htv.fi [212.90.64.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC7B156FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uiah.fi ([213.243.148.197]) by posti.pp.htv.fi (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g89KR9629329 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 23:27:09 +0300 (EETDST) Message-ID: <3D7D03FB.1080603@uiah.fi> Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 23:26:35 +0300 From: Teemu Leinonen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020722 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fle3 1.3.0 - CSCL software References: <4.2.2.20020909125501.020cf6c0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Dear Jack Park, Jack Park wrote: > From the perspective of a passionate open source (but not Free > Software) hacker, unfortunately, I will not be able to download Fle3 and > play with it, and, I suspect, many of the other OHS-developer wannabes > on this list won't either. Nothing in the OHS plan calls for > GPL-licensed software; the OHS license has been based on Apache for some > time now, and there has been a bit of discussion about looking at the > Apple Public Source License as a new license model. Could you, please, clarify why the OHS-developers can not use Open Source (and Free) Software released under the GNU General Public Licence (GPL)? > Of course, if the UIAH Media Lab were to change to the LGPL license... Let us know why we should used LGPL instead of GPL. Best regards, - Teemu Leinonen ____________________________ Teemu Leinonen http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ Office: + 358 9 756 30 296 GSM: +358 50 351 6796 Media Lab, UIAH Helsinki http://www.mlab.uiah.fi Future Learning Environment 3 http://fle3.uiah.fi From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 13:33:17 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EAB8A56FF7; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5729356FF5 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020909205115.XACX25823.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 20:51:15 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020909132759.01fbf7c0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 13:48:19 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fle3 1.3.0 - CSCL software In-Reply-To: <3D7D03FB.1080603@uiah.fi> References: <4.2.2.20020909125501.020cf6c0@thinkalong.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org What I say here is just liable to bring a response from the creator of the GPL license; it has in the past and I don't see why it won't again. The problem (NOTE: the use of the word *problem* requires some qualification: a subjective connotation is placed on its use: that there is a *problem* at all is purely one based on personal belief systems involved -- religious, though they may be, at times), with the use of GPL is that it is known to be a viral license. Emphasis on the word viral. GPL infects, by design, any software that comes into contact with it. NOTE: the word *contact* is one that is wide open to interpretations; for the time being, it seems fine running Apache or BSD licensed products on GNU Linux (GPL), probably because the word *contact* is not really appropriate in that instance. Were I or any other OHS-developer wannabe to build add-on features that *connect* to Fle3, and here, the word *connect* gets pretty tricky, then our code *must* be GPL-licensed as well. As I said earlier, we, that is, the group of us who are OHS-developer wannabes, under the direction of Douglas Engelbart himself, have agreed to abide by BSD-like (read: non-viral) licenses. Why switch to LGPL? Because it is non-viral. Now, I think that I haven't said any of the magic words here that would or should provoke a response by GPL's creator, so let me say a few now. The design of the GPL license, according to my own interpretations of the historical writings about it, came from some very legitimate reactions to software licensing policies. It is my opinion that the motivations were real and the GPL license was/is an honest effort to deal with those policies. It is my opinion that the LGPL license is as good a solution as you can get, but, if I'm not mistaken, it came after the GPL. You will sometimes see LGPL referred to as Lesser GPL, and sometimes referred to as Library GPL. Either way, it has most of the "teeth" of the GPL, but none of the viral nature. By downloading LGPL software, I am less concerned that anything I learn from that code or products that I build which complement that code, will come under the watchful eye of those who champion and defend the GPL license. I simply don't want to go there; the views of other OHS-developer wannabes may vary, but I suspect that, on average, that explanation covers the big picture. I have observed two rather large camps, both equally secure in their belief structures: those who do GPL, and those who do not GPL. Along the way, I have written to some GPL users and asked them why they did so. Some reply, and rightfully so, that GPL satisfies their needs. Others, and this is where things get interesting, have replied with words like "Wow! I just read GPL. I'm switching to LGPL". When I queried some of those individuals after the switch, the response to "why did you use GPL in the first place?" was words like: "well, that's what everyone else is using." Would that other religious "wars" could be so simple... Cheers Jack At 11:26 PM 9/9/2002 +0300, you wrote: >Dear Jack Park, > >Jack Park wrote: >> From the perspective of a passionate open source (but not Free >> Software) hacker, unfortunately, I will not be able to download Fle3 and >> play with it, and, I suspect, many of the other OHS-developer wannabes >> on this list won't either. Nothing in the OHS plan calls for >> GPL-licensed software; the OHS license has been based on Apache for some >> time now, and there has been a bit of discussion about looking at the >> Apple Public Source License as a new license model. > >Could you, please, clarify why the OHS-developers can not use Open Source >(and Free) Software released under the GNU General Public Licence (GPL)? > >>Of course, if the UIAH Media Lab were to change to the LGPL license... > >Let us know why we should used LGPL instead of GPL. > >Best regards, > > - Teemu Leinonen >____________________________ >Teemu Leinonen >http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ >Office: + 358 9 756 30 296 >GSM: +358 50 351 6796 >Media Lab, UIAH Helsinki >http://www.mlab.uiah.fi >Future Learning Environment 3 >http://fle3.uiah.fi --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 13:41:01 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 72A7256FF9; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D338956FF7 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:40:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12625 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:58:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g89Kwui08423 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 13:58:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7D0BBB.FBCD9E8C@sun.com> Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 13:59:39 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet References: <004501c25839$81627a10$aa01010a@collaboratory> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org John, You are coming dangerously close to earning a place on my "never reply" list. In the first message, you said "the world stuck its finger in the eye of America on Sep 11th." In the next, you told the writer to stop being naive. In this one, you accuse Jack of holding horrible double standards. I can assure you, if you respond the same way to me, you will not be receiving any further responses. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 16:41:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C07CE56FF5; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4137656FF2 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA06869 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:59:39 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g89Nxci21835 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 16:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7D3615.910143D9@sun.com> Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 17:00:21 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Instant Ontologies: The Strength of Weak Links Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org A few ideas rubbed together the other day, and it occurred to me that a web crawler capable of parsing HTML pages to find links already has enough intelligence to begin constructing a first-cut ontology. Note: The mechanism described here may be something like the idea behind the Teoma search engine (http://www.teoma.com), although they may well have other mechanisms, in addition to this one. The first thought was that "weak links" predict similarity much better than "strong links". ("Strong links" describes clustered material -- material that is in close proximity, with many individual links between them, as well as links to other pages, all of which link to each other. In this context, it makes sense to think of a directory hierarchy as "linked". So it's clear that a collection of pages at a company or a college have something in common, but generally such a collection of pages embodies *many* ontological concepts. So strongly linked pages are not that good for identifying concepts. But if two separate clusters have a single connection between them -- a weak link -- then that link implies *some* kind of similarity. That recognition then entails two further problems: a. Giving a name to the concept that identifies the similarity. b. Separating reference-type links (and other "non-similar") links from links that indicate similarity ("other things of this kind") For example, on a page describing exercises, there could be references to anatomy descriptions, and links to equipment manufacturers, as well as links to similar exercises. Each would be a weak link, but any similarities would be non-obvious. The problem is to identify which links indicate "similarity". But it occurs to me that HTML formatting may well provide enough clues to make some good guesses. Basically, a "weak link" page that gives a list of links is more likely than not to be identifying an ontological concept. The format for such concept references would be: 1. A heading with one or two major words. For example: --Equipment --Exercise Equipment --Exercises --Authors of Note --Signs of the Times 2. A short paragraph of introductory text. 3. List items containing short paragraphs, each with one link Of course, there are some lists that would not be useful. For example, JavaWorld articles always end with a "Resources" section. The concept is obviously not "resources", but is rather the subject matter covered in the article. Still, it would be possible to filter out the limited number of such headings ("for more information", "further reading", and the like, the same way that small words like "of" and "the" would be filtered out. What's left, in the context of the web, would be a collection of named ontological concepts that could be reviewed and edited. Of course, at this point the "ontology" would look like a simple list of concepts, with no ordering or structuring. And duplicate concepts with different names would have to be linked, somehow. But it could be a start. Further examination of structural relationhips might well lead to connections within the ontology. For example, the concept of "bicycles" is identified, and a "parts list" on several pages contains a "derailleur" entry, then perhaps it would be possible to identfiy the "derailleur is part of a bicycle" relationship. Similarly, a book that showed up in the "resources" section of a few pages could lead to "book x is a resource for bicycles". I dunno. It's an interesting possibility -- that with a modicum of semantic knowledge, it might be possible to construct a very sizable ontology from the contents of the web. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 17:14:53 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9331A56FF5; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from posti.pp.htv.fi (posti.pp.htv.fi [212.90.64.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6FDD656FF2 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uiah.fi ([213.243.148.197]) by posti.pp.htv.fi (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id g8A0XQ605717 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 03:33:27 +0300 (EETDST) Message-ID: <3D7D3DAC.3080200@uiah.fi> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 03:32:44 +0300 From: Teemu Leinonen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020722 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] viral licenses References: <4.2.2.20020909125501.020cf6c0@thinkalong.com> <4.2.2.20020909132759.01fbf7c0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Jack Park wrote: > What I say here is just liable to bring a response from the creator of > the GPL license; it has in the past and I don't see why it won't again. > > The problem (NOTE: the use of the word *problem* requires some > qualification: a subjective connotation is placed on its use: that there > is a *problem* at all is purely one based on personal belief systems > involved -- religious, though they may be, at times), with the use of > GPL is that it is known to be a viral license. Greg Lehey writes in an article published at: http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200202/dadvocate.html "People discuss a number of differences between BSD and Linux. In my mind, one of the biggest non-issues is the question of license. The BSD license has fewer restrictions than the GNU General Public License under which Linux is released: the GPL requires that any derivative works also be placed under the GPL. Some people consider this ``viral'' effect to be the work of the devil, and part of rms' plan to take over the world. It's true that it causes certain ethical problems when using GPL code in BSD, but there are usually ways to solve them, assuming good faith on both sides." - Teemu From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 17:27:08 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7EB8556FF5; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C1AE56FF2 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 17:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020910004509.ZGZP19682.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@sony> for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 00:45:09 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020909173717.020ced70@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 17:42:09 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] viral licenses In-Reply-To: <3D7D3DAC.3080200@uiah.fi> References: <4.2.2.20020909125501.020cf6c0@thinkalong.com> <4.2.2.20020909132759.01fbf7c0@thinkalong.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Lehey says "...one of the biggest non-issues is the question of license." That's a matter of opinion, isn't it? I prefer to keep things above the table, cards face up, meaning I don't wish to rely on good faith. As any good attorney would advise (recall: I'm not an attorney and never played one on TV), get it in writing. Good faith is nice. Things in writing are better, and the GPL is pretty much cast in concrete (writing). It's viral. Why it's viral is not a matter of concern here. As I said before, your project looks terrific. 3:32 AM! Do you ever sleep? Cheers Jack At 03:32 AM 9/10/2002 +0300, you wrote: >Jack Park wrote: >>What I say here is just liable to bring a response from the creator of >>the GPL license; it has in the past and I don't see why it won't again. >>The problem (NOTE: the use of the word *problem* requires some >>qualification: a subjective connotation is placed on its use: that there >>is a *problem* at all is purely one based on personal belief systems >>involved -- religious, though they may be, at times), with the use of GPL >>is that it is known to be a viral license. > >Greg Lehey writes in an article published at: > >http://ezine.daemonnews.org/200202/dadvocate.html > >"People discuss a number of differences between BSD and Linux. In my mind, >one of the biggest non-issues is the question of license. The BSD license >has fewer restrictions than the GNU General Public License under which >Linux is released: the GPL requires that any derivative works also be >placed under the GPL. Some people consider this ``viral'' effect to be the >work of the devil, and part of rms' plan to take over the world. It's true >that it causes certain ethical problems when using GPL code in BSD, but >there are usually ways to solve them, assuming good faith on both sides." > >- Teemu --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 9 18:30:52 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A188256FF5; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts7.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.40]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D784356FF2 for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 18:30:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.135]) by tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020910014851.JVW15511.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Mon, 9 Sep 2002 21:48:51 -0400 Message-ID: <3D7D4E9D.8E468135@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2002 21:45:01 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Instant Ontologies: The Strength of Weak Links References: <3D7D3615.910143D9@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric. This is the kind of thinking that could lead to an important tool in the construction of Doug's idea of a continually updated encyclopedia or handbook. What is the next move? Henry Eric Armstrong wrote: > A few ideas rubbed together the other day, and it occurred > to me that a web crawler capable of parsing HTML pages to > find links already has enough intelligence to begin constructing > a first-cut ontology. > > Note: > The mechanism described here may be something like the idea > behind the Teoma search engine (http://www.teoma.com), although > they may well have other mechanisms, in addition to this one. > > The first thought was that "weak links" predict similarity much > better than "strong links". ("Strong links" describes clustered > material -- material that is in close proximity, with many > individual links between them, as well as links to other pages, > all of which link to each other. > > In this context, it makes sense to think of a directory hierarchy as > "linked". So it's clear that a collection of pages at a company or a > college have something in common, but generally such a collection > of pages embodies *many* ontological concepts. So strongly > linked pages are not that good for identifying concepts. > > But if two separate clusters have a single connection > between them -- a weak link -- then that link implies *some* kind > of similarity. That recognition then entails two further problems: > a. Giving a name to the concept that identifies the similarity. > b. Separating reference-type links (and other "non-similar") links > from links that indicate similarity ("other things of this kind") > > For example, on a page describing exercises, there could be > references to anatomy descriptions, and links to equipment > manufacturers, as well as links to similar exercises. Each would > be a weak link, but any similarities would be non-obvious. > > The problem is to identify which links indicate "similarity". But > it occurs to me that HTML formatting may well provide enough > clues to make some good guesses. > > Basically, a "weak link" page that gives a list of links is more likely > than not to be identifying an ontological concept. > > The format for such concept references would be: > > 1. A heading with one or two major words. For example: > --Equipment > --Exercise Equipment > --Exercises > --Authors of Note > --Signs of the Times > > 2. A short paragraph of introductory text. > > 3. List items containing short paragraphs, each with one link > > Of course, there are some lists that would not be useful. For > example, JavaWorld articles always end with a "Resources" > section. The concept is obviously not "resources", but is > rather the subject matter covered in the article. > > Still, it would be possible to filter out the limited number of > such headings ("for more information", "further reading", > and the like, the same way that small words like "of" and > "the" would be filtered out. What's left, in the context of > the web, would be a collection of named ontological > concepts that could be reviewed and edited. > > Of course, at this point the "ontology" would look like a > simple list of concepts, with no ordering or structuring. > And duplicate concepts with different names would have > to be linked, somehow. > > But it could be a start. Further examination of structural > relationhips might well lead to connections within the > ontology. For example, the concept of "bicycles" is > identified, and a "parts list" on several pages contains > a "derailleur" entry, then perhaps it would be possible to > identfiy the "derailleur is part of a bicycle" relationship. > > Similarly, a book that showed up in the "resources" section > of a few pages could lead to "book x is a resource for > bicycles". > > I dunno. It's an interesting possibility -- that with a modicum > of semantic knowledge, it might be possible to construct a > very sizable ontology from the contents of the web. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 07:02:13 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E3A8D56FF4; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail1.atl.registeredsite.com (mail1.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.75]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0C9A56FF2 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:02:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kmcluster.com (mail.kmcluster.com [64.226.164.169]) by mail1.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g8AEK72o019555 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:20:08 -0400 Received: from collaboratory [64.226.164.169] by mail.kmcluster.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AF962B25004E; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:20:06 -0400 From: "John Maloney" To: "UNREV" Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fallacious Reasoning Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:20:00 -0700 Organization: KM Cluster Message-ID: <000101c258d5$2629b0e0$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2589A.79CAD8E0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2589A.79CAD8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric *** Fallacious Because of Being Invalid Appeal to Authority - Improper appeal to authority. An example is when a Nobel laureate in chemistry writes an opinion about a subject she is not an expert such as political science and people then cite him as an authority about political science believing that being considered and expert in one area means they are knowledgeable about others. Popularity - Appeal to the crowd as the authority. An example is someone believing something is to be true because people in general believe something to be true. Traditional Wisdom - Appealing to the past as authority. An example - it has always been believed that way so therefore it is. Provincialism - Failure to look beyond one's own group. Also called "not-invented-here" syndrome where a knowledge claim is not believed to be true because it is generated by another group other than one's own. Loyalty - Deciding the truth on the basis of loyalty. Believing something to be true because a group you are loyal to believes it to be true. Irrelevant Reason - Use of evidence entirely irrelevant to a conclusion. Ambiguity - Use of ambiguous terms to mislead (or which in fact mislead) Slippery Slope - Failure to see that the first step in possible series of steps does not inevitably lead to the rest Balkanization theory - The conclusion that the breakup of one company or nation will lead to others Domino theory - The conclusion that if A falls, then B, then C, and others will also fall. Ad Hominem Argument or Genetic Fallacy ( Argument to the Man) Guilt by Association - Attacking a person rather than the argument. Two Wrongs Make a Right or Common Practice - "if someone else does it, it is OK for me to do it" Tokenism - Do a small amount of what is required and then say that you did the whole thing Hasty Conclusion - Jumping to conclusions with not enough evidence Questionable Classification - Classifying something falsely Questionable Cause - Labeling something as the cause of something else with not enough evidence Questionable Analogy - Falsely comparing or really stretching the comparison of two things ******Fallacious Even If Valid Suppressed Evidence - Trying to prove a point while not providing all the evidence, when doing so would weaken the argument. Questionable Premise - Accepting premises in an argument that are both questionable and inadequately supported Unknown Fact - Stating supporting facts to an argument that are not possible to know Questionable evaluation - Using language to conjure up an image that is different from the facts Straw man - Misinterpreting or rephrasing an opponent's position so it becomes easier to attack False Dilemma - Trying to make an argument either-or when it is not Begging the Question - Endorsing without prove some form of the very question at issue Inconsistency - Arguing using contradictory premises False Charge of Fallacy - Charging a person of being inconsistent when all they did was change their mind >From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2589A.79CAD8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message

From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric

*** Fallacious Because of Being Invalid

Appeal to Authority - Improper appeal to authority. An example is = when a=20 Nobel laureate in chemistry writes an opinion about a subject she is not = an=20 expert such as political science and people then cite him as an = authority about=20 political science believing that being considered and expert in one area = means=20 they are knowledgeable about others. Popularity - Appeal to the crowd as = the=20 authority. An example is someone believing something is to be true = because=20 people in general believe something to be true.

Traditional Wisdom - Appealing to the past as authority. An example - = it has=20 always been believed that way so therefore it is.

Provincialism - Failure to look beyond one's own group. Also called=20 "not-invented-here" syndrome where a knowledge claim is not believed to = be true=20 because it is generated by another group other than one's own.

Loyalty - Deciding the truth on the basis of loyalty. Believing = something to=20 be true because a group you are loyal to believes it to be true.

Irrelevant Reason - Use of evidence entirely irrelevant to a = conclusion.

Ambiguity - Use of ambiguous terms to mislead (or which in fact = mislead)

Slippery Slope - Failure to see that the first step in possible = series of=20 steps does not inevitably lead to the rest

Balkanization theory - The conclusion that the breakup of one company = or=20 nation will lead to others

Domino theory - The conclusion that if A falls, then B, then C, and = others=20 will also fall.

Ad Hominem Argument or Genetic Fallacy ( Argument to the Man) Guilt = by=20 Association - Attacking a person rather than the argument.

Two Wrongs Make a Right or Common Practice - "if someone else does = it, it is=20 OK for me to do it"

Tokenism - Do a small amount of what is required and then say that = you did=20 the whole thing

Hasty Conclusion - Jumping to conclusions with not enough = evidence

Questionable Classification - Classifying something falsely

Questionable Cause - Labeling something as the cause of something = else with=20 not enough evidence

Questionable Analogy - Falsely comparing or really stretching the = comparison=20 of two things

******Fallacious Even If Valid

Suppressed Evidence - Trying to prove a point while not providing all = the=20 evidence, when doing so would weaken the argument.

Questionable Premise - Accepting premises in an argument that are = both=20 questionable and inadequately supported

Unknown Fact - Stating supporting facts to an argument that are not = possible=20 to know

Questionable evaluation - Using language to conjure up an image that = is=20 different from the facts

Straw man - Misinterpreting or rephrasing an opponent's position so = it=20 becomes easier to attack

False Dilemma - Trying to make an argument either-or when it is = not

Begging the Question - Endorsing without prove some form of the very = question=20 at issue

Inconsistency - Arguing using contradictory premises

False Charge of Fallacy - Charging a person of being inconsistent = when all=20 they did was change their mind

 

From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric

 

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C2589A.79CAD8E0-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 07:04:57 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4645756FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.chariot.net.au (mail.chariot.net.au [203.87.95.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C3F356FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steves-imac.local. (ppp-029.cust203-87-114.ghr.chariot.net.au [203.87.114.29]) by mail.chariot.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CC2A180605 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:52:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:53:01 +0930 Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric to Eric: Motives for accessing the World Wide Outline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) From: stephen white To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <3D7CFA9D.BC408C@sun.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 05:16 AM, Eric Armstrong wrote: >> What gets me interested is screenshots, and lots of them... > > Ditto. Too many programs with wonderful-sounding functionality come > with atrocious interfaces. Makes for bad odds when downloading. Like Genu... Sounds exactly like the same sort of stuff I'm interested in, then the screenshots came through... -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 07:31:22 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 50B1C56FF4; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13704.mail.yahoo.com (web13704.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.137]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0C4B656FF2 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:31:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020910144925.23075.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [218.145.63.23] by web13704.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:49:25 PDT Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:49:25 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric to Eric: Motives for accessing the World Wide Outline To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1899378906-1031669365=:18494" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1899378906-1031669365=:18494 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Stephen, I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of ADM, the lead company in the world wide outline project. I'm not sure whether I understand your comment below. Do you mean that you downloaded the world wide outline client and didn't like it, or are you simply requesting to see screen shots before download (could probably be arranged). Final thought: Download and installation requires only 2 or 3 minutes total time, as the client is powerful but ocupies less than 2 meg. Cordially, Eric stephen white wrote:On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 05:16 AM, Eric Armstrong wrote: >> What gets me interested is screenshots, and lots of them... > > Ditto. Too many programs with wonderful-sounding functionality come > with atrocious interfaces. Makes for bad odds when downloading. Like Genu... Sounds exactly like the same sort of stuff I'm interested in, then the screenshots came through... -- spwhite@chariot.net.au Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost --0-1899378906-1031669365=:18494 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi Stephen,

I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of ADM, the lead company in the world wide outline project.  I'm not sure whether I understand your comment below.  Do you mean that you downloaded the world wide outline client and didn't like it, or are you simply requesting to see screen shots before download (could probably be arranged). 

Final thought: Download and installation requires only 2 or 3 minutes total time, as the client is powerful but ocupies less than 2 meg. 

Cordially, Eric

 stephen white wrote:

On Tuesday, September 10, 2002, at 05:16 AM, Eric Armstrong wrote:
>> What gets me interested is screenshots, and lots of them...
>
> Ditto. Too many programs with wonderful-sounding functionality come
> with atrocious interfaces. Makes for bad odds when downloading.
Like Genu... Sounds exactly like the same sort of stuff I'm interested
in, then the screenshots came through...

--
spwhite@chariot.net.au


Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Yahoo! - We Remember
9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost --0-1899378906-1031669365=:18494-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 08:27:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 628E656FF4; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mailone.kub.nl (mailone.kub.nl [137.56.0.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5DA9B56FF2 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 08:27:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prefix1 (prefix1.kub.nl [137.56.0.78]) by mailone.kub.nl (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8AFj4sc022877 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:45:05 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 17:45:04 +0200 (MET DST) From: Aldo de Moor X-X-Sender: ademoor@prefix1 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet In-Reply-To: <004501c25839$81627a10$aa01010a@collaboratory> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.4 required=5.0 X-Spam-Level: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Dear all, I'm happy to say that John and I managed to find some common ground 'behind the scenes'. Perhaps an example for our world leaders? :-) Let me briefly explain how I see the topic of this thread fit in with the scope of this list. I think the US joining vs. withdrawing from the international scene discussion-wise is an excellent case of open vs. closed systems, improving/evolving vs. destroying the system, rational vs. power-based discourse, etc. We might learn something here for the kind of organic, healthy socio-technical systems development that Doug proposes. Regards, Aldo ========================================================================== ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor Dr. Aldo de Moor Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands ========================================================================== From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 10:27:21 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D890C56FF7; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:27:20 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail1.atl.registeredsite.com (mail1.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.75]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3CE1F56FF4; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kmcluster.com (mail.kmcluster.com [64.226.164.169]) by mail1.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.5/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g8AHjI2o029788; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:45:18 -0400 Received: from collaboratory [64.226.164.169] by mail.kmcluster.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id AC2C15C60118; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:30:20 -0400 From: "John Maloney" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] The Future of R&D Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:30:12 -0700 Organization: KM Cluster Message-ID: <000201c258f0$1977eb80$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Greetings! This message is the final update for The San Francisco Bay Area and Silicon Valley Knowledge Management (KM) Cluster Fall 2002 event, "The Future of R&D." http://www.kmcluster.com/ This KM ClusterR Event -- "The Future of R&D" -- will be Friday, September 20, 2002 in San Francisco, California USA, from 8am-5pm. ----------------------------------------------------------- New Agenda Highlights The Fall 2002 KM Cluster agenda is complete. We are thrilled to be able to sponsor some of the world's top thought leaders, R&D researchers and practitioners as follows: Dr. Jamie Dinkelacker is the manager of the Global Collaboration Environments Group at Hewlett-Packard Laboratories in Palo Alto, California. His interests focus on communication research and technology, management methods and software services. His main activities are concentrated on distributed teams, internet-based collaboration technologies and advanced approaches for research project management. Dr. Ted M. Kahn is the co-founder and CEO of DesignWorlds for Learning, Inc. Ted is known internationally as a pioneer and innovator in action-research projects involving technology and learning. His special areas of expertise are in the uses of the Internet and media for supporting distributed learning and knowledge design communities. Chuck Sieloff, Ph.D. is an associate researcher at the Institute for the Future in Menlo Park and a 33-year technology executive and KM veteran of Hewlett-Packard Company. Ruth Given, Ph.D., is the Director of Health Care Research for Deloitte Consulting and Deloitte & Touche. For more on the agenda and speaker biographies, please visit the event web. http://www.kmcluster.com/Fall_2002_Agenda.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Logistics and Registration "The Future of R&D" will be Friday, September 20, 2002 in San Francisco, California USA, from 8am-5pm. The venue is the beautiful Fort Mason Executive Conference Center: Building A, Fort Mason Center San Francisco, CA 94123-1382 Phone: (415) 441-3400 Fax: (415) 441-3405 Directions: http://www.fortmason.org/directions/index.html Email: contact@fortmason.org Secure, online pre-registration is required. Event tuition covers materials, refreshments, meals, equipment and related expenses. The number of delegates is kept small to maximize interaction among speakers and participants. The Fall 2002 KM Cluster will reach capacity quickly. For your secure, online registration, please visit: https://www.kmcluster.com/secureorderform.htm See you at The Future of R&D! Most cordially, John John Maloney www.kmcluster.com Knowledge Management Cluster From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 10:31:16 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E1D6956FF7; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:31:15 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.chariot.net.au (mail.chariot.net.au [203.87.95.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 136F956FF5 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steves-imac.local. (ppp-029.cust203-87-114.ghr.chariot.net.au [203.87.114.29]) by mail.chariot.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEABB18011F for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 03:19:17 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 03:19:21 +0930 Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric to Eric: Motives for accessing the World Wide Outline Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) From: stephen white To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <20020910144925.23075.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 12:19 AM, ADM Staff wrote: > Final thought: Download and installation requires only 2 or 3 minutes=20= > total time, as the client is powerful but ocupies less than 2 meg.=A0 You know that, but we don't know that until afterwards... So=20 screenshots are a standard way for us to see what's involved so we can=20= then decide to download it then be pleasantly surprised that=20 installation was painless. Everybody wants screenshots so this would be something to put on the=20 web page, not just for us... -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 12:14:14 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C9C3E56FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.179]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A66C056FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:14:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-211.charmeleon.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.79.211] helo=vaio) by imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17oqk5-0008Vj-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:32:09 +0100 Message-ID: <003601c25900$67e30b00$d34f87d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <004501c25839$81627a10$aa01010a@collaboratory> Subject: Uncertain of understanding WAS: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:28:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > ... Of course all editorial content > is welcome as long it carries some merit and is not so incendiary. Ditto email. But removing the sting from the rhetoric leaves a point that cannot be ignored. Let's look at the system of beliefs here. [N.B. The following does not necessarily represent my views. I am just trying to understand the fuss made earlier by reasoning from the evidence.] If you are a patriot of the US then what JTM says appears to hold true. The _economic_ (and hence conceivably the political) best interests of the US appear to be served by the strategy he outlines. With the caveat that the US would not adopt that strategy if it didn't not have such vast reserves: It can afford to wait out anyone else's complaints for the time being. Similarly, it can probably afford not to be very eco-friendly right now too. Ravage first, buy later, would _appear_ to be the strategy. The point being, that if the US considers that it can afford to be blasé about what it considers to be *its local* environment, and that capitalist managerial economics is the way to go, then most other slights thrown at the US do look like having their seeds in jealousy. All that remains are debates about the distribution of wealth: in effect discussion of whether modern forms of sanctioned private ownership need reforming. And as far as I'm aware the only barrier to a country dictating what forms of ownership are acceptable lie in the prospects for foreign investment given particular forms. In a capitalist system what brings money into a country is the prospect of an increased profit rate in some sector. Profit can be exported (under global finance terms) by the investor (assuming the relevant forms of private ownership), but there's nothing to stop the investor creating a feedback loop short-term by reinvestment until competition causes the profit-rate to drop again. By that time though, a significant asset should have been established. What is missing from this picture? --Few investors have found the seeds of an increased profit rate in most of Africa. Much of Africa remains mired in feudal politics and internecine strife. Most of the aid that was supposed to rescue these countries went astray. In short, they lack the basic institutional structures required for progress. --Free trade policies are punishing weak developing economies. --Maybe the biosphere is dying after all. What does a polluting industrial/commercial asset represent in respect of this? These give rise to another key question: How do you manage the tendency for human beings to be greedy? The answer would _appear_ to be globally ratified, democratically supported legislation to that effect. What are the chances of that happening before the last faeces hit the last fan? With existing patterns of thought: slight. Where does a patriot fit into that game? That one I'll leave for JTM to think about. Maybe John has ideas we haven't heard yet. Certainly he's made a play that is rarely understood. (Maybe that's why he seems to #CAPSLOCK# shout and rave so much.) On the rack of possibilities hang: Marx reckoned that the self-emancipation of the workers from 'capitalistic exploitation' was the key. Some might think that the new gene-therapy eugenics hold promise. Perhaps we all just need to smoke more dope and chill out, dude. Maybe we need a different approach to the simple act of exchange. Maybe advances in financial thinking, dissolution of borders, new forms of energy and transport/travel,... ... Frequently in Shakespearian tragedies, it is the raving lunatic that voices the truth. Maybe we are in a fix that suggests that we can't write someone off just because they SHOUT a bit rudely. Maybe shutting off our ears and ceasing to think won't get us anywhere. Thank you and good night, -- Peter From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 12:18:35 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 11C7856FF8; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 90CC856FF5 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:18:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03590 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:36:34 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8AJaXi25974 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7E49EE.BC6E2C2C@sun.com> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:37:18 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fallacious Reasoning References: <000101c258d5$2629b0e0$180ec53f@collaboratory> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Good post. This list belongs in a knowledge base, somewhere.... John Maloney wrote: > From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric > > *** Fallacious Because of Being Invalid > > Appeal to Authority - Improper appeal to authority. An example is when > a Nobel laureate in chemistry writes an opinion about a subject she is > not an expert such as political science and people then cite him as an > authority about political science believing that being considered and > expert in one area means they are knowledgeable about others. > Popularity - Appeal to the crowd as the authority. An example is > someone believing something is to be true because people in general > believe something to be true. > > Traditional Wisdom - Appealing to the past as authority. An example - > it has always been believed that way so therefore it is. > > Provincialism - Failure to look beyond one's own group. Also called > "not-invented-here" syndrome where a knowledge claim is not believed > to be true because it is generated by another group other than one's > own. > > Loyalty - Deciding the truth on the basis of loyalty. Believing > something to be true because a group you are loyal to believes it to > be true. > > Irrelevant Reason - Use of evidence entirely irrelevant to a > conclusion. > > Ambiguity - Use of ambiguous terms to mislead (or which in fact > mislead) > > Slippery Slope - Failure to see that the first step in possible series > of steps does not inevitably lead to the rest > > Balkanization theory - The conclusion that the breakup of one company > or nation will lead to others > > Domino theory - The conclusion that if A falls, then B, then C, and > others will also fall. > > Ad Hominem Argument or Genetic Fallacy ( Argument to the Man) Guilt by > Association - Attacking a person rather than the argument. > > Two Wrongs Make a Right or Common Practice - "if someone else does it, > it is OK for me to do it" > > Tokenism - Do a small amount of what is required and then say that you > did the whole thing > > Hasty Conclusion - Jumping to conclusions with not enough evidence > > Questionable Classification - Classifying something falsely > > Questionable Cause - Labeling something as the cause of something else > with not enough evidence > > Questionable Analogy - Falsely comparing or really stretching the > comparison of two things > > ******Fallacious Even If Valid > > Suppressed Evidence - Trying to prove a point while not providing all > the evidence, when doing so would weaken the argument. > > Questionable Premise - Accepting premises in an argument that are both > questionable and inadequately supported > > Unknown Fact - Stating supporting facts to an argument that are not > possible to know > > Questionable evaluation - Using language to conjure up an image that > is different from the facts > > Straw man - Misinterpreting or rephrasing an opponent's position so it > becomes easier to attack > > False Dilemma - Trying to make an argument either-or when it is not > > Begging the Question - Endorsing without prove some form of the very > question at issue > > Inconsistency - Arguing using contradictory premises > > False Charge of Fallacy - Charging a person of being inconsistent when > all they did was change their mind > > > > From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 12:36:20 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0821C56FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 892F056FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13961 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8AJsIi29745 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7E4E17.1CAFF64C@sun.com> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:55:03 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Instant Ontologies: The Strength of Weak Links References: <3D7D3615.910143D9@sun.com> <3D7D4E9D.8E468135@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thanks, Henry. The next move is a research project: * Come up to speed on the state of the art in network theory. while at the same time beginning construction. * Use a google-style web crawler, since it is already doing enough parsing to identify links. * Then modify the parser to find lists that match the pattern, and put together a list of words to ignore in the headings. * Finally, put a human in the loop. Human reviews results and says "good" or "no good", modifying the pattern in the process. (Interestingly, a human could by such votes program a neural-net machine which would become increasingly good at recognizing useful patterns -- although we would never have a clue as to what it was doing.) Whether or not anything useful would come of it is hard to say. Whether it would duplicate Cyc, complement Cyc, use Cyc to help construct it's ontology, or go way beyond Cyc, is another matter that would have to be determined by experience. Regardless of its success or failure, it would definitely make an interesting paper. Henry K van Eyken wrote: > This is the kind of thinking that could lead to an important tool in the > construction of Doug's idea of a continually updated encyclopedia or > handbook. > > What is the next move? > > Henry > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > A few ideas rubbed together the other day, and it occurred > > to me that a web crawler capable of parsing HTML pages to > > find links already has enough intelligence to begin constructing > > a first-cut ontology. > > > > Note: > > The mechanism described here may be something like the idea > > behind the Teoma search engine (http://www.teoma.com), although > > they may well have other mechanisms, in addition to this one. > > > > The first thought was that "weak links" predict similarity much > > better than "strong links". ("Strong links" describes clustered > > material -- material that is in close proximity, with many > > individual links between them, as well as links to other pages, > > all of which link to each other. > > > > In this context, it makes sense to think of a directory hierarchy as > > "linked". So it's clear that a collection of pages at a company or a > > college have something in common, but generally such a collection > > of pages embodies *many* ontological concepts. So strongly > > linked pages are not that good for identifying concepts. > > > > But if two separate clusters have a single connection > > between them -- a weak link -- then that link implies *some* kind > > of similarity. That recognition then entails two further problems: > > a. Giving a name to the concept that identifies the similarity. > > b. Separating reference-type links (and other "non-similar") links > > from links that indicate similarity ("other things of this kind") > > > > For example, on a page describing exercises, there could be > > references to anatomy descriptions, and links to equipment > > manufacturers, as well as links to similar exercises. Each would > > be a weak link, but any similarities would be non-obvious. > > > > The problem is to identify which links indicate "similarity". But > > it occurs to me that HTML formatting may well provide enough > > clues to make some good guesses. > > > > Basically, a "weak link" page that gives a list of links is more likely > > than not to be identifying an ontological concept. > > > > The format for such concept references would be: > > > > 1. A heading with one or two major words. For example: > > --Equipment > > --Exercise Equipment > > --Exercises > > --Authors of Note > > --Signs of the Times > > > > 2. A short paragraph of introductory text. > > > > 3. List items containing short paragraphs, each with one link > > > > Of course, there are some lists that would not be useful. For > > example, JavaWorld articles always end with a "Resources" > > section. The concept is obviously not "resources", but is > > rather the subject matter covered in the article. > > > > Still, it would be possible to filter out the limited number of > > such headings ("for more information", "further reading", > > and the like, the same way that small words like "of" and > > "the" would be filtered out. What's left, in the context of > > the web, would be a collection of named ontological > > concepts that could be reviewed and edited. > > > > Of course, at this point the "ontology" would look like a > > simple list of concepts, with no ordering or structuring. > > And duplicate concepts with different names would have > > to be linked, somehow. > > > > But it could be a start. Further examination of structural > > relationhips might well lead to connections within the > > ontology. For example, the concept of "bicycles" is > > identified, and a "parts list" on several pages contains > > a "derailleur" entry, then perhaps it would be possible to > > identfiy the "derailleur is part of a bicycle" relationship. > > > > Similarly, a book that showed up in the "resources" section > > of a few pages could lead to "book x is a resource for > > bicycles". > > > > I dunno. It's an interesting possibility -- that with a modicum > > of semantic knowledge, it might be possible to construct a > > very sizable ontology from the contents of the web. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 12:38:20 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 94B3E56FF8; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 25AE856FF5 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA15097 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8AJuIi00226 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7E4E8F.E640A140@sun.com> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:57:03 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Instant Ontologies: The Strength of Weak Links References: <3D7D3615.910143D9@sun.com> <3D7D4E9D.8E468135@sympatico.ca> <3D7E4E17.1CAFF64C@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric Armstrong wrote: > Thanks, Henry. > > The next move is a research project: > * Come up to speed on the state of the art in network theory. > while at the same time beginning construction. > * Use a google-style web crawler, since it is already doing > enough parsing to identify links. > * Then modify the parser to find lists that match the pattern, > and put together a list of words to ignore in the headings. > * Finally, put a human in the loop. Human reviews results and > says "good" or "no good", modifying the pattern in the process. > (Interestingly, a human could by such votes program a neural-net > machine which would become increasingly good at recognizing > useful patterns -- although we would never have a clue as to > what it was doing.) > > Whether or not anything useful would come of it is hard to say. > Whether it would duplicate Cyc, complement Cyc, use Cyc to > help construct it's ontology, or go way beyond Cyc, is another > matter that would have to be determined by experience. > > Regardless of its success or failure, it would definitely make an > interesting paper. Note: The foregoing unfortunately cannot be construed as a commitment to actually pursue this line of research. My employer occupies my half my time. My book and what has turned into 8 patentable ideas for exercise equipment are occupying the other half. Between halves, I sleep. > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > This is the kind of thinking that could lead to an important tool in the > > construction of Doug's idea of a continually updated encyclopedia or > > handbook. > > > > What is the next move? > > > > Henry > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > A few ideas rubbed together the other day, and it occurred > > > to me that a web crawler capable of parsing HTML pages to > > > find links already has enough intelligence to begin constructing > > > a first-cut ontology. > > > > > > Note: > > > The mechanism described here may be something like the idea > > > behind the Teoma search engine (http://www.teoma.com), although > > > they may well have other mechanisms, in addition to this one. > > > > > > The first thought was that "weak links" predict similarity much > > > better than "strong links". ("Strong links" describes clustered > > > material -- material that is in close proximity, with many > > > individual links between them, as well as links to other pages, > > > all of which link to each other. > > > > > > In this context, it makes sense to think of a directory hierarchy as > > > "linked". So it's clear that a collection of pages at a company or a > > > college have something in common, but generally such a collection > > > of pages embodies *many* ontological concepts. So strongly > > > linked pages are not that good for identifying concepts. > > > > > > But if two separate clusters have a single connection > > > between them -- a weak link -- then that link implies *some* kind > > > of similarity. That recognition then entails two further problems: > > > a. Giving a name to the concept that identifies the similarity. > > > b. Separating reference-type links (and other "non-similar") links > > > from links that indicate similarity ("other things of this kind") > > > > > > For example, on a page describing exercises, there could be > > > references to anatomy descriptions, and links to equipment > > > manufacturers, as well as links to similar exercises. Each would > > > be a weak link, but any similarities would be non-obvious. > > > > > > The problem is to identify which links indicate "similarity". But > > > it occurs to me that HTML formatting may well provide enough > > > clues to make some good guesses. > > > > > > Basically, a "weak link" page that gives a list of links is more likely > > > than not to be identifying an ontological concept. > > > > > > The format for such concept references would be: > > > > > > 1. A heading with one or two major words. For example: > > > --Equipment > > > --Exercise Equipment > > > --Exercises > > > --Authors of Note > > > --Signs of the Times > > > > > > 2. A short paragraph of introductory text. > > > > > > 3. List items containing short paragraphs, each with one link > > > > > > Of course, there are some lists that would not be useful. For > > > example, JavaWorld articles always end with a "Resources" > > > section. The concept is obviously not "resources", but is > > > rather the subject matter covered in the article. > > > > > > Still, it would be possible to filter out the limited number of > > > such headings ("for more information", "further reading", > > > and the like, the same way that small words like "of" and > > > "the" would be filtered out. What's left, in the context of > > > the web, would be a collection of named ontological > > > concepts that could be reviewed and edited. > > > > > > Of course, at this point the "ontology" would look like a > > > simple list of concepts, with no ordering or structuring. > > > And duplicate concepts with different names would have > > > to be linked, somehow. > > > > > > But it could be a start. Further examination of structural > > > relationhips might well lead to connections within the > > > ontology. For example, the concept of "bicycles" is > > > identified, and a "parts list" on several pages contains > > > a "derailleur" entry, then perhaps it would be possible to > > > identfiy the "derailleur is part of a bicycle" relationship. > > > > > > Similarly, a book that showed up in the "resources" section > > > of a few pages could lead to "book x is a resource for > > > bicycles". > > > > > > I dunno. It's an interesting possibility -- that with a modicum > > > of semantic knowledge, it might be possible to construct a > > > very sizable ontology from the contents of the web. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 12:57:42 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 691DE56FF8; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F03F056FF7 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 12:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27082 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8AKFdi04835 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7E5318.FC1843BB@sun.com> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:16:24 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric to Eric: Motives for accessing the World Wide Outline References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org stephen white wrote: > On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 12:19 AM, ADM Staff wrote: > > Final thought: Download and installation requires only 2 or 3 minutes > > total time, as the client is powerful but ocupies less than 2 meg. > > You know that, but we don't know that until afterwards... So > screenshots are a standard way for us to see what's involved so we can > then decide to download it then be pleasantly surprised that > installation was painless. > > Everybody wants screenshots so this would be something to put on the > web page, not just for us... Yes. As Stephen said, the screeenshots are for evaluating the desirability of doing a download. My inbox is crowed with programs that will only take a few minutes to download -- and 20 minutes to install, investigate, and remove... From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 13:00:18 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 184D356FF9; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A380256FF8 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06659 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8AKIEi05367 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D7E53B3.F1AD94B5@sun.com> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 13:18:59 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric to Eric: Motives for accessing the World Wide Outline References: <20020910144925.23075.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org ADM Staff wrote: > I'm Eric Sommer, CEO of ADM, the lead company in the world wide > outline project... BTW: Hello, and nice to know you. I have a fond place in my heart for people who thing in terms of outlining. These days, it's a lot easier sell (at least the term "granularity" has wider recognition) but it's still an educational sell. Hopefully the feedback you're getting here will help you fine tune your effort. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 14:11:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0764D56FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 969F656FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020910212955.NDYY16673.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@sony> for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:29:55 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020910142533.02029100@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:26:56 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: elohimjl > > EU leads pledge to set goals for renewable energy > >Paul Brown and John Vidal in Johannesburg > >Earth summit's weak words spark 30-nation revolt >Dismay at the weakness of the Earth summit's outcome spilled into the >final plenary session in Johannesburg last week when European Union >delegates led a protest against the failure to agree global targets for >increasing renewable energy production. >The leaders of more than 30 government delegations promised to go further >than the summit declaration that renewable energy's share of global energy >production should rise. They agreed to conduct regular reviews of progress >towards ambitious targets at the national, regional and "hopefully at a >global level". > >"Such targets are important tools to guide investment and develop the >market for renewable energy technologies," their statement said. Support >came from all 15 EU states, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Poland, Hungary, >Czech Republic, Romania, Slovakia, Brazil, Argentina, Uganda, Mexico, and >other Latin American, Caribbean and Pacific states. > >America's isolation on countering climate change was further underlined >last week when its only remaining ally, Australia, shifted ground. The >prime minister, John Howard, who had insisted that Australia would not >ratify the Kyoto protocol to cut greenhouse gas emissions, said he would >reconsider its position. >Another last-minute change was the restoration of a clause on human rights >whose original wording was resisted by the US, the Vatican and Islamic >states. At their insistence the clause omitted the right of women to >contraception and abortion, and hailed the superiority of local cultural >and religious values. The US stepped back when it was pointed out that the >clause would give tacit approval to such widely condemned local traditions >as genital mutilation. > >An attempt by the US to dilute provisions on corporate accountability and >regulation was rejected, after objections by Ethiopia and Norway. > >The US secretary of state, Colin Powell, was jeered and slow handclapped >during his speech. A wave of anti-American feeling was unleashed when he >blamed the land reforms of Zimbabwe's president, Robert Mugabe, for >pushing millions of people "to the brink of starvation". > >After long wrangling, agreement was finally reached on the political text >for the summit, originally written by the conference chairman, the South >African president Thabo Mbeki, which was also tough in the area of >corporate accountability. This was seen as a victory for environmental >groups in their campaign to curb the power of multinationals. But these >groups remained angry that so few targets and timetables for action >reached the final text. NGOs said that, although the summit's action plan >agreed to move towards phasing out export subsidies, the world's >governments had failed to grasp the urgency of opening up agricultural >markets to developing countries. >The Guardian Weekly 12-9-2002, page 5 >-- >elohimjl --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 14:27:36 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BA04156FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 48F5F56FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020910214538.NXEQ16673.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@sony> for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 21:45:38 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020910143926.01fa2520@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:42:38 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Mozilla Rising Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/09/10/browser_wars/index.html "Netscape won't dislodge Internet Explorer from its hegemony over browser space. But its open-source sibling is aiming at even bigger game: Windows." I have this hunch that, someday, OpenOffice and Mozilla will come together in a way that will make us all very happy campers. I've figured out how to take apart an OpenOffice document. It's actually a zip file, not a flat document file. Inside, there are four XML files, one of which is called content.xml. With a simple script file, you can pop that out, modify it as you wish, then pop it back in. My experiment is aimed at turning OpenOffice into one of the user interfaces in the NexistWiki experiment. Now, when there is seamless integration between OpenOffice and Mozilla, it will be good. Cheers Jack --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 14:41:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A074C56FF7; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F66456FF5 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:41:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H28001HGT3IYG@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:59:35 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet In-reply-to: To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <000001c25915$59fec7d0$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Aldo, You comments are really the underlying structure to the points I was making. Mankind -always- overbuilds structures that eventually and very painfully get crushed under their own weight -- taking along millions with them. >From bloated operating systems to monster legacy applications, a defective human behavior is to continue building and building and building with the identical techniques and methods. Lew Platt, the former CEO of HP knew this well. He used the somewhat disturbing metaphor, "Sometimes you need to kill you children." The concept is central to innovation, success and above all, thriving ecosystems. Look, every EMPIRE in human history has been a violent failure. Overreaching political and economic structures ALWAYS fail and leave a wake of death and destruction. From Ottoman to the USSR from Rome to London, from Berlin to Tokyo, economic integration leads to political integration leads to war and death. It is that simple. The cause has as much to do with human brain physiology and it does with defects in personality and character. The Framers knew this extremely dangerous, fatal phenomenon too, hence the 10th Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." That's point about meta-government like the UN, the World Court and other flawed instruments of globalization. They flat-out do not work and are extremely dangerous too. If you examine human history, and the current environment, you must draw the same conclusions. The world is on the wrong path of economic integration and globalism -- and it is very scary. In the end, it will fail, probably very violently, as all empires do. Sept 11 could be viewed as a taste of what's in store. Ironic that US media never examines the root -causes- of the attack. Not to mention well over 60% of Canadians and Europeans feel the West bears direct responsibility through its overreaching foreign and economic policies, support of corrupt globalization adventures and acquiescence on supra-government. The foolish media are more concerned with OBL's celebrity status. How about the economic and political disenfranchisement of hundreds of millions of people by a handful of unelected elites on 1st Ave., Wall St. and GVA? The call today is to retire these flaw supra-governments in favor of far more organic, direct and community oriented methods. The same goes for many of the principles of unrev including a far greater commitment to standards, for example. Regards, -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Aldo de Moor Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:45 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Dear all, I'm happy to say that John and I managed to find some common ground 'behind the scenes'. Perhaps an example for our world leaders? :-) Let me briefly explain how I see the topic of this thread fit in with the scope of this list. I think the US joining vs. withdrawing from the international scene discussion-wise is an excellent case of open vs. closed systems, improving/evolving vs. destroying the system, rational vs. power-based discourse, etc. We might learn something here for the kind of organic, healthy socio-technical systems development that Doug proposes. Regards, Aldo ======================================================================== == ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor Dr. Aldo de Moor Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands ======================================================================== == From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 14:50:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 782A356FF7; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail9.wlv.netzero.net (mail9.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.66]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B436056FF5 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 13697 invoked from network); 10 Sep 2002 22:06:39 -0000 Received: from dsc01.oav-ca-6.rasserver.net (HELO netzero.net) (207.94.107.211) by mail9.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 10 Sep 2002 22:06:39 -0000 Message-ID: <3D7E6D48.E472134C@netzero.net> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:08:08 -0700 From: "John J. Deneen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-{C-UDP; EBM-SONY1} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] WANDER Completed: 1) a Portable Linux Data-Collection System & 2) Impacts on CITRIS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Several recent CITRIS meetings, have highlighted the growing interest in the biological, ecological, environmental and other research communities in the development and deployment of large distributed systems for information collection, aggregation, analysis, simulation, predictive modeling and realtime analysis within their respective disciplines. Likewise, the 911-tragedy caused concern and raised interest in the need for similar systems in the context of homeland security. It seems apparent that a structured discussion of the needs for these systems could create opportunities for synergistic efficiencies between the various user communities. To date, however, no such discussions have been held among these differing user communities, nor among these communities and the groups providing and developing technologies to support their needs. So relative to the Earth summit's outcome, may be its time to start a discussion between the Bootstrap Alliance and CITRIS partners, etc., about recent results from BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE BY WIRELESS (NSF) PROJECTS may help facilitate today's schoolchildren and 'citizen scientists' to begin to 'collect and communicate field data' ? Cheers, - John 1) THIS NSF PROJECT BY STEVE ROBERTS. THE WRITE UP BELOW, FIRST PRINTED IN THE EMBEDDED LINUX JOURNAL, MAY-JUNE, 2002 ISSUE IS AN EXCELLENT SUMMARY OF HOW IT WAS ASSEMBLED AND CONFIGURED. --Dave Hughes PI < http://wireless.oldcolo.com/biology/ProgressReports2002/Progress%20Reports2002/41-progressreportWanderCompleted.htm > About the authors: Steven K. Roberts is perhaps best known as the guy who wandered 17,000 miles around the US on a computer-laden recumbent bicycle during the 1980s. Since then, he has been taking entirely too long to build the bike's successor, a networked amphibian pedal/solar/sail micro-trimaran known as the Microship. Ned Konz was writing robotics code in Smalltalk for semiconductor factory tools but then escaped on his recumbent bicycle. He entertains himself by designing microcontroller systems and programming in Squeak Smalltalk, Perl and Ruby, and was the lead WANDER software designer. He is also available for consulting work. 2) May, 30, 2002 - "Prototype Testing and Evaluation of Wireless Instrumentation for Ecological Research at Remote Field Locations by Wireless" (Special Report on NSF ANI-9909218 by David R Hughes PI) < http://wireless.oldcolo.com/biology/ProgressReports2002/Progress%20Reports2002/43-Special%20Report%20May2002.htm > Scroll 2/3 down to: IV - Impacts on Society and Education "One, very recent, development has been to apply the findings of this study, in particular the potential for miniaturization and large scale deployment of wirelessly connected sensors to the threat of biological and chemical attack. The results of this study has been fed into the Multi-Sectored Crises Management Consortium which is under the umbrella of NCSA, and has been provided to other government agencies in early 2002. Collaboration with such agencies, and Russian scientists, as well as Industry, has occurred. The same wireless devices being designed for scientific data collection can be used for these national security purposes. Education in Field Science at every academic level has been enhanced by the use of the wireless connectivity, interconnected to the Internet, using techniques developed and demonstrated through this project." ... "Because of the low cost, while high bandwidth, internet-connectable wireless technology this project has pioneered along with appropriate interface and sensors links, schools, or even independent 'citizen scientists' can collect, and communicate data from their own research projects, fulfilling a prediction Dr. Larry Smarr < http://www.jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/~lsmarr/vita/biography.html> made when he saw results of this wireless project at a 2001 NEON conference. He stated that schoolchildren and 'citizen scientists' could begin to 'collect and communicate field data' far beyond the ability of the limited number of doctoral level researchers or graduate students can presently. Likewise they can benefit in their own studies by having access to data collected elsewhere. Comparative, simultaneous, real time data from many places can be analyses from any connection to the Internet. " ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 15:08:00 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6822156FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:08:00 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mclean.mail.mindspring.net (mclean.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.57]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B05BD56FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-11fadi2.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.245.54.66] helo=D9KP0711) by mclean.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17otSH-000299-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:25:57 -0400 From: "Mei Lin Fung" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 07:48:53 -0700 Organization: MLF Associates Inc. Message-ID: <000a01c258d9$2f21b180$2002a8c0@D9KP0711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-to: <000001c25915$59fec7d0$180ec53f@collaboratory> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I am pleased to belong to a community that is capable of demonstrating diversity in dialogue. Talking about trumpets...... And " more organic, direct and community oriented methods " quoting from JTM's most recent post. How about the Unrev list consider spontaneously participating in an organic direct, community event? There are few pieces of classical music more sublime than the Mozart Requiem Mass, it's way up there on my all time top 10 list. There is a global chain of performances underway on 9/11/02 in a musical acknowledgement that might particularly suit those who are beyond words. For example, here at Stanford, there will be a community performance starting 8:46 am at the Stanford Memorial Church. I'm planning to be there, and have encouraged Doug to attend. Let's use the WWW and the hyperlinking originally envisaged by Doug in the 60's to go from text to tunes, from memories to music, from images to imagination. Here's how: If you're so inclined, attend. That's it. . To find the performance near you, look up your city and Mozart Requiem Mass in a search engine. In the spirit of an Unrev Moment Musicale Mei Lin -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of John Maloney Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 3:00 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Aldo, You comments are really the underlying structure to the points I was making. Mankind -always- overbuilds structures that eventually and very painfully get crushed under their own weight -- taking along millions with them. >From bloated operating systems to monster legacy applications, a defective human behavior is to continue building and building and building with the identical techniques and methods. Lew Platt, the former CEO of HP knew this well. He used the somewhat disturbing metaphor, "Sometimes you need to kill you children." The concept is central to innovation, success and above all, thriving ecosystems. Look, every EMPIRE in human history has been a violent failure. Overreaching political and economic structures ALWAYS fail and leave a wake of death and destruction. From Ottoman to the USSR from Rome to London, from Berlin to Tokyo, economic integration leads to political integration leads to war and death. It is that simple. The cause has as much to do with human brain physiology and it does with defects in personality and character. The Framers knew this extremely dangerous, fatal phenomenon too, hence the 10th Amendment -- "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." That's point about meta-government like the UN, the World Court and other flawed instruments of globalization. They flat-out do not work and are extremely dangerous too. If you examine human history, and the current environment, you must draw the same conclusions. The world is on the wrong path of economic integration and globalism -- and it is very scary. In the end, it will fail, probably very violently, as all empires do. Sept 11 could be viewed as a taste of what's in store. Ironic that US media never examines the root -causes- of the attack. Not to mention well over 60% of Canadians and Europeans feel the West bears direct responsibility through its overreaching foreign and economic policies, support of corrupt globalization adventures and acquiescence on supra-government. The foolish media are more concerned with OBL's celebrity status. How about the economic and political disenfranchisement of hundreds of millions of people by a handful of unelected elites on 1st Ave., Wall St. and GVA? The call today is to retire these flaw supra-governments in favor of far more organic, direct and community oriented methods. The same goes for many of the principles of unrev including a far greater commitment to standards, for example. Regards, -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Aldo de Moor Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 8:45 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Dear all, I'm happy to say that John and I managed to find some common ground 'behind the scenes'. Perhaps an example for our world leaders? :-) Let me briefly explain how I see the topic of this thread fit in with the scope of this list. I think the US joining vs. withdrawing from the international scene discussion-wise is an excellent case of open vs. closed systems, improving/evolving vs. destroying the system, rational vs. power-based discourse, etc. We might learn something here for the kind of organic, healthy socio-technical systems development that Doug proposes. Regards, Aldo ======================================================================== == ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor Dr. Aldo de Moor Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands ======================================================================== == From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 15:23:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1211A56FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:23:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 88F9656FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:23:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H2800ILYV1JO9@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:41:36 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) In-reply-to: <4.2.2.20020910142533.02029100@thinkalong.com> To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <000001c2591b$384d8a30$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Jack, Here is a good example of how your beloved EU and the insane WTO sell America down the river. These unelected 'three-judge panels' are making fools out of all Americans. It is sickening. Of course, the US has no veto power and cannot retaliate. Disgraceful. What do you think will be the result of this hegemony? Harmony in sustainable development? Nope. It will generate more rancor and distance. Do you reasonably think the US would step into another big mess like the Kyoto Protocol? 'Fraid not. Once bitten, twice shy. The Earth Summit was a farce. Do you 'get it' yet? The doctrine of the WTO is drenched in 19th Century free-trade beliefs that rendered England, the cradle of the industrial revolution, into a third-rate manufacturer. The 13 colonies resisted all forms of free trade and economic integration. That resulted in creation of the greatest economic power on earth. Every president on Mt. Rushmore was severely ridiculed by phony intellectuals and smarmy globalists for being 'protectionist.' In fact, all they were doing was putting America First. Do you have a problem with that? Do you know who has the fastest growing economy in today's world? That's right, the communists in China. Oh, and by they way, they are by far the most protectionist. How can this be made more clear? Sadly, there will probably be more, not less, of this dangerous economic integration and globalization. It is creating a dangerous and perilous future for all. -jtm By Paul Magnusson, who covers international trade and economics for BusinessWeek from Washington Daily Briefing: NEWS ANALYSIS On Aug. 30, a three-judge panel of the World Trade Organization issued its final ruling in a trade dispute that dates back to the Nixon Administration. The international court authorized the European Union to impose penalty tariffs on U.S. exports to Europe by as much as $4 billion a year, by far the largest penalty ever against any of the 144 nations in the Geneva-based trade organization. And the WTO decision represents a complete victory for the Europeans... -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Jack Park Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:27 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) >From: elohimjl > > EU leads pledge to set goals for renewable energy > >Paul Brown and John Vidal in Johannesburg > >Earth summit's weak words spark 30-nation revolt >Dismay at the weakness of the Earth summit's outcome spilled into the >final plenary session in Johannesburg last week when European Union >delegates led a protest against the failure to agree global targets for >increasing renewable energy production. >The leaders of more than 30 government delegations promised to go further >than the summit declaration that renewable energy's share of global energy >production should rise. They agreed to conduct regular reviews of progress >towards ambitious targets at the national, regional and "hopefully at a >global level". > >"Such targets are important tools to guide investment and develop the >market for renewable energy technologies," their statement said. Support >came from all 15 EU states, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, Poland, Hungary, >Czech Republic, Romania, Slovakia, Brazil, Argentina, Uganda, Mexico, and >other Latin American, Caribbean and Pacific states. > >America's isolation on countering climate change was further underlined >last week when its only remaining ally, Australia, shifted ground. The >prime minister, John Howard, who had insisted that Australia would not >ratify the Kyoto protocol to cut greenhouse gas emissions, said he would >reconsider its position. >Another last-minute change was the restoration of a clause on human rights >whose original wording was resisted by the US, the Vatican and Islamic >states. At their insistence the clause omitted the right of women to >contraception and abortion, and hailed the superiority of local cultural >and religious values. The US stepped back when it was pointed out that the >clause would give tacit approval to such widely condemned local traditions >as genital mutilation. > >An attempt by the US to dilute provisions on corporate accountability >and >regulation was rejected, after objections by Ethiopia and Norway. > >The US secretary of state, Colin Powell, was jeered and slow >handclapped >during his speech. A wave of anti-American feeling was unleashed when he >blamed the land reforms of Zimbabwe's president, Robert Mugabe, for >pushing millions of people "to the brink of starvation". > >After long wrangling, agreement was finally reached on the political >text >for the summit, originally written by the conference chairman, the South >African president Thabo Mbeki, which was also tough in the area of >corporate accountability. This was seen as a victory for environmental >groups in their campaign to curb the power of multinationals. But these >groups remained angry that so few targets and timetables for action >reached the final text. NGOs said that, although the summit's action plan >agreed to move towards phasing out export subsidies, the world's >governments had failed to grasp the urgency of opening up agricultural >markets to developing countries. >The Guardian Weekly 12-9-2002, page 5 >-- >elohimjl ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 15:38:36 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6000856FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7B9B056FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020910225634.RKKW16673.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@sony> for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:56:34 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020910155132.01f9a3c0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:53:37 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) In-Reply-To: <000001c2591b$384d8a30$180ec53f@collaboratory> References: <4.2.2.20020910142533.02029100@thinkalong.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org At 07:20 AM 9/10/2002 -0700, John Maloney wrote: "Ad Hominem Argument or Genetic Fallacy ( Argument to the Man) Guilt by Association - Attacking a person rather than the argument. " At 03:41 PM 9/10/2002 -0700, John Maloney wrote: >Jack, > >Here is a good example of how your beloved EU and the insane WTO sell >America down the river. These unelected 'three-judge panels' are making >fools out of all Americans. It is sickening. > >Of course, the US has no veto power and cannot retaliate. Disgraceful. > >What do you think will be the result of this hegemony? Harmony in >sustainable development? Nope. It will generate more rancor and >distance. Do you reasonably think the US would step into another big >mess like the Kyoto Protocol? 'Fraid not. Once bitten, twice shy. > >The Earth Summit was a farce. > >Do you 'get it' yet? > >The doctrine of the WTO is drenched in 19th Century free-trade beliefs >that rendered England, the cradle of the industrial revolution, into a >third-rate manufacturer. > >The 13 colonies resisted all forms of free trade and economic >integration. That resulted in creation of the greatest economic power on >earth. > >Every president on Mt. Rushmore was severely ridiculed by phony >intellectuals and smarmy globalists for being 'protectionist.' In fact, >all they were doing was putting America First. > >Do you have a problem with that? > >Do you know who has the fastest growing economy in today's world? That's >right, the communists in China. Oh, and by they way, they are by far the >most protectionist. > >How can this be made more clear? > >Sadly, there will probably be more, not less, of this dangerous economic >integration and globalization. It is creating a dangerous and perilous >future for all. > >-jtm --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 15:44:35 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A08BF56FF7; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E87956FF5 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020910230233.RSQR16673.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@sony> for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:02:33 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020910155823.01fa1b80@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 15:59:33 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fallacious Reasoning In-Reply-To: <000101c258d5$2629b0e0$180ec53f@collaboratory> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_25778054==_.ALT" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --=====================_25778054==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed John left a few out. Here's one: Name Calling or Substitutions of Names or Moral Labels. This technique attempts to arouse prejudices in an audience by labeling the object of the propaganda campaign as something the target audience fears, hates, loathes, or finds undesirable. From http://serendipity.magnet.ch/more/propagan.html At 07:20 AM 9/10/2002 -0700, John Maloney wrote: > From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric > >*** Fallacious Because of Being Invalid > >Appeal to Authority - Improper appeal to authority. An example is when a >Nobel laureate in chemistry writes an opinion about a subject she is not >an expert such as political science and people then cite him as an >authority about political science believing that being considered and >expert in one area means they are knowledgeable about others. Popularity - >Appeal to the crowd as the authority. An example is someone believing >something is to be true because people in general believe something to be true. > >Traditional Wisdom - Appealing to the past as authority. An example - it >has always been believed that way so therefore it is. > >Provincialism - Failure to look beyond one's own group. Also called >"not-invented-here" syndrome where a knowledge claim is not believed to be >true because it is generated by another group other than one's own. > >Loyalty - Deciding the truth on the basis of loyalty. Believing something >to be true because a group you are loyal to believes it to be true. > >Irrelevant Reason - Use of evidence entirely irrelevant to a conclusion. > >Ambiguity - Use of ambiguous terms to mislead (or which in fact mislead) > >Slippery Slope - Failure to see that the first step in possible series of >steps does not inevitably lead to the rest > >Balkanization theory - The conclusion that the breakup of one company or >nation will lead to others > >Domino theory - The conclusion that if A falls, then B, then C, and others >will also fall. > >Ad Hominem Argument or Genetic Fallacy ( Argument to the Man) Guilt by >Association - Attacking a person rather than the argument. > >Two Wrongs Make a Right or Common Practice - "if someone else does it, it >is OK for me to do it" > >Tokenism - Do a small amount of what is required and then say that you did >the whole thing > >Hasty Conclusion - Jumping to conclusions with not enough evidence > >Questionable Classification - Classifying something falsely > >Questionable Cause - Labeling something as the cause of something else >with not enough evidence > >Questionable Analogy - Falsely comparing or really stretching the >comparison of two things > >******Fallacious Even If Valid > >Suppressed Evidence - Trying to prove a point while not providing all the >evidence, when doing so would weaken the argument. > >Questionable Premise - Accepting premises in an argument that are both >questionable and inadequately supported > >Unknown Fact - Stating supporting facts to an argument that are not >possible to know > >Questionable evaluation - Using language to conjure up an image that is >different from the facts > >Straw man - Misinterpreting or rephrasing an opponent's position so it >becomes easier to attack > >False Dilemma - Trying to make an argument either-or when it is not > >Begging the Question - Endorsing without prove some form of the very >question at issue > >Inconsistency - Arguing using contradictory premises > >False Charge of Fallacy - Charging a person of being inconsistent when all >they did was change their mind > > > > From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog --=====================_25778054==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" John left a few out. Here's one:

Name Calling or Substitutions of Names or Moral Labels. This technique attempts to arouse prejudices in an audience by labeling the object of the propaganda campaign as something the target audience fears, hates, loathes, or finds undesirable.

From http://serendipity.magnet.ch/more/propagan.html


At 07:20 AM 9/10/2002 -0700, John Maloney wrote:

From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric

*** Fallacious Because of Being Invalid

Appeal to Authority - Improper appeal to authority. An example is when a Nobel laureate in chemistry writes an opinion about a subject she is not an expert such as political science and people then cite him as an authority about political science believing that being considered and expert in one area means they are knowledgeable about others. Popularity - Appeal to the crowd as the authority. An example is someone believing something is to be true because people in general believe something to be true.

Traditional Wisdom - Appealing to the past as authority. An example - it has always been believed that way so therefore it is.

Provincialism - Failure to look beyond one's own group. Also called "not-invented-here" syndrome where a knowledge claim is not believed to be true because it is generated by another group other than one's own.

Loyalty - Deciding the truth on the basis of loyalty. Believing something to be true because a group you are loyal to believes it to be true.

Irrelevant Reason - Use of evidence entirely irrelevant to a conclusion.

Ambiguity - Use of ambiguous terms to mislead (or which in fact mislead)

Slippery Slope - Failure to see that the first step in possible series of steps does not inevitably lead to the rest

Balkanization theory - The conclusion that the breakup of one company or nation will lead to others

Domino theory - The conclusion that if A falls, then B, then C, and others will also fall.

Ad Hominem Argument or Genetic Fallacy ( Argument to the Man) Guilt by Association - Attacking a person rather than the argument.

Two Wrongs Make a Right or Common Practice - "if someone else does it, it is OK for me to do it"

Tokenism - Do a small amount of what is required and then say that you did the whole thing

Hasty Conclusion - Jumping to conclusions with not enough evidence

Questionable Classification - Classifying something falsely

Questionable Cause - Labeling something as the cause of something else with not enough evidence

Questionable Analogy - Falsely comparing or really stretching the comparison of two things

******Fallacious Even If Valid

Suppressed Evidence - Trying to prove a point while not providing all the evidence, when doing so would weaken the argument.

Questionable Premise - Accepting premises in an argument that are both questionable and inadequately supported

Unknown Fact - Stating supporting facts to an argument that are not possible to know

Questionable evaluation - Using language to conjure up an image that is different from the facts

Straw man - Misinterpreting or rephrasing an opponent's position so it becomes easier to attack

False Dilemma - Trying to make an argument either-or when it is not

Begging the Question - Endorsing without prove some form of the very question at issue

Inconsistency - Arguing using contradictory premises

False Charge of Fallacy - Charging a person of being inconsistent when all they did was change their mind

 

From Howard Kahane (1976) Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2.

http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog --=====================_25778054==_.ALT-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 18:02:03 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 729B156FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:02:02 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.chariot.net.au (mail.chariot.net.au [203.87.95.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8208856FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 18:02:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steves-imac.local. (ppp-024.cust203-87-118.ghr.chariot.net.au [203.87.118.24]) by mail.chariot.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEA1B17F83C for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:50:03 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:50:09 +0930 Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) From: stephen white To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <000001c2591b$384d8a30$180ec53f@collaboratory> Message-Id: <9C9837A8-C524-11D6-9B71-000393774D2C@chariot.net.au> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 08:11 AM, John Maloney wrote: > Every president on Mt. Rushmore was severely ridiculed by phony > intellectuals and smarmy globalists for being 'protectionist.' In fact, > all they were doing was putting America First. > > Do you have a problem with that? Yeah, coz I'm not American and America has been putting itself first for so long that it's the world superpower with no checks or controls to prevent it from being a Rogue Nation. Have you looked to see how often your own Constitution is regularly and repeatedly violated with illegal amendments? Have you wondered why most changes are made through the Tax Code rather than direct law? Nothing is going to stop this, other than a paradigm changing (un-)revolution. Not the boring kind that's happened in the past, but the kind that happens when people have new tools that create new capabilities. How about focussing on technology to help _PEOPLE_ work together instead of this pointless attempt to sway us to your specific brand of parochial thought? -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 20:30:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 659BA56FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:30:56 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts6.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.26]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A5BD056FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.169]) by tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020911034857.KQWS12912.tomts6-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:48:57 -0400 Message-ID: <3D7EBC45.40D6F3EB@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:45:09 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Instant Ontologies: The Strength of Weak Links References: <3D7D3615.910143D9@sun.com> <3D7D4E9D.8E468135@sympatico.ca> <3D7E4E17.1CAFF64C@sun.com> <3D7E4E8F.E640A140@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric, While you're jogging, perhaps? :-) Henry Eric Armstrong wrote: > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > Thanks, Henry. > > > > The next move is a research project: > > * Come up to speed on the state of the art in network theory. > > while at the same time beginning construction. > > * Use a google-style web crawler, since it is already doing > > enough parsing to identify links. > > * Then modify the parser to find lists that match the pattern, > > and put together a list of words to ignore in the headings. > > * Finally, put a human in the loop. Human reviews results and > > says "good" or "no good", modifying the pattern in the process. > > (Interestingly, a human could by such votes program a neural-net > > machine which would become increasingly good at recognizing > > useful patterns -- although we would never have a clue as to > > what it was doing.) > > > > Whether or not anything useful would come of it is hard to say. > > Whether it would duplicate Cyc, complement Cyc, use Cyc to > > help construct it's ontology, or go way beyond Cyc, is another > > matter that would have to be determined by experience. > > > > Regardless of its success or failure, it would definitely make an > > interesting paper. > > Note: > The foregoing unfortunately cannot be construed as a commitment > to actually pursue this line of research. My employer occupies my > half my time. My book and what has turned into 8 patentable ideas > for exercise equipment are occupying the other half. Between halves, > I sleep. > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > This is the kind of thinking that could lead to an important tool in the > > > construction of Doug's idea of a continually updated encyclopedia or > > > handbook. > > > > > > What is the next move? > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > > > A few ideas rubbed together the other day, and it occurred > > > > to me that a web crawler capable of parsing HTML pages to > > > > find links already has enough intelligence to begin constructing > > > > a first-cut ontology. > > > > > > > > Note: > > > > The mechanism described here may be something like the idea > > > > behind the Teoma search engine (http://www.teoma.com), although > > > > they may well have other mechanisms, in addition to this one. > > > > > > > > The first thought was that "weak links" predict similarity much > > > > better than "strong links". ("Strong links" describes clustered > > > > material -- material that is in close proximity, with many > > > > individual links between them, as well as links to other pages, > > > > all of which link to each other. > > > > > > > > In this context, it makes sense to think of a directory hierarchy as > > > > "linked". So it's clear that a collection of pages at a company or a > > > > college have something in common, but generally such a collection > > > > of pages embodies *many* ontological concepts. So strongly > > > > linked pages are not that good for identifying concepts. > > > > > > > > But if two separate clusters have a single connection > > > > between them -- a weak link -- then that link implies *some* kind > > > > of similarity. That recognition then entails two further problems: > > > > a. Giving a name to the concept that identifies the similarity. > > > > b. Separating reference-type links (and other "non-similar") links > > > > from links that indicate similarity ("other things of this kind") > > > > > > > > For example, on a page describing exercises, there could be > > > > references to anatomy descriptions, and links to equipment > > > > manufacturers, as well as links to similar exercises. Each would > > > > be a weak link, but any similarities would be non-obvious. > > > > > > > > The problem is to identify which links indicate "similarity". But > > > > it occurs to me that HTML formatting may well provide enough > > > > clues to make some good guesses. > > > > > > > > Basically, a "weak link" page that gives a list of links is more likely > > > > than not to be identifying an ontological concept. > > > > > > > > The format for such concept references would be: > > > > > > > > 1. A heading with one or two major words. For example: > > > > --Equipment > > > > --Exercise Equipment > > > > --Exercises > > > > --Authors of Note > > > > --Signs of the Times > > > > > > > > 2. A short paragraph of introductory text. > > > > > > > > 3. List items containing short paragraphs, each with one link > > > > > > > > Of course, there are some lists that would not be useful. For > > > > example, JavaWorld articles always end with a "Resources" > > > > section. The concept is obviously not "resources", but is > > > > rather the subject matter covered in the article. > > > > > > > > Still, it would be possible to filter out the limited number of > > > > such headings ("for more information", "further reading", > > > > and the like, the same way that small words like "of" and > > > > "the" would be filtered out. What's left, in the context of > > > > the web, would be a collection of named ontological > > > > concepts that could be reviewed and edited. > > > > > > > > Of course, at this point the "ontology" would look like a > > > > simple list of concepts, with no ordering or structuring. > > > > And duplicate concepts with different names would have > > > > to be linked, somehow. > > > > > > > > But it could be a start. Further examination of structural > > > > relationhips might well lead to connections within the > > > > ontology. For example, the concept of "bicycles" is > > > > identified, and a "parts list" on several pages contains > > > > a "derailleur" entry, then perhaps it would be possible to > > > > identfiy the "derailleur is part of a bicycle" relationship. > > > > > > > > Similarly, a book that showed up in the "resources" section > > > > of a few pages could lead to "book x is a resource for > > > > bicycles". > > > > > > > > I dunno. It's an interesting possibility -- that with a modicum > > > > of semantic knowledge, it might be possible to construct a > > > > very sizable ontology from the contents of the web. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 20:39:31 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1D12156FF5; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts13.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 695E856FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 20:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.169]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020911035731.RUEH16602.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:57:31 -0400 Message-ID: <3D7EBE4A.347A353E@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 23:53:46 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Mozilla Rising References: <4.2.2.20020910143926.01fa2520@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Holy Moly! And just about all I just got out of my second Linux class is that cat file1 file2 > fil3 Have a little catching up to do to be with you, Jack! Henry P.S. I have also been told that some fundamental and, to me, burning questions I asked about Linux are not part of the course! Rough times ahead still when it comes to getting Fleabyte where I want it to be. Already put in half a day more in a day than Eric. Jack Park wrote: > http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2002/09/10/browser_wars/index.html > > "Netscape won't dislodge Internet Explorer from its hegemony over browser > space. But its open-source sibling is aiming at even bigger game: Windows." > > I have this hunch that, someday, OpenOffice and Mozilla will come together > in a way that will make us all very happy campers. > > I've figured out how to take apart an OpenOffice document. It's actually a > zip file, not a flat document file. Inside, there are four XML files, one > of which is called content.xml. With a simple script file, you can pop > that out, modify it as you wish, then pop it back in. My experiment is > aimed at turning OpenOffice into one of the user interfaces in the > NexistWiki experiment. Now, when there is seamless integration between > OpenOffice and Mozilla, it will be good. > > Cheers > Jack > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. > Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. > > http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 10 22:19:16 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 07B6D56FF8; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9EF7556FF4 for ; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H2900H3BEA1PQ@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:37:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 22:37:05 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) In-reply-to: <9C9837A8-C524-11D6-9B71-000393774D2C@chariot.net.au> To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <000001c25955$438c36f0$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Stephen, Thanks for your message and concern. I like the tax code bait, we could really go round and round with that one. Won't bite, though. 'Can comment on the parochial thought remark though. Parochial is one of those loaded words that has intrinsic negative connotations. Sort of like religious in 'religious right' or conservative as in 'conservative think tank.' (Q: Why aren't there any 'liberal think tanks?' Is liberal neutral or just vulgar? Also, where is the 'religious left?' Are lefties simply un-religious? I don't think so...) Anyway, the genius of the Internet, for example, is that it enables tight proximate focus, in a global context. Remember that old bromide, 'think globally, act locally?' Glocalization is quite a new thing, and has not been mastered yet. It is highly paradoxical because in order to information to be useful, it needs to be group-wide, for it to be valuable, it needs to be enterprise-wide, for example. Indeed, parochial thought is critical -- just ask anybody that has tried to deploy a corporate 'best practices' program. (Or tried to build an empire!) The problem today is too many people see the USA as the cause AND solution to all the world's problems. It just ain't so. It causes a lot of grief both domestically and internationally. Pop psychologists could probably call it transference. It is a real problem that could be solved by much higher levels of local initiative and independence or in your view, parochial thought. Meta-government defeats local and personal responsibility and consequence. Same is true of innovation, collaboration, community, computing and communications. Believe me, it is not my intention to sway anybody, and strictly do not originate unrev threads that are partisan, provocative or otherwise off-topic. Finally, it probably would make sense for people that originate threads containing bellicose political editorials and crackpot off-topic opinions to find a group more suited to their particular interests and leanings. Cheers, -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of stephen white Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 6:20 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) On Wednesday, September 11, 2002, at 08:11 AM, John Maloney wrote: > Every president on Mt. Rushmore was severely ridiculed by phony > intellectuals and smarmy globalists for being 'protectionist.' In > fact, all they were doing was putting America First. > > Do you have a problem with that? Yeah, coz I'm not American and America has been putting itself first for so long that it's the world superpower with no checks or controls to prevent it from being a Rogue Nation. Have you looked to see how often your own Constitution is regularly and repeatedly violated with illegal amendments? Have you wondered why most changes are made through the Tax Code rather than direct law? Nothing is going to stop this, other than a paradigm changing (un-)revolution. Not the boring kind that's happened in the past, but the kind that happens when people have new tools that create new capabilities. How about focussing on technology to help _PEOPLE_ work together instead of this pointless attempt to sway us to your specific brand of parochial thought? -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 11 00:40:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E228756FF8; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 00:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cream.kiva.net (cust-216-9-146-10.bton.kiva.net [216.9.146.10]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A18B56FF4 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 00:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cdent@localhost) by cream.kiva.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8B7rlF13572 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:53:47 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: cream.kiva.net: cdent owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 02:53:47 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Dent X-X-Sender: To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) In-Reply-To: <000001c25955$438c36f0$180ec53f@collaboratory> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org John, I've been hesitant to join in this thread. In part because it appears to be a waste and in part because as far as I can tell you are a paranoid, nationalistic, states-rights fruitcake with whom I'm embarassed to be associated. However because I'm not sure you aren't playing some twisted game and in the interest of collaborative discussion instead of giving you a *plonk* I have 2 questions and a request: On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, John Maloney wrote: > Meta-government defeats local and personal responsibility and > consequence. Same is true of innovation, collaboration, community, > computing and communications. 1) I can't parse the second sentence here. What is it that is true of those things you list? 2) In my view the uni- or bi-lateralism that you appear to support in international policy is antithetical to the philosophical underpinnings of collaboration. How do you reconcile that with your own apparently very strong interest in Engelbart's style of collaboration or at least collaboration in general? That style finds its philosophical foundations in the same places as people who like to think of the world as an open, dynamic and interdependent system where the rapacious self-interest and boundary creation that you appear to advocate is unsustainable. Check out the first few chapters of this book for the philosophy: Bardini, T. (2000). Bootstrapping: Douglas Englebart Coevolution, and the Origins of Personal Computing. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press. or for some of my own comments on such things: http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/index.cgi?word=110 The request: If it's in your purview, can you take me off the kmcluster mailings? I'm not interested in supporting that organization by inflating its mailing list. Nor do I wish to receive announcements for events I'm unable to attend. -- Chris Dent http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/ "If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." N.Chomsky From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 11 01:22:42 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5EB4B56FF8; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mailone.kub.nl (mailone.kub.nl [137.56.0.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B9DB56FF4 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 01:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prefix1 (prefix1.kub.nl [137.56.0.78]) by mailone.kub.nl (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8B8eWsc021616 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:40:32 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:40:31 +0200 (MET DST) From: Aldo de Moor X-X-Sender: ademoor@prefix1 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet In-Reply-To: <000001c25915$59fec7d0$180ec53f@collaboratory> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.4 required=5.0 X-Spam-Level: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org John, > The call today is to retire these flaw supra-governments in favor of far > more organic, direct and community oriented methods. The same goes for I partially agree with your points. True, international governmental structures induce problems of legitimacy, efficacy, etc. However, where we seem to disagree is on the necessity of these structures, on whether they are an 'evil empire' (your point of view) or a 'necessary evil' (my perspective). You seem to confuse type and instance. The UN is an instance of a type of global meta-government, or rather of a worldwide meta-discussion and negotiation organization. In today's global system with all its links and dependencies, such a structure is inevitable. If we'd go your way, we would still have a global village, but then even more out of control. Multinationals and governments could - and would - still do their thing, but now even more unchecked and unbalanced. As an instance, the UN is flawed and needs *reform* (NB: one reason it is so ineffective, is because of the continuous sabotage committed by the US). However, we cannot do without *some form* of meta-government. A good example is the EU. This form of meta-government is also seriously ill, and needs to be restructured. Just think of the lack of legitimacy of European policy-making. 80% of European laws are now produced in Brussels, but the quality of democratic decision-making is highly questionable. Still, would we want to do without it? Despite all its problems, it has prevented wars amongst its members for the past 50+ years. Even more important, it has changed people's mindsets: a war with Germany would be totally inconceivable. Having achieved the almost complete erasure of the deep feelings of hatred and mistrust engendered by WWII is a major achievement, I would say. The very fact that half my colleagues and many students at the university are non-Dutch, is also a tangible result of how this organization has increased intra-European collaboration and exchange. 'Organic, direct, and community oriented methods' are needed, absolutely. But rather than abolishing the global level and going back to some Thomas Hobbes kind of brutish tribal society, we need to inject those methods at the highest levels as well. Regards, Aldo ========================================================================== ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor Dr. Aldo de Moor Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands ========================================================================== From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 11 09:37:23 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B6CF156FF8; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail4.atl.registeredsite.com (mail4.atl.registeredsite.com [64.224.219.78]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C020056FF4 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.kmcluster.com (mail.kmcluster.com [64.226.164.169]) by mail4.atl.registeredsite.com (8.12.2/8.12.5) with ESMTP id g8BGtLsq027447 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:55:21 -0400 Received: from collaboratory [64.226.164.169] by mail.kmcluster.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-6.06) id A577360E004E; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:55:19 -0400 From: "John Maloney" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 09:55:11 -0700 Organization: KM Cluster Message-ID: <000001c259b3$fe67f8c0$aa01010a@collaboratory> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Aldo, Thanks for your cogent remarks. Indeed, I am strongly in favor of international standards bodies, some health orgs, cultural exchange, tourism, education, collaboration, etc. Where the concept goes sour is with economic integration. Political integration soon follows, leading to all the problems we are trying to avoid: poverty, disenfranchisement, environmental destruction, mindless bureaucracies, etc. The arrogant UN and its economic brainchild, the WTO, have caused most of these problems by overreaching, politicking and internationalism. Re. peace in Europe has been sustained by NATO and 250,000 US troops based in Germany for half a century. Not to mention France's Force de Frappe, tested in Micronesia as recent as 1995.(?) The power-mad socialist EU's response to the Balkan crisis was a disgrace. You're right the EU is highly dysfunctional. The sick extreme right that has mobilized across Europe is just a hint of what's in store for this demented meta-government and the continent. The Brits get it, having been burned before: economic and political superstructures just don't work. -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Aldo de Moor Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 1:41 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: An Uncertain Trumpet John, > The call today is to retire these flaw supra-governments in favor of > far more organic, direct and community oriented methods. The same goes > for I partially agree with your points. True, international governmental structures induce problems of legitimacy, efficacy, etc. However, where we seem to disagree is on the necessity of these structures, on whether they are an 'evil empire' (your point of view) or a 'necessary evil' (my perspective). You seem to confuse type and instance. The UN is an instance of a type of global meta-government, or rather of a worldwide meta-discussion and negotiation organization. In today's global system with all its links and dependencies, such a structure is inevitable. If we'd go your way, we would still have a global village, but then even more out of control. Multinationals and governments could - and would - still do their thing, but now even more unchecked and unbalanced. As an instance, the UN is flawed and needs *reform* (NB: one reason it is so ineffective, is because of the continuous sabotage committed by the US). However, we cannot do without *some form* of meta-government. A good example is the EU. This form of meta-government is also seriously ill, and needs to be restructured. Just think of the lack of legitimacy of European policy-making. 80% of European laws are now produced in Brussels, but the quality of democratic decision-making is highly questionable. Still, would we want to do without it? Despite all its problems, it has prevented wars amongst its members for the past 50+ years. Even more important, it has changed people's mindsets: a war with Germany would be totally inconceivable. Having achieved the almost complete erasure of the deep feelings of hatred and mistrust engendered by WWII is a major achievement, I would say. The very fact that half my colleagues and many students at the university are non-Dutch, is also a tangible result of how this organization has increased intra-European collaboration and exchange. 'Organic, direct, and community oriented methods' are needed, absolutely. But rather than abolishing the global level and going back to some Thomas Hobbes kind of brutish tribal society, we need to inject those methods at the highest levels as well. Regards, Aldo ======================================================================== == ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor Dr. Aldo de Moor Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands ======================================================================== == From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 11 12:17:09 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C30EF56FF8; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:17:08 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nccn6.nccn.net (nccn6.nccn.net [209.79.220.19]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 623C656FF4 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fungus (yrt.nccn.net [209.79.221.54]) by nccn6.nccn.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/*rGs* NO UCE! [V13]) with ESMTP id g8BJZ6jS027171 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:35:08 -0700 Message-Id: <200209111935.g8BJZ6jS027171@nccn6.nccn.net> From: "blincoln" To: "ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org" Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:36:42 -0700 X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.20.2502) For Windows 2000 (5.0.2195;2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Mozilla Rising Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org jack park: >I've figured out how to take apart an OpenOffice document. It's actually a >zip file, not a flat document file. Inside, there are four XML files, one >of which is called content.xml. With a simple script file, you can pop >that out, modify it as you wish, then pop it back in. My experiment is >aimed at turning OpenOffice into one of the user interfaces in the >NexistWiki experiment. Now, when there is seamless integration between >OpenOffice and Mozilla, it will be good. I have been very pleased with openoffice, since I discovered the editor has support for the word-style edit-tracking. I've been using the spreadsheet thing and it has, so far, everything I need although I haven't played with the graphing/charting software yet. Your mentioning that zip file type reminded me of something I have yearned for as an archivist. An open-source, simple, all-in-one browserable document type. PDF is a good example of what I'm talking about, where the text and images are all contained in a single file so its easy to manage. Compare this to an HTML document, where there can be a dozen included images or script files which can be scattered about like some diseased octopus. Very awful for archive management. The simplest idea is exactly something like you describe above, a zip file (tar, whatever), which is recognized by the browser as an aggregate item, has either an index file or a standardly-named file inside that it opens as the main document, and all the images and script files are inside the box. I am very glad to hear that openoffice is doing something like this and I really look forward to seeing something like this in mozilla direct support. bcl From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 11 12:43:57 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E426756FF8; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu05.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu05.email.msn.com [207.46.181.81]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 896A456FF4 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.39.60]) by cpimssmtpu05.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:00:52 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Mozilla Rising Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:01:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <200209111935.g8BJZ6jS027171@nccn6.nccn.net> Importance: Normal X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Sep 2002 20:00:52.0692 (UTC) FILETIME=[EEA78940:01C259CD] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org There's a MIME-type for an aggregation that is used when complete HTML plus images are sent via E-mail, for example. Internet Explorer (since at least 5.0) will save a complete (with all included images) web page in that format (called *.mht in that case) and what it looks like in the file is a mail note with the MIME-type material in it. That is, they use the MIME multipart technique as a standard for the encoding of the material in a file. For multiple pages with dependencies, there is the HTML Help-systems structure that both Netscape and Microsoft supported at one time. I don't know what its present status is, but the current *.chm files implement it to one degree or another. I mention this because there are HELP authoring systems that can make these packages or create sets of Web pages with equal facility. There is compression in *.chm packages, but I don't know what the particular technique is. What is relevant here is that the matter of linking within the package has been dealt with. The MIME multi-part encoding may be what is sought as an open specification. (My understanding is that the PDF specification is semi-closed while Adobe vibrates about intellectual property.) I don't know how far the HTML packaging used for HELP systems got as an open specification, and how much of it is honored by current browsers and Help kits. -- orcmid ------------------ Dennis E. Hamilton http://NuovoDoc.com/ mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org tel. +1-206-932-6970 cell +1-206-779-9430 The Miser Project: http://miser-theory.info/ AIIM DMware: http://DMware.info/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of blincoln Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:37 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Mozilla Rising [ ... ] Your mentioning that zip file type reminded me of something I have yearned for as an archivist. An open-source, simple, all-in-one browserable document type. PDF is a good example of what I'm talking about, where the text and images are all contained in a single file so its easy to manage. Compare this to an HTML document, where there can be a dozen included images or script files which can be scattered about like some diseased octopus. Very awful for archive management. The simplest idea is exactly something like you describe above, a zip file (tar, whatever), which is recognized by the browser as an aggregate item, has either an index file or a standardly-named file inside that it opens as the main document, and all the images and script files are inside the box. [ ... ] From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 11 12:57:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7488856FF8; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1DDB456FF4 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020911201512.MKWK6225.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 20:15:12 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020911131136.01febd30@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:12:16 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Mozilla Rising In-Reply-To: <200209111935.g8BJZ6jS027171@nccn6.nccn.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org At 12:36 PM 9/11/2002 -0700, you wrote: >I have been very pleased with openoffice, since I discovered the editor >has support for the word-style edit-tracking. I've been using the spreadsheet >thing and it has, so far, everything I need although I haven't played with >the graphing/charting software yet. A nearly show-stopper for the present OpenOffice build is the 32000 row limitation of the spreadsheet. Hope they fix that soon. Jack --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 11 12:59:29 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1F3F656FF9; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0C4C56FF8 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 12:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H2A009SDJ0ZSY@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:17:12 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) In-reply-to: To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <000c01c259d0$3a015270$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Chris, Thanks for your message. I was quite surprised to your reaction to dissent. Is dissent un-unrev? I know dissent is not un-American. BTW, are you a statist? An apparatchik? Look, meta-govt, bureaucracies and empire squashes innovation, collaboration, community, computing and communications. It is not worth the keystrokes to explain... According to Marshall McLuhan, for yet another example, decentralism is essential to electronic technology just as centralism was critical for mechanical technology specialization and military industrialization. It can't be made any simpler. The electric world could be "open, dynamic and interdependent" unless you close it down with rigid, mechanistic, self-serving economic bureaucracies like the EU, NAFTA, WTO and the rest. Their bogus charter and mission will not serve the 21st century. At the time, Napoleon's empire and idea of a 'continental system' was already a disaster costing millions of lives. Its vulture roost is now Brussels. It will prove a lot harder, costly and more painful to dismantle that it was to create. Quiet frankly, the electronic 'unrev' society is more akin to an agrarian society and has little requirement to be served by phony, corrupt and unelected supra-govt. It's back to the future, baby. The arrogant UN is the biggest offender of them all because of its tendency of deep centralization, elitism, numbing bureaucracy, counterfeit 'global views' and profound indifference to the body politic. Like every rising empire, they strive to engineer the individual out of the equation. Have a look at "War and Peace in the Global Village," by Professor McLuhan, and Max H. Boisot's "Knowledge Assets," for more background. -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Chris Dent Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:54 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) John, I've been hesitant to join in this thread. In part because it appears to be a waste and in part because as far as I can tell you are a paranoid, nationalistic, states-rights fruitcake with whom I'm embarassed to be associated. However because I'm not sure you aren't playing some twisted game and in the interest of collaborative discussion instead of giving you a *plonk* I have 2 questions and a request: On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, John Maloney wrote: > Meta-government defeats local and personal responsibility and > consequence. Same is true of innovation, collaboration, community, > computing and communications. 1) I can't parse the second sentence here. What is it that is true of those things you list? 2) In my view the uni- or bi-lateralism that you appear to support in international policy is antithetical to the philosophical underpinnings of collaboration. How do you reconcile that with your own apparently very strong interest in Engelbart's style of collaboration or at least collaboration in general? That style finds its philosophical foundations in the same places as people who like to think of the world as an open, dynamic and interdependent system where the rapacious self-interest and boundary creation that you appear to advocate is unsustainable. Check out the first few chapters of this book for the philosophy: Bardini, T. (2000). Bootstrapping: Douglas Englebart Coevolution, and the Origins of Personal Computing. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press. or for some of my own comments on such things: http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/index.cgi?word=110 The request: If it's in your purview, can you take me off the kmcluster mailings? I'm not interested in supporting that organization by inflating its mailing list. Nor do I wish to receive announcements for events I'm unable to attend. -- Chris Dent http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/ "If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." N.Chomsky From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 11 13:16:48 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4026556FF8; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1AC9956FF4 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-586.honker.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.246.74] helo=vaio) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17pECB-0005LB-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:34:43 +0100 Message-ID: <002901c259d2$4f7ea7e0$4af6193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <000c01c259d0$3a015270$180ec53f@collaboratory> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 21:32:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org John, Does that mean you would support the kinds of _temporary_ multilateral economic groupings that the US has been party to at various times in the last 250 years on and off? Cheers, -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Maloney" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 9:17 PM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) > Chris, > > Thanks for your message. > > I was quite surprised to your reaction to dissent. Is dissent un-unrev? > I know dissent is not un-American. > > BTW, are you a statist? An apparatchik? > > Look, meta-govt, bureaucracies and empire squashes innovation, > collaboration, community, computing and communications. It is not worth > the keystrokes to explain... > > According to Marshall McLuhan, for yet another example, decentralism is > essential to electronic technology just as centralism was critical for > mechanical technology specialization and military industrialization. > > It can't be made any simpler. The electric world could be "open, dynamic > and interdependent" unless you close it down with rigid, mechanistic, > self-serving economic bureaucracies like the EU, NAFTA, WTO and the > rest. Their bogus charter and mission will not serve the 21st century. > > At the time, Napoleon's empire and idea of a 'continental system' was > already a disaster costing millions of lives. Its vulture roost is now > Brussels. It will prove a lot harder, costly and more painful to > dismantle that it was to create. > > Quiet frankly, the electronic 'unrev' society is more akin to an > agrarian society and has little requirement to be served by phony, > corrupt and unelected supra-govt. > > It's back to the future, baby. > > The arrogant UN is the biggest offender of them all because of its > tendency of deep centralization, elitism, numbing bureaucracy, > counterfeit 'global views' and profound indifference to the body > politic. Like every rising empire, they strive to engineer the > individual out of the equation. > > Have a look at "War and Peace in the Global Village," by Professor > McLuhan, and Max H. Boisot's "Knowledge Assets," for more background. > > -jtm > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Chris Dent > Sent: Wednesday, September 11, 2002 12:54 AM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) > > > > John, > > I've been hesitant to join in this thread. In part because it appears to > be a waste and in part because as far as I can tell you are a paranoid, > nationalistic, states-rights fruitcake with whom I'm embarassed to be > associated. However because I'm not sure you aren't playing some twisted > game and in the interest of collaborative discussion instead of giving > you a *plonk* I have 2 questions and a > request: > > On Tue, 10 Sep 2002, John Maloney wrote: > > > Meta-government defeats local and personal responsibility and > > consequence. Same is true of innovation, collaboration, community, > > computing and communications. > > 1) I can't parse the second sentence here. What is it that is true of > those things you list? > > 2) In my view the uni- or bi-lateralism that you appear to support in > international policy is antithetical to the philosophical underpinnings > of collaboration. How do you reconcile that with your own apparently > very strong interest in Engelbart's style of collaboration or at least > collaboration in general? > > That style finds its philosophical foundations in the same places as > people who like to think of the world as an open, dynamic and > interdependent system where the rapacious self-interest and boundary > creation that you appear to advocate is unsustainable. > > Check out the first few chapters of this book for the philosophy: > > Bardini, T. (2000). Bootstrapping: Douglas Englebart Coevolution, and > the Origins of Personal Computing. Stanford, California: > Stanford > University Press. > > or for some of my own comments on such things: > > http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/index.cgi?word=110 > > The request: > > If it's in your purview, can you take me off the kmcluster mailings? I'm > not interested in supporting that organization by inflating its mailing > list. Nor do I wish to receive announcements for events I'm unable to > attend. > > -- > Chris Dent > http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/ > "If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are > opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be > justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." > N.Chomsky > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 11 13:46:53 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 991D456FF8; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cream.kiva.net (cust-216-9-146-10.bton.kiva.net [216.9.146.10]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F77456FF4 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 13:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cdent@localhost) by cream.kiva.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8BKxk916345 for ; Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:59:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: cream.kiva.net: cdent owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2002 15:59:46 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Dent X-X-Sender: To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] News from Johannesburg (2) In-Reply-To: <000c01c259d0$3a015270$180ec53f@collaboratory> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Wed, 11 Sep 2002, John Maloney wrote: > I was quite surprised to your reaction to dissent. Is dissent un-unrev? > I know dissent is not un-American. Dissent is essential. You know that as well as I do. > BTW, are you a statist? An apparatchik? Hi, my name is Chris Dent. I'm currently a student. I've been a few other things as well. I reside in the United States of America but I'm not a citizen there. I have opinions about things. Lots of them. Thus far I've not been able to categorize myself. I'm pleased with that. I take the good stuff and use it and save the not so good stuff for making comparisons later. I'm a human, I live in the entire world, just like everyone else. I pledge no permanent allegience to any authority embodied or not. > Look, meta-govt, bureaucracies and empire squashes innovation, > collaboration, community, computing and communications. It is not worth > the keystrokes to explain... Thank you for answering my first question. I couldn't tell whether you were saying that collabortion squashes innovation as meta-govt does, or that meta-govt squashes collaboration. You've cleared things up. I would reinterpret what you are saying to be that poorly performed collaboration squashes collaboration, community, etc. Thus the need for reform that others have mentioned. Thus, as well, the need for standards of exchange. If you want exchange to be multi-lateral, then people have to get together and chat and make some agreements. You seem to be arguing against multi-lateralism and that's the part of this discussion that I don't really understand and thus the reason I asked you my second question, which you did not answer. I said: 2) In my view the uni- or bi-lateralism that you appear to support in international policy is antithetical to the philosophical underpinnings of collaboration. How do you reconcile that with your own apparently very strong interest in Engelbart's style of collaboration or at least collaboration in general? > According to Marshall McLuhan, for yet another example, decentralism is > essential to electronic technology just as centralism was critical for > mechanical technology specialization and military industrialization. I agree that decentralizing control is necessary for effective use of electronic technology as well as being an effective member of society. However that only reinforces the need for shared understanding and agreement in the global domain because the local domains are part of the bigger picture and benefit from exchange. > It can't be made any simpler. The electric world could be "open, dynamic > and interdependent" unless you close it down with rigid, mechanistic, > self-serving economic bureaucracies like the EU, NAFTA, WTO and the > rest. Their bogus charter and mission will not serve the 21st century. Instead you suggest that individual states create their own rigid, self-serving bureaucracies against which the other states can beat their heads? This I don't get. > Quiet frankly, the electronic 'unrev' society is more akin to an > agrarian society and has little requirement to be served by phony, > corrupt and unelected supra-govt. Actually, I tend to disagree. It seems this group needs mutually agreed upon targets for development and improvement and some thing to "manage" those targets. Much like what the Johannesburg summit wanted but didn't really get. People can get together to shake hands for a few days, but eventually it'd be nice to make the world a better place, yeah? Or perhaps we should leave that to industrys so somebody can make money from it? Also, you didn't respond to my request. If you could take care of that I'd appreciate it. Thanks. -- Chris Dent http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/ "If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." N.Chomsky From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 12 06:44:53 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D83DA56FF9; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6934F56FF8 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020912140256.YGJI16673.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@sony> for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 14:02:56 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020912065841.0209faa0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 06:59:57 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] [Fwd: GANDHI'S LAW (Loka Alert 9:5)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: Steve Kurtz > >I think the below message is in accord with Tom Mandel's statements of the= =20 >past few years. I question whether the mostly closed system (earth) and=20 >the more than doubling of our numbers since Ghandi's death (more than=20 >quadrupling since his birth) permit sufficient potential for such a 'law'.= =20 >The ought and the is may conflict too greatly with each other. As Isaac=20 >Asimov said (paraphrase): democracy, decency, etc cannot survive=20 >overpopulation. > >Death becomes more and more commonplace, and humans are devalued like a=20 >currency in hyperinflation. > >I agree that those of us with some aesthetic distance, economic means, and= =20 >full bellies must try to make an impact somehow. But I disagree that=20 >spreading love is the key. Self restraint in consumption and reproduction= =20 >are high on my list.Overshoot is a very nasty phenomenon. Powerful=20 >aggression may be part of our inevitable self-cull. > >Steve Kurtz > > ISSS: http://www.isss.org/ > > Loka Institute http://www.loka.org/ > >-------- Original Message -------- >From: The Loka Institute >Subject: GANDHI'S LAW (Loka Alert 9:5) >To: loka-alert@yahoogroups.com > > > >Loka Alert 9:5 (September 10, 2002) > >GANDHI'S LAW > >PLEASE FORWARD WIDELY WHERE APPROPRIATE > >Dear Friends and Colleagues, > >At this time of national reflection, we share these words from >Mahatma Gandhi. Gandhi (1869-1948) has been an inspiration to the >Loka Institute, as to so many others. He developed the basic >techniques of non-violent social action and led some of its most >effective applications ever, first in South Africa and then in India. >He also was one of the first to promote critical thinking about >Western technologies, and the concept of appropriate technology. > >Gandhi's commitment to non-violent social transformation =96 >his "experiments with truth" as he called it =96 >demonstrated new ways to resolve conflict creatively, >while honoring the humanity of all: > >**************************************************************** > >We must either let the Law of Love rule us through and through or not >at all. Love among ourselves based on hatred of others b >reaks down >under the slightest pressure. The fact is such love is never real >love. It is an armed peace. And so it will be in this great movement >in the West against war. War will only be stopped when the conscience >of mankind has become sufficiently elevated to recognize the >undisputed supremacy of the Law of Love in all the walks of life. >Some say this will never come to pass. I shall retain the faith till >the end of my earthly existence that this shall come to pass . . . > >. . . Non-violence is a weapon of the strong. With the weak, it might >easily be hypocrisy. Fear and love are contradictory terms. Love is >reckless in giving away, oblivious as to what it gets in return. Love >wrestles with the world as with itself and ultimately gains a mastery >over all other feelings. My daily experience, as of those who are >working with me, is that every problem would lend itself to solution >if we are determined to make the law of truth and non-violence the >law of life. Fo >r truth and non-violence are, to me, faces of the same >coin. > >Whether mankind will consciously follow the law of love I do not >know. But that need not perturb us. The law will work, just as the >law of gravitation will work whether we accept it or no. And just as >a scientist will work wonders out of various applications of the laws >of nature, even so a man who applies the law of love with scientific >precision can work greater wonders. For the force of non-violence is >infinitely more wonderful and subtle than the force of nature, like >for instance electricity. > >The person who discovered for us the law of love was a far greater >scientist than any of our modern scientists. Only our explorations >have not gone far enough and so it is not possible for everyone to >see all its workings. Such, at any rate, is the hallucination, if it >is one, under which I am laboring. The more I work at this law, the >more I feel the delight in life, the delight in the scheme of this >unive >rse. It gives me a peace and a meaning of the mysteries of >nature that I have no power to describe. > --Mahatma Gandhi-- > >******************************************************************* > >(Reference: From _ The Essential Writings of Mahatma Gandhi _ edited >by Raghavan Iyer, 1996, published by Manzar Khan, Oxford University >Press, New Delhi, pp. 242-243.) > >With warm regards to all, from the Board of Trustees of the Loka >Institute. We welcome your comments and reflections -- you may reach >us at Loka@Loka.org. > >-- >http://magma.ca/~gpco/ >http://www.scientists4pr.org/ >Anyone who believes exponential g >rowth can go on forever in a >finite world is either a madman or an economist. Kenneth Boulding --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 12 13:41:09 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id CA8C557000; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D1D256FFD for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 13:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-73.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.73] helo=rcn.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #6) id 17pb3J-0006hZ-00; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:59:05 -0400 Message-ID: <3D81000F.9030605@rcn.com> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 16:58:55 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: A War Based on Rumors] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Excerpts from Eli Pariser's post to MoveOn.Org 9/12/02 In August, White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card told the New York Times that "you don't launch a new product in August." (Link to article below.) The product he was referring to was a war with Iraq, and today's speech by President Bush at the United Nations marks the grand product launch. Bush's speech was great marketing -- the copy was well- written and the timing perfect for a publicity campaign. It's no coincidence that the push for a war on Iraq occurs only a day after September 11th. The New York Times article above quoted Administration officials who said that Sept. 11 would be "a centerpiece of the strategy," helping to "move Americans toward support of action against Iraq." For weeks now, Administration officials have been playing up this speech as Bush's big opportunity to "make his case." But while the marketing has been stellar, the case itself simply hasn't been made. In his speech Bush released no new intelligence and made no novel arguments. Instead, he rolled out a laundry list of old grievances and half-truths. According to CNN, many of the allegations the Bush White House made about Iraq are entirely unsubstantiated, or are based on the testim ny of sworn enemies of Saddam Hussein. (Link to article below) ............................ Where's the beef? Where's the evidence of clear and present danger? What happened to Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda? If our allies don't support this, are we going ahead or not? Who's going to pick up the pieces in Iraq? Why now, right before the election? How many lives will be lost? How much money will be spent? What are the alternatives? ................................................ To play politics with a national tragedy is unconscionable. To do so in the service of a foolish and destabilizing war adds injury to insult. . The New York Times article referred to is at: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/07/politics/07STRA.html The CNN article is at: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/12/iraq.report/ From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 12 15:07:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5E06C56FFE; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail8.wlv.netzero.net (mail8.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.58]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 52D2556FFD for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 20267 invoked from network); 12 Sep 2002 22:25:50 -0000 Received: from dsc01.oav-ca-5.rasserver.net (HELO netzero.net) (207.94.108.210) by mail8.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 12 Sep 2002 22:25:50 -0000 Message-ID: <3D8114C7.6DB201EA@netzero.net> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 15:27:19 -0700 From: "John J. Deneen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-{C-UDP; EBM-SONY1} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Converging Technologies for Improving Human Performance & The Human Cognome Project Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Relative to the Bootstrap Alliance and CITRIS exploring potential collaborative projects across a wide range of disciplines, I believe, the following are interesting new references discovered on the Principia Cybernetica Website about the Global Brain / Superorganism. < http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/GBRAINREF.html > 1) Converging Technologies for Improving Human Performance (pre-publication on-line version) VISUAL LANGUAGE AND CONVERGING TECHNOLOGIES IN THE NEXT 10-15 YEARS (AND BEYOND) Robert E. Horn, Visiting Scholar, Stanford University < http://itri.loyola.edu/ConvergingTechnologies/Report/NBIC_B_HumanCognition.pdf > 2) Beginning to Conceptualize the Human Cognome Project (by Robert E. Horn, Visiting Scholar, Stanford University) Draft 4/30/02 A paper prepared for the National Science Foundation Conference on Converging Technologies (Nano-Bio-Info-Cogno) Draft 4/30/02 < http://www.stanford.edu/~rhorn/images/artclCncptlzHumnCognomeFIN.pdf > ********** Excerpts from ref. (1): pp. 124 - 132 "Visual language is one of the more promising avenues to the improvement of human performance in the short run (the next 10 to 15 years) (Horn 2000b, 2000c). The current situation is one of considerable diversity and confusion as a new form of communication arises. But visual language also represents many great opportunities. People think visually. People think in language. When words and visual elements are closely intertwined, we create something new and we augment our communal intelligence. Today, human beings work and think in fragmented ways, but visual language has the potential to integrate our existing skills to make them tremendously more effective. With support from developments in information technology, visual language has the potential for increasing human “bandwidth,“ the capacity to take in, comprehend, and more efficiently synthesize large amounts of new information. It has this capacity on the individual, group, and organizational levels. As this convergence occurs, visual language will enhance our ability to communicate, teach, and work in fields such as nanotechnology and biotechnology." ... ... "There are several key advantages of the emerging visual-verbal language: a) It facilitates representation. This new language facilitates presentation of complex, multidimensional visual-verbal thought, and — with multimedia tools — can incorporate animation, as well. Researchers and scholars are no longer constrained by the scroll-like thinking of endless paragraphs of text. i) It facilitates big, complex thoughts. Human cognitive effectiveness and efficiency is constrained by the well-known limitations of working memory that George Miller identified in 1957 (Miller 1957). Large visual displays have for some time been known to help us overcome this bandwidth constraint. But only since the recent advances in visual language have we been able to imagine a major prosthesis for this human limitation. The prosthesis consists of a suite of visual language maps. This visual-verbal language (together with computer-based tools) may eliminate the major roadblocks to thinking and communicating big, complex thoughts, i.e., the problem of representing and communicating mental models of these thoughts efficiently and effectively. This especially includes the so-called “messy” (or “wicked” or “ill-structured”) problems (Horn 2001a). Problems have straightforward solutions; messy problems do not. They are * more than complicated and complex; they are ambiguous * filled with considerable uncertainty — even as to what the conditions are, let alone what the appropriate actions might be * bounded by great constraints and tightly interconnected economically, socially, politically, and technologically * seen differently from different points of view and quite different worldviews * comprised of many value conflicts * often alogical or illogical. These kinds of problems are among the most pressing for our country, for the advancement of civilization, and for humanity; hence, the promise of better representation and communication of complex ideas using visual-verbal language constructs has added significance. Premises Regarding Visual Language "A deep understanding of the patterns of visual language will permit • more rapid, more effective interdisciplinary communication • more complex thinking, leading to a new era of thought • facilitation of business, government, scientific, and technical productivity • potential breakthroughs in education and training productivity • greater efficiency and effectiveness in all areas of knowledge production and distribution • better cross-cultural communication" Readiness for Major Research and Development "A number of major jumping-off research platforms have already been created for the rapid future development of visual language: the Web; the ability to tag content with XML; database software; drawing software; a fully tested, widely used content-organizing and tagging system of structured writing known as Information Mapping® (Horn 1989); and a growing, systematic understanding of the patterns of visual-verbal language (Kosslyn 1989, 1994; McCloud 1993; Horton 1991; Bertin 1983)." Rationale for the Visual Language Projects "A virtual superhighway for rapid development in visual language can be opened, and the goals listed above in the premises can be accomplished, if sufficient funds over the next 15 years are applied to the creation of tools, techniques, and taxonomies, and to systematically conducting empirical research on effectiveness and efficiency of components, syntax, semantics, and pragmatics of this language. These developments, in turn, will aid the synergy produced in the convergence of biotechnology, nanotechnology, information technology, and cognitive science." Goals of a Visual-Verbal Language Research Program "A research program requires both bold, general goals and specific landmarks along the way. A major effort to deal with the problem of increasing complexity and the limitations of our human cognitive abilities would benefit all human endeavors and could easily be focused on biotechnology and nanotechnology as prototype test beds. We can contemplate, thus, the steady, incremental achievement of the following goals as a realistic result of a major visual language program: 1 .Provide policymakers with comprehensive visual-verbal models. The combination of the ability to represent complex mental models and the ability to collect realtime data will provide sophisticated decision-making tools for social policy. Highly visual cognitive maps will facilitate the management of and navigation through major public policy issues. These maps provide patterned abstractions of policy landscapes that permit the decisionmakers and their advisors to consider which roads to take within the wider policy context. Like the hundreds of different projections of geographic maps (e.g., polar or Mercator), they provide different ways of viewing issues and their backgrounds. They enable policymakers to drill down to the appropriate level of detail. In short, they provide an invaluable information management tool. 2. Provide world-class, worldwide education for children. Our children will inherit the results of this research. It is imperative that they receive the increased benefits of visual language communication research as soon as it is developed. The continued growth of the Internet and the convergence of intelligent visual-verbal representation of mental models and computer-enhanced tutoring programs will enable children everywhere to learn the content and skills needed to live in the 21 century. But this will take place only if these advances are incorporated into educational programs as soon as they are developed. 3. Achieved large breakthroughs in scientific research. The convergence of more competent computers, computer-based collaborative tools, visual representation breakthroughs, and large databases provided by sensors will enable major improvements in scientific research. Many of the advances that we can imagine will come from interdisciplinary teams of scientists, engineers, and technicians who will need to become familiar rapidly with fields that are outside of their backgrounds and competencies. Visual language resources (such as the diagram project described below) will be required at all levels to make this cross-disciplinary learning possible. This could be the single most important factor in increasing the effectiveness of nano-bio-info teams working together at their various points of convergence. 4. Enrich the art of the 21 century. Human beings do not live by information alone. We make meaning with our entire beings: emotional, kinesthetic, and somatic. Visual art has always fed the human spirit in this respect. And we can confidently predict that artistic communication and aesthetic enjoyment in the 21 century will be enhanced significantly by the scientific and technical developments in visual language. Dynamic visual-verbal murals and art pieces will become one of the predominant contemporary art forms of the century, as such complex, intense representation of meaning joins abstract and expressionistic art as a major artistic genre. This has already begun to happen, with artists creating the first generation of large visual language murals (Horn 2000). 5. Develop smart, visual-verbal thought software. The convergence of massive computing power, thorough mapping of visual-verbal language patterns, and advances in other branches of cognitive science will provide for an evolutionary leap in capacity and in multidimensionality of thought processes. Scientific visualization software in the past 15 years has led the way in demonstrating the necessity of visualization in the scientific process. We could not have made advances in scientific understanding in many fields without software that helps us convert “firehoses of data“ (in the vivid metaphor of the 1987 National Science Foundation report on scientific visualization) into visually comprehensible depictions of quantitative phenomena and simulations. Similarly, every scientific field is overwhelmed with tsunamis of new qualitative concepts, procedures, techniques, and tools. Visual language offers the most immediate way to address these new, highly demanding requirements. 6. Open wide the doors of creativity. Visualization in scientific creativity has been frequently cited. Einstein often spoke of using visualization on his gedanken experiments. He saw in his imagination first and created equations later. This is a common occurrence for scientists, even those without special training. Visual-verbal expression will facilitate new ways of thinking about human problems, dilemmas, predicaments, emotions, tragedy, and comedy. “The limits of my language are the limits of my world,” said Wittgenstein. But it is in the very nature of creativity for us to be unable to specify what the limits will be. Indeed, it is not always possible to identify the limits of our worlds until some creative scientist has stepped across the limit and illuminated it from the other side. Researchers in biotechnology and nanotechnology will not have to wait for the final achievement of these goals to begin to benefit from advances in visual language research and development. Policymakers, researchers, and scholars will be confronting many scientific, social, ethical, and organizational issues; each leap in our understanding and competence in visual language will increase our ability to deal with these kinds of complex issues. As the language advances in its ability to handle complex representation and communication, each advance can be widely disseminated because of the modular nature of the technology." Major Objectives Towards Meeting Overall Goals of Visual-Verbal Language Research "The achievement of the six goals described above will obviously require intermediate advances on a number of fronts to achieve specific objectives: 1. Diagram an entire branch of science with stand-alone diagrams. 2. Create “periodic” table(s) of types of stand-alone diagrams. 3. Automatically create diagrams from text. 4. Launch a project to map the human cognome. 5. Create tools for collaborative mental models based on diagramming. "Ability to come to rapid agreement at various stages of group analysis and decision-making with support from complex, multidimensional, visual-verbal murals is becoming a central component of effective organizations. This collaborative problem-solving, perhaps first envisioned by Douglas Engelbart (1962) as augmenting human intellect, has launched a vibrant new field of computer-supported collaborative work (CSCW). The CSCW community has been facilitating virtual teams working around the globe on the same project in a 24/7 asynchronous timeframe. Integration of (1) the resources of visual language display, (2) both visual display hardware and software, and (3) the interactive potential of CSCW offers possibilities of great leaps forward in group efficiency and effectiveness." 6. Crack the unique address dilemma with fuzzy ontologies. "The semantic web project is proceeding on the basis of creating unique addresses for individual chunks of knowledge. Researchers are struggling to create “ontologies,” by which they mean hierarchical category schemes, similar to the Dewey system in libraries. But researchers haven’t yet figured out really good ways to handle the fact that most words have multiple meanings. There has been quite a bit of progress in resolving such ambiguities in machine language translation, so there is hope for further incremental progress and major breakthroughs. An important goal for cognitive scientists will be to produce breakthroughs for managing the multiple and changing meanings of visual-verbal communication units on the Web in real time." 7. Understand computerized visual-verbal linkages. 8. Crack the “context“ problem. Conclusion "It is essential to the accelerating research in the fields of nanotechnology, biotechnology, information technology, and cognitive science that we increase our understanding of visual language. In the next decade, we must develop visual language research centers, fund individual researchers, and ensure that these developments are rapidly integrated into education and into the support of the other converging technologies." ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 12 17:29:00 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9CDDC57003; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:28:59 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4630E57002 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:28:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14338 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8D0kxi17028 for ; Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D8135B6.136473F0@sun.com> Date: Thu, 12 Sep 2002 17:47:50 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Would you believe, KM in a box? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org "Lotus products strategically fit together to help you leverage the value of your messaging infrastructure..." http://www.lotus.com/lotus/km.nsf/wdocs/home From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 13 03:03:37 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D4FB957003; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 03:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mailone.kub.nl (mailone.kub.nl [137.56.0.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CE15957002 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 03:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from prefix1 (prefix1.kub.nl [137.56.0.78]) by mailone.kub.nl (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8DALXsc011847 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT) for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:21:33 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 12:21:32 +0200 (MET DST) From: Aldo de Moor X-X-Sender: ademoor@prefix1 To: ba Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: A War Based on Rumors] In-Reply-To: <3D81000F.9030605@rcn.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.4 required=5.0 X-Spam-Level: X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-milter (http://amavis.org/) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Thu, 12 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote: > Excerpts from Eli Pariser's post to MoveOn.Org 9/12/02 [...] > Where's the beef? Where's the evidence of clear and present danger? > What happened to Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda? > If our allies don't support this, are we going ahead or not? > Who's going to pick up the pieces in Iraq? > Why now, right before the election? > How many lives will be lost? How much money will be spent? > What are the alternatives? There was an interesting article today in De Volkskrant, a national Dutch newspaper, by Paul Rosemoeller and Joost Lagendijk, members of Dutch and European Parliament, respectively. It contained an intelligent proposal for a reform of the role the EU is to play on the world stage. Some excerpts [my translation]: --- "Also after ousting Bin Laden and mullah Omar, the Bush administration expressed little compassion with the Afghan people. 'We don't clean the windows' is the contemptuous reply to critics who stress that a long-term international involvement is necessary to prevent the country from sliding back into civil war and becoming once again a sanctuary for terrorists. [...] After 9/11 the difference between American and European concept of security has developed into a painful contrast. The obsession with its own vulnerability feeds in Washington a policy of unilateralism, intimidation and sabre-rattling. [...] Europe, on the other hand, [...] wants not the right of the strongest to be decisive in the resolution of international conflicts, but rules, deliberation, and law. Strengthening international law and spreading democratic practices, make, from a European perspective, an essential contribution to its own security. Europeans are prepared to pay a price: transferring national sovereignty. For American neo-conservatives, however, the idea of international organizations overruling national democratic institutions, is unacceptable. [...] We think that, more than ever, it is time for Europe to become a self-assured superpower. Not a military, but a civil one. The activities which have united the EU-countries into the largest economic block in the world - negotiating, trading, helping the weak - should also be their external strength: diplomacy, economic trade or pressure. [...] Also as a civil superpower the EU needs effective military instruments. [...] Europe needs the military power of the US if conflicts get out of hand. The US, however, need Europe to prevent conflicts from getting out of hand. This leads to a sensible transatlantic division of tasks." --- There are some interesting thoughts here: two subsystems, a military and a civil one, co-dependent, working in unison to prevent, dampen, and resolve international conflicts. Of course, this view is exaggerated, each block needs to pay attention to both types of aspects. The very fact that Europe was reluctant to use military force in ending the conflict in Yugoslavia has led to much unnecessary bloodshed. On the other hand, the outright dismissal of serious diplomatic options by the US may lead to another senseless war in Iraq, which could have been prevented. It may be true that a balanced transatlantic system consisting of a specialized American military and a European diplomatic subsystem, may make the world as a whole much safer. Intelligent and respectful discussion and negotiation, rather than expressions of brute force and arrogance, is essential however, for such a system to evolve. Aldo ========================================================================== ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor Dr. Aldo de Moor Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands ========================================================================== From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 13 07:02:35 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EA05957004; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A87157003 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jack ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020913142040.LEDX23613.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@jack> for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 14:20:40 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20020913071900.00add9a0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 07:19:38 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Comprehension <==> Action (1) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: elohimjl > >SYSTEMS THINKING, CYBERNETIC INTERACTIONS, INFORMATION OF REAL CONCERNS, >ORGANIZATIONAL STUDIES, HUMAN-NATURE RESEARCH,... are indeed useful tools >for allowing every human to organize better her or his performance. > >WHAT FOR? > >"Bertalanffy advocated that we dare to broaden our loyalty from nation to >globe. He urged that we become patriots of the planet, endeavoring to >think and act primarily as members of humanity. Without necessarily >diluting our own individual and cultural identity, he said, we must begin >protecting the individual and cultural identity of others. He urged that >we begin pledging our allegiance to humanity and to the earth on which we >stand, one planet indivisible or not planet at all. > >In his call for a universal declaration of interdependence, he advocated a >new global morality: "an ethos which does not center on individual good >and individual value alone, but on the adaptation of mankind as a global >system, to its new environment". The need for this new morality, he said >was imperative: "We are dealing with emergent realities; no longer with >isolated groups of men, but with a systematically interdependent global >community. It is this level of [reality] which we must keep before our >eyes if we are able to inspire large-scale action designed to assure our >collective and hence our individual survival" (*) > >Today in the September 2002 it seems valid to argue that SYSTEMS THINKING, >CYBERNETIC INTERACTIONS, INFORMATION OF REAL CONCERNS, ORGANIZATIONAL >STUDIES, HUMAN-NATURE RESEARCH,... may contribute to develop a SCIENCE FOR >WOMEN AND MEN if and only if every human being makes up her or his mind to >learn continuously what would be the role of every human (individually and >collectively on Earth. > >And just immediately, though I dare to wonder whether it is still possible >to stop the emergence of the first World War of our 21st century. > >"Confronted with a variety of competing ideologies and value-systems, the >scientist. in order to be consistent with himself, cannot remain neutral. >As Dr. Anatol Rapoport says, "different men want to go in different >directions, and some of these directions are incompatible with the >direction inherent in science itself " >Therefore, "the scientist must subscribe to certain values (and discard >others) not because he is a 'good citizen' or a product of a [particular] >culture or a member of a [particular] church, but because he is a >scientist" (#) > >elohimjl > >(*) Uncommon Sense. The Life & Thought of Ludwig von Bertalanffy. Father >of General Systems Theory. Mark Davidson, 1983 > >(#) Foreword written by S. I. Hayakawa for SCIENCE and the GOALS of MAN, A >Study of Semantic Orientation. Anatol Rapoport, 1950 > >>From: (A.N.S.W.E.R.) >>Subject: [ANSWER]: ENDORSE the Oct. 26 Nat'l March in Washington DC >>Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2002 14:52:10 -0400 >> >> >>OCTOBER 26 >>NATIONAL MARCH on WASHINGTON DC >>with a joint action in San Francisco >>to STOP THE WAR ON IRAQ BEFORE IT STARTS! >> >>*** To ENDORSE the Call to Action, go to >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o26/o26endorse.html#endo >> >>The Bush administration is rushing towards war. The time to act is now. >>The people of the United States can stop this madness. >> >>World public opinion and almost every government opposes Bush's planned >>war of aggression. But it will take a mass peoples' movement--in the >>streets, workplaces, communities, campuses and high schools--to stop the >>coming war. >> >>On Saturday, October 26, 2002 -- the first anniversary of the signing of >>the so-called Patriot Act -- anti-war, civil rights, labor, student and >>other forces are joining together to launch a massive international >>mobilization in opposition to a new war against the people of Iraq. Mass >>marches and rallies will be held in Washington DC and San Francisco in >>the U.S., and in many other countries. >> >>As the Bush administration violates international law it has been >>systematically engaged in a campaign of division and repression in the >>United States including a wholesale assault on the Bill of Rights, >>institutionalization of racial profiling, and aggregation of near >>dictatorial powers to the Executive branch. >> >>In articulating the so-called doctrine of preemptive war, the Bush >>administration is preparing to violate all existing international law and >>the UN charter which forbids countries to carry out war except in the >>case of self-defense. Preemption is merely a slogan to justify a foreign >>policy of armed aggression and military adventure. >> >>Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and company are planning to send tens >>of thousands of young GIs to kill and be killed in another war for Big >>Oil. Simultaneously, the Bush Administration is diverting billions of >>dollars to feed military conquest and away from jobs, education, >>healthcare, childcare and housing. >> >>The so-called debate that is opening now to public view from within the >>political establishment presents a necessity for all anti-war forces to >>become a major factor in generating an authentic opposition to U.S. war >>plans in the Middle East. The October 26 National March in Washington DC >>and joint action in San Francisco come just one week before midterm >>Congressional elections. >>There won't be a real national debate on a planned invasion of Iraq until >>the people are in the streets. We can't leave it to the military >>establishment to decide when and how they will go to war and to define >>the debate. We must tell Bush and his corporate and Big Oil patrons that >>we will not allow this to happen. >> >>This war can be stopped. Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz and company >>can be stopped. But the essential element must be the mobilization of a >>massive new anti-war movement in the streets. We call for civilians and >>soldiers alike to exercise their political right to speak out against an >>illegal war. On October 26, there will be a National March in Washington >>DC, a West Coast march in San Francisco, and protests around the world. >> >>ONLY THE PEOPLE CAN STOP THE WAR! >>JOIN US ON OCTOBER 26, 2002! >> >>*** To ENDORSE the Call to Action, go to >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o26/o26endorse.html#endo >> >>*INITIATERS* >>- A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition >>- IFCO/Pastors for Peace >>- Free Palestine Alliance >>- Muslim Student Association >>- Partnership for Civil Justice - LDEF >>- Mexico Solidarity Network >>- Nicaragua Network >>- International Action Center >>- Kensington Welfare Rights Union >>- Middle East Children's Alliance >>- Bayan USA-International (Filipino community) >>- Korea Truth Commission >>- Muslim American Society Freedom Foundation >>- National Lawyers Guild >>- Dorothy Day Catholic Worker >>- Ramsey Clark, former U.S. attorney general >>- Bishop Thomas Gumbleton, Auxilliary Bishop, Catholic Archdiocese of Detroit >>*PARTIAL LIST of ENDORSERS* >>- San Francisco Labor Council (AFL-CIO) - Rev. Graylan Hagler, Senior >>Minister, Plymouth Congregational Church >>- Committee in Support of the Iraqi People >>- Network in Solidarity with the People of the Philippines (NISPOP) - >>Sudanese American Society >>- Congress for Korean Reunification - U.S.A >>- Campaign to End the Sanctions >>- The Network of Arab-American Alumni & Professionals, NY & FL >>- Chuck Turner, City Councilor, Boston, MA >>- College Voice, College of Staten Island, CUNY >>- Michigan State University Students for Economic Justice >>- Exploris Middle School United for Peace, NC >>- Michigan Emergency Committee Against War in Iraq >>- Committee to Protest War Against Iraq >>- Mid-Hudson National People's Campaign >>- The U.S. Greens Abroad >>- Gloria La Riva, President, Typographical Sector, Northern California >>Media Workers Union* >>- Leslie Feinberg, activist and author - Harlem Tenants Council >>- NJ Independent Alliance >>- Workers World Party >>- Coastal Convergence Society of Huntington Beach, California - Columbia >>Solidarity Committee, Chicago, IL - The United Peoples >>- Leftbooks.com >>- Turnwind, AZ >>- Vietnam Veterans Against the War Anti Imperialist National HQ >>- The Peace Coalition of Southern Illinois/Fellowship of Reconciliation >>- Maine Secessionist Movement >>- Revolution in Focus, Richmond, VA >>- First Congregational Church, UCC >>- Tabra International, CA >>- WESPAC (Westchester People's Action Coalition) - The Charlotte >>Fellowship of Reconciliation >>- Willco, South Africa >>- TEA Society (Society for Teaching Educational Activism), MO >>- Australian - Iraqi Friendship Association, Melbourne, Victoria >>- Grandmothers for a Just World, NC >>- Justice for Palestinians, CA >>- Vets Against War >>- Green Party of Chatham County >>- Instant Anti-War Action Group, VT >> >>*GROWING LIST of ENDORSERS* >>For the growing list of endorsers, go to >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o26/endorsers.html >> >>*** To ENDORSE the Call to Action, go to >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o26/o26endorse.html#endo >> >>******************** >> >>JOIN the CAMPAIGN to >>STOP THE WAR ON IRAQ BEFORE IT STARTS! >>*Below are several ways that you can get involved* >> >>BUSES, VANS and CAR CARAVANS are coming to DC from a growing list of cities: >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o26/index.html (updated >>frequently) >> >>If you are interested in ORGANIZING TRANSPORTATION FROM YOUR CITY, fill >>out the form at: >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/campaigns/o26/index.html#list >> >>Help get the word out! DOWNLOAD the FLYER at: >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/pdf/o2602flyer.pdf >> >>If you would like SPEAKERS on the history of the U.S./Iraq conflict at >>your high school, college, union, or community center, email >>dc@internationalanswer.org >> >>Make a TAX-DEDUCTIBLE DONATION to help stop the war before it starts: >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/donate.html >> >>If you are not on the A.N.S.W.E.R. EMAIL LISTSERVE (low volume), sign up >>today to receive updates on organizing and analysis of the Bush >>administration's war drive: >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/subscribelist.html >> >>For background information on U.S. war plans in Iraq, see the "Learn >>More" section at: >>http://www.internationalanswer.org/ >> >>FOR MORE INFORMATION: >>dc@internationalanswer.org >>New York 212-633-6646 >>Washington 202-332-5757 >>Chicago 773-878-0166 >>Los Angeles 213-487-2368 >>San Francisco 415-821-6545 >> >>------------------ >>Send replies to answer@action-mail.org >> >>This is the ANSWER activist announcement >>list. Anyone can subscribe by sending any message to >> >>To unsubscribe > >-- >elohimjl From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 13 16:16:04 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 94B3557008; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts9.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.53]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB1FD57007 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.176]) by tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020913233403.QSVQ10370.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:34:03 -0400 Message-ID: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:30:16 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------EE8CAC97F78B286DA4189A4C" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EE8CAC97F78B286DA4189A4C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy Network, www.wwdemocracy.org On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - otherwise I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good thing for small, grassroot organizations to team up. How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and internationally, etc. You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with an organization called Global Agoras, http://www.globalagoras.org/ The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at the issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. Henry --------------EE8CAC97F78B286DA4189A4C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from mrburns.nildram.co.uk ([195.112.4.54]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020913191144.NOJP16602.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@mrburns.nildram.co.uk> for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 15:11:44 -0400 Received: from wwdemocracy.org (pm4-1-9-113.dial.nildram.co.uk [195.149.1.113]) by mrburns.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF5B1E1A93; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:11:24 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D823886.4060102@wwdemocracy.org> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 From: John Turnbull User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020406070701010603000600" To: undisclosed-recipients:; X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 --------------020406070701010603000600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 WELCOME! CONTENTS 1. Introduction 2. WWDN news 3. Getting the WWDN up and running 4. WWDN's WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN's proposal to run a series of workshops (entitled 'Liberating Democratic Systems') at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January 2003). 1. INTRODUCTION The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing 'democratic' regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we currently have: Government OF - the people BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate capitalism To: Government OF - the people BY - thinking, acting and learning together FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is essentially one of mutual learning. For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org 2. WWDN NEWS Co-learners 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN's main aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press 'reply' (making sure not to reply to all) and type 'co-learner' in the subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . Network Associate John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN's open-source approach. The response to our request for participants has been very encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for political change and working towards a more just and sustainable future. (See above for instructions on registering). Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear from you. John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - "LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS" This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction the WWDN is taking. Summary In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet Jose Saramago issued a challenge: "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature until the end of time. "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide debate on democracy and the causes of its decline..." The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in January 2003, responds to Saramago's challenge through a programme of co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies be created? On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems of democracy itself." (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers Co-operative1974.) To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the '2002 Programme' section). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe you would be interested in the WWDN's work. If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. Please let us know if this happens. --------------020406070701010603000600 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003


WELCOME!


CONTENTS
  1. Introduction
  2. WWDN news
  3. Getting the WWDN up and running
  4. WWDN’s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN’s proposal to run a series of workshops (entitled ‘Liberating Democratic Systems’) at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January 2003).

1. INTRODUCTION

The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been set up to link people in a process of mutual learning.

Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing ‘democratic’ regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy.

To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we currently have:

Government
OF      - the people
BY      - interchangeable sets of political professionals
FOR    - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate capitalism

To:

Government
OF    - the people
BY    - thinking, acting and learning together
FOR  - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies

Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is essentially one of mutual learning.

For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 .

To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org


2. WWDN NEWS

Co-learners
55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN’s main aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press ‘reply’ (making sure not to reply to all) and type ‘co-learner’ in the subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org .

Network Associate
John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion forum and editing the quarterly newsletter.


3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING

We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN’s open-source approach.

The response to our request for participants has been very encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for political change and working towards a more just and sustainable future. (See above for instructions on registering).

Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear from you.

John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org )


4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM – “LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS”

This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction the WWDN is taking.

Summary

In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet Jose Saramago issued a challenge:

"Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature until the end of time.

"Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide debate on democracy and the causes of its decline…"


The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems.

WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in January 2003, responds to Saramago’s challenge through a programme of co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define:
  • precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and
  • what are the essential components of an alternative democratic system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies be created?
On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself.

To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies.  

"Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems of democracy itself."
(Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers  Co-operative1974.)  

To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the '2002 Programme' section).

We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe you would be interested in the WWDN's work.

If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to this message with 'STOP' in the subject field.

We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. Please let us know if this happens.
--------------020406070701010603000600-- --------------EE8CAC97F78B286DA4189A4C-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 13 16:22:14 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 73F2357009; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0F11B57008 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16501 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 17:40:14 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8DNeEi08433 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:41:07 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by kathmandu.sun.com id RAA16501 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an eventual testing ground for the project. Henry K van Eyken wrote: > I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner > -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, > London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy > Network, > > www.wwdemocracy.org > > On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - > otherwise > I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good > thing > for small, grassroot organizations to team up. > > How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and > internationally, etc. > > You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with > an > organization called Global Agoras, > > http://www.globalagoras.org/ > > The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some > people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at > the > issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded > organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. > > Henry > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 > From: John Turnbull > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 > > > WELCOME! > > > CONTENTS > > 1. Introduction > 2. WWDN news > 3. Getting the WWDN up and running > 4. WWDN=92s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN=92s proposal to = run > a series of workshops (entitled =91Liberating Democratic Systems=92= ) > at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January > 2003). > > > 1. INTRODUCTION > > The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been > set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. > > Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global > problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and > societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing > =91democratic=92 regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a > totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth > coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to > rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a > just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. > > To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we > currently have: > > Government > OF - the people > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational > corporate capitalism > > To: > > Government > OF - the people > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes > the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed > in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing > about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is > essentially one of mutual learning. > > For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please > see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . > > To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions > (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your > name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, > occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) > Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org > > > 2. WWDN NEWS > > Co-learners > 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN=92s main > aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations > interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all > levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press > =91reply=92 (making sure not to reply to all) and type =91co-learner=92= in the > subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . > > Network Associate > John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. > Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will > be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, > including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion > forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. > > > 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING > > We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the > Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical > issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we > have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the > WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN=92s open-source > approach. > > The response to our request for participants has been very > encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, > including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this > kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to > anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for > political change and working towards a more just and sustainable > future. (See above for instructions on registering). > > Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we > can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many > languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking > translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear > from you. > > John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) > > > 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM =96 > =93LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS=94 > > This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are > hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The > proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be > accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction > the WWDN is taking. > > Summary > > In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in > Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet > Jose Saramago issued a challenge: > > "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, > from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment > to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as > if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature > until the end of time. > > "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or > indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide > debate on democracy and the causes of its decline=85" > > The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the > in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. > > WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in > January 2003, responds to Saramago=92s challenge through a programme of > co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: > > * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are > defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and > * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic > system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the > whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the > nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and > people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies > be created? > > On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, > WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking > dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of > coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical > dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget > processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and > especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. > > To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose > Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed > at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to > remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. > > "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on > the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of > their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems > of democracy itself." > (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao > Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers > Co-operative1974.) > > To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the > '2002 Programme' section). > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because > you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe > you would be interested in the WWDN's work. > > If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to > this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. > > We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. > Please let us know if this happens. > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 13 18:19:01 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D39A757008; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.189]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 31DD156FF3 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 18:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.234.160]) by tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020914013701.MXSD21425.tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:37:01 -0400 Message-ID: <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:33:15 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric. Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? Henry Eric Armstrong wrote: > Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high > priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an > eventual testing ground for the project. > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner > > -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, > > London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy > > Network, > > > > www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - > > otherwise > > I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good > > thing > > for small, grassroot organizations to team up. > > > > How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and > > internationally, etc. > > > > You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with > > an > > organization called Global Agoras, > > > > http://www.globalagoras.org/ > > > > The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some > > people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at > > the > > issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded > > organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 > > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 > > From: John Turnbull > > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > > WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 > > > > > > WELCOME! > > > > > > CONTENTS > > > > 1. Introduction > > 2. WWDN news > > 3. Getting the WWDN up and running > > 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run > > a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?) > > at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January > > 2003). > > > > > > 1. INTRODUCTION > > > > The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been > > set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. > > > > Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global > > problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and > > societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing > > ?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a > > totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth > > coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to > > rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a > > just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. > > > > To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we > > currently have: > > > > Government > > OF - the people > > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational > > corporate capitalism > > > > To: > > > > Government > > OF - the people > > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > > > Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes > > the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed > > in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing > > about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is > > essentially one of mutual learning. > > > > For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please > > see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . > > > > To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions > > (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your > > name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, > > occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) > > Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > 2. WWDN NEWS > > > > Co-learners > > 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main > > aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations > > interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all > > levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press > > ?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the > > subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . > > > > Network Associate > > John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. > > Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will > > be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, > > including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion > > forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. > > > > > > 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING > > > > We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the > > Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical > > issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we > > have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the > > WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux > > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source > > approach. > > > > The response to our request for participants has been very > > encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, > > including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this > > kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to > > anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for > > political change and working towards a more just and sustainable > > future. (See above for instructions on registering). > > > > Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we > > can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many > > languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking > > translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear > > from you. > > > > John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) > > > > > > 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - > > ?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS? > > > > This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are > > hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The > > proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be > > accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction > > the WWDN is taking. > > > > Summary > > > > In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in > > Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet > > Jose Saramago issued a challenge: > > > > "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, > > from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment > > to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as > > if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature > > until the end of time. > > > > "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or > > indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide > > debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?" > > > > The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the > > in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. > > > > WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in > > January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of > > co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: > > > > * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are > > defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and > > * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic > > system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the > > whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the > > nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and > > people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies > > be created? > > > > On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, > > WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking > > dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of > > coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical > > dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget > > processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and > > especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. > > > > To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose > > Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed > > at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to > > remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. > > > > "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on > > the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of > > their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems > > of democracy itself." > > (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao > > Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers > > Co-operative1974.) > > > > To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the > > '2002 Programme' section). > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because > > you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe > > you would be interested in the WWDN's work. > > > > If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to > > this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. > > > > We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. > > Please let us know if this happens. > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 13 19:18:53 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1465B57008; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9B8E356FF3 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21251 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:36:54 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8E2ari06989 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D82A0FB.B15EC831@sun.com> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 19:37:47 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal. If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such organizations as interested in it, that might well make the project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that individual countries might want to contribute to, as well. Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough. (Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately, one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding political ideals...) Henry K van Eyken wrote: > Eric. > > Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does > have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? > > Henry > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high > > priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an > > eventual testing ground for the project. > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner > > > -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, > > > London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy > > > Network, > > > > > > www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - > > > otherwise > > > I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good > > > thing > > > for small, grassroot organizations to team up. > > > > > > How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and > > > internationally, etc. > > > > > > You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with > > > an > > > organization called Global Agoras, > > > > > > http://www.globalagoras.org/ > > > > > > The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some > > > people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at > > > the > > > issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded > > > organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 > > > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 > > > From: John Turnbull > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > > > WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 > > > > > > > > > WELCOME! > > > > > > > > > CONTENTS > > > > > > 1. Introduction > > > 2. WWDN news > > > 3. Getting the WWDN up and running > > > 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run > > > a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?) > > > at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January > > > 2003). > > > > > > > > > 1. INTRODUCTION > > > > > > The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been > > > set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. > > > > > > Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global > > > problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and > > > societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing > > > ?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a > > > totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth > > > coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to > > > rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a > > > just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. > > > > > > To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we > > > currently have: > > > > > > Government > > > OF - the people > > > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > > > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational > > > corporate capitalism > > > > > > To: > > > > > > Government > > > OF - the people > > > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > > > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > > > > > Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes > > > the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed > > > in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing > > > about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is > > > essentially one of mutual learning. > > > > > > For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please > > > see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . > > > > > > To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions > > > (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your > > > name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, > > > occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) > > > Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > 2. WWDN NEWS > > > > > > Co-learners > > > 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main > > > aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations > > > interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all > > > levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press > > > ?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the > > > subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . > > > > > > Network Associate > > > John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. > > > Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will > > > be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, > > > including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion > > > forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. > > > > > > > > > 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING > > > > > > We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the > > > Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical > > > issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we > > > have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the > > > WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux > > > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source > > > approach. > > > > > > The response to our request for participants has been very > > > encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, > > > including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this > > > kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to > > > anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for > > > political change and working towards a more just and sustainable > > > future. (See above for instructions on registering). > > > > > > Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we > > > can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many > > > languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking > > > translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear > > > from you. > > > > > > John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) > > > > > > > > > 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - > > > ?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS? > > > > > > This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are > > > hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The > > > proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be > > > accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction > > > the WWDN is taking. > > > > > > Summary > > > > > > In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in > > > Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet > > > Jose Saramago issued a challenge: > > > > > > "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, > > > from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment > > > to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as > > > if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature > > > until the end of time. > > > > > > "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or > > > indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide > > > debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?" > > > > > > The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the > > > in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. > > > > > > WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in > > > January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of > > > co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: > > > > > > * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are > > > defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and > > > * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic > > > system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the > > > whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the > > > nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and > > > people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies > > > be created? > > > > > > On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, > > > WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking > > > dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of > > > coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical > > > dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget > > > processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and > > > especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. > > > > > > To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose > > > Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed > > > at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to > > > remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. > > > > > > "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on > > > the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of > > > their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems > > > of democracy itself." > > > (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao > > > Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers > > > Co-operative1974.) > > > > > > To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the > > > '2002 Programme' section). > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because > > > you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe > > > you would be interested in the WWDN's work. > > > > > > If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to > > > this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. > > > > > > We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. > > > Please let us know if this happens. > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 13 21:11:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1459F57008; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:11:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts10.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.54]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 70E0356FF3 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2002 21:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.168]) by tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020914042944.GDBZ10755.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:29:44 -0400 Message-ID: <3D82BA55.E39E2B14@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:25:57 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> <3D82A0FB.B15EC831@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric. They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to wade through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative aspects within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly Fleabyte's - a principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to facilitate by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means for becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen. Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the co-operative aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the WWDN process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping important aspects of democratic processes and structures. Here I see the complementary aspect. Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for effectively doing our bit in this complementarity? How would we handle things? Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly supported agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered effort and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort might be molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It may be from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go after the kind of financing you talked about. Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global Agora. I do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with his eyes right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here. Henry Henry Eric Armstrong wrote: > Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal. > > If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such > organizations as interested in it, that might well make the > project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that > individual countries might want to contribute to, as well. > > Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough. > > (Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately, > one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding > political ideals...) > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > Eric. > > > > Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does > > have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? > > > > Henry > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high > > > priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an > > > eventual testing ground for the project. > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > > > I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner > > > > -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, > > > > London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy > > > > Network, > > > > > > > > www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - > > > > otherwise > > > > I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good > > > > thing > > > > for small, grassroot organizations to team up. > > > > > > > > How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and > > > > internationally, etc. > > > > > > > > You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with > > > > an > > > > organization called Global Agoras, > > > > > > > > http://www.globalagoras.org/ > > > > > > > > The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some > > > > people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at > > > > the > > > > issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded > > > > organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 > > > > From: John Turnbull > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > > > > WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 > > > > > > > > > > > > WELCOME! > > > > > > > > > > > > CONTENTS > > > > > > > > 1. Introduction > > > > 2. WWDN news > > > > 3. Getting the WWDN up and running > > > > 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run > > > > a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?) > > > > at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January > > > > 2003). > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. INTRODUCTION > > > > > > > > The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been > > > > set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global > > > > problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and > > > > societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing > > > > ?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a > > > > totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth > > > > coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to > > > > rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a > > > > just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. > > > > > > > > To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we > > > > currently have: > > > > > > > > Government > > > > OF - the people > > > > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > > > > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational > > > > corporate capitalism > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > Government > > > > OF - the people > > > > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > > > > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > > > > > > > Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes > > > > the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed > > > > in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing > > > > about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is > > > > essentially one of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please > > > > see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . > > > > > > > > To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions > > > > (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your > > > > name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, > > > > occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) > > > > Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. WWDN NEWS > > > > > > > > Co-learners > > > > 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main > > > > aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations > > > > interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all > > > > levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press > > > > ?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the > > > > subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . > > > > > > > > Network Associate > > > > John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. > > > > Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will > > > > be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, > > > > including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion > > > > forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING > > > > > > > > We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the > > > > Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical > > > > issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we > > > > have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the > > > > WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux > > > > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > The response to our request for participants has been very > > > > encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, > > > > including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this > > > > kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to > > > > anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for > > > > political change and working towards a more just and sustainable > > > > future. (See above for instructions on registering). > > > > > > > > Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we > > > > can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many > > > > languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking > > > > translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear > > > > from you. > > > > > > > > John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - > > > > ?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS? > > > > > > > > This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are > > > > hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The > > > > proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be > > > > accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction > > > > the WWDN is taking. > > > > > > > > Summary > > > > > > > > In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in > > > > Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet > > > > Jose Saramago issued a challenge: > > > > > > > > "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, > > > > from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment > > > > to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as > > > > if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature > > > > until the end of time. > > > > > > > > "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or > > > > indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide > > > > debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?" > > > > > > > > The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the > > > > in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. > > > > > > > > WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in > > > > January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of > > > > co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: > > > > > > > > * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are > > > > defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and > > > > * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic > > > > system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the > > > > whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the > > > > nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and > > > > people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies > > > > be created? > > > > > > > > On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, > > > > WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking > > > > dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of > > > > coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical > > > > dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget > > > > processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and > > > > especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. > > > > > > > > To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose > > > > Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed > > > > at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to > > > > remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. > > > > > > > > "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on > > > > the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of > > > > their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems > > > > of democracy itself." > > > > (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao > > > > Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers > > > > Co-operative1974.) > > > > > > > > To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the > > > > '2002 Programme' section). > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because > > > > you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe > > > > you would be interested in the WWDN's work. > > > > > > > > If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to > > > > this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. > > > > > > > > We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. > > > > Please let us know if this happens. > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 00:45:20 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7B4A75700A; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from imailg3.svr.pol.co.uk (imailg3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.181]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F9E657009 for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 00:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-970.charmander.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.77.202] helo=vaio) by imailg3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17q7tb-0006UQ-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:03:16 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c25bc4$d3d403c0$ca4d87d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> <3D82A0FB.B15EC831@sun.com> <3D82BA55.E39E2B14@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:00:42 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I have attempted to sign up as a 'co-learner' with the WWDN in order to find out more. They seem nascent. Reading the material on their website they certainly don't have the same type of Northern hemisphere PhDs adorning their web pages as at globalagoras (which might not be a bad thing), and their approach to leadership seems much more like concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with the agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned. That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the necessary leverage to set things rolling though. Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation, pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any technology beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the high-tech, armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values more firmly. I think there might be opportunities for bootstrap-type tools in that mix though (on the assumption that the Brazilians don't already have their own - which they might, as they seem pretty fired up). -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry K van Eyken" To: Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:25 AM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] > Eric. > > They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to wade > through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a > discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative aspects > within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly Fleabyte's - a > principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to facilitate > by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means for > becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen. > Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the co-operative > aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the WWDN > process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping important > aspects of democratic processes and structures. Here I see the complementary > aspect. > > Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for > effectively doing our bit in this complementarity? How would we handle things? > Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly supported > agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered effort > and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort might be > molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It may be > from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go after > the kind of financing you talked about. > > Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global Agora. I > do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with his eyes > right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here. > > Henry > > > Henry > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal. > > > > If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such > > organizations as interested in it, that might well make the > > project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that > > individual countries might want to contribute to, as well. > > > > Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough. > > > > (Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately, > > one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding > > political ideals...) > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > Eric. > > > > > > Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does > > > have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > > > Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high > > > > priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an > > > > eventual testing ground for the project. > > > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > > > > > I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner > > > > > -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, > > > > > London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy > > > > > Network, > > > > > > > > > > www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > > On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - > > > > > otherwise > > > > > I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good > > > > > thing > > > > > for small, grassroot organizations to team up. > > > > > > > > > > How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and > > > > > internationally, etc. > > > > > > > > > > You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with > > > > > an > > > > > organization called Global Agoras, > > > > > > > > > > http://www.globalagoras.org/ > > > > > > > > > > The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some > > > > > people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at > > > > > the > > > > > issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded > > > > > organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 > > > > > From: John Turnbull > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > > > > > WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WELCOME! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CONTENTS > > > > > > > > > > 1. Introduction > > > > > 2. WWDN news > > > > > 3. Getting the WWDN up and running > > > > > 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run > > > > > a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?) > > > > > at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January > > > > > 2003). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. INTRODUCTION > > > > > > > > > > The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been > > > > > set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > > > Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global > > > > > problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and > > > > > societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing > > > > > ?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a > > > > > totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth > > > > > coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to > > > > > rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a > > > > > just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. > > > > > > > > > > To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we > > > > > currently have: > > > > > > > > > > Government > > > > > OF - the people > > > > > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > > > > > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational > > > > > corporate capitalism > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > Government > > > > > OF - the people > > > > > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > > > > > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > > > > > > > > > Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes > > > > > the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed > > > > > in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing > > > > > about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is > > > > > essentially one of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please > > > > > see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . > > > > > > > > > > To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions > > > > > (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your > > > > > name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, > > > > > occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) > > > > > Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. WWDN NEWS > > > > > > > > > > Co-learners > > > > > 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main > > > > > aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations > > > > > interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all > > > > > levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press > > > > > ?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the > > > > > subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . > > > > > > > > > > Network Associate > > > > > John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. > > > > > Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will > > > > > be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, > > > > > including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion > > > > > forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING > > > > > > > > > > We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the > > > > > Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical > > > > > issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we > > > > > have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the > > > > > WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux > > > > > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > The response to our request for participants has been very > > > > > encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, > > > > > including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this > > > > > kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to > > > > > anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for > > > > > political change and working towards a more just and sustainable > > > > > future. (See above for instructions on registering). > > > > > > > > > > Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we > > > > > can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many > > > > > languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking > > > > > translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear > > > > > from you. > > > > > > > > > > John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - > > > > > ?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS? > > > > > > > > > > This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are > > > > > hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The > > > > > proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be > > > > > accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction > > > > > the WWDN is taking. > > > > > > > > > > Summary > > > > > > > > > > In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in > > > > > Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet > > > > > Jose Saramago issued a challenge: > > > > > > > > > > "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, > > > > > from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment > > > > > to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as > > > > > if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature > > > > > until the end of time. > > > > > > > > > > "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or > > > > > indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide > > > > > debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?" > > > > > > > > > > The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the > > > > > in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. > > > > > > > > > > WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in > > > > > January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of > > > > > co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: > > > > > > > > > > * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are > > > > > defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and > > > > > * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic > > > > > system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the > > > > > whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the > > > > > nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and > > > > > people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies > > > > > be created? > > > > > > > > > > On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, > > > > > WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking > > > > > dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of > > > > > coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical > > > > > dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget > > > > > processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and > > > > > especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. > > > > > > > > > > To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose > > > > > Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed > > > > > at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to > > > > > remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. > > > > > > > > > > "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on > > > > > the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of > > > > > their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems > > > > > of democracy itself." > > > > > (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao > > > > > Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers > > > > > Co-operative1974.) > > > > > > > > > > To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the > > > > > '2002 Programme' section). > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because > > > > > you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe > > > > > you would be interested in the WWDN's work. > > > > > > > > > > If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to > > > > > this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. > > > > > > > > > > We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. > > > > > Please let us know if this happens. > > > > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 03:59:58 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 466A45700B; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 03:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts15.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.3]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9EE4A5700A for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 03:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.151]) by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020914111759.SYUE12486.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 07:17:59 -0400 Message-ID: <3D831A03.A30921E5@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 07:14:11 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> <3D82A0FB.B15EC831@sun.com> <3D82BA55.E39E2B14@sympatico.ca> <001601c25bc4$d3d403c0$ca4d87d9@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Peter. Thanks for coming through with your quick evaluation. I am a little surprised by your their tech-phobia. Quoting the writer, John Turnbull, "We will also be migrating to the Linux operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN's open-source approach." They talk about wishing to change from: Government OF - the people BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate capitalism To: Government OF - the people BY - thinking, acting and learning together FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR" part, that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda. Myself, I like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says or writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it seems to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the word "corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker of certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word "sustainable," which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's) participation in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning whereas "growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of circumstance. But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to sustain mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through the week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different people as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is good. (If not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more discontent.) Maybe we should put the comments on on our own forum to groups such as the WWDN. In the meantime, your signing up as a learner is a good step. I appreciate that. Like to hear from some others. Henry Peter Jones wrote: > I have attempted to sign up as a 'co-learner' with the WWDN in order to find out > more. > They seem nascent. > Reading the material on their website they certainly don't have the same type of > Northern hemisphere PhDs adorning their web pages as at globalagoras (which > might not be a bad thing), and their approach to leadership seems much more like > concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with the > agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned. > That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the > necessary leverage to set things rolling though. > > Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation, > pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public > participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any technology > beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some > respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the high-tech, > armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of > direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values more > firmly. > > I think there might be opportunities for bootstrap-type tools in that mix though > (on the assumption that the Brazilians don't already have their own - which they > might, as they seem pretty fired up). > > -- > Peter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henry K van Eyken" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:25 AM > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] > > > Eric. > > > > They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to wade > > through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a > > discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative aspects > > within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly Fleabyte's - > a > > principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to > facilitate > > by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means for > > becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen. > > Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the co-operative > > aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the > WWDN > > process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping > important > > aspects of democratic processes and structures. Here I see the complementary > > aspect. > > > > Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for > > effectively doing our bit in this complementarity? How would we handle > things? > > Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly > supported > > agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered > effort > > and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort might be > > molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It may > be > > from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go after > > the kind of financing you talked about. > > > > Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global Agora. > I > > do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with his > eyes > > right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here. > > > > Henry > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal. > > > > > > If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such > > > organizations as interested in it, that might well make the > > > project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that > > > individual countries might want to contribute to, as well. > > > > > > Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough. > > > > > > (Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately, > > > one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding > > > political ideals...) > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > > > Eric. > > > > > > > > Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does > > > > have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > > > > > Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high > > > > > priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an > > > > > eventual testing ground for the project. > > > > > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner > > > > > > -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, > > > > > > London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy > > > > > > Network, > > > > > > > > > > > > www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > > > > On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - > > > > > > otherwise > > > > > > I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good > > > > > > thing > > > > > > for small, grassroot organizations to team up. > > > > > > > > > > > > How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and > > > > > > internationally, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with > > > > > > an > > > > > > organization called Global Agoras, > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.globalagoras.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some > > > > > > people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at > > > > > > the > > > > > > issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded > > > > > > organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 > > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 > > > > > > From: John Turnbull > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > > > > > > WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WELCOME! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CONTENTS > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Introduction > > > > > > 2. WWDN news > > > > > > 3. Getting the WWDN up and running > > > > > > 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run > > > > > > a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?) > > > > > > at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January > > > > > > 2003). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. INTRODUCTION > > > > > > > > > > > > The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been > > > > > > set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global > > > > > > problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and > > > > > > societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing > > > > > > ?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a > > > > > > totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth > > > > > > coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to > > > > > > rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a > > > > > > just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. > > > > > > > > > > > > To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we > > > > > > currently have: > > > > > > > > > > > > Government > > > > > > OF - the people > > > > > > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > > > > > > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational > > > > > > corporate capitalism > > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > > > Government > > > > > > OF - the people > > > > > > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > > > > > > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > > > > > > > > > > > Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes > > > > > > the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed > > > > > > in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing > > > > > > about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is > > > > > > essentially one of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please > > > > > > see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . > > > > > > > > > > > > To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions > > > > > > (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your > > > > > > name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, > > > > > > occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) > > > > > > Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. WWDN NEWS > > > > > > > > > > > > Co-learners > > > > > > 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main > > > > > > aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations > > > > > > interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all > > > > > > levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press > > > > > > ?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the > > > > > > subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . > > > > > > > > > > > > Network Associate > > > > > > John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. > > > > > > Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will > > > > > > be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, > > > > > > including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion > > > > > > forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING > > > > > > > > > > > > We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the > > > > > > Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical > > > > > > issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we > > > > > > have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the > > > > > > WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux > > > > > > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > The response to our request for participants has been very > > > > > > encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, > > > > > > including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this > > > > > > kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to > > > > > > anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for > > > > > > political change and working towards a more just and sustainable > > > > > > future. (See above for instructions on registering). > > > > > > > > > > > > Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we > > > > > > can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many > > > > > > languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking > > > > > > translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear > > > > > > from you. > > > > > > > > > > > > John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - > > > > > > ?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS? > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are > > > > > > hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The > > > > > > proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be > > > > > > accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction > > > > > > the WWDN is taking. > > > > > > > > > > > > Summary > > > > > > > > > > > > In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in > > > > > > Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet > > > > > > Jose Saramago issued a challenge: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, > > > > > > from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment > > > > > > to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as > > > > > > if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature > > > > > > until the end of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or > > > > > > indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide > > > > > > debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?" > > > > > > > > > > > > The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the > > > > > > in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in > > > > > > January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of > > > > > > co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: > > > > > > > > > > > > * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are > > > > > > defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and > > > > > > * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic > > > > > > system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the > > > > > > whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the > > > > > > nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and > > > > > > people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies > > > > > > be created? > > > > > > > > > > > > On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, > > > > > > WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking > > > > > > dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of > > > > > > coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical > > > > > > dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget > > > > > > processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and > > > > > > especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose > > > > > > Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed > > > > > > at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to > > > > > > remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. > > > > > > > > > > > > "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on > > > > > > the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of > > > > > > their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems > > > > > > of democracy itself." > > > > > > (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao > > > > > > Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers > > > > > > Co-operative1974.) > > > > > > > > > > > > To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the > > > > > > '2002 Programme' section). > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because > > > > > > you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe > > > > > > you would be interested in the WWDN's work. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to > > > > > > this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. > > > > > > > > > > > > We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. > > > > > > Please let us know if this happens. > > > > > > > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 07:05:55 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C7AD75700C; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 07:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mrburns.nildram.co.uk (mrburns.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 490AD5700A for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 07:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwdemocracy.org (ppp47-32.dial.nildram.co.uk [195.112.47.32]) by mrburns.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56D411E1CDB for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:23:13 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D83467A.6060108@wwdemocracy.org> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:23:54 +0100 From: John Turnbull User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> <3D82A0FB.B15EC831@sun.com> <3D82BA55.E39E2B14@sympatico.ca> <001601c25bc4$d3d403c0$ca4d87d9@vaio> <3D831A03.A30921E5@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000706070701020806060806" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------000706070701020806060806 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bootstrappers, I've been following this list for a few months now, so I am very encouraged - thrilled, in fact - to see that the WWDN has stirred up so much interest. Collaboration with groups such as yours is a major priority for us. Various questions/concerns have been raised in the postings so far. I won't be able to address them over the weekend, but will come back to you early next week. Regards, John Turnbull Network Associate, World Wide Democracy Network. PS - Peter, for some reason I haven't received your request to become a co-learner yet, but I will add you to our list. Henry K van Eyken wrote: >Peter. > >Thanks for coming through with your quick evaluation. > >I am a little surprised by your their tech-phobia. Quoting the writer, John >Turnbull, "We will also be migrating to the Linux >operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN's open-source approach." > >They talk about wishing to change from: > >Government >OF - the people >BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals >FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate capitalism > >To: > >Government >OF - the people >BY - thinking, acting and learning together >FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > >It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR" part, >that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda. Myself, I >like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says or >writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it seems >to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the word >"corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker of >certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word "sustainable," >which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's) participation >in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning whereas >"growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of circumstance. >But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to sustain >mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through the >week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different people >as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a >media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to >co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is good. (If >not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more discontent.) > >Maybe we should put the comments on on our own forum to groups such as the WWDN. In >the meantime, your signing up as a learner is a good step. I appreciate that. > >Like to hear from some others. > >Henry > > >Peter Jones wrote: > > > >>I have attempted to sign up as a 'co-learner' with the WWDN in order to find out >>more. >>They seem nascent. >>Reading the material on their website they certainly don't have the same type of >>Northern hemisphere PhDs adorning their web pages as at globalagoras (which >>might not be a bad thing), and their approach to leadership seems much more like >>concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with the >>agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned. >>That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the >>necessary leverage to set things rolling though. >> >>Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation, >>pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public >>participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any technology >>beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some >>respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the high-tech, >>armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of >>direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values more >>firmly. >> >>I think there might be opportunities for bootstrap-type tools in that mix though >>(on the assumption that the Brazilians don't already have their own - which they >>might, as they seem pretty fired up). >> >>-- >>Peter >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Henry K van Eyken" >>To: >>Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:25 AM >>Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] >> >> >> >>>Eric. >>> >>>They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to wade >>>through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a >>>discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative aspects >>>within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly Fleabyte's - >>> >>> >>a >> >> >>>principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to >>> >>> >>facilitate >> >> >>>by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means for >>>becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen. >>>Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the co-operative >>>aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the >>> >>> >>WWDN >> >> >>>process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping >>> >>> >>important >> >> >>>aspects of democratic processes and structures. Here I see the complementary >>>aspect. >>> >>>Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for >>>effectively doing our bit in this complementarity? How would we handle >>> >>> >>things? >> >> >>>Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly >>> >>> >>supported >> >> >>>agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered >>> >>> >>effort >> >> >>>and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort might be >>>molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It may >>> >>> >>be >> >> >>>from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go after >>>the kind of financing you talked about. >>> >>>Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global Agora. >>> >>> >>I >> >> >>>do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with his >>> >>> >>eyes >> >> >>>right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here. >>> >>>Henry >>> >>> >>>Henry >>> >>> >>>Eric Armstrong wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal. >>>> >>>>If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such >>>>organizations as interested in it, that might well make the >>>>project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that >>>>individual countries might want to contribute to, as well. >>>> >>>>Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough. >>>> >>>>(Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately, >>>>one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding >>>>political ideals...) >>>> >>>>Henry K van Eyken wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Eric. >>>>> >>>>>Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does >>>>>have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? >>>>> >>>>>Henry >>>>> >>>>>Eric Armstrong wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high >>>>>>priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an >>>>>>eventual testing ground for the project. >>>>>> >>>>>>Henry K van Eyken wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner >>>>>>>-ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, >>>>>>>London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy >>>>>>>Network, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>www.wwdemocracy.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - >>>>>>>otherwise >>>>>>>I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good >>>>>>>thing >>>>>>>for small, grassroot organizations to team up. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and >>>>>>>internationally, etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with >>>>>>>an >>>>>>>organization called Global Agoras, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.globalagoras.org/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some >>>>>>>people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at >>>>>>>the >>>>>>>issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded >>>>>>>organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Henry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 >>>>>>>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 >>>>>>>From: John Turnbull >>>>>>>To: undisclosed-recipients:; >>>>>>>WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>WELCOME! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>CONTENTS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 1. Introduction >>>>>>> 2. WWDN news >>>>>>> 3. Getting the WWDN up and running >>>>>>> 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run >>>>>>> a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?) >>>>>>> at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January >>>>>>> 2003). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>1. INTRODUCTION >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been >>>>>>>set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global >>>>>>>problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and >>>>>>>societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing >>>>>>>?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a >>>>>>>totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth >>>>>>>coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to >>>>>>>rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a >>>>>>>just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we >>>>>>>currently have: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Government >>>>>>>OF - the people >>>>>>>BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals >>>>>>>FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational >>>>>>>corporate capitalism >>>>>>> >>>>>>>To: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Government >>>>>>>OF - the people >>>>>>>BY - thinking, acting and learning together >>>>>>>FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes >>>>>>>the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed >>>>>>>in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing >>>>>>>about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is >>>>>>>essentially one of mutual learning. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please >>>>>>>see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . >>>>>>> >>>>>>>To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions >>>>>>>(available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your >>>>>>>name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, >>>>>>>occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) >>>>>>>Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>2. WWDN NEWS >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Co-learners >>>>>>>55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main >>>>>>>aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations >>>>>>>interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all >>>>>>>levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press >>>>>>>?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the >>>>>>>subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Network Associate >>>>>>>John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. >>>>>>>Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will >>>>>>>be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, >>>>>>>including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion >>>>>>>forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING >>>>>>> >>>>>>>We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the >>>>>>>Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical >>>>>>>issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we >>>>>>>have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the >>>>>>>WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux >>>>>>>operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source >>>>>>>approach. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The response to our request for participants has been very >>>>>>>encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, >>>>>>>including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this >>>>>>>kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to >>>>>>>anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for >>>>>>>political change and working towards a more just and sustainable >>>>>>>future. (See above for instructions on registering). >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we >>>>>>>can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many >>>>>>>languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking >>>>>>>translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear >>>>>>>from you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - >>>>>>>?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are >>>>>>>hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The >>>>>>>proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be >>>>>>>accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction >>>>>>>the WWDN is taking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Summary >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in >>>>>>>Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet >>>>>>>Jose Saramago issued a challenge: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, >>>>>>>from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment >>>>>>>to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as >>>>>>>if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature >>>>>>>until the end of time. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or >>>>>>>indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide >>>>>>>debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the >>>>>>>in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in >>>>>>>January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of >>>>>>>co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are >>>>>>> defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and >>>>>>> * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic >>>>>>> system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the >>>>>>> whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the >>>>>>> nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and >>>>>>> people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies >>>>>>> be created? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, >>>>>>>WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking >>>>>>>dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of >>>>>>>coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical >>>>>>>dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget >>>>>>>processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and >>>>>>>especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose >>>>>>>Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed >>>>>>>at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to >>>>>>>remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on >>>>>>>the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of >>>>>>>their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems >>>>>>>of democracy itself." >>>>>>>(Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao >>>>>>>Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers >>>>>>>Co-operative1974.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>>To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the >>>>>>>'2002 Programme' section). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>>>>>>We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because >>>>>>>you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe >>>>>>>you would be interested in the WWDN's work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to >>>>>>>this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. >>>>>>>Please let us know if this happens. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> >>> > > > > --------------000706070701020806060806 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Bootstrappers,

I've been following this list for a few months now, so I am very encouraged - thrilled, in fact - to see that the WWDN has stirred up so much interest.
Collaboration with groups such as yours is a major priority for us.

Various questions/concerns have been raised in the postings so far. I won't be able to address them over the weekend, but will come back to you early next week.

Regards,

John Turnbull
Network Associate, World Wide Democracy Network.

PS - Peter, for some reason I haven't received your request to become a co-learner yet, but I will add you to our list.


Henry K van Eyken wrote:
Peter.

Thanks for coming through with your quick evaluation.

I am a little surprised by your their tech-phobia. Quoting the writer, John
Turnbull, "We will also be migrating to the Linux
operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN's open-source approach."

They talk about wishing to change from:

Government
OF      - the people
BY      - interchangeable sets of political professionals
FOR    - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate capitalism

To:

Government
OF    - the people
BY    - thinking, acting and learning together
FOR  - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies

It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR" part,
that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda. Myself, I
like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says or
writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it seems
to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the word
"corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker of
certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word "sustainable,"
which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's) participation
in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning whereas
"growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of circumstance.
But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to sustain
mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through the
week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different people
as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a
media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to
co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is good. (If
not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more discontent.)

Maybe we should put the comments on on our own forum to groups such as the WWDN. In
the meantime, your signing up as a learner is a good step. I appreciate that.

Like to hear from some others.

Henry


Peter Jones wrote:

  
I have attempted to sign up as a 'co-learner' with the WWDN in order to find out
more.
They seem nascent.
Reading the material on their website they certainly don't have the same type of
Northern hemisphere PhDs adorning their web pages as at globalagoras (which
might not be a bad thing), and their approach to leadership seems much more like
concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with the
agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned.
That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the
necessary leverage to set things rolling though.

Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation,
pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public
participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any technology
beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some
respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the high-tech,
armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of
direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values more
firmly.

I think there might be opportunities for bootstrap-type tools in that mix though
(on the assumption that the Brazilians don't already have their own - which they
might, as they seem pretty fired up).

--
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry K van Eyken" <vaneyken@sympatico.ca>
To: <ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02]

    
Eric.

They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to wade
through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a
discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative aspects
within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly Fleabyte's -
      
a
    
principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to
      
facilitate
    
by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means for
becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen.
Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the co-operative
aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the
      
WWDN
    
process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping
      
important
    
aspects of  democratic processes and structures. Here I see the complementary
aspect.

Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for
effectively doing our  bit in this complementarity? How would we handle
      
things?
    
Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly
      
supported
    
agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered
      
effort
    
and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort might be
molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It may
      
be
    
from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go after
the kind of financing you talked about.

Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global Agora.
      
I
    
do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with his
      
eyes
    
right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here.

Henry


Henry


Eric Armstrong wrote:

      
Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal.

If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such
organizations as interested in it, that might well make the
project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that
individual countries might want to contribute to, as well.

Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough.

(Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately,
one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding
political ideals...)

Henry K van Eyken wrote:

        
Eric.

Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does
have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it?

Henry

Eric Armstrong wrote:

          
Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high
priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an
eventual testing ground for the project.

Henry K van Eyken wrote:

            
I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner
-ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed,
London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy
Network,

www.wwdemocracy.org

On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan -
otherwise
I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good
thing
for small, grassroot organizations to team up.

How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and
internationally, etc.

You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with
an
organization called Global Agoras,

http://www.globalagoras.org/

The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some
people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at
the
issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded
organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc.

Henry



   ----------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100
From: John Turnbull <jt@wwdemocracy.org>
To: undisclosed-recipients:;
WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003


WELCOME!


CONTENTS

  1. Introduction
  2. WWDN news
  3. Getting the WWDN up and running
  4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run
     a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?)
     at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January
     2003).


1. INTRODUCTION

The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been
set up to link people in a process of mutual learning.

Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global
problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and
societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing
?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a
totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth
coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to
rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a
just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy.

To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we
currently have:

Government
OF      - the people
BY      - interchangeable sets of political professionals
FOR    - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational
corporate capitalism

To:

Government
OF    - the people
BY    - thinking, acting and learning together
FOR  - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies

Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes
the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed
in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing
about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is
essentially one of mutual learning.

For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please
see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 .

To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions
(available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your
name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address,
occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.)
Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org


2. WWDN NEWS

Co-learners
55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main
aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations
interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all
levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press
?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the
subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org .

Network Associate
John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN.
Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will
be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network,
including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion
forum and editing the quarterly newsletter.


3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING

We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the
Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical
issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we
have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the
WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux
operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source
approach.

The response to our request for participants has been very
encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds,
including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this
kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to
anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for
political change and working towards a more just and sustainable
future. (See above for instructions on registering).

Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we
can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many
languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking
translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear
from you.

John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org )


4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM -
?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS?

This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are
hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The
proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be
accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction
the WWDN is taking.

Summary

In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in
Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet
Jose Saramago issued a challenge:

"Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology,
from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment
to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as
if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature
until the end of time.

"Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or
indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide
debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?"

The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the
in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems.

WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in
January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of
co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define:

   * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are
     defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and
   * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic
     system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the
     whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the
     nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and
     people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies
     be created?

On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues,
WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking
dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of
coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical
dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget
processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and
especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself.

To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose
Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed
at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to
remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies.

"Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on
the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of
their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems
of democracy itself."
(Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao
Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers
Co-operative1974.)

To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the
'2002 Programme' section).
              
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
      
We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because
you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe
you would be interested in the WWDN's work.

If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to
this message with 'STOP' in the subject field.

We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter.
Please let us know if this happens.

              
      


  

--------------000706070701020806060806-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 08:20:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 13B455700C; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 08:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.171]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A18EE5700A for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 08:20:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-306.pounder.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.213.50] helo=vaio) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17qF0K-0003Ao-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:38:40 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c25c04$720a56e0$32d5193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> <3D82A0FB.B15EC831@sun.com> <3D82BA55.E39E2B14@sympatico.ca> <001601c25bc4$d3d403c0$ca4d87d9@vaio> <3D831A03.A30921E5@sympatico.ca> <3D83467A.6060108@wwdemocracy.org> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:36:06 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Hi John, Good to hear from you. I hope my initial characterisation of WWDN wasn't too far wide of the mark. I sent my request to the email address on the website info@wwdemocracy.org. Perhaps someone else picks that one up(?). Cheers, -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Turnbull" To: Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:23 PM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] > Dear Bootstrappers, > > I've been following this list for a few months now, so I am very > encouraged - thrilled, in fact - to see that the WWDN has stirred up so > much interest. > Collaboration with groups such as yours is a major priority for us. > > Various questions/concerns have been raised in the postings so far. I > won't be able to address them over the weekend, but will come back to > you early next week. > > Regards, > > John Turnbull > Network Associate, World Wide Democracy Network. > > PS - Peter, for some reason I haven't received your request to become a > co-learner yet, but I will add you to our list. > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > >Peter. > > > >Thanks for coming through with your quick evaluation. > > > >I am a little surprised by your their tech-phobia. Quoting the writer, John > >Turnbull, "We will also be migrating to the Linux > >operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN's open-source approach." > > > >They talk about wishing to change from: > > > >Government > >OF - the people > >BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > >FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate capitalism > > > >To: > > > >Government > >OF - the people > >BY - thinking, acting and learning together > >FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > > >It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR" part, > >that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda. Myself, I > >like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says or > >writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it seems > >to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the word > >"corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker of > >certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word "sustainable," > >which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's) participation > >in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning whereas > >"growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of circumstance. > >But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to sustain > >mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through the > >week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different people > >as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a > >media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to > >co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is good. (If > >not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more discontent.) > > > >Maybe we should put the comments on on our own forum to groups such as the WWDN. In > >the meantime, your signing up as a learner is a good step. I appreciate that. > > > >Like to hear from some others. > > > >Henry > > > > > >Peter Jones wrote: > > > > > > > >>I have attempted to sign up as a 'co-learner' with the WWDN in order to find out > >>more. > >>They seem nascent. > >>Reading the material on their website they certainly don't have the same type of > >>Northern hemisphere PhDs adorning their web pages as at globalagoras (which > >>might not be a bad thing), and their approach to leadership seems much more like > >>concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with the > >>agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned. > >>That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the > >>necessary leverage to set things rolling though. > >> > >>Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation, > >>pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public > >>participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any technology > >>beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some > >>respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the high-tech, > >>armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of > >>direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values more > >>firmly. > >> > >>I think there might be opportunities for bootstrap-type tools in that mix though > >>(on the assumption that the Brazilians don't already have their own - which they > >>might, as they seem pretty fired up). > >> > >>-- > >>Peter > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "Henry K van Eyken" > >>To: > >>Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:25 AM > >>Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] > >> > >> > >> > >>>Eric. > >>> > >>>They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to wade > >>>through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a > >>>discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative aspects > >>>within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly Fleabyte's - > >>> > >>> > >>a > >> > >> > >>>principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to > >>> > >>> > >>facilitate > >> > >> > >>>by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means for > >>>becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen. > >>>Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the co-operative > >>>aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the > >>> > >>> > >>WWDN > >> > >> > >>>process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping > >>> > >>> > >>important > >> > >> > >>>aspects of democratic processes and structures. Here I see the complementary > >>>aspect. > >>> > >>>Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for > >>>effectively doing our bit in this complementarity? How would we handle > >>> > >>> > >>things? > >> > >> > >>>Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly > >>> > >>> > >>supported > >> > >> > >>>agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered > >>> > >>> > >>effort > >> > >> > >>>and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort might be > >>>molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It may > >>> > >>> > >>be > >> > >> > >>>from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go after > >>>the kind of financing you talked about. > >>> > >>>Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global Agora. > >>> > >>> > >>I > >> > >> > >>>do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with his > >>> > >>> > >>eyes > >> > >> > >>>right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here. > >>> > >>>Henry > >>> > >>> > >>>Henry > >>> > >>> > >>>Eric Armstrong wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal. > >>>> > >>>>If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such > >>>>organizations as interested in it, that might well make the > >>>>project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that > >>>>individual countries might want to contribute to, as well. > >>>> > >>>>Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough. > >>>> > >>>>(Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately, > >>>>one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding > >>>>political ideals...) > >>>> > >>>>Henry K van Eyken wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>>Eric. > >>>>> > >>>>>Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does > >>>>>have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? > >>>>> > >>>>>Henry > >>>>> > >>>>>Eric Armstrong wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>>Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high > >>>>>>priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an > >>>>>>eventual testing ground for the project. > >>>>>> > >>>>>>Henry K van Eyken wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner > >>>>>>>-ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, > >>>>>>>London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy > >>>>>>>Network, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>www.wwdemocracy.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - > >>>>>>>otherwise > >>>>>>>I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good > >>>>>>>thing > >>>>>>>for small, grassroot organizations to team up. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and > >>>>>>>internationally, etc. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with > >>>>>>>an > >>>>>>>organization called Global Agoras, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>http://www.globalagoras.org/ > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some > >>>>>>>people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at > >>>>>>>the > >>>>>>>issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded > >>>>>>>organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Henry > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 > >>>>>>>Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 > >>>>>>>From: John Turnbull > >>>>>>>To: undisclosed-recipients:; > >>>>>>>WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>WELCOME! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>CONTENTS > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 1. Introduction > >>>>>>> 2. WWDN news > >>>>>>> 3. Getting the WWDN up and running > >>>>>>> 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run > >>>>>>> a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?) > >>>>>>> at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January > >>>>>>> 2003). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>1. INTRODUCTION > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been > >>>>>>>set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global > >>>>>>>problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and > >>>>>>>societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing > >>>>>>>?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a > >>>>>>>totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth > >>>>>>>coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to > >>>>>>>rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a > >>>>>>>just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we > >>>>>>>currently have: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Government > >>>>>>>OF - the people > >>>>>>>BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > >>>>>>>FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational > >>>>>>>corporate capitalism > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>To: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Government > >>>>>>>OF - the people > >>>>>>>BY - thinking, acting and learning together > >>>>>>>FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes > >>>>>>>the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed > >>>>>>>in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing > >>>>>>>about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is > >>>>>>>essentially one of mutual learning. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please > >>>>>>>see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions > >>>>>>>(available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your > >>>>>>>name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, > >>>>>>>occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) > >>>>>>>Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>2. WWDN NEWS > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Co-learners > >>>>>>>55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main > >>>>>>>aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations > >>>>>>>interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all > >>>>>>>levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press > >>>>>>>?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the > >>>>>>>subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Network Associate > >>>>>>>John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. > >>>>>>>Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will > >>>>>>>be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, > >>>>>>>including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion > >>>>>>>forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the > >>>>>>>Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical > >>>>>>>issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we > >>>>>>>have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the > >>>>>>>WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux > >>>>>>>operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source > >>>>>>>approach. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>The response to our request for participants has been very > >>>>>>>encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, > >>>>>>>including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this > >>>>>>>kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to > >>>>>>>anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for > >>>>>>>political change and working towards a more just and sustainable > >>>>>>>future. (See above for instructions on registering). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we > >>>>>>>can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many > >>>>>>>languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking > >>>>>>>translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear > >>>>>>>from you. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - > >>>>>>>?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are > >>>>>>>hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The > >>>>>>>proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be > >>>>>>>accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction > >>>>>>>the WWDN is taking. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>Summary > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in > >>>>>>>Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet > >>>>>>>Jose Saramago issued a challenge: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>"Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, > >>>>>>>from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment > >>>>>>>to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as > >>>>>>>if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature > >>>>>>>until the end of time. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>"Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or > >>>>>>>indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide > >>>>>>>debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?" > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the > >>>>>>>in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in > >>>>>>>January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of > >>>>>>>co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are > >>>>>>> defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and > >>>>>>> * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic > >>>>>>> system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the > >>>>>>> whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the > >>>>>>> nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and > >>>>>>> people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies > >>>>>>> be created? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, > >>>>>>>WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking > >>>>>>>dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of > >>>>>>>coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical > >>>>>>>dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget > >>>>>>>processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and > >>>>>>>especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose > >>>>>>>Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed > >>>>>>>at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to > >>>>>>>remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>"Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on > >>>>>>>the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of > >>>>>>>their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems > >>>>>>>of democracy itself." > >>>>>>>(Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao > >>>>>>>Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers > >>>>>>>Co-operative1974.) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the > >>>>>>>'2002 Programme' section). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> > >>> > >>>>>>>We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because > >>>>>>>you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe > >>>>>>>you would be interested in the WWDN's work. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to > >>>>>>>this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. > >>>>>>>Please let us know if this happens. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 09:07:19 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 36ECF5700C; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.176]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1192F5700A for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 09:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-161.pounder.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.212.161] helo=vaio) by cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17qFjQ-0000SA-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:25:17 +0100 Message-ID: <003301c25c0a$f4e6f400$32d5193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> <3D82A0FB.B15EC831@sun.com> <3D82BA55.E39E2B14@sympatico.ca> <001601c25bc4$d3d403c0$ca4d87d9@vaio> <3D831A03.A30921E5@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:22:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Henry, I was not suggesting that WWDN were tech-phobic in themselves. Merely that the processes they are dealing with require appropriate technology - which might in some cases mean no high-technology whatsoever. I do sometimes think that there is a bit of a tech overkill attitude lurking at the back of some of what is said on these lists. Not everything needs a computer inserted into the equation in order to augment the well-being of people. Note that Doug wrote Augmenting Human *Intellect* - not e.g. Augmenting Human Feeding Habits or Mating Patterns. The day someone gives me a smart-spoon that tells me how to eat my pudding... will be grim day indeed. Cheers, -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry K van Eyken" To: Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] > Peter. > > Thanks for coming through with your quick evaluation. > > I am a little surprised by your their tech-phobia. Quoting the writer, John > Turnbull, "We will also be migrating to the Linux > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN's open-source approach." > > They talk about wishing to change from: > > Government > OF - the people > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate capitalism > > To: > > Government > OF - the people > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR" part, > that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda. Myself, I > like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says or > writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it seems > to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the word > "corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker of > certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word "sustainable," > which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's) participation > in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning whereas > "growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of circumstance. > But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to sustain > mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through the > week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different people > as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a > media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to > co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is good. (If > not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more discontent.) > > Maybe we should put the comments on on our own forum to groups such as the WWDN. In > the meantime, your signing up as a learner is a good step. I appreciate that. > > Like to hear from some others. > > Henry > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > I have attempted to sign up as a 'co-learner' with the WWDN in order to find out > > more. > > They seem nascent. > > Reading the material on their website they certainly don't have the same type of > > Northern hemisphere PhDs adorning their web pages as at globalagoras (which > > might not be a bad thing), and their approach to leadership seems much more like > > concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with the > > agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned. > > That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the > > necessary leverage to set things rolling though. > > > > Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation, > > pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public > > participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any technology > > beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some > > respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the high-tech, > > armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of > > direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values more > > firmly. > > > > I think there might be opportunities for bootstrap-type tools in that mix though > > (on the assumption that the Brazilians don't already have their own - which they > > might, as they seem pretty fired up). > > > > -- > > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Henry K van Eyken" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:25 AM > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] > > > > > Eric. > > > > > > They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to wade > > > through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a > > > discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative aspects > > > within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly Fleabyte's - > > a > > > principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to > > facilitate > > > by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means for > > > becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen. > > > Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the co-operative > > > aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the > > WWDN > > > process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping > > important > > > aspects of democratic processes and structures. Here I see the complementary > > > aspect. > > > > > > Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for > > > effectively doing our bit in this complementarity? How would we handle > > things? > > > Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly > > supported > > > agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered > > effort > > > and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort might be > > > molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It may > > be > > > from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go after > > > the kind of financing you talked about. > > > > > > Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global Agora. > > I > > > do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with his > > eyes > > > right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here. > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > > > Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal. > > > > > > > > If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such > > > > organizations as interested in it, that might well make the > > > > project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that > > > > individual countries might want to contribute to, as well. > > > > > > > > Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough. > > > > > > > > (Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately, > > > > one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding > > > > political ideals...) > > > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > > > > > Eric. > > > > > > > > > > Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does > > > > > have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high > > > > > > priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an > > > > > > eventual testing ground for the project. > > > > > > > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner > > > > > > > -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, > > > > > > > London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy > > > > > > > Network, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - > > > > > > > otherwise > > > > > > > I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good > > > > > > > thing > > > > > > > for small, grassroot organizations to team up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. and > > > > > > > internationally, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch with > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > organization called Global Agoras, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.globalagoras.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might some > > > > > > > people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded > > > > > > > organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 > > > > > > > From: John Turnbull > > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > > > > > > > WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WELCOME! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CONTENTS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Introduction > > > > > > > 2. WWDN news > > > > > > > 3. Getting the WWDN up and running > > > > > > > 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to run > > > > > > > a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic Systems?) > > > > > > > at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January > > > > > > > 2003). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. INTRODUCTION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has been > > > > > > > set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent global > > > > > > > problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation and > > > > > > > societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the existing > > > > > > > ?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a > > > > > > > totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth > > > > > > > coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to > > > > > > > rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build a > > > > > > > just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we > > > > > > > currently have: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Government > > > > > > > OF - the people > > > > > > > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > > > > > > > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational > > > > > > > corporate capitalism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Government > > > > > > > OF - the people > > > > > > > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > > > > > > > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political processes > > > > > > > the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory developed > > > > > > > in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing > > > > > > > about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is > > > > > > > essentially one of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, please > > > > > > > see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online discussions > > > > > > > (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include your > > > > > > > name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, > > > > > > > occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) > > > > > > > Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. WWDN NEWS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Co-learners > > > > > > > 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s main > > > > > > > aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations > > > > > > > interested in developing viable strategies for political change at all > > > > > > > levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please press > > > > > > > ?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in the > > > > > > > subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Network Associate > > > > > > > John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. > > > > > > > Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John will > > > > > > > be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, > > > > > > > including managing the contacts database, moderating the discussion > > > > > > > forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want the > > > > > > > Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical > > > > > > > issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, we > > > > > > > have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling the > > > > > > > WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux > > > > > > > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s open-source > > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The response to our request for participants has been very > > > > > > > encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of backgrounds, > > > > > > > including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, this > > > > > > > kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open to > > > > > > > anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for > > > > > > > political change and working towards a more just and sustainable > > > > > > > future. (See above for instructions on registering). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as we > > > > > > > can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many > > > > > > > languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking > > > > > > > translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to hear > > > > > > > from you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - > > > > > > > ?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are > > > > > > > hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The > > > > > > > proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will be > > > > > > > accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the direction > > > > > > > the WWDN is taking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Summary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held in > > > > > > > Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning poet > > > > > > > Jose Saramago issued a challenge: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to ecology, > > > > > > > from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste treatment > > > > > > > to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, as > > > > > > > if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by nature > > > > > > > until the end of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or > > > > > > > indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster worldwide > > > > > > > debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the > > > > > > > in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre in > > > > > > > January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme of > > > > > > > co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and define: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are > > > > > > > defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and > > > > > > > * what are the essential components of an alternative democratic > > > > > > > system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of the > > > > > > > whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is the > > > > > > > nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and > > > > > > > people power? And how, in practical terms, can such democracies > > > > > > > be created? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related issues, > > > > > > > WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking > > > > > > > dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development of > > > > > > > coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a practical > > > > > > > dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget > > > > > > > processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and > > > > > > > especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to Jose > > > > > > > Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue aimed > > > > > > > at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to > > > > > > > remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, on > > > > > > > the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the problems of > > > > > > > their country, their continent, their world, their work, the problems > > > > > > > of democracy itself." > > > > > > > (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao > > > > > > > Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and Readers > > > > > > > Co-operative1974.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org (the > > > > > > > '2002 Programme' section). > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either because > > > > > > > you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we believe > > > > > > > you would be interested in the WWDN's work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply to > > > > > > > this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this newsletter. > > > > > > > Please let us know if this happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From hc97kp@ntlworld.com Sat Sep 14 10:53:05 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: from mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (mta01-svc.ntlworld.com [62.253.162.41]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AEB115700A for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 10:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Euri ([213.104.236.169]) by mta01-svc.ntlworld.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with SMTP id <20020914181047.PJHI292.mta01-svc.ntlworld.com@Euri> for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:10:47 +0100 From: privacy To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Subject: You have any questions or need assistance, MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=YB2F7S3iSD2BX0hT9rOsJNYoO145yp998938W Message-Id: 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2001) id 48B715700D; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A53EF5700A for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jack ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020914184227.MPFW23613.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@jack> for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 18:42:27 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 11:41:27 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: Thommandel@aol.com ><< Relayed by Doug Everingham from an attachment to a message >From: "Alan Kerns" >To: [Economic Reform Australia list] >Subject: Re: [ERANet] Ockham's Razor - Uncertainty and Demonising - Eva Cox >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 4:12 AM >---------- > >From Eva Cox's radio program >Ockham's Razor -- transcript at >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s658492.htm > or listening >to it (in RealAudio format) from >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/audio/ockham_25082002_2856.ram > [15 >minutes] > > >Ockham's Razor - 16/02/1997 > >Let's Scrap The Economy > >Summary: > >Ted Trainer explains why the most important item on our agenda should be >almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory it's based >on. > >Transcript: > >Robyn Williams: The economy is on everybody's mind, as usual, sometimes to >the exclusion of most other affairs. So you'll be diverted, perhaps, to >learn that the title of this week's Ockham's Razor talk is "Let's Scrap the >Economy." No prisoners taken today. > >Well Dr Ted Trainer lectures in Social Work at the University of New South >Wales, and here's his case for abolition. > >Ted Trainer: I want to explain why the most important item on our agenda >should be almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory >it's based on. > >Firstly, this economy is obviously not solving our problems. In the last >four decades, real income per person in rich countries like Australia has >more or less trebled. Even in the recessed 1980s, Australia's GDP increased >by one-third in real terms. Now one would have thought that such large >increases would have enabled us to totally eliminate problems, such as debt, >insufficient casualty wards and especially poverty. But in fact it's >difficult to nominate one social or economic problem that's not become much >more serious. Unemployment, inequality and poverty increased, and we now >have perhaps 40,000 homeless people in Australia. In the 1980s Australia's >rural debt and our foreign debt both multiplied by about ten. In addition, >just about all indices of social breakdown and the experienced quality of >life deteriorated. > >It's not just that a system with that record is not likely to suddenly start >providing well for all. This economy causes the problems now literally >threatening the destruction of our ecosystems and our social cohesion in >coming decades. > >Consider firstly the market system. Markets do some things well and there >might be an important role for them in a satisfactory economy. But at >present, market forces are given far too much power to determine production, >distribution and development. It's no exaggeration to say that most of the >human misery and environmental damage in the world is directly due to the >operation of market forces. > >Access to the world's resources is grossly unjust. One fifth of the world's >people are taking and using up about 80% of all the resources produced and >two to three billion people are seriously deprived. While we squander >resources on affluent consumer lifestyles, between one and two billion >people have insufficient food and unsafe drinking water. As a result, more >than 30,000 people die every day. > >The main reason for this extreme deprivation and injustice is that the >global economy is a market system, and in a market most of the available >resources go to those who can pay most for them. That's why Australia has an >average energy consumption that is 18 times the average for the poorest half >of the world's people. And it's why more than 500-million tonnes of grain - >about one-third of the world's total production - is fed to animals in rich >countries every year to produce meat, while millions in the Third World are >hungry. > >Even more important, is the fact that market forces draw Third World >productive capacity into producing things to export to rich countries, when >anyone can see that those resources should be used by Third World people to >produce for themselves the basic goods they need. The most disturbing >example of this is the vast area of the best Third World land growing crops >to export to our supermarkets. > >Hence, we see the essential characteristic of conventional growth and >trickle-down development. That is, the fact that it results in development >which is almost entirely inappropriate to the needs of most Third World >people. When what's developed is determined by market forces, by what will >be most profitable to those with money to invest and money to buy products, >then the inevitable result will be development of the wrong >things; development mostly of what will benefit the rich. In the last decade >we have entered an era in which these impoverishing effects of the market >will rapidly accelerate, because we're now seeing the "globalisation" of the >world economy. Since the 1970s it has become >increasingly difficult for corporations and banks to find enough profitable >investment outlets. Now they're solving this problem by a huge effort to >sweep away all the tariffs and protection and arrangements which previously >enabled large numbers of people and regions to produce and sell things. The >freedom of trade has been made into the supreme sacred value and anything >which restricts the access of the big corporations and banks to resources >and markets is being eliminated. > >Why are the economic and political leaders of all countries eagerly going >along with this push for globalisation and absolute freedom of trade, fully >opening their societies to the predations of the transnational corporations >and banks? The answer is, because they have studied conventional economics >and the only way they know to try to solve their problems is to "get the >economy going", to crank up more production and consumption, and of course >the best way to get more business turnover happening is to give the >corporations even more freedom to buy and sell. The sane alternative is >never considered: that is, to make sure that Australia's abundant land, >labour and capital is fully applied to producing what we need for a very >satisfactory and secure existence, sharing the work, letting in only those >foreign corporations that will produce what we want, trading only a little, >to earn the export income needed to import only those things we can't >produce easily. > >The second major criticism of our economy concerns the destructive relation >between the market and society. A number of economic historians, such as >Polanyi, have pointed out that the more the economy prospers, the more that >desirable social bonds and cohesion are undermined. > >A society is made up of many intangible social bonds, ties, commitments and >relations - for example, bonds of familiarity, friendship, trust, >obligation, morality and tradition. These social values are contradicted by >the values and attitudes that the market requires. In a market situation >your attention is focused on maximising your individual gain and guarding >against exploitation. The market situation does not encourage you to think >about what is good for the other person or for society. The more we turn to >market relations, the less emphasis we're putting on relations that build >social concern and cohesion. As Polanyi and others have explained, in all >pre-capitalist societies, markets and the maximisation of individual income >were either of trivial significance or did not exist at all. Social factors, >such as moral codes, religion and tradition were the important criteria >determining production, distribution and development. > >This clash between the economy and society becomes obvious when we ask what >would happen if we allowed production and distribution within a family to be >determined by what would maximise sales or cash income. If Mum started >making the toast and then selling it to the highest bidder, the economic >efficiency of the domestic scene would be greatly improved, but the kids >wouldn't get much toast because Dad can bid much more than they can. In no >time, the desirable social relations which ensure that Grandpa can have some >toast, even though he is economically useless, would be replaced by >calculations about individual cash advantage. In other words, merely >economic calculations of individual advantage would drive out the social >relations and concerns whereby in a good society we do many things because >they are right, or nice, or just, without regard to whether or not they're >profitable or economically efficient. Hence we can understand why Polanyi >emphasised that the self-interest which market relations are about will >literally destroy society and its ecosystems if they're not kept under close >control. > >I come now to the most serious of all the faults built into this economy. >This is simply the mindless commitment to growth in a world of limited >resources. You cannot go on and on forever increasing output on a planet >with limited energy, mineral, biological and environmental resources. But >conventional economists on the Left and the Right refuse to think about >this. > >It's recently been estimated that each person in Sydney requires 4.5 >hectares of productive land. If all the world's people were to live as >people in Sydney do, we would need three times all the productive land on >the planet and for the expected world population of 11-billion by about >2070, we'd need six times that area. Clearly it's impossible for all to live >as we do. > >The greenhouse problem provides another powerful argument. The >Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has said that we must cut global >carbon emissions by 60% to 80%. If we cut it by 60% and share the remaining >energy among the 11-billion people expected after 2060, each of us would >have to get by on only one-eighteenth of the energy we now average in >Australia. Most people have no idea that we must face up to such huge >reductions in consumption if we are to solve the big problems. > >But we have an economy which cannot tolerate any reduction in the volume of >production or sales. In fact unless output grows at more than 3% per annum, >there are serious problems, especially of unemployment. It is obviously not >an economy that could enable us to just produce sufficient to provide us all >with good lifestyles, or a stable minimum amount of resource use and work. > >If you examine potentially recoverable resource estimates for minerals and >fuels, you will find that if all people were to live as we in rich countries >do, then most resources would be totally exhausted in something like four >decades. These have been some of the lines of argument which I think show >that there is no possibility of all people rising to anything like the >living standards people in Australia take for granted today. > >During the 1980s Australia had about 3.2% per annum growth, but this was far >from sufficient because all our problems became more serious. Let's assume >4% would be sufficient for a healthy economy, and let's assume we keep that >up to 2060, and that by then all the world's people will have risen to the >living standards we would then have. Do you realise that world economic >output would then be 220 times what it is today? Even if the world as a >whole were only to average 3% growth from here on, then by 2060 total world >output would be eight times what it is now. I have just explained that there >are convincing reasons for concluding that the present amount of world >output is totally unsustainable, let alone any multiple of it. > >There is now a substantial and growing literature on the basic form a >sustainable society must take, given the limits to growth analysis of our >situation. An almost completely new economy must be eventually developed, a >Third Way, quite different from the capitalist and the big-state socialist >ways. It must be made up of many small scale, highly self-sufficient local >economies, involving much simpler and less affluent lifestyles than we have >now, and much more co-operative arrangements. There could be a role for >market forces and free enterprise in the form of mostly small businesses, >but these would have to be under strict social control. Above all, it would >have to be a zero growth or steady state economy, in which we can just >produce enough for a high quality of life for all without constantly >increasing production or consumption. > >Among the ideas being discussed and implemented are locating small market >gardens throughout cities, planting our suburbs with edible landscapes that >will provide free food and materials, decentralising much production to >small local firms, many of which might operate in craft ways, having our own >town and suburban banks with elected boards ensuring that our savings can be >invested in enriching our own suburbs, moving much economic activity out of >the cash sector and into the realm of gifts, surplus swapping and >contributions to working bees, having suburban market days and running many >things via local voluntary committees.0 > >I have no doubt we could easily organise a much higher quality of life at a >much more relaxed pace than most of us have now, with no reduction in the >availability of modern medical or other important technologies, if most >people saw the desirability of restructuring towns and neighbourhoods along >the lines now being pioneered by the global Ecovillage and Permaculture >movements. > >It is astounding that although the limits to growth argument has been around >for about 25 years, there is almost no public discussion of it in Australia >today. The historian Toynbee analysed the rise and fall of civilisations in >terms of their capacity to respond to challenge. What can we say about our >prospects when we show almost no ability to even recognise that an economy >committed to affluence and growth is totally incompatible with ecological or >social sustainability. > >Robyn Williams: Ted Trainer lectures in the Department of Social Work at the >University of New South Wales. If you'd like to read more about the details >of a sustainable society according to him, you can get hold of his two >recent books: one is "The Conserver Society" published by Zed Books; and the >other is Towards a Sustainable Economy, by Envirobooks. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 12:34:15 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 04AD25700C; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts8.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.52]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 42C605700A for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 12:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.110]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020914195214.ENLY28662.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:52:14 -0400 Message-ID: <3D83928A.51C9CB39@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:48:26 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> <3D82A0FB.B15EC831@sun.com> <3D82BA55.E39E2B14@sympatico.ca> <001601c25bc4$d3d403c0$ca4d87d9@vaio> <3D831A03.A30921E5@sympatico.ca> <003301c25c0a$f4e6f400$32d5193e@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org OK, Peter. :) I guess we can all go along with that! Henry Peter Jones wrote: > Henry, > > I was not suggesting that WWDN were tech-phobic in themselves. > Merely that the processes they are dealing with require appropriate technology - > which might in some cases mean no high-technology whatsoever. > > I do sometimes think that there is a bit of a tech overkill attitude lurking at > the back of some of what is said on these lists. > Not everything needs a computer inserted into the equation in order to augment > the well-being of people. > > Note that Doug wrote Augmenting Human *Intellect* - not e.g. Augmenting Human > Feeding Habits or Mating Patterns. > The day someone gives me a smart-spoon that tells me how to eat my pudding... > will be grim day indeed. > > Cheers, > -- > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henry K van Eyken" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 12:14 PM > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] > > > Peter. > > > > Thanks for coming through with your quick evaluation. > > > > I am a little surprised by your their tech-phobia. Quoting the writer, John > > Turnbull, "We will also be migrating to the Linux > > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN's open-source > approach." > > > > They talk about wishing to change from: > > > > Government > > OF - the people > > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational corporate > capitalism > > > > To: > > > > Government > > OF - the people > > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > > > It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR" > part, > > that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda. > Myself, I > > like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says > or > > writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it > seems > > to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the > word > > "corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker > of > > certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word > "sustainable," > > which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's) > participation > > in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning > whereas > > "growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of > circumstance. > > But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to > sustain > > mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through > the > > week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different > people > > as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a > > media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to > > co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is > good. (If > > not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more > discontent.) > > > > Maybe we should put the comments on on our own forum to groups such as the > WWDN. In > > the meantime, your signing up as a learner is a good step. I appreciate that. > > > > Like to hear from some others. > > > > Henry > > > > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > > I have attempted to sign up as a 'co-learner' with the WWDN in order to find > out > > > more. > > > They seem nascent. > > > Reading the material on their website they certainly don't have the same > type of > > > Northern hemisphere PhDs adorning their web pages as at globalagoras (which > > > might not be a bad thing), and their approach to leadership seems much more > like > > > concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with > the > > > agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned. > > > That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the > > > necessary leverage to set things rolling though. > > > > > > Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation, > > > pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public > > > participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any > technology > > > beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some > > > respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the > high-tech, > > > armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of > > > direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values > more > > > firmly. > > > > > > I think there might be opportunities for bootstrap-type tools in that mix > though > > > (on the assumption that the Brazilians don't already have their own - which > they > > > might, as they seem pretty fired up). > > > > > > -- > > > Peter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Henry K van Eyken" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 5:25 AM > > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter > 02] > > > > > > > Eric. > > > > > > > > They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to > wade > > > > through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a > > > > discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative > aspects > > > > within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly > Fleabyte's - > > > a > > > > principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to > > > facilitate > > > > by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means > for > > > > becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen. > > > > Bootstrap/Engelbart perceives of a digital augmentation of the > co-operative > > > > aspect, i.e. informed citizens tackling problems and thereby enhancing the > > > WWDN > > > > process of critically evaluating and, where found necessary, reshaping > > > important > > > > aspects of democratic processes and structures. Here I see the > complementary > > > > aspect. > > > > > > > > Question is, do we have - on our forums to begin with - the oomph for > > > > effectively doing our bit in this complementarity? How would we handle > > > things? > > > > Clearly, we have to move beyond chatting. We need a reasonably firmly > > > supported > > > > agenda. Some elements of strength are there, notably the Nexist-centered > > > effort > > > > and, hopefully, the Alliance-forming effort, Maybe that latter effort > might be > > > > molded toward the kind of NIC forming among like-minded institutions. It > may > > > be > > > > from that NIC that a credible leadership comes forward that can also go > after > > > > the kind of financing you talked about. > > > > > > > > Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global > Agora. > > > I > > > > do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. Maybe Peter Jones, with > his > > > eyes > > > > right in the U.K., could find out more and enlighten us here. > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > > > > > Yup. Exactly what I thought of when I saw your proposal. > > > > > > > > > > If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such > > > > > organizations as interested in it, that might well make the > > > > > project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that > > > > > individual countries might want to contribute to, as well. > > > > > > > > > > Lord knows, the goals are laudable enough. > > > > > > > > > > (Note: That's something that needs confirming. Unfortunately, > > > > > one does have to be careful of organizations with high-sounding > > > > > political ideals...) > > > > > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Eric. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it > does > > > > > > have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fascinating concept. If we had a project, I'd rate this a high > > > > > > > priority, if only to gather use cases, motivation, and an > > > > > > > eventual testing ground for the project. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what > manner > > > > > > > > -ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, > > > > > > > > London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide > Democracy > > > > > > > > Network, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan - > > > > > > > > otherwise > > > > > > > > I wouldn't even consider bringing this up. I do believe it a good > > > > > > > > thing > > > > > > > > for small, grassroot organizations to team up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How well are the principals of this organization known in the U.K. > and > > > > > > > > internationally, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may be interested that from the Fleabyte end we are in touch > with > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > organization called Global Agoras, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.globalagoras.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The development is slow here because of "understaffing." Might > some > > > > > > > > people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look > at > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded > > > > > > > > organizations in a way that they become complementary. Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02 > > > > > > > > Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2002 20:12:06 +0100 > > > > > > > > From: John Turnbull > > > > > > > > To: undisclosed-recipients:; > > > > > > > > WORLD WIDE DEMOCRACY NETWORK NEWSLETTER No. 2, SUMMER 2003 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WELCOME! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CONTENTS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Introduction > > > > > > > > 2. WWDN news > > > > > > > > 3. Getting the WWDN up and running > > > > > > > > 4. WWDN?s WSF 2003 Proposal: a summary of the WWDN?s proposal to > run > > > > > > > > a series of workshops (entitled ?Liberating Democratic > Systems?) > > > > > > > > at the next World Social Forum (Porto Alegre, Brazil, January > > > > > > > > 2003). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. INTRODUCTION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The World Wide Democracy Network (WWDN, www.wwdemocracy.org ) has > been > > > > > > > > set up to link people in a process of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many recognise that we are facing a set of complex and urgent > global > > > > > > > > problems, such as widespread inequality, environmental degradation > and > > > > > > > > societal breakdown. Such problems cannot be solved within the > existing > > > > > > > > ?democratic? regimes because their design has evolved to achieve a > > > > > > > > totally different purpose - that of unsustainable economic growth > > > > > > > > coupled with high levels of inequality. It follows that we need to > > > > > > > > rethink our ideas of democracy and citizenship; if we are to build > a > > > > > > > > just and sustainable future, we need a new paradigm of democracy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To borrow from Abraham Lincoln, we need to advance from what we > > > > > > > > currently have: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Government > > > > > > > > OF - the people > > > > > > > > BY - interchangeable sets of political professionals > > > > > > > > FOR - the pursuit of economic growth through transnational > > > > > > > > corporate capitalism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Government > > > > > > > > OF - the people > > > > > > > > BY - thinking, acting and learning together > > > > > > > > FOR - the co-creation of just and sustainable societies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Through the WWDN we will explore how to apply to political > processes > > > > > > > > the insights of soft-systems thinking and complexity theory > developed > > > > > > > > in other fields. These are of fundamental significance in bringing > > > > > > > > about change. It is these insights that teach us that our task is > > > > > > > > essentially one of mutual learning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For more information on the history and purpose of the WWDN, > please > > > > > > > > see WWDN Newsletter No1, March 2002 . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To become a WWDN Co-learner and take part in our online > discussions > > > > > > > > (available soon) please contact us here , remembering to include > your > > > > > > > > name in the body of the message. (Other details, such as address, > > > > > > > > occupation etc. would be welcome, but are not essential.) > > > > > > > > Alternatively, visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. WWDN NEWS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Co-learners > > > > > > > > 55 people have signed up to become WWDN co-learners. The WWDN?s > main > > > > > > > > aim in 2002 is to establish contacts with people and organisations > > > > > > > > interested in developing viable strategies for political change at > all > > > > > > > > levels from local to global. If you would like to join us please > press > > > > > > > > ?reply? (making sure not to reply to all) and type ?co-learner? in > the > > > > > > > > subject line, or visit our website at www.wwdemocracy.org . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Network Associate > > > > > > > > John Turnbull has been appointed Network Associate for the WWDN. > > > > > > > > Formerly a researcher with a firm of management consultants, John > will > > > > > > > > be responsible for the day-to-day administration of the network, > > > > > > > > including managing the contacts database, moderating the > discussion > > > > > > > > forum and editing the quarterly newsletter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. GETTING THE WWDN UP AND RUNNING > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have spent the last couple of months thinking about how we want > the > > > > > > > > Network to function, acting on advice about software and technical > > > > > > > > issues, and learning what works for us and what doesn't. So far, > we > > > > > > > > have a new design for the website, and soon we will be unveiling > the > > > > > > > > WWDN discussion forum. We will also be migrating to the Linux > > > > > > > > operating system, one of the inspirations for the WWDN?s > open-source > > > > > > > > approach. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The response to our request for participants has been very > > > > > > > > encouraging. Our 55 co-learners are from a wide range of > backgrounds, > > > > > > > > including economics, systems thinking and consultancy. However, > this > > > > > > > > kind of background is by no means a requirement - the WWDN is open > to > > > > > > > > anybody who is interested in developing viable strategies for > > > > > > > > political change and working towards a more just and sustainable > > > > > > > > future. (See above for instructions on registering). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our intention is to make the WWDN accessible to as many people as > we > > > > > > > > can. This means publishing our site and our newsletters in as many > > > > > > > > languages as possible. If anybody is interested in undertaking > > > > > > > > translation work (on a voluntary basis), I would be very keen to > hear > > > > > > > > from you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John Turnbull (jt@wwdemocracy.org ) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. A PROPOSAL FOR A 3-DAY PROGRAMME FOR THE WORLD SOCIAL FORUM - > > > > > > > > ?LIBERATING DEMOCRATIC SYSTEMS? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a summary of the proposal for a programme of events we are > > > > > > > > hoping to have considered for the next World Social Forum. The > > > > > > > > proposal is very ambitious and there is no guarantee that it will > be > > > > > > > > accepted in full; however, it gives a good indication of the > direction > > > > > > > > the WWDN is taking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Summary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In his closing words to the second World Social Forum (WSF), held > in > > > > > > > > Porto Alegre, Brazil in February 2002, the Nobel prize-winning > poet > > > > > > > > Jose Saramago issued a challenge: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Everything in this world is discussed, from literature to > ecology, > > > > > > > > from expanding galaxies to the greenhouse effect, from waste > treatment > > > > > > > > to traffic congestion. Yet the democratic system goes undiscussed, > as > > > > > > > > if it were a given, definitively acquired and untouchable by > nature > > > > > > > > until the end of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Well, unless I am mistaken ... among so many other necessary or > > > > > > > > indispensable discussions, there is an urgent need to foster > worldwide > > > > > > > > debate on democracy and the causes of its decline?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The main blockages to radical change, he implied, stem from the > > > > > > > > in-built systemic defects of our so-called democratic systems. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WWDN proposes that the third WSF, to be held again in Porto Alegre > in > > > > > > > > January 2003, responds to Saramago?s challenge through a programme > of > > > > > > > > co-learning designed to enable the participants to explore and > define: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * precisely why it is that the current systems of democracy are > > > > > > > > defective - what is wrong with their design and purposes; and > > > > > > > > * what are the essential components of an alternative > democratic > > > > > > > > system capable of meeting the needs of human societies and of > the > > > > > > > > whole human family in the 21st Century? What, for example, is > the > > > > > > > > nature of the relationship between democratic leadership and > > > > > > > > people power? And how, in practical terms, can such > democracies > > > > > > > > be created? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the basis of a shared understanding on these and related > issues, > > > > > > > > WSF 2003 could launch a global dialogue with two interlocking > > > > > > > > dimensions: a theoretical dimension concerned with the development > of > > > > > > > > coherent models of alternative systems of democracy; and a > practical > > > > > > > > dimension based on the experience of the Participative Budget > > > > > > > > processes in over 100 cities in Brazil and South America, and > > > > > > > > especially in the city of Porto Alegre itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To sum up: the intended outcome of the programme is to respond to > Jose > > > > > > > > Saramago's challenge by initiating a purposeful global dialogue > aimed > > > > > > > > at increasing our shared understanding of what needs to be done to > > > > > > > > remedy the systemic defects of today's democracies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Democracy and democratic education are founded on faith in men, > on > > > > > > > > the belief that they not only can, but should, discuss the > problems of > > > > > > > > their country, their continent, their world, their work, the > problems > > > > > > > > of democracy itself." > > > > > > > > (Paulo Freire, formerly Director of Education for the city of Sao > > > > > > > > Paulo, Brazil, Education: the Practice of Freedom Writers and > Readers > > > > > > > > Co-operative1974.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To read the complete proposal, please visit www.wwdemocracy.org > (the > > > > > > > > '2002 Programme' section). > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > We are sending you this edition of the WWDN newsletter either > because > > > > > > > > you have had contact with the WWDN in the past, or because we > believe > > > > > > > > you would be interested in the WWDN's work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you wish to be removed from the WWDN mailing list, please reply > to > > > > > > > > this message with 'STOP' in the subject field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We apologise if you have received multiple copies of this > newsletter. > > > > > > > > Please let us know if this happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 14:17:27 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 066785700E; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 14:17:26 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A7F195700C for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 14:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H2G009DY6N3Z2@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 14:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 14:34:40 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <002f01c25c36$889ff950$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Greetings, This message to unrev started as a protest to all the flaky politics and goofy 'antiwar' (?) messages -- until this brilliant post came through. Here is an outstanding comment, exposing once-and-for-all the root problems with all the daft global engineering of the criminal 'free-trade' organizations like the WTO and NAFTA. >Now they're >solving this problem by a huge effort to sweep away all the tariffs and >protection and arrangements which previously enabled large numbers of >people and regions to produce and sell things. The freedom of trade has >been made into the supreme sacred value and anything which restricts >the access of the big corporations and banks to resources and markets >is being eliminated. The 'global economy' is a cooked-up farce, man. >A society is made up of many intangible social bonds, ties, commitments >and relations - for example, bonds of familiarity, friendship, trust, >obligation, morality and tradition. This is another incredibly significant remark reinforcing the characteristics of a healthy, independent, and peaceful world. Unfortunately, these qualities are being deliberately abrogated by the failed United Nations, its choir of obtuse sycophants and its insidious drive towards undemocratic world government. Society thrives and develops on proximate relationships that sustain human identity, collaboration, motivation, responsibility and accountability. All beguiling brown-shirt global apparatchiks take notice: local human ecosystems driving independence, tradition, values, organic economics and politics are back in fashion. Pustules of meta-govt like the UN, WTO and the EU are out, way out. Finally, people are waking up to the peril of meta-government and free-trade nonsense. I'm stunned that this is so hard for the 'unrev' to get; world history has proven over-and-over and over-and-over (sic) that these empires create poverty, war and death. The idiotic "We Are the World" supplicants and there misty-eyed global society visions are causing more and more strife. Empires never work and are extraordinarily stupid and dangerous. To prove the point, here is an unbelievably insensitive and dangerous remark from a political leader that 'unrev' globalists probably adore. "We are in many respects an empire both militarily as well as economically and certainly culturally, so what is it we have do? We have to defend ourselves first and foremost." - Hillary R. Clinton, US Senator, Sept 11, 2002. This is so offensive, ethnocentric and criminal it turns the stomach. Can you now understand why empires must 'defend' themselves? Please, unrev, how can this be made any more clear? It is so obvious it hurts. No wonder 'Hil,' longs to be Empress of the World. Lord knows she has enough ignorant minions. Anyway, there are very positive developments on the near horizon. No matter how you line-up on the issue, you must applaud America for the courage and fiber to test the relevancy of the UN. Today, Sept 14, when asked if Iraq deserves 'one more chance,' Bush remarked, 'The UN has one more chance.' Any meta-govt aficionado, as found here on unrev, should be thrilled at this historic opportunity for their beloved UN to assert itself and assure its position in the world community and to prove its relevancy on the world stage. If you want multilateralism, you've got to show the courage and leadership to demand it! The foolish, mealy-mouthed UN created and sustained the mess in Iraq with its 16 paper resolutions, summarily dismissed by the member state and its 'united nation' of Iraq. Let's see if the UN will fish, or cut bait. It might be high time to retire this failed institution, fumigate the bureaucracies, and move forward to a more peaceful and prosperous world of economic and political independence. Thanks for the post and have a pleasant weekend. -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Jack Park Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:41 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor >From: Thommandel@aol.com ><< Relayed by Doug Everingham from an attachment to a message >From: "Alan Kerns" >To: [Economic Reform Australia list] >Subject: Re: [ERANet] Ockham's Razor - Uncertainty and Demonising - Eva >Cox >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 4:12 AM >---------- > >From Eva Cox's radio program >Ockham's Razor -- transcript at >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s658492.htm > or >listening to it (in RealAudio format) from >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/audio/ockham_25082002_2856.ram >> [15 minutes] > > >Ockham's Razor - 16/02/1997 > >Let's Scrap The Economy > >Summary: > >Ted Trainer explains why the most important item on our agenda should >be almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory it's >based on. > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 15:01:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7061E5700E; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.179]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 552555700C for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 15:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1221.diglett.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.113.197] helo=vaio) by imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17qLGQ-0000PT-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:19:42 +0100 Message-ID: <002d01c25c3c$7863e140$f5f5193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <002f01c25c36$889ff950$180ec53f@collaboratory> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:17:09 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > local human > ecosystems driving independence, tradition, values, organic economics > and politics are back in fashion. >Today, Sept 14, when > asked if Iraq deserves 'one more chance,' Bush remarked, 'The UN has one > more chance.' So why is the US not staying 'local' in its approach to Iraq now? It can't be a 'local ecosystem' and imperialist at the same time can it. Your 'arguments' are not consistent. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Maloney" To: Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 10:34 PM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor > Greetings, > > This message to unrev started as a protest to all the flaky politics and > goofy 'antiwar' (?) messages -- until this brilliant post came through. > > > Here is an outstanding comment, exposing once-and-for-all the root > problems with all the daft global engineering of the criminal > 'free-trade' organizations like the WTO and NAFTA. > > >Now they're > >solving this problem by a huge effort to sweep away all the tariffs and > > >protection and arrangements which previously enabled large numbers of > >people and regions to produce and sell things. The freedom of trade has > > >been made into the supreme sacred value and anything which restricts > >the access of the big corporations and banks to resources and markets > >is being eliminated. > > The 'global economy' is a cooked-up farce, man. > > >A society is made up of many intangible social bonds, ties, commitments > > >and relations - for example, bonds of familiarity, friendship, trust, > >obligation, morality and tradition. > > This is another incredibly significant remark reinforcing the > characteristics of a healthy, independent, and peaceful world. > > Unfortunately, these qualities are being deliberately abrogated by the > failed United Nations, its choir of obtuse sycophants and its insidious > drive towards undemocratic world government. > > Society thrives and develops on proximate relationships that sustain > human identity, collaboration, motivation, responsibility and > accountability. > > All beguiling brown-shirt global apparatchiks take notice: local human > ecosystems driving independence, tradition, values, organic economics > and politics are back in fashion. Pustules of meta-govt like the UN, WTO > and the EU are out, way out. > > Finally, people are waking up to the peril of meta-government and > free-trade nonsense. I'm stunned that this is so hard for the 'unrev' to > get; world history has proven over-and-over and over-and-over (sic) that > these empires create poverty, war and death. > > The idiotic "We Are the World" supplicants and there misty-eyed global > society visions are causing more and more strife. Empires never work and > are extraordinarily stupid and dangerous. > > To prove the point, here is an unbelievably insensitive and dangerous > remark from a political leader that 'unrev' globalists probably adore. > > "We are in many respects an empire both militarily as well as > economically and certainly culturally, so what is it we have do? We have > to defend ourselves first and foremost." > > - Hillary R. Clinton, US Senator, Sept 11, 2002. > > This is so offensive, ethnocentric and criminal it turns the stomach. > > Can you now understand why empires must 'defend' themselves? Please, > unrev, how can this be made any more clear? It is so obvious it hurts. > No wonder 'Hil,' longs to be Empress of the World. Lord knows she has > enough ignorant minions. > > Anyway, there are very positive developments on the near horizon. > > No matter how you line-up on the issue, you must applaud America for the > courage and fiber to test the relevancy of the UN. Today, Sept 14, when > asked if Iraq deserves 'one more chance,' Bush remarked, 'The UN has one > more chance.' > > Any meta-govt aficionado, as found here on unrev, should be thrilled at > this historic opportunity for their beloved UN to assert itself and > assure its position in the world community and to prove its relevancy on > the world stage. If you want multilateralism, you've got to show the > courage and leadership to demand it! > > The foolish, mealy-mouthed UN created and sustained the mess in Iraq > with its 16 paper resolutions, summarily dismissed by the member state > and its 'united nation' of Iraq. Let's see if the UN will fish, or cut > bait. > > It might be high time to retire this failed institution, fumigate the > bureaucracies, and move forward to a more peaceful and prosperous world > of economic and political independence. > > Thanks for the post and have a pleasant weekend. > > -jtm > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Jack Park > Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:41 AM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor > > > > >From: Thommandel@aol.com > ><< Relayed by Doug Everingham from an attachment to a message > >From: "Alan Kerns" > >To: [Economic Reform Australia list] > >Subject: Re: [ERANet] Ockham's Razor - Uncertainty and Demonising - Eva > > >Cox > >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 4:12 AM > >---------- > > >From Eva Cox's radio program > >Ockham's Razor -- transcript at > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s658492.htm > > or > >listening to it (in RealAudio format) from > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/audio/ockham_25082002_2856.ram > > >> [15 minutes] > > > > > >Ockham's Razor - 16/02/1997 > > > >Let's Scrap The Economy > > > >Summary: > > > >Ted Trainer explains why the most important item on our agenda should > >be almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory it's > >based on. > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 16:43:48 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id F207A5700F; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 975095700E for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 16:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H2G0094TDF217@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:01:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:01:02 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor In-reply-to: <002d01c25c3c$7863e140$f5f5193e@vaio> To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <000001c25c4a$fb07e890$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Peter -- The US is not staying local because knee-jerk globalists asked for a multi-lateral approach. Ho-hum. As if it will make a difference... America is working within the sham UN system - for now. Just like your post implies, damned if you do, damned if you don't. The only imperialist in the picture is the cowardly criminal Kofi Annan and his failed organization. Because of his phony resolutions, incompetence, sanctimony and feeble grasp of world events and human nature, things are going to get very messy in Baghdad once the weather cools off. The consequences of UN failures and negligence has yet again turned the world on itself. It is a shameful disgrace. It flat-out doesn't work. Please give us a break -- and some posts with merit. -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Peter Jones Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 3:17 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor > local human > ecosystems driving independence, tradition, values, organic economics > and politics are back in fashion. >Today, Sept 14, when > asked if Iraq deserves 'one more chance,' Bush remarked, 'The UN has >one more chance.' So why is the US not staying 'local' in its approach to Iraq now? It can't be a 'local ecosystem' and imperialist at the same time can it. Your 'arguments' are not consistent. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Maloney" To: Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 10:34 PM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 17:02:38 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4FC4857010; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 117355700F for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jack ([12.234.214.35]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020915002046.EWYA26805.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@jack> for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 00:20:46 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20020914171033.00af03f0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 17:19:53 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor In-Reply-To: <000001c25c4a$fb07e890$180ec53f@collaboratory> References: <002d01c25c3c$7863e140$f5f5193e@vaio> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org At 05:01 PM 9/14/02 -0700, you wrote: >The only imperialist in the picture is the cowardly criminal Kofi Annan >and his failed organization. Because of his phony resolutions, >incompetence, sanctimony and feeble grasp of world events and human >nature, things are going to get very messy in Baghdad once the weather >cools off. > >The consequences of UN failures and negligence has yet again turned the >world on itself. It is a shameful disgrace. It flat-out doesn't work. > >Please give us a break -- and some posts with merit. John, I was pretty sure it's coming to this. You simply must stop calling people names and using combative argument structures here. When you say: "Please give us a break and some posts with merit", who are you talking to? Yourself? The problem is this: you read things the way you want to read them, then you fire back. You have attacked me personally enough times that it's enormously entertaining now. Particularly when I toss in a "bone" you like and you thank me for the post. You simply don't understand that this is a forum where the issues Douglas Engelbart brought up are open for discussion -- reasoned discussion, not the name-calling diatribes you toss out. I really wonder how members of your knowledge management tribe are going to appreciate finding out that their leader isn't capable of carrying on civil discourse in public places. If you must put sentences here that embarrass the some of us in public, such as the reference you made to Kofi Annan, then I think it will be time to ask you to leave this forum once and forever. It's not that your underlying viewpoints are objectionable, for they are not. It's just your total lack of ability to put forth a civil response in an otherwise honest forum. Jack Park From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 19:28:47 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 48AF457010; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:28:47 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6241C5700F for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-119a903.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.36.3] helo=gmob) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17qPQu-0000O5-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 22:46:48 -0400 From: "Graham Stalker-Wilde" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 22:46:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20020914171033.00af03f0@thinkalong.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org We're not going to agree on this. Too many diverse opinions, too many political agendas. I could probably sit down with any one of you and have a fine meal, but the amount of bickering here is just kinda funny. Which just might be the unrev point... -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Jack Park Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 8:20 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor At 05:01 PM 9/14/02 -0700, you wrote: >The only imperialist in the picture is the cowardly criminal Kofi Annan >and his failed organization. Because of his phony resolutions, >incompetence, sanctimony and feeble grasp of world events and human >nature, things are going to get very messy in Baghdad once the weather >cools off. > >The consequences of UN failures and negligence has yet again turned the >world on itself. It is a shameful disgrace. It flat-out doesn't work. > >Please give us a break -- and some posts with merit. John, I was pretty sure it's coming to this. You simply must stop calling people names and using combative argument structures here. When you say: "Please give us a break and some posts with merit", who are you talking to? Yourself? The problem is this: you read things the way you want to read them, then you fire back. You have attacked me personally enough times that it's enormously entertaining now. Particularly when I toss in a "bone" you like and you thank me for the post. You simply don't understand that this is a forum where the issues Douglas Engelbart brought up are open for discussion -- reasoned discussion, not the name-calling diatribes you toss out. I really wonder how members of your knowledge management tribe are going to appreciate finding out that their leader isn't capable of carrying on civil discourse in public places. If you must put sentences here that embarrass the some of us in public, such as the reference you made to Kofi Annan, then I think it will be time to ask you to leave this forum once and forever. It's not that your underlying viewpoints are objectionable, for they are not. It's just your total lack of ability to put forth a civil response in an otherwise honest forum. Jack Park From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 14 19:46:37 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 318D257010; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:46:37 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts8.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.52]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 81E905700F for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 19:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.111]) by tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020915030444.MULR28662.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:04:44 -0400 Message-ID: <3D83F7E5.5B3D883A@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2002 23:00:53 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Recasting Ockham's Razor Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Finally got around to finishing review of Judge Bork's book, "Coercing Virtue." In conclusion it might be viewed as Ockham's razor in a different light - and perhaps better address Graham Stalker-Wilde's sentiments. For me, the book has helped to gain a somewhat improved insight in what the path ahead should be. http://www.fleabyte.org/index.html#rf-22 Henry From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 02:41:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9947A57010; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0DD985700F for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 45263 invoked from network); 15 Sep 2002 09:58:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (10.1.17.76) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 15 Sep 2002 09:58:35 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 02:59:54 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Jack, the link to the "Scrapping the Economy" issue is http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s50.htm The link you gave leads to "Uncertainty and Demonising", which is an excellent article as well. The points she makes match my concerns about polarization and it's interference with understanding and problem solving. Most attempts to solve problems appear to launch themselves in the middle - "we know what the problem is and here is how we should solve it" rather than at the beginning - "the current situation is perceived as undesirable by some, what are the real issues and perceptions involved?" As an aside, my experience indicates that once an issue has polarized, it is likely nearly to the point of certainty that neither side has a handle on anything resembling truth. Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Jack Park Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2002 11:41 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor >From: Thommandel@aol.com ><< Relayed by Doug Everingham from an attachment to a message >From: "Alan Kerns" >To: [Economic Reform Australia list] >Subject: Re: [ERANet] Ockham's Razor - Uncertainty and Demonising - Eva Cox >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 4:12 AM >---------- > >From Eva Cox's radio program >Ockham's Razor -- transcript at >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s658492.htm > or listening >to it (in RealAudio format) from >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/audio/ockham_25082002_2856.ram > [15 >minutes] > > >Ockham's Razor - 16/02/1997 > >Let's Scrap The Economy > >Summary: > >Ted Trainer explains why the most important item on our agenda should be >almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory it's based >on. > >Transcript: > >Robyn Williams: The economy is on everybody's mind, as usual, sometimes to >the exclusion of most other affairs. So you'll be diverted, perhaps, to >learn that the title of this week's Ockham's Razor talk is "Let's Scrap the >Economy." No prisoners taken today. > >Well Dr Ted Trainer lectures in Social Work at the University of New South >Wales, and here's his case for abolition. > >Ted Trainer: I want to explain why the most important item on our agenda >should be almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory >it's based on. > >Firstly, this economy is obviously not solving our problems. In the last >four decades, real income per person in rich countries like Australia has >more or less trebled. Even in the recessed 1980s, Australia's GDP increased >by one-third in real terms. Now one would have thought that such large >increases would have enabled us to totally eliminate problems, such as debt, >insufficient casualty wards and especially poverty. But in fact it's >difficult to nominate one social or economic problem that's not become much >more serious. Unemployment, inequality and poverty increased, and we now >have perhaps 40,000 homeless people in Australia. In the 1980s Australia's >rural debt and our foreign debt both multiplied by about ten. In addition, >just about all indices of social breakdown and the experienced quality of >life deteriorated. > >It's not just that a system with that record is not likely to suddenly start >providing well for all. This economy causes the problems now literally >threatening the destruction of our ecosystems and our social cohesion in >coming decades. > >Consider firstly the market system. Markets do some things well and there >might be an important role for them in a satisfactory economy. But at >present, market forces are given far too much power to determine production, >distribution and development. It's no exaggeration to say that most of the >human misery and environmental damage in the world is directly due to the >operation of market forces. > >Access to the world's resources is grossly unjust. One fifth of the world's >people are taking and using up about 80% of all the resources produced and >two to three billion people are seriously deprived. While we squander >resources on affluent consumer lifestyles, between one and two billion >people have insufficient food and unsafe drinking water. As a result, more >than 30,000 people die every day. > >The main reason for this extreme deprivation and injustice is that the >global economy is a market system, and in a market most of the available >resources go to those who can pay most for them. That's why Australia has an >average energy consumption that is 18 times the average for the poorest half >of the world's people. And it's why more than 500-million tonnes of grain - >about one-third of the world's total production - is fed to animals in rich >countries every year to produce meat, while millions in the Third World are >hungry. > >Even more important, is the fact that market forces draw Third World >productive capacity into producing things to export to rich countries, when >anyone can see that those resources should be used by Third World people to >produce for themselves the basic goods they need. The most disturbing >example of this is the vast area of the best Third World land growing crops >to export to our supermarkets. > >Hence, we see the essential characteristic of conventional growth and >trickle-down development. That is, the fact that it results in development >which is almost entirely inappropriate to the needs of most Third World >people. When what's developed is determined by market forces, by what will >be most profitable to those with money to invest and money to buy products, >then the inevitable result will be development of the wrong >things; development mostly of what will benefit the rich. In the last decade >we have entered an era in which these impoverishing effects of the market >will rapidly accelerate, because we're now seeing the "globalisation" of the >world economy. Since the 1970s it has become >increasingly difficult for corporations and banks to find enough profitable >investment outlets. Now they're solving this problem by a huge effort to >sweep away all the tariffs and protection and arrangements which previously >enabled large numbers of people and regions to produce and sell things. The >freedom of trade has been made into the supreme sacred value and anything >which restricts the access of the big corporations and banks to resources >and markets is being eliminated. > >Why are the economic and political leaders of all countries eagerly going >along with this push for globalisation and absolute freedom of trade, fully >opening their societies to the predations of the transnational corporations >and banks? The answer is, because they have studied conventional economics >and the only way they know to try to solve their problems is to "get the >economy going", to crank up more production and consumption, and of course >the best way to get more business turnover happening is to give the >corporations even more freedom to buy and sell. The sane alternative is >never considered: that is, to make sure that Australia's abundant land, >labour and capital is fully applied to producing what we need for a very >satisfactory and secure existence, sharing the work, letting in only those >foreign corporations that will produce what we want, trading only a little, >to earn the export income needed to import only those things we can't >produce easily. > >The second major criticism of our economy concerns the destructive relation >between the market and society. A number of economic historians, such as >Polanyi, have pointed out that the more the economy prospers, the more that >desirable social bonds and cohesion are undermined. > >A society is made up of many intangible social bonds, ties, commitments and >relations - for example, bonds of familiarity, friendship, trust, >obligation, morality and tradition. These social values are contradicted by >the values and attitudes that the market requires. In a market situation >your attention is focused on maximising your individual gain and guarding >against exploitation. The market situation does not encourage you to think >about what is good for the other person or for society. The more we turn to >market relations, the less emphasis we're putting on relations that build >social concern and cohesion. As Polanyi and others have explained, in all >pre-capitalist societies, markets and the maximisation of individual income >were either of trivial significance or did not exist at all. Social factors, >such as moral codes, religion and tradition were the important criteria >determining production, distribution and development. > >This clash between the economy and society becomes obvious when we ask what >would happen if we allowed production and distribution within a family to be >determined by what would maximise sales or cash income. If Mum started >making the toast and then selling it to the highest bidder, the economic >efficiency of the domestic scene would be greatly improved, but the kids >wouldn't get much toast because Dad can bid much more than they can. In no >time, the desirable social relations which ensure that Grandpa can have some >toast, even though he is economically useless, would be replaced by >calculations about individual cash advantage. In other words, merely >economic calculations of individual advantage would drive out the social >relations and concerns whereby in a good society we do many things because >they are right, or nice, or just, without regard to whether or not they're >profitable or economically efficient. Hence we can understand why Polanyi >emphasised that the self-interest which market relations are about will >literally destroy society and its ecosystems if they're not kept under close >control. > >I come now to the most serious of all the faults built into this economy. >This is simply the mindless commitment to growth in a world of limited >resources. You cannot go on and on forever increasing output on a planet >with limited energy, mineral, biological and environmental resources. But >conventional economists on the Left and the Right refuse to think about >this. > >It's recently been estimated that each person in Sydney requires 4.5 >hectares of productive land. If all the world's people were to live as >people in Sydney do, we would need three times all the productive land on >the planet and for the expected world population of 11-billion by about >2070, we'd need six times that area. Clearly it's impossible for all to live >as we do. > >The greenhouse problem provides another powerful argument. The >Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has said that we must cut global >carbon emissions by 60% to 80%. If we cut it by 60% and share the remaining >energy among the 11-billion people expected after 2060, each of us would >have to get by on only one-eighteenth of the energy we now average in >Australia. Most people have no idea that we must face up to such huge >reductions in consumption if we are to solve the big problems. > >But we have an economy which cannot tolerate any reduction in the volume of >production or sales. In fact unless output grows at more than 3% per annum, >there are serious problems, especially of unemployment. It is obviously not >an economy that could enable us to just produce sufficient to provide us all >with good lifestyles, or a stable minimum amount of resource use and work. > >If you examine potentially recoverable resource estimates for minerals and >fuels, you will find that if all people were to live as we in rich countries >do, then most resources would be totally exhausted in something like four >decades. These have been some of the lines of argument which I think show >that there is no possibility of all people rising to anything like the >living standards people in Australia take for granted today. > >During the 1980s Australia had about 3.2% per annum growth, but this was far >from sufficient because all our problems became more serious. Let's assume >4% would be sufficient for a healthy economy, and let's assume we keep that >up to 2060, and that by then all the world's people will have risen to the >living standards we would then have. Do you realise that world economic >output would then be 220 times what it is today? Even if the world as a >whole were only to average 3% growth from here on, then by 2060 total world >output would be eight times what it is now. I have just explained that there >are convincing reasons for concluding that the present amount of world >output is totally unsustainable, let alone any multiple of it. > >There is now a substantial and growing literature on the basic form a >sustainable society must take, given the limits to growth analysis of our >situation. An almost completely new economy must be eventually developed, a >Third Way, quite different from the capitalist and the big-state socialist >ways. It must be made up of many small scale, highly self-sufficient local >economies, involving much simpler and less affluent lifestyles than we have >now, and much more co-operative arrangements. There could be a role for >market forces and free enterprise in the form of mostly small businesses, >but these would have to be under strict social control. Above all, it would >have to be a zero growth or steady state economy, in which we can just >produce enough for a high quality of life for all without constantly >increasing production or consumption. > >Among the ideas being discussed and implemented are locating small market >gardens throughout cities, planting our suburbs with edible landscapes that >will provide free food and materials, decentralising much production to >small local firms, many of which might operate in craft ways, having our own >town and suburban banks with elected boards ensuring that our savings can be >invested in enriching our own suburbs, moving much economic activity out of >the cash sector and into the realm of gifts, surplus swapping and >contributions to working bees, having suburban market days and running many >things via local voluntary committees.0 > >I have no doubt we could easily organise a much higher quality of life at a >much more relaxed pace than most of us have now, with no reduction in the >availability of modern medical or other important technologies, if most >people saw the desirability of restructuring towns and neighbourhoods along >the lines now being pioneered by the global Ecovillage and Permaculture >movements. > >It is astounding that although the limits to growth argument has been around >for about 25 years, there is almost no public discussion of it in Australia >today. The historian Toynbee analysed the rise and fall of civilisations in >terms of their capacity to respond to challenge. What can we say about our >prospects when we show almost no ability to even recognise that an economy >committed to affluence and growth is totally incompatible with ecological or >social sustainability. > >Robyn Williams: Ted Trainer lectures in the Department of Social Work at the >University of New South Wales. If you'd like to read more about the details >of a sustainable society according to him, you can get hold of his two >recent books: one is "The Conserver Society" published by Zed Books; and the >other is Towards a Sustainable Economy, by Envirobooks. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 06:57:24 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BABBA57011; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 06:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (ms4.lga2.nytimes.com [64.15.247.148]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 117C557010 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 06:57:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from email4.lga2.nytimes.com (email4 [10.0.0.169]) by ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 794C15A56E for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by email4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix, from userid 202) id 832CDC403; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:08:57 -0400 (EDT) From: garyrichmond@rcn.com To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe Message-Id: <20020915140857.832CDC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. Dasher--demonstrations and download. garyrichmond@rcn.com A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe September 12, 2002 By ANNE EISENBERG PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often use their gaze instead. Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer equipped with an eye-tracking system. Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by eye. Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at successive areas on the screen when writing. "Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said. "That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher, uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street, driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what often looks and feels like an onscreen game. Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start, Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run down the column and locate the first desired letter, say the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen. Then the software predicts the most likely successor to join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped by the software, which poses likely options to complete "hel" like "hello." After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to 25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had five times the error rate of Dasher users. John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of typing for people who cannot use their limbs. "This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he said. "Twenty-five words is really something." The software is free and can be downloaded at www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34 words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer screens, Dr. MacKay said. For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so that the software would be familiar with its style. Then people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining 10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like "One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using their gaze to create the text. The results were compared with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation. The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher with the gaze-tracking device. "Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen and choose each letter." But he said he expected that Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and sentences." Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a physical switch or pausing over a key," he said. But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also had reservations about the display, which he thought might tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives which are constantly changing," he said. Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said. "We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly will be comfortable." Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly," he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the direction you want to go and then heading there at a moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can switch to a Ferrari." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 07:12:36 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 020A757011; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 07:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7DF2C57010 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 07:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jack ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020915143044.OECP26988.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@jack> for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:30:44 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20020915072833.00a28f00@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 07:29:46 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe In-Reply-To: <20020915140857.832CDC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Dasher is open source, c,c++, tcl, GPL license. Project is found at http://sourceforge.net/projects/dasher/ Thanks, Gary! Jack At 10:08 AM 9/15/02 -0400, Gary Richmond wrote: >This article from NYTimes.com >has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. > > >Dasher--demonstrations and download. > >garyrichmond@rcn.com > > >A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe > >September 12, 2002 >By ANNE EISENBERG > > > > > > >PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics >or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often >use their gaze instead. > >Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys >pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the >direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer >equipped with an eye-tracking system. > >Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists >at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this >laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by >eye. > >Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's >Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said >that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at >successive areas on the screen when writing. > >"Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said. >"That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher, >uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack >for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street, >driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what >often looks and feels like an onscreen game. > >Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the >researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is >reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start, >Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on >the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run >down the column and locate the first desired letter, say >the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen >zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and >the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen. > >Then the software predicts the most likely successor to >join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible >candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose >the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped >by the software, which poses likely options to complete >"hel" like "hello." > >After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to >25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for >users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had >five times the error rate of Dasher users. > >John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT >University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing >systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of >typing for people who cannot use their limbs. > >"This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he >said. "Twenty-five words is really something." > >The software is free and can be downloaded at >www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be >controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed >by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including >those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye >tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the >steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34 >words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may >one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer >screens, Dr. MacKay said. > >For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and >his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane >Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so >that the software would be familiar with its style. Then >people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining >10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like >"One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the >ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them >at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using >their gaze to create the text. The results were compared >with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen >keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation. > >The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by >EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the >company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher >with the gaze-tracking device. > >"Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people >may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen >and choose each letter." But he said he expected that >Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like >driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see >words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and >sentences." > >Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the >University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen >keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may >be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with >fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a >physical switch or pausing over a key," he said. > >But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full >range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also >had reservations about the display, which he thought might >tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives >which are constantly changing," he said. > >Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would >adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments >to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher >are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said. >"We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need >information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly >will be comfortable." > >Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use >Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly," >he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the >direction you want to go and then heading there at a >moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a >lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can >switch to a Ferrari." > >http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=103309 >8937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0 From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 08:49:14 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9062057011; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 08:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts12.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.56]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA6B457010 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 08:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.134]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020915160716.IZRH4068.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:07:16 -0400 Message-ID: <3D84AF4E.264E89F4@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:03:26 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe References: <20020915140857.832CDC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------89D1BF2BEAEBCEB8F909DACF" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------89D1BF2BEAEBCEB8F909DACF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary. You might like the little Dasher gif found at http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-14.html#2L We had been following this story for some time, see http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-8.html#2AO You'll find there also references to some other input systems Henry P.S. If I am tooting our own horn a little bit, it is because Fleabyte is trying very hard to create a connection between people and digital augmentation. garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote: > This article from NYTimes.com > has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. > > Dasher--demonstrations and download. > > garyrichmond@rcn.com > > A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe > > September 12, 2002 > By ANNE EISENBERG > > > > PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics > or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often > use their gaze instead. > > Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys > pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the > direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer > equipped with an eye-tracking system. > > Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists > at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this > laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by > eye. > > Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's > Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said > that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at > successive areas on the screen when writing. > > "Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said. > "That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher, > uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack > for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street, > driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what > often looks and feels like an onscreen game. > > Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the > researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is > reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start, > Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on > the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run > down the column and locate the first desired letter, say > the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen > zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and > the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen. > > Then the software predicts the most likely successor to > join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible > candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose > the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped > by the software, which poses likely options to complete > "hel" like "hello." > > After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to > 25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for > users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had > five times the error rate of Dasher users. > > John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT > University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing > systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of > typing for people who cannot use their limbs. > > "This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he > said. "Twenty-five words is really something." > > The software is free and can be downloaded at > www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be > controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed > by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including > those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye > tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the > steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34 > words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may > one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer > screens, Dr. MacKay said. > > For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and > his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane > Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so > that the software would be familiar with its style. Then > people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining > 10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like > "One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the > ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them > at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using > their gaze to create the text. The results were compared > with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen > keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation. > > The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by > EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the > company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher > with the gaze-tracking device. > > "Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people > may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen > and choose each letter." But he said he expected that > Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like > driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see > words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and > sentences." > > Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the > University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen > keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may > be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with > fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a > physical switch or pausing over a key," he said. > > But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full > range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also > had reservations about the display, which he thought might > tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives > which are constantly changing," he said. > > Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would > adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments > to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher > are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said. > "We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need > information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly > will be comfortable." > > Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use > Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly," > he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the > direction you want to go and then heading there at a > moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a > lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can > switch to a Ferrari." > > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0 > > HOW TO ADVERTISE > --------------------------------- > For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters > or other creative advertising opportunities with The > New York Times on the Web, please contact > onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media > kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo > > For general information about NYTimes.com, write to > help@nytimes.com. > > Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company --------------89D1BF2BEAEBCEB8F909DACF Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary.

You might like the little Dasher gif found at
http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-14.html#2L

We had been following this story for some time, see
http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-8.html#2AO

You'll find there also references to some other input systems

Henry
 

P.S. If I am tooting our own horn a little bit, it is because Fleabyte is trying very hard to create a connection between people and digital augmentation.

garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote:

This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com.

Dasher--demonstrations and download.

garyrichmond@rcn.com

A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe

September 12, 2002
By ANNE EISENBERG
 
 

PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics
or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often
use their gaze instead.

Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys
pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the
direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer
equipped with an eye-tracking system.

Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists
at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this
laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by
eye.

Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's
Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said
that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at
successive areas on the screen when writing.

"Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said.
"That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher,
uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack
for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street,
driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what
often looks and feels like an onscreen game.

Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the
researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is
reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start,
Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on
the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run
down the column and locate the first desired letter, say
the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen
zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and
the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen.

Then the software predicts the most likely successor to
join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible
candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose
the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped
by the software, which poses likely options to complete
"hel" like "hello."

After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to
25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for
users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had
five times the error rate of Dasher users.

John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT
University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing
systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of
typing for people who cannot use their limbs.

"This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he
said. "Twenty-five words is really something."

The software is free and can be downloaded at
www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be
controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed
by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including
those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye
tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the
steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34
words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may
one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer
screens, Dr. MacKay said.

For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and
his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane
Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so
that the software would be familiar with its style. Then
people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining
10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like
"One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the
ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them
at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using
their gaze to create the text. The results were compared
with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen
keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation.

The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by
EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the
company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher
with the gaze-tracking device.

"Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people
may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen
and choose each letter." But he said he expected that
Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like
driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see
words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and
sentences."

Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the
University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen
keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may
be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with
fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a
physical switch or pausing over a key," he said.

But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full
range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also
had reservations about the display, which he thought might
tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives
which are constantly changing," he said.

Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would
adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments
to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher
are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said.
"We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need
information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly
will be comfortable."

Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use
Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly,"
he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the
direction you want to go and then heading there at a
moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a
lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can
switch to a Ferrari."

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0

HOW TO ADVERTISE
---------------------------------
For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters
or other creative advertising opportunities with The
New York Times on the Web, please contact
onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media
kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo

For general information about NYTimes.com, write to
help@nytimes.com.

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

--------------89D1BF2BEAEBCEB8F909DACF-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 08:54:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7007957011; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 08:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.183]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB00E56FF2 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 08:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.134]) by tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020915161247.RTOF23500.tomts21-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:12:47 -0400 Message-ID: <3D84B099.81D91F58@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:08:57 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe References: <20020915140857.832CDC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> <3D84AF4E.264E89F4@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7391890BE8A556507BF3CC0E" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------7391890BE8A556507BF3CC0E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not trying hard enough, apparently. Reference should be http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-15.html#2L :( Henry K van Eyken wrote: > Gary. > > You might like the little Dasher gif found at > http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-14.html#2L > > We had been following this story for some time, see > http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-8.html#2AO > > You'll find there also references to some other input systems > > Henry > > > P.S. If I am tooting our own horn a little bit, it is because Fleabyte > is trying very hard to create a connection between people and digital > augmentation. > > garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote: > >> This article from NYTimes.com >> has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. >> >> Dasher--demonstrations and download. >> >> garyrichmond@rcn.com >> >> A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe >> >> September 12, 2002 >> By ANNE EISENBERG >> >> >> >> PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics >> or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often >> use their gaze instead. >> >> Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys >> pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the >> direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer >> equipped with an eye-tracking system. >> >> Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists >> at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this >> laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by >> eye. >> >> Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's >> Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said >> that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at >> successive areas on the screen when writing. >> >> "Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said. >> "That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher, >> uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack >> for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street, >> driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what >> often looks and feels like an onscreen game. >> >> Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the >> researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is >> reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start, >> Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on >> the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run >> down the column and locate the first desired letter, say >> the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen >> zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and >> the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen. >> >> Then the software predicts the most likely successor to >> join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible >> candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose >> the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped >> by the software, which poses likely options to complete >> "hel" like "hello." >> >> After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to >> 25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for >> users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had >> five times the error rate of Dasher users. >> >> John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT >> University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing >> systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of >> typing for people who cannot use their limbs. >> >> "This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he >> said. "Twenty-five words is really something." >> >> The software is free and can be downloaded at >> www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be >> controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed >> by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including >> those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye >> tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the >> steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34 >> words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may >> one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer >> screens, Dr. MacKay said. >> >> For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and >> his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane >> Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so >> that the software would be familiar with its style. Then >> people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining >> 10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like >> "One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the >> ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them >> at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using >> their gaze to create the text. The results were compared >> with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen >> keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation. >> >> The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by >> EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the >> company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher >> with the gaze-tracking device. >> >> "Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people >> may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen >> and choose each letter." But he said he expected that >> Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like >> driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see >> words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and >> sentences." >> >> Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the >> University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen >> keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may >> be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with >> fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a >> physical switch or pausing over a key," he said. >> >> But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full >> range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also >> had reservations about the display, which he thought might >> tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives >> which are constantly changing," he said. >> >> Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would >> adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments >> to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher >> are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said. >> "We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need >> information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly >> will be comfortable." >> >> Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use >> Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly," >> he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the >> direction you want to go and then heading there at a >> moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a >> lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can >> switch to a Ferrari." >> >> http://www.nytimes.co >> /2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0 >> >> HOW TO ADVERTISE >> --------------------------------- >> For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters >> or other creative advertising opportunities with The >> New York Times on the Web, please contact >> onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media >> kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo >> >> For general information about NYTimes.com, write to >> help@nytimes.com. >> >> Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company > --------------7391890BE8A556507BF3CC0E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not trying hard enough, apparently. Reference should be
http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-15.html#2L

:(

Henry K van Eyken wrote:

Gary.

You might like the little Dasher gif found at
http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-14.html#2L

We had been following this story for some time, see
http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-8.html#2AO

You'll find there also references to some other input systems

Henry
 

P.S. If I am tooting our own horn a little bit, it is because Fleabyte is trying very hard to create a connection between people and digital augmentation.

garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote:

This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com.

Dasher--demonstrations and download.

garyrichmond@rcn.com

A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe

September 12, 2002
By ANNE EISENBERG
 
 

PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics
or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often
use their gaze instead.

Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys
pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the
direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer
equipped with an eye-tracking system.

Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists
at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this
laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by
eye.

Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's
Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said
that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at
successive areas on the screen when writing.

"Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said.
"That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher,
uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack
for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street,
driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what
often looks and feels like an onscreen game.

Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the
researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is
reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start,
Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on
the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run
down the column and locate the first desired letter, say
the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen
zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and
the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen.

Then the software predicts the most likely successor to
join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible
candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose
the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped
by the software, which poses likely options to complete
"hel" like "hello."

After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to
25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for
users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had
five times the error rate of Dasher users.

John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT
University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing
systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of
typing for people who cannot use their limbs.

"This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he
said. "Twenty-five words is really something."

The software is free and can be downloaded at
www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be
controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed
by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including
those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye
tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the
steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34
words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may
one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer
screens, Dr. MacKay said.

For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and
his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane
Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so
that the software would be familiar with its style. Then
people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining
10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like
"One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the
ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them
at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using
their gaze to create the text. The results were compared
with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen
keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation.

The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by
EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the
company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher
with the gaze-tracking device.

"Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people
may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen
and choose each letter." But he said he expected that
Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like
driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see
words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and
sentences."

Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the
University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen
keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may
be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with
fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a
physical switch or pausing over a key," he said.

But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full
range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also
had reservations about the display, which he thought might
tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives
which are constantly changing," he said.

Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would
adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments
to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher
are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said.
"We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need
information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly
will be comfortable."

Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use
Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly,"
he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the
direction you want to go and then heading there at a
moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a
lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can
switch to a Ferrari."

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0

HOW TO ADVERTISE
---------------------------------
For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters
or other creative advertising opportunities with The
New York Times on the Web, please contact
onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media
kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo

For general information about NYTimes.com, write to
help@nytimes.com.

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

--------------7391890BE8A556507BF3CC0E-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 09:02:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id CB50757010; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts12.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.56]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0303156FF2 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 09:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.134]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020915162057.JHJJ4068.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:20:57 -0400 Message-ID: <3D84B283.E0E6CB51@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 12:17:07 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe References: <20020915140857.832CDC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> <3D84AF4E.264E89F4@sympatico.ca> <3D84B099.81D91F58@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------442B3D65E48EF0AF0200D203" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------442B3D65E48EF0AF0200D203 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... and http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-9.html#2AQ Geez, I am getting to be unfit for this job. Henry Henry K van Eyken wrote: > Not trying hard enough, apparently. Reference should be > http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-15.html#2L > > :( > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > >> Gary. >> >> You might like the little Dasher gif found at >> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-14.html#2L >> >> We had been following this story for some time, see >> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-8.html#2AO >> >> You'll find there also references to some other input systems >> >> Henry >> >> >> P.S. If I am tooting our own horn a little bit, it is because >> Fleabyte is trying very hard to create a connection between people >> and digital augmentation. >> >> garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote: >> >> > This article from NYTimes.com >> > has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. >> > >> > Dasher--demonstrations and download. >> > >> > garyrichmond@rcn.com >> > >> > A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe >> > >> > September 12, 2002 >> > By ANNE EISENBERG >> > >> > >> > >> > PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics >> > or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often >> > use their gaze instead. >> > >> > Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys >> > pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the >> > direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer >> > equipped with an eye-tracking system. >> > >> > Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists >> > at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this >> > laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by >> > eye. >> > >> > Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's >> > Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said >> > that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at >> > successive areas on the screen when writing. >> > >> > "Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said. >> > "That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher, >> > uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack >> > for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street, >> > driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what >> > often looks and feels like an onscreen game. >> > >> > Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the >> > researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is >> > reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start, >> > Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on >> > the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run >> > down the column and locate the first desired letter, say >> > the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen >> > zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and >> > the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen. >> > >> > Then the software predicts the most likely successor to >> > join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible >> > candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose >> > the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped >> > by the software, which poses likely options to complete >> > "hel" like "hello." >> > >> > After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to >> > 25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for >> > users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had >> > five times the error rate of Dasher users. >> > >> > John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT >> > University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing >> > systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of >> > typing for people who cannot use their limbs. >> > >> > "This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he >> > said. "Twenty-five words is really something." >> > >> > The software is free and can be downloaded at >> > www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be >> > controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed >> > by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including >> > those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye >> > tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the >> > steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34 >> > words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may >> > one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer >> > screens, Dr. MacKay said. >> > >> > For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and >> > his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane >> > Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so >> > that the software would be familiar with its style. Then >> > people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining >> > 10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like >> > "One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the >> > ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them >> > at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using >> > their gaze to create the text. The results were compared >> > with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen >> > keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation. >> > >> > The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by >> > EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the >> > company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher >> > with the gaze-tracking device. >> > >> > "Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people >> > may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen >> > and choose each letter." But he said he expected that >> > Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like >> > driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see >> > words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and >> > sentences." >> > >> > Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the >> > University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen >> > keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may >> > be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with >> > fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a >> > physical switch or pausing over a key," he said. >> > >> > But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full >> > range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also >> > had reservations about the display, which he thought might >> > tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives >> > which are constantly changing," he said. >> > >> > Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would >> > adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments >> > to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher >> > are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said. >> > "We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need >> > information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly >> > will be comfortable." >> > >> > Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use >> > Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly," >> > he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the >> > direction you want to go and then heading there at a >> > moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a >> > lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can >> > switch to a Ferrari." >> > >> > http://www.nytimes.co >> > /2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0 >> > >> > HOW TO ADVERTISE >> > --------------------------------- >> > For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters >> > or other creative advertising opportunities with The >> > New York Times on the Web, please contact >> > onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media >> > kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo >> > >> > For general information about NYTimes.com, write to >> > help@nytimes.com. >> > >> > Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company >> --------------442B3D65E48EF0AF0200D203 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ... and http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-9.html#2AQ

Geez, I am getting to be unfit for this job.

Henry
 

Henry K van Eyken wrote:

Not trying hard enough, apparently. Reference should be
http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-15.html#2L

:(

Henry K van Eyken wrote:

Gary.

You might like the little Dasher gif found at
http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-14.html#2L

We had been following this story for some time, see
http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-8.html#2AO

You'll find there also references to some other input systems

Henry
 

P.S. If I am tooting our own horn a little bit, it is because Fleabyte is trying very hard to create a connection between people and digital augmentation.

garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote:

This article from NYTimes.com
has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com.

Dasher--demonstrations and download.

garyrichmond@rcn.com

A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe

September 12, 2002
By ANNE EISENBERG
 
 

PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics
or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often
use their gaze instead.

Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys
pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the
direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer
equipped with an eye-tracking system.

Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists
at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this
laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by
eye.

Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's
Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said
that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at
successive areas on the screen when writing.

"Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said.
"That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher,
uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack
for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street,
driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what
often looks and feels like an onscreen game.

Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the
researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is
reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start,
Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on
the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run
down the column and locate the first desired letter, say
the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen
zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and
the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen.

Then the software predicts the most likely successor to
join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible
candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose
the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped
by the software, which poses likely options to complete
"hel" like "hello."

After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to
25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for
users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had
five times the error rate of Dasher users.

John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT
University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing
systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of
typing for people who cannot use their limbs.

"This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he
said. "Twenty-five words is really something."

The software is free and can be downloaded at
www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be
controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed
by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including
those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye
tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the
steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34
words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may
one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer
screens, Dr. MacKay said.

For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and
his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane
Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so
that the software would be familiar with its style. Then
people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining
10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like
"One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the
ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them
at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using
their gaze to create the text. The results were compared
with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen
keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation.

The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by
EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the
company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher
with the gaze-tracking device.

"Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people
may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen
and choose each letter." But he said he expected that
Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like
driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see
words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and
sentences."

Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the
University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen
keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may
be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with
fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a
physical switch or pausing over a key," he said.

But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full
range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also
had reservations about the display, which he thought might
tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives
which are constantly changing," he said.

Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would
adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments
to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher
are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said.
"We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need
information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly
will be comfortable."

Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use
Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly,"
he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the
direction you want to go and then heading there at a
moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a
lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can
switch to a Ferrari."

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0

HOW TO ADVERTISE
---------------------------------
For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters
or other creative advertising opportunities with The
New York Times on the Web, please contact
onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media
kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo

For general information about NYTimes.com, write to
help@nytimes.com.

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company

--------------442B3D65E48EF0AF0200D203-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 10:04:47 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9327B57011; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CB2CE57010 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 10:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-73.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.73] helo=rcn.com) by smtp02.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #6) id 17qd6f-0000UO-00; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:22:49 -0400 Message-ID: <3D84C1DE.90104@rcn.com> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 13:22:38 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe References: <20020915140857.832CDC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> <3D84AF4E.264E89F4@sympatico.ca> <3D84B099.81D91F58@sympatico.ca> <3D84B283.E0E6CB51@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thanks, Henry I'm new to unrev and fleabye, so forgive me if I post anything that's been discussed before I arrived. :-\ There are several other demonstrations and a download area at http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ which is the homepage of the site Jack posted http://sourceforge.net/projects/dasher/ Gary Henry K van Eyken wrote: > ... and http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-9.html#2AQ > > Geez, I am getting to be unfit for this job. > > Henry > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > >> Not trying hard enough, apparently. Reference should be >> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-15.html#2L >> >> :( >> >> Henry K van Eyken wrote: >> >>> Gary. >>> >>> You might like the little Dasher gif found at >>> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-14.html#2L >>> >>> We had been following this story for some time, see >>> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-8.html#2AO >>> >>> You'll find there also references to some other input systems >>> >>> Henry >>> >>> >>> P.S. If I am tooting our own horn a little bit, it is because >>> Fleabyte is trying very hard to create a connection between people >>> and digital augmentation. >>> >>> garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote: >>> >>>> This article from NYTimes.com >>>> has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. >>>> >>>> Dasher--demonstrations and download. >>>> >>>> garyrichmond@rcn.com >>>> >>>> A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe >>>> >>>> September 12, 2002 >>>> By ANNE EISENBERG >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics >>>> or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often >>>> use their gaze instead. >>>> >>>> Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys >>>> pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the >>>> direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer >>>> equipped with an eye-tracking system. >>>> >>>> Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists >>>> at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this >>>> laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by >>>> eye. >>>> >>>> Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's >>>> Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said >>>> that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at >>>> successive areas on the screen when writing. >>>> >>>> "Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said. >>>> "That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher, >>>> uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack >>>> for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street, >>>> driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what >>>> often looks and feels like an onscreen game. >>>> >>>> Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the >>>> researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is >>>> reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start, >>>> Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on >>>> the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run >>>> down the column and locate the first desired letter, say >>>> the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen >>>> zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and >>>> the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen. >>>> >>>> Then the software predicts the most likely successor to >>>> join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible >>>> candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose >>>> the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped >>>> by the software, which poses likely options to complete >>>> "hel" like "hello." >>>> >>>> After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to >>>> 25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for >>>> users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had >>>> five times the error rate of Dasher users. >>>> >>>> John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT >>>> University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing >>>> systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of >>>> typing for people who cannot use their limbs. >>>> >>>> "This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he >>>> said. "Twenty-five words is really something." >>>> >>>> The software is free and can be downloaded at >>>> www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be >>>> controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed >>>> by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including >>>> those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye >>>> tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the >>>> steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34 >>>> words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may >>>> one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer >>>> screens, Dr. MacKay said. >>>> >>>> For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and >>>> his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane >>>> Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so >>>> that the software would be familiar with its style. Then >>>> people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining >>>> 10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like >>>> "One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the >>>> ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them >>>> at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using >>>> their gaze to create the text. The results were compared >>>> with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen >>>> keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation. >>>> >>>> The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by >>>> EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the >>>> company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher >>>> with the gaze-tracking device. >>>> >>>> "Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people >>>> may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen >>>> and choose each letter." But he said he expected that >>>> Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like >>>> driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see >>>> words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and >>>> sentences." >>>> >>>> Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the >>>> University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen >>>> keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may >>>> be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with >>>> fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a >>>> physical switch or pausing over a key," he said. >>>> >>>> But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full >>>> range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also >>>> had reservations about the display, which he thought might >>>> tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives >>>> which are constantly changing," he said. >>>> >>>> Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would >>>> adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments >>>> to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher >>>> are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said. >>>> "We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need >>>> information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly >>>> will be comfortable." >>>> >>>> Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use >>>> Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly," >>>> he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the >>>> direction you want to go and then heading there at a >>>> moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a >>>> lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can >>>> switch to a Ferrari." >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> HOW TO ADVERTISE >>>> --------------------------------- >>>> For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters >>>> or other creative advertising opportunities with The >>>> New York Times on the Web, please contact >>>> onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media >>>> kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo >>>> >>>> For general information about NYTimes.com, write to >>>> help@nytimes.com. >>>> >>>> Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company >>>> From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 14:10:08 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4028D57012; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:10:08 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts12.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.56]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EE7B357011 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.155]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020915212807.PTLO4068.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:28:07 -0400 Message-ID: <3D84FA82.140EF2F6@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:24:18 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe References: <20020915140857.832CDC403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> <3D84AF4E.264E89F4@sympatico.ca> <3D84B099.81D91F58@sympatico.ca> <3D84B283.E0E6CB51@sympatico.ca> <3D84C1DE.90104@rcn.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------03087B3537BF807BC7AFCB36" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------03087B3537BF807BC7AFCB36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary. It is really very good of you to bring relevant stuff from the NYT to this forum. They are an excellent newspaper even though they may be four months behind Fleabyte ;-] But let there be praise where praise is due: they have fewer typos. Kidding aside, the articles by Lohr, for example, are sound, workmanlike stuff - some of it we can make use of, e.g. http://www.fleabyte.org/#fo-41 Henry Gary Richmond wrote: > Thanks, Henry > > I'm new to unrev and fleabye, so forgive me if I post anything that's > been discussed before I arrived. :-\ > > There are several other demonstrations and a download area at > http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/ > > which is the homepage of the site Jack posted > http://sourceforge.net/projects/dasher/ > > Gary > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > ... and http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-9.html#2AQ > > > > Geez, I am getting to be unfit for this job. > > > > Henry > > > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > > > >> Not trying hard enough, apparently. Reference should be > >> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-15.html#2L > >> > >> :( > >> > >> Henry K van Eyken wrote: > >> > >>> Gary. > >>> > >>> You might like the little Dasher gif found at > >>> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-14.html#2L > >>> > >>> We had been following this story for some time, see > >>> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-8.html#2AO > >>> > >>> You'll find there also references to some other input systems > >>> > >>> Henry > >>> > >>> > >>> P.S. If I am tooting our own horn a little bit, it is because > >>> Fleabyte is trying very hard to create a connection between people > >>> and digital augmentation. > >>> > >>> garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote: > >>> > >>>> This article from NYTimes.com > >>>> has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. > >>>> > >>>> Dasher--demonstrations and download. > >>>> > >>>> garyrichmond@rcn.com > >>>> > >>>> A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe > >>>> > >>>> September 12, 2002 > >>>> By ANNE EISENBERG > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics > >>>> or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often > >>>> use their gaze instead. > >>>> > >>>> Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys > >>>> pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the > >>>> direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer > >>>> equipped with an eye-tracking system. > >>>> > >>>> Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists > >>>> at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this > >>>> laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by > >>>> eye. > >>>> > >>>> Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's > >>>> Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said > >>>> that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at > >>>> successive areas on the screen when writing. > >>>> > >>>> "Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said. > >>>> "That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher, > >>>> uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack > >>>> for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street, > >>>> driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what > >>>> often looks and feels like an onscreen game. > >>>> > >>>> Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the > >>>> researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is > >>>> reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start, > >>>> Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on > >>>> the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run > >>>> down the column and locate the first desired letter, say > >>>> the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen > >>>> zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and > >>>> the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen. > >>>> > >>>> Then the software predicts the most likely successor to > >>>> join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible > >>>> candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose > >>>> the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped > >>>> by the software, which poses likely options to complete > >>>> "hel" like "hello." > >>>> > >>>> After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to > >>>> 25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for > >>>> users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had > >>>> five times the error rate of Dasher users. > >>>> > >>>> John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT > >>>> University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing > >>>> systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of > >>>> typing for people who cannot use their limbs. > >>>> > >>>> "This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he > >>>> said. "Twenty-five words is really something." > >>>> > >>>> The software is free and can be downloaded at > >>>> www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be > >>>> controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed > >>>> by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including > >>>> those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye > >>>> tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the > >>>> steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34 > >>>> words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may > >>>> one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer > >>>> screens, Dr. MacKay said. > >>>> > >>>> For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and > >>>> his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane > >>>> Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so > >>>> that the software would be familiar with its style. Then > >>>> people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining > >>>> 10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like > >>>> "One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the > >>>> ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them > >>>> at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using > >>>> their gaze to create the text. The results were compared > >>>> with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen > >>>> keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation. > >>>> > >>>> The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by > >>>> EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the > >>>> company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher > >>>> with the gaze-tracking device. > >>>> > >>>> "Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people > >>>> may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen > >>>> and choose each letter." But he said he expected that > >>>> Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like > >>>> driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see > >>>> words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and > >>>> sentences." > >>>> > >>>> Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the > >>>> University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen > >>>> keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may > >>>> be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with > >>>> fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a > >>>> physical switch or pausing over a key," he said. > >>>> > >>>> But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full > >>>> range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also > >>>> had reservations about the display, which he thought might > >>>> tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives > >>>> which are constantly changing," he said. > >>>> > >>>> Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would > >>>> adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments > >>>> to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher > >>>> are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said. > >>>> "We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need > >>>> information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly > >>>> will be comfortable." > >>>> > >>>> Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use > >>>> Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly," > >>>> he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the > >>>> direction you want to go and then heading there at a > >>>> moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a > >>>> lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can > >>>> switch to a Ferrari." > >>>> > >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> HOW TO ADVERTISE > >>>> --------------------------------- > >>>> For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters > >>>> or other creative advertising opportunities with The > >>>> New York Times on the Web, please contact > >>>> onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media > >>>> kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo > >>>> > >>>> For general information about NYTimes.com, write to > >>>> help@nytimes.com. > >>>> > >>>> Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company > >>>> --------------03087B3537BF807BC7AFCB36 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary. It is really very good of you to bring relevant stuff from the NYT to this forum. They are an excellent newspaper even though they may be four months behind Fleabyte ;-] But let there be praise where praise is due: they have fewer typos.

Kidding aside, the articles by Lohr, for example, are sound, workmanlike stuff - some of it we can make use of, e.g. http://www.fleabyte.org/#fo-41

Henry

Gary Richmond wrote:

Thanks, Henry

I'm new to unrev and fleabye, so forgive me if I post anything that's
been discussed before I arrived. :-\

There are several other demonstrations and a download area at
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/

which is the homepage of the site Jack posted
http://sourceforge.net/projects/dasher/

Gary

Henry K van Eyken wrote:

> ... and http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-9.html#2AQ
>
> Geez, I am getting to be unfit for this job.
>
> Henry
>
>
> Henry K van Eyken wrote:
>
>> Not trying hard enough, apparently. Reference should be
>> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-15.html#2L
>>
>> :(
>>
>> Henry K van Eyken wrote:
>>
>>> Gary.
>>>
>>> You might like the little Dasher gif found at
>>> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-14.html#2L
>>>
>>> We had been following this story for some time, see
>>> http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-8.html#2AO
>>>
>>> You'll find there also references to some other input systems
>>>
>>> Henry
>>>
>>>
>>> P.S. If I am tooting our own horn a little bit, it is because
>>> Fleabyte is trying very hard to create a connection between people
>>> and digital augmentation.
>>>
>>> garyrichmond@rcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> This article from NYTimes.com
>>>> has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com.
>>>>
>>>> Dasher--demonstrations and download.
>>>>
>>>> garyrichmond@rcn.com
>>>>
>>>> A Gaze That Dictates, With Intuitive Software as the Scribe
>>>>
>>>> September 12, 2002
>>>> By ANNE EISENBERG
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> PEOPLE who cannot use a keyboard or mouse - quadriplegics
>>>> or those with Lou Gehrig's disease, for instance - often
>>>> use their gaze instead.
>>>>
>>>> Typically they select characters to type by staring at keys
>>>> pictured on an onscreen keyboard; in many systems, the
>>>> direction of their gaze is then captured by a computer
>>>> equipped with an eye-tracking system.
>>>>
>>>> Now gamelike software developed by two British physicists
>>>> at the University of Cambridge promises to speed up this
>>>> laborious process, permitting rapid, accurate writing by
>>>> eye.
>>>>
>>>> Dr. David J. C. MacKay, a professor at the university's
>>>> Cavendish Laboratory and leader of the research team, said
>>>> that the new software relieves eyes of peering fixedly at
>>>> successive areas on the screen when writing.
>>>>
>>>> "Eyes did not evolve to push onscreen buttons," he said.
>>>> "That's exhausting." Instead, the software, called Dasher,
>>>> uses a different capability of the eye - its natural knack
>>>> for navigating, for instance, when walking down the street,
>>>> driving a car, or, in the case of Dasher, playing what
>>>> often looks and feels like an onscreen game.
>>>>
>>>> Although its purpose is serious, the software, which the
>>>> researchers described last month in the journal Nature, is
>>>> reminiscent of many enjoyable computer games. At the start,
>>>> Dasher displays the letters of the alphabet in a column on
>>>> the right side of a colorful screen. As the user's eyes run
>>>> down the column and locate the first desired letter, say
>>>> the "h" to begin "hello," the view on the computer screen
>>>> zooms in so that the area around the "h" grows larger and
>>>> the letter stands out, appearing to float on the screen.
>>>>
>>>> Then the software predicts the most likely successor to
>>>> join that "h," releasing "a, e, i, o, u" as possible
>>>> candidates for selection. People use their gaze to choose
>>>> the letters they want - or reject those they don't - helped
>>>> by the software, which poses likely options to complete
>>>> "hel" like "hello."
>>>>
>>>> After an hour's practice, Dasher users could write at up to
>>>> 25 words per minute, compared with 15 words per minute for
>>>> users of the onscreen keyboard. Onscreen keyboard users had
>>>> five times the error rate of Dasher users.
>>>>
>>>> John Paulin Hansen, an associate professor at the IT
>>>> University of Copenhagen who does research on eye-typing
>>>> systems, said that Dasher was a fast, intuitive way of
>>>> typing for people who cannot use their limbs.
>>>>
>>>> "This work is a breakthrough in terms of typing speed," he
>>>> said. "Twenty-five words is really something."
>>>>
>>>> The software is free and can be downloaded at
>>>> www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher. The program can be
>>>> controlled with an ordinary mouse; Dasher can be directed
>>>> by a variety of continuous pointing gestures, including
>>>> those made by a mouse or a gaze transduced by an eye
>>>> tracker. In an experiment in which a mouse was used as the
>>>> steering device, Dasher's capability was reported at 34
>>>> words per minute. Because of its versatility, Dasher may
>>>> one day prove useful for writing on miniature computer
>>>> screens, Dr. MacKay said.
>>>>
>>>> For the test that was reported in Nature, Dr. MacKay and
>>>> his collaborator, David J. Ward, used the text of Jane
>>>> Austen's "Emma," feeding Dasher 90 percent of the novel so
>>>> that the software would be familiar with its style. Then
>>>> people in the experiment took dictation from the remaining
>>>> 10 percent of the book. They listened to sentences like
>>>> "One thing only was wanting to make the prospect of the
>>>> ball completely satisfactory to Emma," and reproduced them
>>>> at their computer screens with hands-free writing, using
>>>> their gaze to create the text. The results were compared
>>>> with parallel sessions in which people used an onscreen
>>>> keyboard and eye tracker to take dictation.
>>>>
>>>> The eye tracker used in the experiment was manufactured by
>>>> EyeTech Digital Systems of Mesa, Ariz. The president of the
>>>> company, Robert Chappell, said he planned to bundle Dasher
>>>> with the gaze-tracking device.
>>>>
>>>> "Not everybody is going to switch," he said. "Some people
>>>> may prefer to look at a big rectangle on a computer screen
>>>> and choose each letter." But he said he expected that
>>>> Dasher would appeal to many of his customers. "It's like
>>>> driving a car - you steer after the letters and you see
>>>> words form, so you can navigate your way to phrases and
>>>> sentences."
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Fraser Shein, an engineering professor at the
>>>> University of Toronto who is a creator of an onscreen
>>>> keyboard, said that Dasher had potential. "His approach may
>>>> be more advantageous than pointing to a keyboard with
>>>> fixed-size keys that must be pushed usually by activating a
>>>> physical switch or pausing over a key," he said.
>>>>
>>>> But Dasher may not be appropriate for users who need a full
>>>> range of writing and editing functions, he said. He also
>>>> had reservations about the display, which he thought might
>>>> tax users. "It requires the eye to view many alternatives
>>>> which are constantly changing," he said.
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Hansen said he wondered how well the elderly would
>>>> adapt to Dasher and that he planned to devise experiments
>>>> to test that concern. "The floating characters in Dasher
>>>> are a new approach that you have to get used to," he said.
>>>> "We think it is a natural for youngsters, but we'll need
>>>> information to clarify the issue of whether the elderly
>>>> will be comfortable."
>>>>
>>>> Dr. MacKay has some advice for people learning to use
>>>> Dasher, regardless of their age. "Start by driving slowly,"
>>>> he said, that is, pointing your gaze or mouse in the
>>>> direction you want to go and then heading there at a
>>>> moderate pace. "Start as you would if you were driving a
>>>> lawn mower," he said. "After about 10 minutes, you can
>>>> switch to a Ferrari."
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0
>>>> <http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/12/technology/circuits/12NEXT.html?ex=1033098937&ei=1&en=984c8badb4d219c0>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> HOW TO ADVERTISE
>>>> ---------------------------------
>>>> For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters
>>>> or other creative advertising opportunities with The
>>>> New York Times on the Web, please contact
>>>> onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media
>>>> kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo
>>>>
>>>> For general information about NYTimes.com, write to
>>>> help@nytimes.com.
>>>>
>>>> Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company
>>>>

--------------03087B3537BF807BC7AFCB36-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 15:27:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 69FAA57012; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nccn6.nccn.net (nccn6.nccn.net [209.79.220.19]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ED13757011 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fungus (yrt.nccn.net [209.79.221.54]) by nccn6.nccn.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/*rGs* NO UCE! [V13]) with ESMTP id g8FMjvuR004885 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:45:58 -0700 Message-Id: <200209152245.g8FMjvuR004885@nccn6.nccn.net> From: "blincoln" To: "ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org" Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 15:48:00 -0700 X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.20.2634) For Windows 2000 (5.0.2195;2) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Doug Quotes Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I was writing an article recently about data management issues and was looking for some good Englebartian quotes and in a not-terribly-exhaustive search didn't find any good collection or start page. I used to know where (navigational memory only, not names of articles) on the old bootstrap site there were a couple, but does anyone have any suggestions for places to look or just any quotes from Doug about KM, ontologies, interfaces, augmentation, etc. they want to send to the list ? bcl From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 16:33:18 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C080E57013; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:33:17 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.187]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 22CD857011 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.177]) by tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020915235123.RCQL15836.tomts24-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:51:23 -0400 Message-ID: <3D851C14.7169D518@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:47:32 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Doug Quotes References: <200209152245.g8FMjvuR004885@nccn6.nccn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I do not off hand of any specific quotable phrases, but here is the Engelbart section of the new Bootsrrap site: http://www.bootstrap.org/engelbart/index.jsp and here of the old Bootstrap site: http://web.archive.org/web/20010607134625/www.bootstrap.org/chronicle/index.html (by way of the "Wayback Machine" (www.archive.org) Henry blincoln wrote: > I was writing an article recently about data management issues > and was looking for some good Englebartian quotes and in a > not-terribly-exhaustive search didn't find any good collection > or start page. > > I used to know where (navigational memory only, not names of > articles) on the old bootstrap site there were a couple, but does > anyone have any suggestions for places to look or just any > quotes from Doug about KM, ontologies, interfaces, augmentation, > etc. they want to send to the list ? > > bcl From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 16:36:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2F75657014; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts20.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.74]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 75B1857013 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 16:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.177]) by tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020915235415.LLOX378.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:54:15 -0400 Message-ID: <3D851CC2.7E628282@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:50:26 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Doug Quotes References: <200209152245.g8FMjvuR004885@nccn6.nccn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org And, of course, there is a lot of stuff in the Stanford Colloquium part: http://www.bootstrap.org/colloquium/transcripts.jsp Henry blincoln wrote: > I was writing an article recently about data management issues > and was looking for some good Englebartian quotes and in a > not-terribly-exhaustive search didn't find any good collection > or start page. > > I used to know where (navigational memory only, not names of > articles) on the old bootstrap site there were a couple, but does > anyone have any suggestions for places to look or just any > quotes from Doug about KM, ontologies, interfaces, augmentation, > etc. they want to send to the list ? > > bcl From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 15 18:19:27 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8410F57012; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:19:26 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D97057011 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jacklaptop ([12.234.214.35]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020916013729.WDLP26805.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@jacklaptop> for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:37:29 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020915183354.02231480@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 18:34:25 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: ICC and environmental war crimes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: "Jerome C. Glenn" > >You can get a free copy of the Millennium Project's study of environmental >war crimes and the International Criminal Council published by the Army >Environmental Policy Institute by sending an email to Robert Jarrett >. > >A Press Release about the report is available at: >http://www.acunu.org/millennium/press.html#ES-ICC > >----------------------------------------- >AC/UNU Millennium Project >4421 Garrison Street, NW >Washington, DC 20016 >tel/fax: (202) 686-5179 >http://millennium-project.org --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 16 00:22:19 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 229E556FF7; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from hall.mail.mindspring.net (hall.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.60]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A1A2E56FF5 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 00:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-vcaukeu.dsl.mindspring.com ([216.175.81.222] helo=D9KP0711) by hall.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17qqUW-0001cA-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 03:40:20 -0400 From: "Mei Lin Fung" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Doug Quotes Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 17:03:17 -0700 Organization: MLF Associates Inc. Message-ID: <001f01c25d14$75eeab60$2002a8c0@D9KP0711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200209152245.g8FMjvuR004885@nccn6.nccn.net> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Doug's 33 collected papers are listed and . available via link: http://www.bootstrap.org/engelbart/pubs.jsp There are a remaining 6 available in a bound collection, listed at the end of that list. More recent speeches by Doug during his April visit to Singapore can be found at: http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-11.html April 27, 2002 Improving our ability to improve: A call for investment in a new future Keynote address, World Library Summit, April 23 - 26, 2002, Singapore http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-10.html April 23 2002 Thoughts on Innovation Speech at a gala for recipients of Singapore's National Infocomm awards by Dr. Douglas C. Engelbart -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of blincoln Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2002 3:48 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Doug Quotes I was writing an article recently about data management issues and was looking for some good Englebartian quotes and in a not-terribly-exhaustive search didn't find any good collection or start page. I used to know where (navigational memory only, not names of articles) on the old bootstrap site there were a couple, but does anyone have any suggestions for places to look or just any quotes from Doug about KM, ontologies, interfaces, augmentation, etc. they want to send to the list ? bcl From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 16 06:25:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8322F56FF7; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (ms4.lga2.nytimes.com [64.15.247.148]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1626A56FF5 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:25:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from email4.lga2.nytimes.com (email4 [10.0.0.169]) by ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651775CEC6 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by email4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix, from userid 202) id 0F787C403; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:37:28 -0400 (EDT) From: garyrichmond@rcn.com To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: I.B.M. Agrees to Expand Its Use of the Linux Operating System Message-Id: <20020916133728.0F787C403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. I.B.M. Agrees to Expand Its Use of the Linux Operating System September 16, 2002 By BARNABY J. FEDER I.B.M. and the software company Red Hat plan to announce a multiyear alliance today to greatly expand the range of I.B.M. computers and software products that run on the Linux operating software distributed by Red Hat. I.B.M. and Red Hat, the leader among the start-ups trying to profit from packaging and supporting the free Linux operating system, also agreed to jointly sell their products and support services to big business customers deploying Linux systems. Financial details and the exact length of the three separate deals in the alliance package will not be disclosed. But the general terms outline a substantial, if not entirely unexpected, step forward in the Linux assault on the corporate market. Linux initially became popular among academic and government computer users anxious to avoid the cost of systems based on proprietary software from companies like Sun Microsystems and I.B.M. itself. Big businesses have taken note of the potential cost savings, but have been cautious about whether Linux measures up on other attributes that they consider important, including reliability, the ability to add capacity and compatibility with widely used business software. The new alliance does not supplant previous I.B.M. commitments to other Linux distributors or Red Hat's cooperative arrangements with I.B.M. rivals. But the closer and broader cooperation between the two companies should help validate Linux in the corporate world, where I.B.M. is the leading provider of both hardware and computer support services, according to Stacey Quandt, an analyst at Giga Information Group in Santa Clara, Calif. She predicted that the validation will help even Red Hat rivals like SuSE, which offers versions of Linux tailored to a number of I.B.M. computer models that Red Hat has ignored in the past. http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/16/technology/16LINU.html?ex=1033183447&ei=1&en=19124290e09b4f76 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 16 06:28:25 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E760657011; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:28:24 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (ms4.lga2.nytimes.com [64.15.247.148]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 98A1456FF7 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 06:28:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from email4.lga2.nytimes.com (email4 [10.0.0.169]) by ms4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED1985BE1E for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by email4.lga2.nytimes.com (Postfix, from userid 202) id A6DE0C403; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:39:56 -0400 (EDT) From: garyrichmond@rcn.com To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] NYTimes.com Article: A Battle Over Software Licensing Message-Id: <20020916133956.A6DE0C403@email4.lga2.nytimes.com> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 09:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by garyrichmond@rcn.com. A Battle Over Software Licensing September 16, 2002 By LAURIE J. FLYNN A proposed law intended to standardize software licensing from state to state has ignited a battle between its supporters - most notably, the business software industry - and the many forces who have joined to defeat it. Opposition has united a strange collection of bedfellows: librarians, information-technology managers and corporate chief information officers, insurance and aerospace executives, and consumer groups. The dispute involves a dense piece of legalese that has been scrutinized and debated for three years, although it was first proposed nearly a decade ago. Called the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act, the draft law aims to establish a single national framework for state laws governing the information economy - laws that vary widely around the nation. Just as other laws apply to consumer products like cars and groceries, the new law would help states address concerns like warranties and licenses for packaged software that are particular to information products. Three years ago, a conference of lawmakers from various states agreed to a version of the legislation, and started circulating it for adoption by individual states. So far, only two have passed it: Maryland and Virginia. Most of the nation's state attorneys general oppose the legislation, primarily because they see it as potentially overriding various state consumer protection laws already on the books. One of the proposed law's main effects would be to make binding contracts of the consumer licenses that come with shrink-wrapped software - despite the fact the buyer often cannot read the licensing agreement before buying and opening the package. According to one critic of the measure, Randy Roth, an information-technology buyers' consultant in Des Moines, the fight to defeat the new commercial code may very well be the first time consumers and the insurance industry have been on the same side of a major legislative issue. This week, a group opposing the proposed law, Americans for Fair Electronic Commerce Transaction, will hold its annual planning meeting in Washington, with the goal of girding the organization for the critical year ahead. The group will try to devise a strategy to prevent the uniform computer transactions act, which is known by the acronym Ucita, from gaining ground beyond the two states that have already adopted it. The opponents argue that Ucita is too overreaching and unclear and gives software companies an unfair advantage over consumers, while giving consumers little recourse if they buy bad software. The opposition group "has always believed that Ucita is too broad, too complex and has too many problems, and that it should be scrapped and rewritten," said Carol Ashworth, who holds the title of "Ucita grass-roots coordinator" for the American Library Association. The opponents contend that the software industry had far too much influence in the writing the legislation. "It's like having the American Medical Association write the laws governing malpractice," said Edward Foster, a columnist for the computer trade magazine InfoWorld, who has been active in the fight against the proposal for the past eight years. Insurers are opposing the legislation because they say it would make their heavily regulated businesses too vulnerable to the software companies. Under the proposed law, critics contend that software companies could disable a customer's software for perceived violations to the licensing agreement, or suspected piracy - essentially bringing business to a halt. "For us, there's more at stake because this industry is so dependent on computer software," said John Lobert, senior vice president for state government affairs for the Alliance of American Insurers, an industry trade group. "Anything that impacts how software is licensed affects the insurance industry." The original version of the proposed code went so far as to let software companies electronically disable a program that was being used in violation of its license agreement. While that proviso was eliminated by recent amendments, critics like Mr. Lobert say so many loopholes remain in the statute that the amendments are almost meaningless. Work on the proposal began in the early 1990's, after lawyers from the National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws determined that existing product codes would not comfortably apply to software licensing. Not until 1999, after countless hours of debate and testimony, did the conference pass the information transaction act and send it to the states. Since then, the statute has been embroiled in debate. In perhaps the biggest blow to the proposal, the American Bar Association, after studying the act, declined to endorse it and instead issued a long list of recommended amendments. In July, the commission of legislators made 38 amendments based on those recommendations, but opponents dismissed the revisions as inadequate. •  To press their case, the pro-Ucita forces now intend to lobby states to enact the legislation. Mary Jo Dively, who was a consultant to the original drafters of the proposal and who is now vice president and chief counsel at Carnegie Mellon University, says that many of Ucita's opponents may not be accustomed to doing business within the framework of the commercial code, and that the changes the opposition group has suggested are unrealistic. "The group would like to change Ucita to be vastly different from any commercial law in effect today," she said, "and it would have no chance of passing." Accusations that the software industry unduly influenced the writing of the law, or that the law is biased in its favor, are unfounded, Ms. Dively said. "I don't think any one entity had more input than any other," she said. "What it does do over existing law is make it worse for the licensor." Ucita's backers also point out that in Maryland and Virginia the same arguments that opposition group has put forth were debated at length and rejected. But Mr. Roth, one of the legislation's critics, argues that when Maryland and Virginia passed the law, the states were hoping to ride the tech boom of the late 1990's by making their states more attractive to software and Internet companies. In the meantime, opponents are preparing to do battle in the upcoming legislative session. In their view, the stakes are high. "If Ucita passes in the states," said David McMahon, a consumer affairs lawyer in Charleston, Va., and the consumer representative on the board of the opposition group, "anybody buying new computer software will have less protection than when a consumer buys a cheap used car." http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/16/technology/16NECO.html?ex=1033183596&ei=1&en=caa3b79af92c7b61 HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help@nytimes.com. Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 16 17:28:37 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7CE2457011; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A29A756FF7 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:28:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10565 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:46:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8H0kdi16635 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D867BAC.AF12845C@sun.com> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:47:40 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor References: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mighty post. Thanks. I began reading with a predisposition to accept his thesis. In particular, I find his condemnation of market economies as causing environmental degradation and loss of quality of life (in some respects, at least) rather apt. However, when he argues that most of the goods go the rich and _as a result_ people in poor countries are starving, I think he may be confusomg correlation with causation. There is definitely a correlation. I'm not sure about the causation, but I remain open to demonstration -- which he seems to point to when he talks about use of 3rd world lands -- but whether they are better off with a market for goods, or worse off because of it, I'm not yet totally convinced. (That is the only small issue in an otherwise fine post, though. Of course, I eagerly anticipated some concrete alternative, which I failed to find. But his analysis and his allusion to information sources gives me hope...) As for banks and businesses sweeping away all obstacles, he is dead on correct. The new keiretsu are, in effect, nation states that are making geopgraphical boundaries obsolete. But is this a good thing? In the 60's, I was sure that it was. At that time, I saw *nationalism* as the fundamental enemy to human welfare. Religious fantacism is a terrible thing, to be sure, but it is only when it is combined with nationalism and governmental power that it becomes demonizing. I saw then, and still see now, that "nationalism" is the most likely cause of war and catastrophe". Global corporations, because they cross boundaries, serve as an effective antidote to war. But is the cure worse than the disease? That is an open question. Having seen for myself the misery that corporations are capable of inflicting in the name of profit -- unless and until restrained by an act of government, I am certainly not enthralled with government by corporate entities. All of which brings me back to the separation of business and state which is such a fundamental necessity. But it is perhaps interesting that if it is business which makes war obsolete, it may well be business which provides the motivation for the U.N. to turn into something useful. Of course, that will take 50 years or so, but the end result may well be a global magna carta that takes power out of the hands of the wealthy aristocracy, and returns it to the people once and for all. His point about market and its destructive effect on community is equally well taken. Here, I resport to equilibrium theory as the "right" way to think about the social contract. In fact, it was with just this idea in mind that I eagerly read this message. Again, he is dead on when it comes to the commitment to growth, which eats up resources -- not to mention that deading effect on people who are financially enslaved to corporations, for lack of any means of subsistence without them. (For this, I see 3-D farming as a possible remedy.) Pollution, too, is a major concern. Granted, it is fueled by a market economy. And like rats who overrun a ship, we may well eat find ourselves with no usable environmental resources of any kind. Hey! He references "a substantial and growing literature on the basic form a sustainable society must take", and "small market gardens (located) throughout cities". Now he's talking my language! (Everytime I see a bare lot, I think about how a great forest farm could be growing there.) And this, I love: "we could easily organise a much higher quality of life at a much more relaxed pace than most of us have now, with no reduction in the availability of modern medical or other important technologies..." It sounds like quite a few people are thinking in the right directions. Now if we can only get some concrete proposals and take steps to get there... When I get the exercise equipment company off the ground, I expect to have the wherewithal to focus on 3-D farming, music instruction, and community building. In fact, it was during my last start-up attempt that I reflected how beneficial it would have been to have no rent to pay, and few groceries to buy. At the moment, though, I'm as trapped as anyone else. If only I didn't have so many interests! (There was a great line on one of the Law & Order shows last night -- "You're an intelligent person and you have a lot of interests -- that you spend a lot of money on -- so you don't have any.") Perfect description. But one thing the great philosopher Vin Diesel said at the Agora (aka Leno's place) was "invest in your dreams". And *that* appears to be the antidote to overspending. (Actually, he said "invest in yourself". But I've followed that advice for years. Unfortunately, it lets you pamper yourself to death, indulging any interest that comes along -- but "invest in your dreams" implies a focus on a goal, so that all expenditures dovetail to help you get where you want to go, and be who you want to be.) :_) Jack Park wrote: > > >From: Thommandel@aol.com > ><< Relayed by Doug Everingham from an attachment to a message > >From: "Alan Kerns" > >To: [Economic Reform Australia list] > >Subject: Re: [ERANet] Ockham's Razor - Uncertainty and Demonising - Eva Cox > >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 4:12 AM > >---------- > > >From Eva Cox's radio program > >Ockham's Razor -- transcript at > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s658492.htm > > or listening > >to it (in RealAudio format) from > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/audio/ockham_25082002_2856.ram > > [15 > >minutes] > > > > > >Ockham's Razor - 16/02/1997 > > > >Let's Scrap The Economy > > > >Summary: > > > >Ted Trainer explains why the most important item on our agenda should be > >almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory it's based > >on. > > > >Transcript: > > > >Robyn Williams: The economy is on everybody's mind, as usual, sometimes to > >the exclusion of most other affairs. So you'll be diverted, perhaps, to > >learn that the title of this week's Ockham's Razor talk is "Let's Scrap the > >Economy." No prisoners taken today. > > > >Well Dr Ted Trainer lectures in Social Work at the University of New South > >Wales, and here's his case for abolition. > > > >Ted Trainer: I want to explain why the most important item on our agenda > >should be almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory > >it's based on. > > > >Firstly, this economy is obviously not solving our problems. In the last > >four decades, real income per person in rich countries like Australia has > >more or less trebled. Even in the recessed 1980s, Australia's GDP increased > >by one-third in real terms. Now one would have thought that such large > >increases would have enabled us to totally eliminate problems, such as debt, > >insufficient casualty wards and especially poverty. But in fact it's > >difficult to nominate one social or economic problem that's not become much > >more serious. Unemployment, inequality and poverty increased, and we now > >have perhaps 40,000 homeless people in Australia. In the 1980s Australia's > >rural debt and our foreign debt both multiplied by about ten. In addition, > >just about all indices of social breakdown and the experienced quality of > >life deteriorated. > > > >It's not just that a system with that record is not likely to suddenly start > >providing well for all. This economy causes the problems now literally > >threatening the destruction of our ecosystems and our social cohesion in > >coming decades. > > > >Consider firstly the market system. Markets do some things well and there > >might be an important role for them in a satisfactory economy. But at > >present, market forces are given far too much power to determine production, > >distribution and development. It's no exaggeration to say that most of the > >human misery and environmental damage in the world is directly due to the > >operation of market forces. > > > >Access to the world's resources is grossly unjust. One fifth of the world's > >people are taking and using up about 80% of all the resources produced and > >two to three billion people are seriously deprived. While we squander > >resources on affluent consumer lifestyles, between one and two billion > >people have insufficient food and unsafe drinking water. As a result, more > >than 30,000 people die every day. > > > >The main reason for this extreme deprivation and injustice is that the > >global economy is a market system, and in a market most of the available > >resources go to those who can pay most for them. That's why Australia has an > >average energy consumption that is 18 times the average for the poorest half > >of the world's people. And it's why more than 500-million tonnes of grain - > >about one-third of the world's total production - is fed to animals in rich > >countries every year to produce meat, while millions in the Third World are > >hungry. > > > >Even more important, is the fact that market forces draw Third World > >productive capacity into producing things to export to rich countries, when > >anyone can see that those resources should be used by Third World people to > >produce for themselves the basic goods they need. The most disturbing > >example of this is the vast area of the best Third World land growing crops > >to export to our supermarkets. > > > >Hence, we see the essential characteristic of conventional growth and > >trickle-down development. That is, the fact that it results in development > >which is almost entirely inappropriate to the needs of most Third World > >people. When what's developed is determined by market forces, by what will > >be most profitable to those with money to invest and money to buy products, > >then the inevitable result will be development of the wrong > >things; development mostly of what will benefit the rich. In the last decade > >we have entered an era in which these impoverishing effects of the market > >will rapidly accelerate, because we're now seeing the "globalisation" of the > >world economy. Since the 1970s it has become > >increasingly difficult for corporations and banks to find enough profitable > >investment outlets. Now they're solving this problem by a huge effort to > >sweep away all the tariffs and protection and arrangements which previously > >enabled large numbers of people and regions to produce and sell things. The > >freedom of trade has been made into the supreme sacred value and anything > >which restricts the access of the big corporations and banks to resources > >and markets is being eliminated. > > > >Why are the economic and political leaders of all countries eagerly going > >along with this push for globalisation and absolute freedom of trade, fully > >opening their societies to the predations of the transnational corporations > >and banks? The answer is, because they have studied conventional economics > >and the only way they know to try to solve their problems is to "get the > >economy going", to crank up more production and consumption, and of course > >the best way to get more business turnover happening is to give the > >corporations even more freedom to buy and sell. The sane alternative is > >never considered: that is, to make sure that Australia's abundant land, > >labour and capital is fully applied to producing what we need for a very > >satisfactory and secure existence, sharing the work, letting in only those > >foreign corporations that will produce what we want, trading only a little, > >to earn the export income needed to import only those things we can't > >produce easily. > > > >The second major criticism of our economy concerns the destructive relation > >between the market and society. A number of economic historians, such as > >Polanyi, have pointed out that the more the economy prospers, the more that > >desirable social bonds and cohesion are undermined. > > > >A society is made up of many intangible social bonds, ties, commitments and > >relations - for example, bonds of familiarity, friendship, trust, > >obligation, morality and tradition. These social values are contradicted by > >the values and attitudes that the market requires. In a market situation > >your attention is focused on maximising your individual gain and guarding > >against exploitation. The market situation does not encourage you to think > >about what is good for the other person or for society. The more we turn to > >market relations, the less emphasis we're putting on relations that build > >social concern and cohesion. As Polanyi and others have explained, in all > >pre-capitalist societies, markets and the maximisation of individual income > >were either of trivial significance or did not exist at all. Social factors, > >such as moral codes, religion and tradition were the important criteria > >determining production, distribution and development. > > > >This clash between the economy and society becomes obvious when we ask what > >would happen if we allowed production and distribution within a family to be > >determined by what would maximise sales or cash income. If Mum started > >making the toast and then selling it to the highest bidder, the economic > >efficiency of the domestic scene would be greatly improved, but the kids > >wouldn't get much toast because Dad can bid much more than they can. In no > >time, the desirable social relations which ensure that Grandpa can have some > >toast, even though he is economically useless, would be replaced by > >calculations about individual cash advantage. In other words, merely > >economic calculations of individual advantage would drive out the social > >relations and concerns whereby in a good society we do many things because > >they are right, or nice, or just, without regard to whether or not they're > >profitable or economically efficient. Hence we can understand why Polanyi > >emphasised that the self-interest which market relations are about will > >literally destroy society and its ecosystems if they're not kept under close > >control. > > > >I come now to the most serious of all the faults built into this economy. > >This is simply the mindless commitment to growth in a world of limited > >resources. You cannot go on and on forever increasing output on a planet > >with limited energy, mineral, biological and environmental resources. But > >conventional economists on the Left and the Right refuse to think about > >this. > > > >It's recently been estimated that each person in Sydney requires 4.5 > >hectares of productive land. If all the world's people were to live as > >people in Sydney do, we would need three times all the productive land on > >the planet and for the expected world population of 11-billion by about > >2070, we'd need six times that area. Clearly it's impossible for all to live > >as we do. > > > >The greenhouse problem provides another powerful argument. The > >Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has said that we must cut global > >carbon emissions by 60% to 80%. If we cut it by 60% and share the remaining > >energy among the 11-billion people expected after 2060, each of us would > >have to get by on only one-eighteenth of the energy we now average in > >Australia. Most people have no idea that we must face up to such huge > >reductions in consumption if we are to solve the big problems. > > > >But we have an economy which cannot tolerate any reduction in the volume of > >production or sales. In fact unless output grows at more than 3% per annum, > >there are serious problems, especially of unemployment. It is obviously not > >an economy that could enable us to just produce sufficient to provide us all > >with good lifestyles, or a stable minimum amount of resource use and work. > > > >If you examine potentially recoverable resource estimates for minerals and > >fuels, you will find that if all people were to live as we in rich countries > >do, then most resources would be totally exhausted in something like four > >decades. These have been some of the lines of argument which I think show > >that there is no possibility of all people rising to anything like the > >living standards people in Australia take for granted today. > > > >During the 1980s Australia had about 3.2% per annum growth, but this was far > >from sufficient because all our problems became more serious. Let's assume > >4% would be sufficient for a healthy economy, and let's assume we keep that > >up to 2060, and that by then all the world's people will have risen to the > >living standards we would then have. Do you realise that world economic > >output would then be 220 times what it is today? Even if the world as a > >whole were only to average 3% growth from here on, then by 2060 total world > >output would be eight times what it is now. I have just explained that there > >are convincing reasons for concluding that the present amount of world > >output is totally unsustainable, let alone any multiple of it. > > > >There is now a substantial and growing literature on the basic form a > >sustainable society must take, given the limits to growth analysis of our > >situation. An almost completely new economy must be eventually developed, a > >Third Way, quite different from the capitalist and the big-state socialist > >ways. It must be made up of many small scale, highly self-sufficient local > >economies, involving much simpler and less affluent lifestyles than we have > >now, and much more co-operative arrangements. There could be a role for > >market forces and free enterprise in the form of mostly small businesses, > >but these would have to be under strict social control. Above all, it would > >have to be a zero growth or steady state economy, in which we can just > >produce enough for a high quality of life for all without constantly > >increasing production or consumption. > > > >Among the ideas being discussed and implemented are locating small market > >gardens throughout cities, planting our suburbs with edible landscapes that > >will provide free food and materials, decentralising much production to > >small local firms, many of which might operate in craft ways, having our own > >town and suburban banks with elected boards ensuring that our savings can be > >invested in enriching our own suburbs, moving much economic activity out of > >the cash sector and into the realm of gifts, surplus swapping and > >contributions to working bees, having suburban market days and running many > >things via local voluntary committees.0 > > > >I have no doubt we could easily organise a much higher quality of life at a > >much more relaxed pace than most of us have now, with no reduction in the > >availability of modern medical or other important technologies, if most > >people saw the desirability of restructuring towns and neighbourhoods along > >the lines now being pioneered by the global Ecovillage and Permaculture > >movements. > > > >It is astounding that although the limits to growth argument has been around > >for about 25 years, there is almost no public discussion of it in Australia > >today. The historian Toynbee analysed the rise and fall of civilisations in > >terms of their capacity to respond to challenge. What can we say about our > >prospects when we show almost no ability to even recognise that an economy > >committed to affluence and growth is totally incompatible with ecological or > >social sustainability. > > > >Robyn Williams: Ted Trainer lectures in the Department of Social Work at the > >University of New South Wales. If you'd like to read more about the details > >of a sustainable society according to him, you can get hold of his two > >recent books: one is "The Conserver Society" published by Zed Books; and the > >other is Towards a Sustainable Economy, by Envirobooks. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 16 17:35:14 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5D0AD57012; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB5CB57011 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07483 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8H0rIi17750 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:53:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D867D3A.55ED8F5F@sun.com> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:54:18 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor References: <002d01c25c3c$7863e140$f5f5193e@vaio> <4.2.0.58.20020914171033.00af03f0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thanks for posting that, Jack. Every message on this list is archived. One day, we'd love for it to be a database of ideas and references that can be accessed. In the meantime, all possible avenues that promise solutions to the "pressing problems that confront mankind" deserve to be investigated. However, as Jeff Conklin so adroitly describes in his paper on IBIS, the way to engage the cerebellum (and disengage emotional reactions) is to focus on the _issues_. The issue may be good, bad, or whatever. The person *never* is. Hold that thought, and even negative opinions on the issue can be expressed in a way that does not constitute an attack on the person expressing a contrary opinion. To lose that perspective, is to invite an "unreined tongue", capable of harming anyone -- its owner, most of all. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 16 17:36:39 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D438657013; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:36:38 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 48C6357012 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:36:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07874 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8H0shi18008 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D867D8F.2FA1D083@sun.com> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:55:43 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > > We're not going to agree on this. Too many diverse opinions, too many > political agendas. I could probably sit down with any one of you and have a > fine meal, but the amount of bickering here is just kinda funny. Which just > might be the unrev point... > Actually, it points up the need for IBIS-style tools, so that issues can be the focus of the conversation, instead of personalities -- especially when some are inclined to polarize the discourse. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 16 18:12:09 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 65F6157011; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D8CF356FF7 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacbell.net ([12.233.136.46]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020917013017.CAKX16829.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@pacbell.net> for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 01:30:17 +0000 Message-ID: <3D8685B5.4050702@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:30:29 -0700 From: Gerald Pierce User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> <3D867BAC.AF12845C@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric, I just have to chime in here. If you are pampering yourself spending your money on a lot of "things" there is a good chance that you don't really know who you are! You speak like you DO know. So tell me. With regard to all the "if only's, that is a really tough fight. I think that a more powerful approach would be to offer "charming deceptions" that would provide forces and tools to assist people in waking up. As people become more aware of their real relationship to the planet their market demands will shift to products that do not shoot holes in the other end of the lifeboat. In many ways, big business doesn't really care whether you buy good stuff or bad stuff. They will make and sell you what you ask for. The bad news, of course, is while working on world problems behind the scenes at this level is powerful and effective, there is very little recognition or credit to be had and it takes an exceptional person/organization to hang in there. I think that there is a major opportunity for religious organization to transform themselves by taking on this challenge. This will give them something to do besides bicker about who is right and work out why the infidels/heathens need to be killed. Any clergy, monks, priests, etc out there who are reading this - I will thank you, Mother Earth will thank you and (I won't claim to speak for the un-namable namer but I feel to the depths of my genetic code) HE/SHE/WE/IT will look favorably on such an enterprise. Ger Q. E. D. Services Eric Armstrong wrote: > Mighty post. Thanks. > > I began reading with a predisposition to accept his thesis. > In particular, I find his condemnation of market economies > as causing environmental degradation and loss of quality of > life (in some respects, at least) rather apt. > > However, when he argues that most of the goods go the rich > and _as a result_ people in poor countries are starving, I > think he may be confusomg correlation with causation. There is > definitely a correlation. I'm not sure about the causation, > but I remain open to demonstration -- which he seems to > point to when he talks about use of 3rd world lands -- but > whether they are better off with a market for goods, or worse > off because of it, I'm not yet totally convinced. > > (That is the only small issue in an otherwise fine post, though. > Of course, I eagerly anticipated some concrete alternative, > which I failed to find. But his analysis and his allusion to > information sources gives me hope...) > > As for banks and businesses sweeping away all obstacles, he is > dead on correct. The new keiretsu are, in effect, nation states > that are making geopgraphical boundaries obsolete. But is this > a good thing? > > In the 60's, I was sure that it was. At that time, I saw > *nationalism* as the fundamental enemy to human welfare. > Religious fantacism is a terrible thing, to be sure, but it > is only when it is combined with nationalism and governmental > power that it becomes demonizing. I saw then, and still see > now, that "nationalism" is the most likely cause of war and > catastrophe". > > Global corporations, because they cross boundaries, serve as > an effective antidote to war. But is the cure worse than the > disease? That is an open question. Having seen for myself the > misery that corporations are capable of inflicting in the name > of profit -- unless and until restrained by an act of government, > I am certainly not enthralled with government by corporate > entities. > > All of which brings me back to the separation of business and > state which is such a fundamental necessity. But it is perhaps > interesting that if it is business which makes war obsolete, it > may well be business which provides the motivation for the U.N. > to turn into something useful. Of course, that will take 50 > years or so, but the end result may well be a global magna carta > that takes power out of the hands of the wealthy aristocracy, > and returns it to the people once and for all. > > His point about market and its destructive effect on community > is equally well taken. Here, I resport to equilibrium theory as > the "right" way to think about the social contract. In fact, it > was with just this idea in mind that I eagerly read this message. > > Again, he is dead on when it comes to the commitment to growth, > which eats up resources -- not to mention that deading effect on > people who are financially enslaved to corporations, for lack of > any means of subsistence without them. (For this, I see 3-D > farming as a possible remedy.) > > Pollution, too, is a major concern. Granted, it is fueled by a > market economy. And like rats who overrun a ship, we may well > eat find ourselves with no usable environmental resources of any > kind. > > Hey! He references "a substantial and growing literature on the > basic form a sustainable society must take", and "small market > gardens (located) throughout cities". Now he's talking my > language! (Everytime I see a bare lot, I think about how a > great forest farm could be growing there.) > > And this, I love: "we could easily organise a much higher > quality of life at a much more relaxed pace than most of us have > now, with no reduction in the availability of modern medical or > other important technologies..." > > It sounds like quite a few people are thinking in the right > directions. Now if we can only get some concrete proposals and > take steps to get there... > > When I get the exercise equipment company off the ground, I > expect to have the wherewithal to focus on 3-D farming, music > instruction, and community building. In fact, it was during my > last start-up attempt that I reflected how beneficial it would > have been to have no rent to pay, and few groceries to buy. At > the moment, though, I'm as trapped as anyone else. > > If only I didn't have so many interests! (There was a great line > on one of the Law & Order shows last night -- "You're an > intelligent person and you have a lot of interests -- that you > spend a lot of money on -- so you don't have any.") > > Perfect description. But one thing the great philosopher Vin > Diesel said at the Agora (aka Leno's place) was "invest in your > dreams". And *that* appears to be the antidote to overspending. > > (Actually, he said "invest in yourself". But I've followed that > advice for years. Unfortunately, it lets you pamper yourself to > death, indulging any interest that comes along -- but "invest in > your dreams" implies a focus on a goal, so that all expenditures > dovetail to help you get where you want to go, and be who you want > to be.) > :_) > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 16 18:13:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 23BEB57012; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7C38657011 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-119a903.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.36.3] helo=gmob) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17r7Da-0003HZ-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:31:58 -0400 From: "Graham Stalker-Wilde" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:31:51 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-to: <3D867D8F.2FA1D083@sun.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I actually rather like personalities. Some of my best friends have one, and I'm not keen to abstract them away for the sake of a quiet life. My point was less about focusing on issues over personalities than about choosing which issues to focus on here. There are plenty of places to argue about unilateralism/imperialism/energy/the UN/GM food/Enron/how to get pizza grease out of a new t-shirt/West Bank Settlements/the Filioque/etc. Over a good meal I'd like to hear what you all think about these, but there are rather few places to discuss bootstrapping. Personally I'd prefer people brought all their foibles and idiosyncrasies to this discussion, realizing that we are *not* about to bring world peace but that we might get somewhere on augmentation. If we figure out a little bit more about how to talk we'll have done plenty. -g -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 8:56 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > > We're not going to agree on this. Too many diverse opinions, too many > political agendas. I could probably sit down with any one of you and have a > fine meal, but the amount of bickering here is just kinda funny. Which just > might be the unrev point... > Actually, it points up the need for IBIS-style tools, so that issues can be the focus of the conversation, instead of personalities -- especially when some are inclined to polarize the discourse. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 17 03:26:31 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 288AC56FF7; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 03:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts22.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.184]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6AB4656FF4 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 03:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.178]) by tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020917104437.QXWE20904.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:44:37 -0400 Message-ID: <3D8706AB.9BB3886F@sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 06:40:44 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor References: <002d01c25c3c$7863e140$f5f5193e@vaio> <4.2.0.58.20020914171033.00af03f0@thinkalong.com> <3D867D3A.55ED8F5F@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Quoting from Eric's quoting of Conklin, "the way to engage the cerebellum (and disengage emotional reactions) is to focus on the _issues_." Which corresponds exactly to what Judge Bork tells us in his book, "Coercing virtue," which I recently reviewed for Fleabyte. The lessen we draw from it is that when it comes to bring about change iin society, the route has to be by enticing the electorate and those who stand for elections to become more competent in their roles (ref. conclusion of review: http://www.fleabyte.org/eic-17.html#2A19 and 2A20 Those, to my mind, are key paragraphs for guiding our conduct, in media, in education, in digital technology. Henry Eric Armstrong wrote: > Thanks for posting that, Jack. > > Every message on this list is archived. One day, we'd > love for it to be a database of ideas and references > that can be accessed. In the meantime, all possible > avenues that promise solutions to the "pressing problems > that confront mankind" deserve to be investigated. > > However, as Jeff Conklin so adroitly describes in his > paper on IBIS, the way to engage the cerebellum (and > disengage emotional reactions) is to focus on the > _issues_. > > The issue may be good, bad, or whatever. The person > *never* is. Hold that thought, and even negative > opinions on the issue can be expressed in a way that > does not constitute an attack on the person expressing > a contrary opinion. > > To lose that perspective, is to invite an "unreined tongue", > capable of harming anyone -- its owner, most of all. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 17 04:04:16 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 161B156FF7; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:04:15 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2998056FF4 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 04:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-46.oxygen.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.7.46] helo=vaio) by cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17rGQs-0003tA-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:22:19 +0100 Message-ID: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 12:19:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Seconded. With respect, I think it is no longer possible to divorce discussion of augmentation from discussion of the social relations into which it is bound. The biggest complex, urgent problem on offer is to work out how to take our collective foot off the accelerator pedal of obsession with capital accumulation. To recognise that is to see that every piece of augmentation developed has an economic and socio-political impact. Even GPL'ed (and similarly licensed) software doesn't escape that situation - i.e. it's dubious as to whether GPLing software slows the train at all, rather than giving businesses extra profit without having to pay properly for the labour. I believe Messrs. Stallman and co. meant well, but the ubiquity of the existing social relations does appear to undermine the laudable intent. I believe it is therefore imperative to ask at every turn how a piece of (purportedly) augmenting technology contributes to the social framework. It is true that we can't really predict the future with enormous precision, but then it is possible to treat a generalisation like the existing social frameworks at that broad abstract level and to make a reasonable estimate of the optimum outcome. And that has got to be better than blundering forth in ignorance. Regards, -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Stalker-Wilde" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 2:31 AM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor > I actually rather like personalities. Some of my best friends have one, and > I'm not keen to abstract them away for the sake of a quiet life. My point > was less about focusing on issues over personalities than about choosing > which issues to focus on here. > > There are plenty of places to argue about > unilateralism/imperialism/energy/the UN/GM food/Enron/how to get pizza > grease out of a new t-shirt/West Bank Settlements/the Filioque/etc. Over a > good meal I'd like to hear what you all think about these, but there are > rather few places to discuss bootstrapping. Personally I'd prefer people > brought all their foibles and idiosyncrasies to this discussion, realizing > that we are *not* about to bring world peace but that we might get somewhere > on augmentation. > > If we figure out a little bit more about how to talk we'll have done plenty. > > -g > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong > Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 8:56 PM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor > > > Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > > > > We're not going to agree on this. Too many diverse opinions, too many > > political agendas. I could probably sit down with any one of you and have > a > > fine meal, but the amount of bickering here is just kinda funny. Which > just > > might be the unrev point... > > > Actually, it points up the need for IBIS-style tools, so that issues > can be the focus of the conversation, instead of personalities -- > especially when some are inclined to polarize the discourse. > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 17 13:04:58 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id CE4B856FF7; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 309A456FF4 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05482; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:22:53 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8HKMri24494; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 13:23:55 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org, hm Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Peter Jones wrote: > > With respect, I think it is no longer possible to divorce discussion of > augmentation from discussion of the social relations into which it is bound. The > biggest complex, urgent problem on offer is to work out how to take our > collective foot off the accelerator pedal of obsession with capital > accumulation. > I'm inclined to agree completely, on this point. Doing so would create an immediate reduction in stress -- both on individuals and the environment. Interestingly, this morning I was reading a small article in NewsWeek from a few weeks ago, talking about people who quite fast-paced jobs for "summer jobs". The fellow it was about had left a career and ulcers behind to work mornings making salads. He'd make about $75, and spend the afternoon at the beach. Got to wear a coyboy hat to work, and a grin on his face as big as all outdoors. So there is movement in that direction. The time is right. So: Without calling you lame-brained, pea-headed, son of a skunk with no more sense than god gave a hammer, how can we begin to make that shift happen. Personally, I find the 3-D farming on the west coast of India to be something of an inspiration. They grow most of their food in the trees, bushes, shrubs, climbing vines, ground crops, and root crops. (Hence "3-D". Note the 7 different levels. They actually have 9, since they have coconut trees towering over everything.) Small cottage industries provide the little extra they need, so other than an hour or two a day, they are entirely self-sufficient. All in all, it sounds like a pretty good balance. The really nice thing about 3-D farming is that you're surrounded by trees, and there is no planting or tilling to be done. Harvesting, too, is matter of doing a little every day (to eat), so it's a pretty low-maintenance endeavor. Now then. MY idea is create a foundation which accepts gifts of land. It then "rents" that land in perpetuity to folks who will do 3-D farming on it, so long as they pay the taxes, and do the upkeep. It probably makes sense to have a "cottage industry" as a requirement, as well, since the goal is to move people out of the major economic channels. [Also, the goal would be to build community. So bits of land close to one another would be best, and some sort of community building activity could be a requirement.] The way I see it "economic growth" is a never-ending treadmill that makes housing costs and rents go up and up and up. That foundation could start moving people off the treadmill. If people get tax deductions for donating a car, there must be a great break for gifts of land. And in today's society, with so many folks living to old age with next to no family, willing one's land to a community-focused foundation would, over the long haul, accrete sizable portions of real estate. [The only remaining requirement is a board to run the foundation.] That's MY idea, you pea-brained son of a foul-mouthed, bad-breath baboon. :_) From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 17 14:21:48 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7AAC556FF7; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 099C156FF4 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA20904 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8HLdqi14888 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D87A167.E6BCF255@sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 14:40:55 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> <3D867BAC.AF12845C@sun.com> <3D8685B5.4050702@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Gerald Pierce wrote: > > Eric, I just have to chime in here. > Glad you did! > If you are pampering yourself spending your money on a lot of > "things" there is a good chance that you don't really know who > you are! You speak like you DO know. So tell me. > Ah. Past tense. It is only the recent realization of who I really am that it made it clear how much I was pampering myself. Before that, every option was equally valid. Now, some clearly align, while others don't. (More on that in a future post.) > With regard to all the "if only's, that is a really tough fight. > a more powerful approach would be to offer "charming deceptions" > that would provide forces and tools to assist people in waking up. > Sounds like a good description of something that would work. Know of any somethings that fit the description? > As people become more aware of their real relationship to the planet > their market demands will shift to products that do not shoot holes > in the other end of the lifeboat....big business ... will make and > sell what you ask for. > Actually, that inverts the efficiency equation. We let Fred make arrowheads, because he was the expert. He knew what stones to use, and he had acquired the most skill in making them. Besides, he had fun doing it. We could his mistakes for fewer beads than his treasures, but they always worked to hunt game. The really useless dreck never made it to the bargaining rock. In his early days, there was a lot of that... The "social contract" implicit in specialization is that we trust those who know the most to "look out for us". We may bargain over the price, but we expect useful goods. The science regarding partially hydrogenated oils has been known for 30 years. The public are only now beginning to learn what to ask for. (Since 2001, I've seen two TV segments and 2 newspaper articles. But hey, it's a start.) Basically, when capitalism is in the hands of those who don't care, it *must* be fettered by government. But with corporations increasingly become more powerful than government (viz. NAFTA), it's clear that an economic revolt of some kind is in order. > I think that there is a major opportunity for religious organization > to transform themselves by taking on this challenge. > I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a rationalization for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... It is probably not inaccurate to say that the worst of muslim fundamentalism is fueled by the worst of western capitalism, which by its dependence on oil funds the worst of muslim fundamentalism! A non-religious "do unto others" would make a big dent... From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 17 15:27:08 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BA6B256FF7; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4751956FF4 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-119a903.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.36.3] helo=gmob) by smtp6.mindspring.com with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17rR5j-0001QQ-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:45:11 -0400 From: "Graham Stalker-Wilde" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:44:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-to: <3D87A167.E6BCF255@sun.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric Armstrong wrote > I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a rationalization > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. ...... > A non-religious "do unto others" would make a big dent... I don't understand why you would need any rationalization for doing good. "If eyes were made for seeing then beauty is its own excuse for being", virtue likewise. We're a sociable species. We just grew up in communities much smaller than the one we find ourselves in now. Hence the need for the unrev. Lao Tzu said the three virtues were humility, moderation and love. No god there. Watching most theists I feel a distinct lack of any of these. To be fair that's more representative of the ones who get on TV - nothing more televisual than a rabid, slobbering, homophobe calling down eternal damnation on all who disagree with him. I'm reminded of Wittgenstein's comment on some firestone and brimstone street preacher: "If he knew what he was talking about he wouldn't use that tone of voice" Graham the "lame-brained, pea-headed, son of a skunk with no more sense than god gave a hammer" but remember - "When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a baby seal." From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 17 15:39:39 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0864156FF7; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 793B156FF4 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20375 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8HMvhi02065 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D87B3A6.97C6D394@sun.com> Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 15:58:46 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > > Eric Armstrong wrote > > I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a rationalization > > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. > ...... > > A non-religious "do unto others" would make a big dent... > > I don't understand why you would need any rationalization for doing good. > Do I need? No. But I note that religion *does* have the capacity to proseletyse effectively, and to gain converts to thier cause. If one does not appeal to their conception of God in making such an appeal, to what does one resort, to persuade others? Were reason to suffice, it would be grand. But the majority of appeals are emotional. > "If eyes were made for seeing then beauty is its own excuse for being", > virtue likewise. We're a sociable species. We just grew up in communities > much smaller than the one we find ourselves in now. Hence the need for the > unrev. > > Lao Tzu said the three virtues were humility, moderation and love. > No god there. .... I'm reminded of Wittgenstein's comment on some firestone and brimstone street preacher: "If he knew what he > was talking about he wouldn't use that tone of voice" > I like that. > Graham the "lame-brained, pea-headed, son of a skunk with no more sense than > god gave a hammer" > but remember - > "When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a baby seal." ROFL ...That was good. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 17 17:33:31 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E8BFC56FF7; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cs0.catv.ne.jp (cs0.catv.ne.jp [202.232.171.20]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DD19056FF4 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 17:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.135.194] by cs0.catv.ne.jp (8.9.1/3.7W) id JAA16899; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:51:36 +0900 (JST) Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:51:06 +0900 From: Hirohide Yamada To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor In-Reply-To: <3D867BAC.AF12845C@sun.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> <3D867BAC.AF12845C@sun.com> Message-Id: <20020918085209.C5C9.HYAMADA@dd.catv.ne.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Becky! ver. 2.05.04 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Perfect description. But one thing the great philosopher Vin > Diesel said at the Agora (aka Leno's place) was "invest in your > dreams". And *that* appears to be the antidote to overspending. > > (Actually, he said "invest in yourself". But I've followed that > advice for years. Unfortunately, it lets you pamper yourself to > death, indulging any interest that comes along -- but "invest in > your dreams" implies a focus on a goal, so that all expenditures > dovetail to help you get where you want to go, and be who you want > to be.) > :_) I feel 'invest in communication or relationship' works. I believe in the theory that human being has two fundamental needs to survive; *physiological needs; foods, house, various materials, etc. *communication needs When we were poor and not enough food for the family, physiological satisfaction (food for the dinner) brings family together and enhances communication. Human being has so long not have enough things for basic living, I think it is imbedded in our mind as a tacit knowledge that material satisfaction brings better communication. Very recently, it is not the case any more in the economically leading countries. If there is only one TV in a family, communication is forced among the family member to settle on the TV channels, but if everybody has a TV in their room, you do not have to communicate anymore. The point is that at a certain threshold beyond, physiologica satisfaction does not necessarily enhance communication but rather it effectively results in cutting the communication. Still our body(because of the tacit knowledge) seeks material satisfaction which destroys communication which results in seeking more materials. I think now is the time to restructure the society based not on physiological needs but on communication(mental needs), for which we will need more conscious efforts. I think Doug's ABC, NIC and collective IQ model addresses this. Hirohide Yamada On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:47:40 -0700 Eric Armstrong wrote: > Mighty post. Thanks. > > I began reading with a predisposition to accept his thesis. > In particular, I find his condemnation of market economies > as causing environmental degradation and loss of quality of > life (in some respects, at least) rather apt. > > However, when he argues that most of the goods go the rich > and _as a result_ people in poor countries are starving, I > think he may be confusomg correlation with causation. There is > definitely a correlation. I'm not sure about the causation, > but I remain open to demonstration -- which he seems to > point to when he talks about use of 3rd world lands -- but > whether they are better off with a market for goods, or worse > off because of it, I'm not yet totally convinced. > > (That is the only small issue in an otherwise fine post, though. > Of course, I eagerly anticipated some concrete alternative, > which I failed to find. But his analysis and his allusion to > information sources gives me hope...) > > As for banks and businesses sweeping away all obstacles, he is > dead on correct. The new keiretsu are, in effect, nation states > that are making geopgraphical boundaries obsolete. But is this > a good thing? > > In the 60's, I was sure that it was. At that time, I saw > *nationalism* as the fundamental enemy to human welfare. > Religious fantacism is a terrible thing, to be sure, but it > is only when it is combined with nationalism and governmental > power that it becomes demonizing. I saw then, and still see > now, that "nationalism" is the most likely cause of war and > catastrophe". > > Global corporations, because they cross boundaries, serve as > an effective antidote to war. But is the cure worse than the > disease? That is an open question. Having seen for myself the > misery that corporations are capable of inflicting in the name > of profit -- unless and until restrained by an act of government, > I am certainly not enthralled with government by corporate > entities. > > All of which brings me back to the separation of business and > state which is such a fundamental necessity. But it is perhaps > interesting that if it is business which makes war obsolete, it > may well be business which provides the motivation for the U.N. > to turn into something useful. Of course, that will take 50 > years or so, but the end result may well be a global magna carta > that takes power out of the hands of the wealthy aristocracy, > and returns it to the people once and for all. > > His point about market and its destructive effect on community > is equally well taken. Here, I resport to equilibrium theory as > the "right" way to think about the social contract. In fact, it > was with just this idea in mind that I eagerly read this message. > > Again, he is dead on when it comes to the commitment to growth, > which eats up resources -- not to mention that deading effect on > people who are financially enslaved to corporations, for lack of > any means of subsistence without them. (For this, I see 3-D > farming as a possible remedy.) > > Pollution, too, is a major concern. Granted, it is fueled by a > market economy. And like rats who overrun a ship, we may well > eat find ourselves with no usable environmental resources of any > kind. > > Hey! He references "a substantial and growing literature on the > basic form a sustainable society must take", and "small market > gardens (located) throughout cities". Now he's talking my > language! (Everytime I see a bare lot, I think about how a > great forest farm could be growing there.) > > And this, I love: "we could easily organise a much higher > quality of life at a much more relaxed pace than most of us have > now, with no reduction in the availability of modern medical or > other important technologies..." > > It sounds like quite a few people are thinking in the right > directions. Now if we can only get some concrete proposals and > take steps to get there... > > When I get the exercise equipment company off the ground, I > expect to have the wherewithal to focus on 3-D farming, music > instruction, and community building. In fact, it was during my > last start-up attempt that I reflected how beneficial it would > have been to have no rent to pay, and few groceries to buy. At > the moment, though, I'm as trapped as anyone else. > > If only I didn't have so many interests! (There was a great line > on one of the Law & Order shows last night -- "You're an > intelligent person and you have a lot of interests -- that you > spend a lot of money on -- so you don't have any.") > > Perfect description. But one thing the great philosopher Vin > Diesel said at the Agora (aka Leno's place) was "invest in your > dreams". And *that* appears to be the antidote to overspending. > > (Actually, he said "invest in yourself". But I've followed that > advice for years. Unfortunately, it lets you pamper yourself to > death, indulging any interest that comes along -- but "invest in > your dreams" implies a focus on a goal, so that all expenditures > dovetail to help you get where you want to go, and be who you want > to be.) > :_) > > > > Jack Park wrote: > > > > >From: Thommandel@aol.com > > ><< Relayed by Doug Everingham from an attachment to a message > > >From: "Alan Kerns" > > >To: [Economic Reform Australia list] > > >Subject: Re: [ERANet] Ockham's Razor - Uncertainty and Demonising - Eva Cox > > >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 4:12 AM > > >---------- > > > >From Eva Cox's radio program > > >Ockham's Razor -- transcript at > > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s658492.htm > > > or listening > > >to it (in RealAudio format) from > > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/audio/ockham_25082002_2856.ram > > > [15 > > >minutes] > > > > > > > > >Ockham's Razor - 16/02/1997 > > > > > >Let's Scrap The Economy > > > > > >Summary: > > > > > >Ted Trainer explains why the most important item on our agenda should be > > >almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory it's based > > >on. > > > > > >Transcript: > > > > > >Robyn Williams: The economy is on everybody's mind, as usual, sometimes to > > >the exclusion of most other affairs. So you'll be diverted, perhaps, to > > >learn that the title of this week's Ockham's Razor talk is "Let's Scrap the > > >Economy." No prisoners taken today. > > > > > >Well Dr Ted Trainer lectures in Social Work at the University of New South > > >Wales, and here's his case for abolition. > > > > > >Ted Trainer: I want to explain why the most important item on our agenda > > >should be almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory > > >it's based on. > > > > > >Firstly, this economy is obviously not solving our problems. In the last > > >four decades, real income per person in rich countries like Australia has > > >more or less trebled. Even in the recessed 1980s, Australia's GDP increased > > >by one-third in real terms. Now one would have thought that such large > > >increases would have enabled us to totally eliminate problems, such as debt, > > >insufficient casualty wards and especially poverty. But in fact it's > > >difficult to nominate one social or economic problem that's not become much > > >more serious. Unemployment, inequality and poverty increased, and we now > > >have perhaps 40,000 homeless people in Australia. In the 1980s Australia's > > >rural debt and our foreign debt both multiplied by about ten. In addition, > > >just about all indices of social breakdown and the experienced quality of > > >life deteriorated. > > > > > >It's not just that a system with that record is not likely to suddenly start > > >providing well for all. This economy causes the problems now literally > > >threatening the destruction of our ecosystems and our social cohesion in > > >coming decades. > > > > > >Consider firstly the market system. Markets do some things well and there > > >might be an important role for them in a satisfactory economy. But at > > >present, market forces are given far too much power to determine production, > > >distribution and development. It's no exaggeration to say that most of the > > >human misery and environmental damage in the world is directly due to the > > >operation of market forces. > > > > > >Access to the world's resources is grossly unjust. One fifth of the world's > > >people are taking and using up about 80% of all the resources produced and > > >two to three billion people are seriously deprived. While we squander > > >resources on affluent consumer lifestyles, between one and two billion > > >people have insufficient food and unsafe drinking water. As a result, more > > >than 30,000 people die every day. > > > > > >The main reason for this extreme deprivation and injustice is that the > > >global economy is a market system, and in a market most of the available > > >resources go to those who can pay most for them. That's why Australia has an > > >average energy consumption that is 18 times the average for the poorest half > > >of the world's people. And it's why more than 500-million tonnes of grain - > > >about one-third of the world's total production - is fed to animals in rich > > >countries every year to produce meat, while millions in the Third World are > > >hungry. > > > > > >Even more important, is the fact that market forces draw Third World > > >productive capacity into producing things to export to rich countries, when > > >anyone can see that those resources should be used by Third World people to > > >produce for themselves the basic goods they need. The most disturbing > > >example of this is the vast area of the best Third World land growing crops > > >to export to our supermarkets. > > > > > >Hence, we see the essential characteristic of conventional growth and > > >trickle-down development. That is, the fact that it results in development > > >which is almost entirely inappropriate to the needs of most Third World > > >people. When what's developed is determined by market forces, by what will > > >be most profitable to those with money to invest and money to buy products, > > >then the inevitable result will be development of the wrong > > >things; development mostly of what will benefit the rich. In the last decade > > >we have entered an era in which these impoverishing effects of the market > > >will rapidly accelerate, because we're now seeing the "globalisation" of the > > >world economy. Since the 1970s it has become > > >increasingly difficult for corporations and banks to find enough profitable > > >investment outlets. Now they're solving this problem by a huge effort to > > >sweep away all the tariffs and protection and arrangements which previously > > >enabled large numbers of people and regions to produce and sell things. The > > >freedom of trade has been made into the supreme sacred value and anything > > >which restricts the access of the big corporations and banks to resources > > >and markets is being eliminated. > > > > > >Why are the economic and political leaders of all countries eagerly going > > >along with this push for globalisation and absolute freedom of trade, fully > > >opening their societies to the predations of the transnational corporations > > >and banks? The answer is, because they have studied conventional economics > > >and the only way they know to try to solve their problems is to "get the > > >economy going", to crank up more production and consumption, and of course > > >the best way to get more business turnover happening is to give the > > >corporations even more freedom to buy and sell. The sane alternative is > > >never considered: that is, to make sure that Australia's abundant land, > > >labour and capital is fully applied to producing what we need for a very > > >satisfactory and secure existence, sharing the work, letting in only those > > >foreign corporations that will produce what we want, trading only a little, > > >to earn the export income needed to import only those things we can't > > >produce easily. > > > > > >The second major criticism of our economy concerns the destructive relation > > >between the market and society. A number of economic historians, such as > > >Polanyi, have pointed out that the more the economy prospers, the more that > > >desirable social bonds and cohesion are undermined. > > > > > >A society is made up of many intangible social bonds, ties, commitments and > > >relations - for example, bonds of familiarity, friendship, trust, > > >obligation, morality and tradition. These social values are contradicted by > > >the values and attitudes that the market requires. In a market situation > > >your attention is focused on maximising your individual gain and guarding > > >against exploitation. The market situation does not encourage you to think > > >about what is good for the other person or for society. The more we turn to > > >market relations, the less emphasis we're putting on relations that build > > >social concern and cohesion. As Polanyi and others have explained, in all > > >pre-capitalist societies, markets and the maximisation of individual income > > >were either of trivial significance or did not exist at all. Social factors, > > >such as moral codes, religion and tradition were the important criteria > > >determining production, distribution and development. > > > > > >This clash between the economy and society becomes obvious when we ask what > > >would happen if we allowed production and distribution within a family to be > > >determined by what would maximise sales or cash income. If Mum started > > >making the toast and then selling it to the highest bidder, the economic > > >efficiency of the domestic scene would be greatly improved, but the kids > > >wouldn't get much toast because Dad can bid much more than they can. In no > > >time, the desirable social relations which ensure that Grandpa can have some > > >toast, even though he is economically useless, would be replaced by > > >calculations about individual cash advantage. In other words, merely > > >economic calculations of individual advantage would drive out the social > > >relations and concerns whereby in a good society we do many things because > > >they are right, or nice, or just, without regard to whether or not they're > > >profitable or economically efficient. Hence we can understand why Polanyi > > >emphasised that the self-interest which market relations are about will > > >literally destroy society and its ecosystems if they're not kept under close > > >control. > > > > > >I come now to the most serious of all the faults built into this economy. > > >This is simply the mindless commitment to growth in a world of limited > > >resources. You cannot go on and on forever increasing output on a planet > > >with limited energy, mineral, biological and environmental resources. But > > >conventional economists on the Left and the Right refuse to think about > > >this. > > > > > >It's recently been estimated that each person in Sydney requires 4.5 > > >hectares of productive land. If all the world's people were to live as > > >people in Sydney do, we would need three times all the productive land on > > >the planet and for the expected world population of 11-billion by about > > >2070, we'd need six times that area. Clearly it's impossible for all to live > > >as we do. > > > > > >The greenhouse problem provides another powerful argument. The > > >Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has said that we must cut global > > >carbon emissions by 60% to 80%. If we cut it by 60% and share the remaining > > >energy among the 11-billion people expected after 2060, each of us would > > >have to get by on only one-eighteenth of the energy we now average in > > >Australia. Most people have no idea that we must face up to such huge > > >reductions in consumption if we are to solve the big problems. > > > > > >But we have an economy which cannot tolerate any reduction in the volume of > > >production or sales. In fact unless output grows at more than 3% per annum, > > >there are serious problems, especially of unemployment. It is obviously not > > >an economy that could enable us to just produce sufficient to provide us all > > >with good lifestyles, or a stable minimum amount of resource use and work. > > > > > >If you examine potentially recoverable resource estimates for minerals and > > >fuels, you will find that if all people were to live as we in rich countries > > >do, then most resources would be totally exhausted in something like four > > >decades. These have been some of the lines of argument which I think show > > >that there is no possibility of all people rising to anything like the > > >living standards people in Australia take for granted today. > > > > > >During the 1980s Australia had about 3.2% per annum growth, but this was far > > >from sufficient because all our problems became more serious. Let's assume > > >4% would be sufficient for a healthy economy, and let's assume we keep that > > >up to 2060, and that by then all the world's people will have risen to the > > >living standards we would then have. Do you realise that world economic > > >output would then be 220 times what it is today? Even if the world as a > > >whole were only to average 3% growth from here on, then by 2060 total world > > >output would be eight times what it is now. I have just explained that there > > >are convincing reasons for concluding that the present amount of world > > >output is totally unsustainable, let alone any multiple of it. > > > > > >There is now a substantial and growing literature on the basic form a > > >sustainable society must take, given the limits to growth analysis of our > > >situation. An almost completely new economy must be eventually developed, a > > >Third Way, quite different from the capitalist and the big-state socialist > > >ways. It must be made up of many small scale, highly self-sufficient local > > >economies, involving much simpler and less affluent lifestyles than we have > > >now, and much more co-operative arrangements. There could be a role for > > >market forces and free enterprise in the form of mostly small businesses, > > >but these would have to be under strict social control. Above all, it would > > >have to be a zero growth or steady state economy, in which we can just > > >produce enough for a high quality of life for all without constantly > > >increasing production or consumption. > > > > > >Among the ideas being discussed and implemented are locating small market > > >gardens throughout cities, planting our suburbs with edible landscapes that > > >will provide free food and materials, decentralising much production to > > >small local firms, many of which might operate in craft ways, having our own > > >town and suburban banks with elected boards ensuring that our savings can be > > >invested in enriching our own suburbs, moving much economic activity out of > > >the cash sector and into the realm of gifts, surplus swapping and > > >contributions to working bees, having suburban market days and running many > > >things via local voluntary committees.0 > > > > > >I have no doubt we could easily organise a much higher quality of life at a > > >much more relaxed pace than most of us have now, with no reduction in the > > >availability of modern medical or other important technologies, if most > > >people saw the desirability of restructuring towns and neighbourhoods along > > >the lines now being pioneered by the global Ecovillage and Permaculture > > >movements. > > > > > >It is astounding that although the limits to growth argument has been around > > >for about 25 years, there is almost no public discussion of it in Australia > > >today. The historian Toynbee analysed the rise and fall of civilisations in > > >terms of their capacity to respond to challenge. What can we say about our > > >prospects when we show almost no ability to even recognise that an economy > > >committed to affluence and growth is totally incompatible with ecological or > > >social sustainability. > > > > > >Robyn Williams: Ted Trainer lectures in the Department of Social Work at the > > >University of New South Wales. If you'd like to read more about the details > > >of a sustainable society according to him, you can get hold of his two > > >recent books: one is "The Conserver Society" published by Zed Books; and the > > >other is Towards a Sustainable Economy, by Envirobooks. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 17 23:59:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id AAFDB56FF7; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5A69A56FF4 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2002 23:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacbell.net ([12.233.136.46]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020918071719.IMHN6128.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@pacbell.net> for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:17:19 +0000 Message-ID: <3D88288B.90706@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:17:31 -0700 From: Gerald Pierce User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> <3D867BAC.AF12845C@sun.com> <3D8685B5.4050702@pacbell.net> <3D87A167.E6BCF255@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric Armstrong wrote: >>If you are pampering yourself spending your money on a lot of >>"things" there is a good chance that you don't really know who >>you are! You speak like you DO know. So tell me. >> > > Ah. Past tense. It is only the recent realization of who I really am > that it made it clear how much I was pampering myself. Before that, > every option was equally valid. Now, some clearly align, while others > don't. (More on that in a future post.) >>With regard to all the "if only's, that is a really tough fight. >>a more powerful approach would be to offer "charming deceptions" >>that would provide forces and tools to assist people in waking up. >> > > Sounds like a good description of something that would work. > Know of any somethings that fit the description? If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. If I told you, I whould have to kill you. Here is an experiment you can try that may get you pointed in a fruitful direction direction. The next time you are in really bad vibe traffic and you are feeling hateful and uncooperative, help where you can and by your actions promote harmony. After you have done this for a bit, check out how you are feeling. You could arrive at your destination in rush-hour traffic feeling refreshed, empowered and living a life less wasted. > I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a rationalization > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... I think that a system based on beliefs rather than observation is in trouble right from the start. People learn to believe and accept on faith such things as "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" The actual words remain unexamined. A good test is to ask yourself, what thoughts and actions aid my digestion? For me it turns out that I won't allow myself to be forgiven UNTIL I forgive others. There may or may not be GOD, but this truth remains and sheds light on what it is to be human. I am open, however, to meeting someone for whom this is not true. A non-religious "do unto others" would make a big dent... p.s. If you really want to know, sleep outside of the gates for a while. > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 00:05:34 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A83DD56FF8; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (rwcrmhc52.attbi.com [216.148.227.88]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D4AC56FF7 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacbell.net ([12.233.136.46]) by rwcrmhc52.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020918072344.IOKV6128.rwcrmhc52.attbi.com@pacbell.net> for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 07:23:44 +0000 Message-ID: <3D882A0C.7070503@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 00:23:56 -0700 From: Gerald Pierce User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> <3D867BAC.AF12845C@sun.com> <3D8685B5.4050702@pacbell.net> <3D87A167.E6BCF255@sun.com> <3D88288B.90706@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Just read what I said. Can't decide which is worse, my pettiness or my arrogance Gerald Pierce wrote: > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > >>> If you are pampering yourself spending your money on a lot of >>> "things" there is a good chance that you don't really know who you >>> are! You speak like you DO know. So tell me. >>> >> >> Ah. Past tense. It is only the recent realization of who I really am >> that it made it clear how much I was pampering myself. Before that, >> every option was equally valid. Now, some clearly align, while others >> don't. (More on that in a future post.) > > >>> With regard to all the "if only's, that is a really tough fight. >>> a more powerful approach would be to offer "charming deceptions" that >>> would provide forces and tools to assist people in waking up. >>> >> >> Sounds like a good description of something that would work. >> Know of any somethings that fit the description? > > > If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. > If I told you, I whould have to kill you. > Here is an experiment you can try that may get you pointed in > a fruitful direction direction. The next time you are in really bad > vibe traffic and you are feeling hateful and uncooperative, help where > you can and by your actions promote harmony. After you have done this > for a bit, check out how you are feeling. You could arrive at your > destination in rush-hour traffic feeling refreshed, empowered and living > a life less wasted. > > >> I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a rationalization >> for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such >> a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well >> as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > I think that a system based on beliefs rather than observation is in > trouble right from the start. People learn to believe and accept on faith > such things as "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who > trespass against us" The actual words remain unexamined. A good test > is to ask yourself, what thoughts and actions aid my digestion? For me > it turns out that I won't allow myself to be forgiven UNTIL I forgive > others. There may or may not be GOD, but this truth remains and sheds > light on what it is to be human. I am open, however, to meeting someone > for whom this is not true. > A non-religious "do unto others" would make a big dent... > > p.s. If you really want to know, sleep outside of the gates for a while. > >> > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 02:44:51 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 99B3F56FF7; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 02:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mrburns.nildram.co.uk (mrburns.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6012156FF4 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 02:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwdemocracy.org (pm7-224.dial.nildram.co.uk [195.149.0.224]) by mrburns.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A3E01E2286 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:02:53 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D884A37.2090804@wwdemocracy.org> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:41:11 +0100 From: John Turnbull User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] [Fwd: World Wide Democracy Network Newsletter 02] References: <3D827508.43EE1E10@sympatico.ca> <3D827792.47025B94@sun.com> <3D8291DB.7A51D6F7@sympatico.ca> <3D82A0FB.B15EC831@sun.com> <3D82BA55.E39E2B14@sympatico.ca> <001601c25bc4$d3d403c0$ca4d87d9@vaio> <3D831A03.A30921E5@sympatico.ca> <003301c25c0a$f4e6f400$32d5193e@vaio> <3D83928A.51C9CB39@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080303060508030707090305" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------080303060508030707090305 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello again, I've been through the postings so far and, together with my colleague, Roy Madron, tried to address some of the questions and concerns about the WWDN. I hope this gives a clearer picture of what we're about. I think the best way to proceed is for Peter to stay involved as a co-learner - baa-unrev's eyes and ears at the WWDN. Then, a few months down the line, we can start to think about the possibilities for colaboration. Answers/comments: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henry: I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner - ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy Network, www.wwdemocracy.org... On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan JT/WWDN: The WWDN has no links with any political party (I'm assuming that's what you mean, Henry). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henry: Might some people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at the issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded organizations in a way that they become complementary. JT/WWDN: We are entirely open to collaboration and are setting up a Discussion Forum on the website to explore possibilities (should be ready in the next couple of weeks). In the long run we are more interested in working on substantive questions in face-to-face group-dialogues after conducting the preliminaries electronically. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henry wrote: Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it? JT/WWDN: Not sure what 'NIC' refers to here - can anyone explain? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Eric wrote: If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such organizations as interested in it, that might well make the project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that individual countries might want to contribute to, as well JT/WWDN: I'd be interested to know bit more about what preliminary processes/requirements such approaches might entail ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henry: They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to wade through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative aspects within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly Fleabyte's - a principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to facilitate by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means for becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen. JT/WWDN: Improving participation by electronic means is certainly something we are open to. However, we want to avoid the idea that people have to be educated for, to qualify for, to be approved as fit for citizenship. The need is for finding hundreds of ways of thinking, acting and learning together as citizens. If we learn from each other as part of the process of understanding and re-configuring our societies we all become better citizens through generating and acquiring shared knowledge and understanding. We will happily discuss the underlying assumptions of Western Democracies in more detail on our Discussion Forum or see "The Gaian Model of democracy", both on the website. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henry: Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global Agora. I do not know what strength there is in the WWDN. JT/WWDN: "Liberating leadership" is a key component in the Gaian Model of Democracy (see website). We have many ideas and much experience in this area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Peter: their approach to leadership seems much more like concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with the agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned. That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the necessary leverage to set things rolling though. JT/WWDN: Peter is quite right here: the task we face is primarily political and will require leadership - liberating leadership (please see the paper on Gaian democracy for more thoughts on this). We don't believe, as some do, that civil society organisations are the answer to the democratic deficit (worthy as their aims might be). Real democracy can only come from a truly democratic political system, not from unelected NGO's acting as a counterbalance to government and big business. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Peter: Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation, pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any technology beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the high-tech, armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values more firmly. JT/WWDN: We need to avoid processes in which individuals take a spare ten minutes to fire off their ideas and then mainly spectate electronically. Such processes have very limited democratic possibilities: citizens have no opportunity to interact face-to face with others, to `think, act and learn together' over hours, days, months, years and - eventually - generations. A crucial part of the PB is that the citizens actually reveal who they are to each other, begin to develop collective purposes, understanding and knowledge whatever their age, wealth, background or education. Within that context there is much need of all the tools for thinking and learning that can be mustered; but without that context the tools are just that - tools without a meaningful task to apply them to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henry: It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR" part, that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda. Myself, I like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says or writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it seems to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the word "corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker of certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word "sustainable," which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's) participation in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning whereas "growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of circumstance. But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to sustain mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through the week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different people as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is good. (If not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more discontent.) JT/WWDN: Removing corporate capitalism of the kind that has grown up over the last 50 years does not have to mean removing incentive, or enterprise or innovation - they managed quite well in Athens, Rome, Florence etc before capitalism. I would refer you to the recent postings on baa-unrev following Ted Trainer's Let's Scrap the Economy (heading: Ockham's Razor). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Peter: I was not suggesting that WWDN were tech-phobic in themselves. Merely that the processes they are dealing with require appropriate technology - which might in some cases mean no high-technology whatsoever. JT/WWDN: We are not tech-phobic, though we would certainly benefit from an input of technical expertise. This is something we hope to put right through collaboration with others further down the line. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Regards, John --------------080303060508030707090305 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello again,

I've been through the postings so far and, together with my colleague, Roy Madron, tried to address some of the questions and concerns about the WWDN. I hope this gives a clearer picture of what we're about.

I think the best way to proceed is for Peter to stay involved as a co-learner - baa-unrev's eyes and ears at the WWDN. Then, a few months down the line, we can start to think about the possibilities for colaboration.

Answers/comments:

Henry:
I wonder what this forum thinks about associating - and in what manner - ourselves (i.e. Bootstrap AND/OR Fleabyte) with the newly formed, London-based organization that calls itself the World Wide Democracy Network, www.wwdemocracy.org...

On first sight, the organization appears to be non-partisan

JT/WWDN:
The WWDN has no links with any political party (I’m assuming that’s what you mean, Henry).

Henry:
Might some people on this forum be interested in forming a committee to look at the issue of locating, evaluating and co-operating with like-minded organizations in a way that they become complementary.

JT/WWDN:
We are entirely open to collaboration and are setting up a Discussion Forum on the website to explore possibilities (should be ready in the next couple of weeks). In the long run we are more interested in working on substantive questions in face-to-face group-dialogues after conducting the preliminaries electronically.

Henry wrote:
Although seemingly somewhat different than what Doug has in mind, it does have a bit of a NIC aspect to it as well, hasn't it?

JT/WWDN:
Not sure what ‘NIC’ refers to here – can anyone explain?

Eric wrote:
If we had a proposal, and could sign up a few such organizations as interested in it, that might well make the project something the U.N. would want to sponsor, and that individual countries might want to contribute to, as well

JT/WWDN:
I’d be interested to know bit more about what preliminary processes/requirements such approaches might entail

Henry:
They (World Wide Democracy Network) have quite a bit of documentation to wade through, but what I am gathering is that they are basically a discussion/learning group, but one bold enough to look at alternative aspects within democratic structures. From our point of view - certainly Fleabyte's – a principal requirement is informed participation, something we seek to facilitate by digital augmentation, especially of the individual by providing means for becoming a better informed and, hence, better judging citizen.

JT/WWDN:
Improving participation by electronic means is certainly something we are open to. However, we want to avoid the idea that people have to be educated for, to qualify for, to be approved as fit for citizenship. The need is for finding hundreds of ways of thinking, acting and learning together as citizens. If we learn from each other as part of the process of understanding and re-configuring our societies we all become better citizens through generating and acquiring shared knowledge and understanding. We will happily discuss the underlying assumptions of Western Democracies in more detail on our Discussion Forum or see "The Gaian Model of democracy", both on the website.

Henry:
Incidentally, there seems to be some leadership potential in the Global Agora. I do not know what strength there is in the WWDN.

JT/WWDN:
"Liberating leadership" is a key component in the Gaian Model of Democracy (see website). We have many ideas and much experience in this area.

Peter:
their approach to leadership seems much more like concerted facilitation of activation of public participation programs with the agenda subsequently to be set and changed largely by the public concerned.
That does require that political leaders committed to the cause gain the necessary leverage to set things rolling though.

JT/WWDN:
Peter is quite right here: the task we face is primarily political and will require leadership – liberating leadership (please see the paper on Gaian democracy for more thoughts on this). We don’t believe, as some do, that civil society organisations are the answer to the democratic deficit (worthy as their aims might be). Real democracy can only come from a truly democratic political system, not from unelected NGO’s acting as a counterbalance to government and big business.

Peter:
Their key example involves Brazilian cities where pro-public-participation, pro-labour groups have gained significant standing, and where the public participants may or may not be high-tech (they make no mention of any technology beyond legwork). In fact, and this looks to me like a crucial point, in some respects their whole ideal is geared towards avoiding reliance on the high-tech, armchair politics of the nerd society (possibly of necessity) in favour of direct social contact as the means to engendering positive community values more firmly.

JT/WWDN:
We need to avoid processes in which individuals take a spare ten minutes to fire off their ideas and then mainly spectate electronically. Such processes have very limited democratic possibilities: citizens have no opportunity to interact face-to face with others, to `think, act and learn together’ over hours, days, months, years and - eventually - generations.  A crucial part of the PB is that the citizens actually reveal who they are to each other, begin to develop collective purposes, understanding and knowledge whatever their age, wealth, background or education. Within that context there is much need of all the tools for thinking and learning that can be mustered; but without that context the tools are just that - tools without a meaningful task to apply them to.

Henry:
It is the "BY" part in which we may play a positive role. As for the "FOR" part, that scares me a little because of a slight odor of political propaganda. Myself, I like to stay clear of left-right categorization - although anything one says or writes is immediately placed in either of these trays. So, with that risk, it seems to me personally that "transnational capitalism" (I deliberately left out the word "corporate") is at once a motor for growth (the capitalism part) and a slaker of certain kinds of global barriers. I am also worried about that word "sustainable," which was an invention much promoted to foster (especially India's) participation in the Rio summit on the environment. Capitalism needs a lot of fine-tuning whereas "growth" a clearer definition of what kind of growth in what kind of circumstance.
But, human nature being what it is, removing capitalism leaves little to sustain mass incentive. Being just is good for Sundays, but hardly carries us through the week. Besides, that word like "just" means all sorts of things to different people as apparent, for example, by the changing juxtaposition of poor-vs-rich to a media-fanned Arabic-vs-Western clash. At any rate, for a group of people to co-operatively think about these matters and do so IN A PRODUCTIVE WAY is good. (If not done in a productive way, all the talk will only create even more discontent.)

JT/WWDN:
Removing corporate capitalism of the kind that has grown up over the last 50 years does not have to mean removing incentive, or enterprise or innovation – they managed quite well in Athens, Rome, Florence etc before capitalism. I would refer you to the recent postings on baa-unrev following Ted Trainer’s Let’s Scrap the Economy (heading: Ockham's Razor).

Peter:
I was not suggesting that WWDN were tech-phobic in themselves. Merely that the processes they are dealing with require appropriate technology - which might in some cases mean no high-technology whatsoever.

JT/WWDN:
We are not tech-phobic, though we would certainly benefit from an input of technical expertise. This is something we hope to put right through collaboration with others further down the line.

Regards,

John
--------------080303060508030707090305-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 08:05:14 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D626256FF7; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu07.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu13.email.msn.com [207.46.181.88]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CF6056FF4 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:05:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.39.60]) by cpimssmtpu07.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4617); Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:22:15 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Cc: "Bootstrap Alliance Unrev" Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:23:18 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <3D882A0C.7070503@pacbell.net> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Sep 2002 15:22:15.0790 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B7EF8E0:01C25F27] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Funny, I just forwarded your note to an associate, remarking that "There are some rich personal journeys that we see glimpses of on ba-unrev-talk also. "I found this very touching. It resonates with the training and development [that my wife and I have taken on and] it has a lot of heart and personal courage in it." So maybe you didn't say it as perfectly as you would like. I think your humanity shows through, just the same, and we get to know in this passing, a little more of who you and Eric are, in your lives and for the world. Maybe something to add here is "Find an empowering interpretation in what you hear and what is happening." Thanks for the note, and thanks for your humility, -- Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Gerald Pierce Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 00:24 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. Just read what I said. Can't decide which is worse, my pettiness or my arrogance Gerald Pierce wrote: > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > >>> If you are pampering yourself spending your money on a lot of >>> "things" there is a good chance that you don't really know who you >>> are! You speak like you DO know. So tell me. >>> >> >> Ah. Past tense. It is only the recent realization of who I really am >> that it made it clear how much I was pampering myself. Before that, >> every option was equally valid. Now, some clearly align, while others >> don't. (More on that in a future post.) > > >>> With regard to all the "if only's, that is a really tough fight. >>> a more powerful approach would be to offer "charming deceptions" that >>> would provide forces and tools to assist people in waking up. >>> >> >> Sounds like a good description of something that would work. >> Know of any somethings that fit the description? > > > If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. > If I told you, I whould have to kill you. > Here is an experiment you can try that may get you pointed in > a fruitful direction direction. The next time you are in really bad > vibe traffic and you are feeling hateful and uncooperative, help where > you can and by your actions promote harmony. After you have done this > for a bit, check out how you are feeling. You could arrive at your > destination in rush-hour traffic feeling refreshed, empowered and living > a life less wasted. > > >> I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a rationalization >> for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such >> a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well >> as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > I think that a system based on beliefs rather than observation is in > trouble right from the start. People learn to believe and accept on faith > such things as "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who > trespass against us" The actual words remain unexamined. A good test > is to ask yourself, what thoughts and actions aid my digestion? For me > it turns out that I won't allow myself to be forgiven UNTIL I forgive > others. There may or may not be GOD, but this truth remains and sheds > light on what it is to be human. I am open, however, to meeting someone > for whom this is not true. > A non-religious "do unto others" would make a big dent... > > p.s. If you really want to know, sleep outside of the gates for a while. > >> > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 08:05:58 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 90ACA56FF8; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mercury.open.ac.uk (mercury.open.ac.uk [137.108.128.150]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E514856FF7 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from morse.open.ac.uk by mercury.open.ac.uk via SMTP Local (Mailer 3.1) with ESMTP; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:23:46 +0100 Received: by morse.open.ac.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:23:45 +0100 Message-ID: From: V.S.Uren@open.ac.uk To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:23:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Re: I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a rationalization > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > This sounds like a notion I call "practical karma" (I confess to not being very spiritual). Putting it another way, you get back what you give out (most of the time). So - you don't drive aggressively & the lorry drivers give you room to pull in (yes *really*) - you help out the folk you work with then with the exception of a few b******s they will help you - you ground your economy on exploiting poorer less powerful nations you take the consequences... Actually that last one is the problem - I don't know if you can extend practical karma beyond the individual level. Victoria Uren From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 10:49:55 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EA3C256FF7; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.173]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A08E56FF4 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-64.ditto.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.114.64] helo=vaio) by cmailg3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17rjEx-0005yl-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 19:07:56 +0100 Message-ID: <001001c25f3d$f4fd9b20$407287d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 19:05:20 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > That's MY idea, you pea-brained son of a foul-mouthed, bad-breath > baboon. > :_) Ouch! Any more like that and I'll get my top-notch Monty Python's Professional Insulting Kit out of mothballs. Then you'll be sorry. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Armstrong" To: ; "hm" Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2002 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > With respect, I think it is no longer possible to divorce discussion of > > augmentation from discussion of the social relations into which it is bound. The > > biggest complex, urgent problem on offer is to work out how to take our > > collective foot off the accelerator pedal of obsession with capital > > accumulation. > > > I'm inclined to agree completely, on this point. Doing so would create > an immediate reduction in stress -- both on individuals and the > environment. > > Interestingly, this morning I was reading a small article in NewsWeek > from a few weeks ago, talking about people who quite fast-paced > jobs for "summer jobs". > > The fellow it was about had left a career and ulcers behind to work > mornings making salads. He'd make about $75, and spend the afternoon > at the beach. Got to wear a coyboy hat to work, and a grin on his > face as big as all outdoors. > > So there is movement in that direction. The time is right. > So: Without calling you lame-brained, pea-headed, son of a skunk > with no more sense than god gave a hammer, how can we begin to > make that shift happen. > > Personally, I find the 3-D farming on the west coast of India > to be something of an inspiration. They grow most of their > food in the trees, bushes, shrubs, climbing vines, ground > crops, and root crops. (Hence "3-D". Note the 7 different levels. > They actually have 9, since they have coconut trees towering > over everything.) > > Small cottage industries provide the little extra they need, so > other than an hour or two a day, they are entirely self-sufficient. > All in all, it sounds like a pretty good balance. > > The really nice thing about 3-D farming is that you're surrounded > by trees, and there is no planting or tilling to be done. Harvesting, > too, is matter of doing a little every day (to eat), so it's a pretty > low-maintenance endeavor. > > Now then. MY idea is create a foundation which accepts gifts of > land. It then "rents" that land in perpetuity to folks who will > do 3-D farming on it, so long as they pay the taxes, and do the > upkeep. It probably makes sense to have a "cottage industry" as > a requirement, as well, since the goal is to move people out of > the major economic channels. > > [Also, the goal would be to build community. So bits of land > close to one another would be best, and some sort of community > building activity could be a requirement.] > > The way I see it "economic growth" is a never-ending treadmill > that makes housing costs and rents go up and up and up. That > foundation could start moving people off the treadmill. > > If people get tax deductions for donating a car, there must be > a great break for gifts of land. And in today's society, with > so many folks living to old age with next to no family, willing > one's land to a community-focused foundation would, over the > long haul, accrete sizable portions of real estate. > > [The only remaining requirement is a board to run the foundation.] > > That's MY idea, you pea-brained son of a foul-mouthed, bad-breath > baboon. > :_) > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 11:53:41 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5A91056FF7; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3944556FF4 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA07682 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:11:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8IJBii09243 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D88D032.4A7E74B7@sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:12:50 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor References: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> <3D867BAC.AF12845C@sun.com> <20020918085209.C5C9.HYAMADA@dd.catv.ne.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Guilty as charged! I think you're right, Hirohide. I need some of that salvation, myself. :_) Hirohide Yamada wrote: > > > Perfect description. But one thing the great philosopher Vin > > Diesel said at the Agora (aka Leno's place) was "invest in your > > dreams". And *that* appears to be the antidote to overspending. > > > > (Actually, he said "invest in yourself". But I've followed that > > advice for years. Unfortunately, it lets you pamper yourself to > > death, indulging any interest that comes along -- but "invest in > > your dreams" implies a focus on a goal, so that all expenditures > > dovetail to help you get where you want to go, and be who you want > > to be.) > > :_) > > I feel 'invest in communication or relationship' works. > I believe in the theory that human being has two fundamental needs > to survive; > *physiological needs; foods, house, various materials, etc. > *communication needs > When we were poor and not enough food for the family, physiological > satisfaction (food for the dinner) brings family together and enhances > communication. Human being has so long not have enough things for basic > living, I think it is imbedded in our mind as a tacit knowledge that > material satisfaction brings better communication. Very recently, > it is not the case any more in the economically leading countries. > > If there is only one TV in a family, communication is forced among the > family member to settle on the TV channels, but if everybody has a TV > in their room, you do not have to communicate anymore. The point is that > at a certain threshold beyond, physiologica satisfaction does not > necessarily enhance communication but rather it effectively results in > cutting the communication. Still our body(because of the tacit knowledge) > seeks material satisfaction which destroys communication which results > in seeking more materials. > > I think now is the time to restructure the society based not on > physiological needs but on communication(mental needs), for which we will > need more conscious efforts. I think Doug's ABC, NIC and collective IQ > model addresses this. > > Hirohide Yamada > > On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:47:40 -0700 > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > Mighty post. Thanks. > > > > I began reading with a predisposition to accept his thesis. > > In particular, I find his condemnation of market economies > > as causing environmental degradation and loss of quality of > > life (in some respects, at least) rather apt. > > > > However, when he argues that most of the goods go the rich > > and _as a result_ people in poor countries are starving, I > > think he may be confusomg correlation with causation. There is > > definitely a correlation. I'm not sure about the causation, > > but I remain open to demonstration -- which he seems to > > point to when he talks about use of 3rd world lands -- but > > whether they are better off with a market for goods, or worse > > off because of it, I'm not yet totally convinced. > > > > (That is the only small issue in an otherwise fine post, though. > > Of course, I eagerly anticipated some concrete alternative, > > which I failed to find. But his analysis and his allusion to > > information sources gives me hope...) > > > > As for banks and businesses sweeping away all obstacles, he is > > dead on correct. The new keiretsu are, in effect, nation states > > that are making geopgraphical boundaries obsolete. But is this > > a good thing? > > > > In the 60's, I was sure that it was. At that time, I saw > > *nationalism* as the fundamental enemy to human welfare. > > Religious fantacism is a terrible thing, to be sure, but it > > is only when it is combined with nationalism and governmental > > power that it becomes demonizing. I saw then, and still see > > now, that "nationalism" is the most likely cause of war and > > catastrophe". > > > > Global corporations, because they cross boundaries, serve as > > an effective antidote to war. But is the cure worse than the > > disease? That is an open question. Having seen for myself the > > misery that corporations are capable of inflicting in the name > > of profit -- unless and until restrained by an act of government, > > I am certainly not enthralled with government by corporate > > entities. > > > > All of which brings me back to the separation of business and > > state which is such a fundamental necessity. But it is perhaps > > interesting that if it is business which makes war obsolete, it > > may well be business which provides the motivation for the U.N. > > to turn into something useful. Of course, that will take 50 > > years or so, but the end result may well be a global magna carta > > that takes power out of the hands of the wealthy aristocracy, > > and returns it to the people once and for all. > > > > His point about market and its destructive effect on community > > is equally well taken. Here, I resport to equilibrium theory as > > the "right" way to think about the social contract. In fact, it > > was with just this idea in mind that I eagerly read this message. > > > > Again, he is dead on when it comes to the commitment to growth, > > which eats up resources -- not to mention that deading effect on > > people who are financially enslaved to corporations, for lack of > > any means of subsistence without them. (For this, I see 3-D > > farming as a possible remedy.) > > > > Pollution, too, is a major concern. Granted, it is fueled by a > > market economy. And like rats who overrun a ship, we may well > > eat find ourselves with no usable environmental resources of any > > kind. > > > > Hey! He references "a substantial and growing literature on the > > basic form a sustainable society must take", and "small market > > gardens (located) throughout cities". Now he's talking my > > language! (Everytime I see a bare lot, I think about how a > > great forest farm could be growing there.) > > > > And this, I love: "we could easily organise a much higher > > quality of life at a much more relaxed pace than most of us have > > now, with no reduction in the availability of modern medical or > > other important technologies..." > > > > It sounds like quite a few people are thinking in the right > > directions. Now if we can only get some concrete proposals and > > take steps to get there... > > > > When I get the exercise equipment company off the ground, I > > expect to have the wherewithal to focus on 3-D farming, music > > instruction, and community building. In fact, it was during my > > last start-up attempt that I reflected how beneficial it would > > have been to have no rent to pay, and few groceries to buy. At > > the moment, though, I'm as trapped as anyone else. > > > > If only I didn't have so many interests! (There was a great line > > on one of the Law & Order shows last night -- "You're an > > intelligent person and you have a lot of interests -- that you > > spend a lot of money on -- so you don't have any.") > > > > Perfect description. But one thing the great philosopher Vin > > Diesel said at the Agora (aka Leno's place) was "invest in your > > dreams". And *that* appears to be the antidote to overspending. > > > > (Actually, he said "invest in yourself". But I've followed that > > advice for years. Unfortunately, it lets you pamper yourself to > > death, indulging any interest that comes along -- but "invest in > > your dreams" implies a focus on a goal, so that all expenditures > > dovetail to help you get where you want to go, and be who you want > > to be.) > > :_) > > > > > > > > Jack Park wrote: > > > > > > >From: Thommandel@aol.com > > > ><< Relayed by Doug Everingham from an attachment to a message > > > >From: "Alan Kerns" > > > >To: [Economic Reform Australia list] > > > >Subject: Re: [ERANet] Ockham's Razor - Uncertainty and Demonising - Eva Cox > > > >Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 4:12 AM > > > >---------- > > > > >From Eva Cox's radio program > > > >Ockham's Razor -- transcript at > > > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s658492.htm > > > > or listening > > > >to it (in RealAudio format) from > > > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/audio/ockham_25082002_2856.ram > > > > [15 > > > >minutes] > > > > > > > > > > > >Ockham's Razor - 16/02/1997 > > > > > > > >Let's Scrap The Economy > > > > > > > >Summary: > > > > > > > >Ted Trainer explains why the most important item on our agenda should be > > > >almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory it's based > > > >on. > > > > > > > >Transcript: > > > > > > > >Robyn Williams: The economy is on everybody's mind, as usual, sometimes to > > > >the exclusion of most other affairs. So you'll be diverted, perhaps, to > > > >learn that the title of this week's Ockham's Razor talk is "Let's Scrap the > > > >Economy." No prisoners taken today. > > > > > > > >Well Dr Ted Trainer lectures in Social Work at the University of New South > > > >Wales, and here's his case for abolition. > > > > > > > >Ted Trainer: I want to explain why the most important item on our agenda > > > >should be almost completely scrapping our economy, along with the theory > > > >it's based on. > > > > > > > >Firstly, this economy is obviously not solving our problems. In the last > > > >four decades, real income per person in rich countries like Australia has > > > >more or less trebled. Even in the recessed 1980s, Australia's GDP increased > > > >by one-third in real terms. Now one would have thought that such large > > > >increases would have enabled us to totally eliminate problems, such as debt, > > > >insufficient casualty wards and especially poverty. But in fact it's > > > >difficult to nominate one social or economic problem that's not become much > > > >more serious. Unemployment, inequality and poverty increased, and we now > > > >have perhaps 40,000 homeless people in Australia. In the 1980s Australia's > > > >rural debt and our foreign debt both multiplied by about ten. In addition, > > > >just about all indices of social breakdown and the experienced quality of > > > >life deteriorated. > > > > > > > >It's not just that a system with that record is not likely to suddenly start > > > >providing well for all. This economy causes the problems now literally > > > >threatening the destruction of our ecosystems and our social cohesion in > > > >coming decades. > > > > > > > >Consider firstly the market system. Markets do some things well and there > > > >might be an important role for them in a satisfactory economy. But at > > > >present, market forces are given far too much power to determine production, > > > >distribution and development. It's no exaggeration to say that most of the > > > >human misery and environmental damage in the world is directly due to the > > > >operation of market forces. > > > > > > > >Access to the world's resources is grossly unjust. One fifth of the world's > > > >people are taking and using up about 80% of all the resources produced and > > > >two to three billion people are seriously deprived. While we squander > > > >resources on affluent consumer lifestyles, between one and two billion > > > >people have insufficient food and unsafe drinking water. As a result, more > > > >than 30,000 people die every day. > > > > > > > >The main reason for this extreme deprivation and injustice is that the > > > >global economy is a market system, and in a market most of the available > > > >resources go to those who can pay most for them. That's why Australia has an > > > >average energy consumption that is 18 times the average for the poorest half > > > >of the world's people. And it's why more than 500-million tonnes of grain - > > > >about one-third of the world's total production - is fed to animals in rich > > > >countries every year to produce meat, while millions in the Third World are > > > >hungry. > > > > > > > >Even more important, is the fact that market forces draw Third World > > > >productive capacity into producing things to export to rich countries, when > > > >anyone can see that those resources should be used by Third World people to > > > >produce for themselves the basic goods they need. The most disturbing > > > >example of this is the vast area of the best Third World land growing crops > > > >to export to our supermarkets. > > > > > > > >Hence, we see the essential characteristic of conventional growth and > > > >trickle-down development. That is, the fact that it results in development > > > >which is almost entirely inappropriate to the needs of most Third World > > > >people. When what's developed is determined by market forces, by what will > > > >be most profitable to those with money to invest and money to buy products, > > > >then the inevitable result will be development of the wrong > > > >things; development mostly of what will benefit the rich. In the last decade > > > >we have entered an era in which these impoverishing effects of the market > > > >will rapidly accelerate, because we're now seeing the "globalisation" of the > > > >world economy. Since the 1970s it has become > > > >increasingly difficult for corporations and banks to find enough profitable > > > >investment outlets. Now they're solving this problem by a huge effort to > > > >sweep away all the tariffs and protection and arrangements which previously > > > >enabled large numbers of people and regions to produce and sell things. The > > > >freedom of trade has been made into the supreme sacred value and anything > > > >which restricts the access of the big corporations and banks to resources > > > >and markets is being eliminated. > > > > > > > >Why are the economic and political leaders of all countries eagerly going > > > >along with this push for globalisation and absolute freedom of trade, fully > > > >opening their societies to the predations of the transnational corporations > > > >and banks? The answer is, because they have studied conventional economics > > > >and the only way they know to try to solve their problems is to "get the > > > >economy going", to crank up more production and consumption, and of course > > > >the best way to get more business turnover happening is to give the > > > >corporations even more freedom to buy and sell. The sane alternative is > > > >never considered: that is, to make sure that Australia's abundant land, > > > >labour and capital is fully applied to producing what we need for a very > > > >satisfactory and secure existence, sharing the work, letting in only those > > > >foreign corporations that will produce what we want, trading only a little, > > > >to earn the export income needed to import only those things we can't > > > >produce easily. > > > > > > > >The second major criticism of our economy concerns the destructive relation > > > >between the market and society. A number of economic historians, such as > > > >Polanyi, have pointed out that the more the economy prospers, the more that > > > >desirable social bonds and cohesion are undermined. > > > > > > > >A society is made up of many intangible social bonds, ties, commitments and > > > >relations - for example, bonds of familiarity, friendship, trust, > > > >obligation, morality and tradition. These social values are contradicted by > > > >the values and attitudes that the market requires. In a market situation > > > >your attention is focused on maximising your individual gain and guarding > > > >against exploitation. The market situation does not encourage you to think > > > >about what is good for the other person or for society. The more we turn to > > > >market relations, the less emphasis we're putting on relations that build > > > >social concern and cohesion. As Polanyi and others have explained, in all > > > >pre-capitalist societies, markets and the maximisation of individual income > > > >were either of trivial significance or did not exist at all. Social factors, > > > >such as moral codes, religion and tradition were the important criteria > > > >determining production, distribution and development. > > > > > > > >This clash between the economy and society becomes obvious when we ask what > > > >would happen if we allowed production and distribution within a family to be > > > >determined by what would maximise sales or cash income. If Mum started > > > >making the toast and then selling it to the highest bidder, the economic > > > >efficiency of the domestic scene would be greatly improved, but the kids > > > >wouldn't get much toast because Dad can bid much more than they can. In no > > > >time, the desirable social relations which ensure that Grandpa can have some > > > >toast, even though he is economically useless, would be replaced by > > > >calculations about individual cash advantage. In other words, merely > > > >economic calculations of individual advantage would drive out the social > > > >relations and concerns whereby in a good society we do many things because > > > >they are right, or nice, or just, without regard to whether or not they're > > > >profitable or economically efficient. Hence we can understand why Polanyi > > > >emphasised that the self-interest which market relations are about will > > > >literally destroy society and its ecosystems if they're not kept under close > > > >control. > > > > > > > >I come now to the most serious of all the faults built into this economy. > > > >This is simply the mindless commitment to growth in a world of limited > > > >resources. You cannot go on and on forever increasing output on a planet > > > >with limited energy, mineral, biological and environmental resources. But > > > >conventional economists on the Left and the Right refuse to think about > > > >this. > > > > > > > >It's recently been estimated that each person in Sydney requires 4.5 > > > >hectares of productive land. If all the world's people were to live as > > > >people in Sydney do, we would need three times all the productive land on > > > >the planet and for the expected world population of 11-billion by about > > > >2070, we'd need six times that area. Clearly it's impossible for all to live > > > >as we do. > > > > > > > >The greenhouse problem provides another powerful argument. The > > > >Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change has said that we must cut global > > > >carbon emissions by 60% to 80%. If we cut it by 60% and share the remaining > > > >energy among the 11-billion people expected after 2060, each of us would > > > >have to get by on only one-eighteenth of the energy we now average in > > > >Australia. Most people have no idea that we must face up to such huge > > > >reductions in consumption if we are to solve the big problems. > > > > > > > >But we have an economy which cannot tolerate any reduction in the volume of > > > >production or sales. In fact unless output grows at more than 3% per annum, > > > >there are serious problems, especially of unemployment. It is obviously not > > > >an economy that could enable us to just produce sufficient to provide us all > > > >with good lifestyles, or a stable minimum amount of resource use and work. > > > > > > > >If you examine potentially recoverable resource estimates for minerals and > > > >fuels, you will find that if all people were to live as we in rich countries > > > >do, then most resources would be totally exhausted in something like four > > > >decades. These have been some of the lines of argument which I think show > > > >that there is no possibility of all people rising to anything like the > > > >living standards people in Australia take for granted today. > > > > > > > >During the 1980s Australia had about 3.2% per annum growth, but this was far > > > >from sufficient because all our problems became more serious. Let's assume > > > >4% would be sufficient for a healthy economy, and let's assume we keep that > > > >up to 2060, and that by then all the world's people will have risen to the > > > >living standards we would then have. Do you realise that world economic > > > >output would then be 220 times what it is today? Even if the world as a > > > >whole were only to average 3% growth from here on, then by 2060 total world > > > >output would be eight times what it is now. I have just explained that there > > > >are convincing reasons for concluding that the present amount of world > > > >output is totally unsustainable, let alone any multiple of it. > > > > > > > >There is now a substantial and growing literature on the basic form a > > > >sustainable society must take, given the limits to growth analysis of our > > > >situation. An almost completely new economy must be eventually developed, a > > > >Third Way, quite different from the capitalist and the big-state socialist > > > >ways. It must be made up of many small scale, highly self-sufficient local > > > >economies, involving much simpler and less affluent lifestyles than we have > > > >now, and much more co-operative arrangements. There could be a role for > > > >market forces and free enterprise in the form of mostly small businesses, > > > >but these would have to be under strict social control. Above all, it would > > > >have to be a zero growth or steady state economy, in which we can just > > > >produce enough for a high quality of life for all without constantly > > > >increasing production or consumption. > > > > > > > >Among the ideas being discussed and implemented are locating small market > > > >gardens throughout cities, planting our suburbs with edible landscapes that > > > >will provide free food and materials, decentralising much production to > > > >small local firms, many of which might operate in craft ways, having our own > > > >town and suburban banks with elected boards ensuring that our savings can be > > > >invested in enriching our own suburbs, moving much economic activity out of > > > >the cash sector and into the realm of gifts, surplus swapping and > > > >contributions to working bees, having suburban market days and running many > > > >things via local voluntary committees.0 > > > > > > > >I have no doubt we could easily organise a much higher quality of life at a > > > >much more relaxed pace than most of us have now, with no reduction in the > > > >availability of modern medical or other important technologies, if most > > > >people saw the desirability of restructuring towns and neighbourhoods along > > > >the lines now being pioneered by the global Ecovillage and Permaculture > > > >movements. > > > > > > > >It is astounding that although the limits to growth argument has been around > > > >for about 25 years, there is almost no public discussion of it in Australia > > > >today. The historian Toynbee analysed the rise and fall of civilisations in > > > >terms of their capacity to respond to challenge. What can we say about our > > > >prospects when we show almost no ability to even recognise that an economy > > > >committed to affluence and growth is totally incompatible with ecological or > > > >social sustainability. > > > > > > > >Robyn Williams: Ted Trainer lectures in the Department of Social Work at the > > > >University of New South Wales. If you'd like to read more about the details > > > >of a sustainable society according to him, you can get hold of his two > > > >recent books: one is "The Conserver Society" published by Zed Books; and the > > > >other is Towards a Sustainable Economy, by Envirobooks. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 11:54:45 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E6BAE56FF8; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 697D656FF7 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08438 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8IJCoi09443 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D88D073.42543033@sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:13:55 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001001c25f3d$f4fd9b20$407287d9@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Peter Jones wrote: > > Ouch! > Any more like that and I'll get my top-notch Monty Python's Professional > Insulting Kit out of mothballs. > Then you'll be sorry. > THIS, I can't wait for. Published by the Ministry of Silly Walks, no doubt. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 12:06:34 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6A61756FF8; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.210]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F67856FF7 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-809.charmander.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.77.41] helo=vaio) by cmailm2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17rkRB-0002uw-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:24:38 +0100 Message-ID: <006f01c25f48$ab913720$407287d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001001c25f3d$f4fd9b20$407287d9@vaio> <3D88D073.42543033@sun.com> Subject: Largely OFFTOPIC: Augmenting Insults: WAS Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:22:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is great. http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/? An automatic Shakespearian insulter. The dark side of technology exposed. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Armstrong" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > Ouch! > > Any more like that and I'll get my top-notch Monty Python's Professional > > Insulting Kit out of mothballs. > > Then you'll be sorry. > > > THIS, I can't wait for. > Published by the Ministry of Silly Walks, no doubt. > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 12:36:19 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 171E856FF7; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3AD1C56FF4 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1025.charmeleon.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.83.1] helo=vaio) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17rkty-0004sp-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:54:23 +0100 Message-ID: <007501c25f4c$d37c7f20$407287d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001001c25f3d$f4fd9b20$407287d9@vaio> <3D88D073.42543033@sun.com> <006f01c25f48$ab913720$407287d9@vaio> Subject: On Augmenting Insults: WAS Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:51:47 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Intriguingly, it allows the insults to be separated from the intent. So I can write a really insulting message as, Dear So-and-so http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/, I have considered your proposals for Y and http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/ How you ever came to this idea http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/ I shall never know... etc. So, a question for all the wannabe lawyers out there is, if one of those insults would be libelous when inline, what's it's status if I just post the link instead? That raises issues for transclusions, I think. For example, imagine I had meant some other link, but had mistyped the URL so that it went to the auto-insulter. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Jones" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:22 PM Subject: Largely OFFTOPIC: Augmenting Insults: WAS Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor > This is great. > http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/? > An automatic Shakespearian insulter. > The dark side of technology exposed. > > -- > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Armstrong" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 8:13 PM > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Ockham's Razor > > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > > > Ouch! > > > Any more like that and I'll get my top-notch Monty Python's Professional > > > Insulting Kit out of mothballs. > > > Then you'll be sorry. > > > > > THIS, I can't wait for. > > Published by the Ministry of Silly Walks, no doubt. > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 13:04:31 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6A36356FF7; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.180]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 87D3756FF4 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 13:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-117.ditto.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.114.117] helo=vaio) by imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17rlLH-0007NA-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:22:35 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c25f50$c42e8280$757287d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Augmenting Open Source Licenses Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:19:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org An idea I had last night... What is missing from GPL to my mind, is a clause that allows the writer of the software to force commercial users to be more socially responsible. Something to the effect that commercial users must pay a designated sum to the registered charity (or charities) of the author's choosing. Each author could insert the name (or a link) to the charity of their choice. Bundled code (e.g. a particular rollout) would extract these and insert them as a group in the main license text. ?? Comments (minus perjorative adjectives) appreciated. -- Peter From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 15:21:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8643B56FF7; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D16356FF4 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04782 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:39:51 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8IMdoi22700 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:39:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D8900F8.F974CADD@sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:40:56 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: <4.2.0.58.20020914114040.00ae6a30@thinkalong.com> <3D867BAC.AF12845C@sun.com> <3D8685B5.4050702@pacbell.net> <3D87A167.E6BCF255@sun.com> <3D88288B.90706@pacbell.net> <3D882A0C.7070503@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Gerald Pierce wrote: > > Just read what I said. Can't decide which is worse, my pettiness or > my arrogance > LOL. It's SO hard to keep an even keel. You were in touch with that really positive inner spirit, and the words just flow. The words are so *right*. But when you look at them later, it's like you were standing on the mount or something. Been there. Got the T-shirt. I really liked a lot of what you had to say. Your 2nd post took all the "edge" off anything that had a bit of sting. Mostly, I really liked the idea about focusing on creating harmony in traffic. It's a good one. I work as hard to get out of the way of people who want to go faster as I do to get around people who want to go slower, but I've always done to optimize traffic flow. The idea of focusing on harmony hadn't occured to me. Good suggestion. > Gerald Pierce wrote: > > > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > >>> If you are pampering yourself spending your money on a lot of > >>> "things" there is a good chance that you don't really know who you > >>> are! You speak like you DO know. So tell me. > >>> > >> > >> Ah. Past tense. It is only the recent realization of who I really am > >> that it made it clear how much I was pampering myself. Before that, > >> every option was equally valid. Now, some clearly align, while others > >> don't. (More on that in a future post.) > > > > > >>> With regard to all the "if only's, that is a really tough fight. > >>> a more powerful approach would be to offer "charming deceptions" that > >>> would provide forces and tools to assist people in waking up. > >>> > >> > >> Sounds like a good description of something that would work. > >> Know of any somethings that fit the description? > > > > > > If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. > > If I told you, I whould have to kill you. > > Here is an experiment you can try that may get you pointed in > > a fruitful direction direction. The next time you are in really bad > > vibe traffic and you are feeling hateful and uncooperative, help where > > you can and by your actions promote harmony. After you have done this > > for a bit, check out how you are feeling. You could arrive at your > > destination in rush-hour traffic feeling refreshed, empowered and living > > a life less wasted. > > > > > >> I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a rationalization > >> for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > >> a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > >> as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > > > I think that a system based on beliefs rather than observation is in > > trouble right from the start. People learn to believe and accept on faith > > such things as "and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who > > trespass against us" The actual words remain unexamined. A good test > > is to ask yourself, what thoughts and actions aid my digestion? For me > > it turns out that I won't allow myself to be forgiven UNTIL I forgive > > others. There may or may not be GOD, but this truth remains and sheds > > light on what it is to be human. I am open, however, to meeting someone > > for whom this is not true. > > A non-religious "do unto others" would make a big dent... > > > > p.s. If you really want to know, sleep outside of the gates for a while. > > > >> > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 15:25:20 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 696F356FF8; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C5F7456FF7 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:25:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29592 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:43:25 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8IMhOi23439 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D8901CE.80E4D1B8@sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:44:30 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org "Dennis E. Hamilton" wrote: > > ... we get to know in this passing, a > little more of who you and Eric are, in your lives and for the world. > Speaking of which, I need PHOTOS for the people on this list. When people I've met post, I associate their name with a face, and I associate the comment with a face. Later, when I write about something they wrote, the face comes to mind, and I can put a name to it as I write. But my mind does not work in any way that will let me recall for more than 10 minutes the author of any particular comment, if I have never seen their face. I'm reduced to writing, "as someone mentioned earlier", or else go hunting through the archive to try to find the message. If only I had photos... P.S. Thanks! From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 15:30:44 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E4CF756FF9; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6383156FF8 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17280 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:48:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8IMmni24841 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D890313.A904A2CC@sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:49:55 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org V.S.Uren@open.ac.uk wrote: > > Re: I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a > rationalization > > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > > a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > > as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > > This sounds like a notion I call "practical karma"... > Yes. A belief in reincarnation is a *powerful* motivation for doing good. I look at it this way: It's not that I'm going to come back as a llama or an earthworm, or something. It's not even that I'm going to come back as some high-born or low-born person. It's that I'm going to come back to THIS world -- and I'm going to have live in the garden of eden (or cesspool) I create. Talk about incentive to take care of the environment... But those are quasi-religious notions. At the very least, they depend on a particular belief system. But for the secular humanists out there (of whom I counted myself one for a very long time), what is it that makes stealing wrong? And if "everyone knows" that stealing is wrong, why are there so many companies in the world who are "legally stealing" in every possible way that they can? Why is it the companies will do what no single individual would ever do, and sell what no one person would be proud to call his life's work? From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 15:37:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BC0A656FFA; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 48E8256FF9 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02992; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8IMtti26346; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:55:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D8904BD.70361E86@sun.com> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:57:01 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: Helen Shaw Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Augmenting Insults References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001001c25f3d$f4fd9b20$407287d9@vaio> <3D88D073.42543033@sun.com> <006f01c25f48$ab913720$407287d9@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Peter Jones wrote: > > This is great. > http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Shaker/? > An automatic Shakespearian insulter. > The dark side of technology exposed. > Got this on my third try: Methink'st thou art a general offence and every man should beat thee. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 16:23:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B285256FF7; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:23:09 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.79]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C16056FF4 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:23:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.39.60]) by cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4617); Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:40:11 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Cc: "Bootstrap Alliance Unrev" Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:41:14 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3D8901CE.80E4D1B8@sun.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Sep 2002 23:40:11.0904 (UTC) FILETIME=[BB0C3000:01C25F6C] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org My photo is at the home page of http://NuovoDoc.com/ And I think an unrev-talk rogues gallery would be wonderful. -- Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 15:45 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. [ ... ] Speaking of which, I need PHOTOS for the people on this list. When people I've met post, I associate their name with a face, and I associate the comment with a face. [ ... ] If only I had photos... P.S. Thanks! From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 20:19:07 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 811ED56FF7; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from granger.mail.mindspring.net (granger.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.148]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0C01B56FF4 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 20:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-119a903.biz.mindspring.com ([66.149.36.3] helo=gmob) by granger.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17rro4-0004hq-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:16:44 -0400 From: "Graham Stalker-Wilde" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 23:16:26 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-reply-to: <3D890313.A904A2CC@sun.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Nietzsche's version of karma (the eternal recurrence) is delightfully non religious. If we reincarnated based on past performance that would perhaps make us behave well, if we believed it, if we behaved rationally, but if we knew this was our one and only life? If we knew every moment was unrepeatable? How well ought we to behave then? -g -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 6:50 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. V.S.Uren@open.ac.uk wrote: > > Re: I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a > rationalization > > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > > a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > > as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > > This sounds like a notion I call "practical karma"... > Yes. A belief in reincarnation is a *powerful* motivation for doing good. I look at it this way: It's not that I'm going to come back as a llama or an earthworm, or something. It's not even that I'm going to come back as some high-born or low-born person. It's that I'm going to come back to THIS world -- and I'm going to have live in the garden of eden (or cesspool) I create. Talk about incentive to take care of the environment... But those are quasi-religious notions. At the very least, they depend on a particular belief system. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 18 21:39:05 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2325D56FFE; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB04656FFA for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacbell.net ([12.233.136.46]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020919045718.BYVL24545.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@pacbell.net> for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 04:57:18 +0000 Message-ID: <3D89593B.2080104@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 21:57:31 -0700 From: Gerald Pierce User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > Nietzsche's version of karma (the eternal recurrence) is delightfully non > religious. > > If we reincarnated based on past performance that would perhaps make us > behave well, if we believed it, if we behaved rationally, but if we knew > this was our one and only life? If we knew every moment was unrepeatable? > How well ought we to behave then? > > -g My own personal church is the Church of This Is It. It really isn't important whether it is true or not or whether you believe it. Just look for points in life where you were really "in the zone". When I am in church, I’m really with it. Sometimes it is terrifying (Korea Dec '53 firefight), (1961 motorcycle wreck head-on into a Chevy) and sometimes beautiful (birth of first daughter) and other times beyond description (no mind there to describe it) Pre-Olympic sailboat race (wind-weather-water-will all one) beat world champion by 2 boat lengths. Lately I find I can attend services simply by declaration..."This Is It!" Oddly enough this works even when waiting in line somewhere, which for most people definitely is not it. With regards to Reincarnation I have my own theory. (Wouldn't you just know it)? First of all we talk about coming back later as a ___________. Fill in the blank. One possible trap in this statement is the word “later”. If it is later, then you never really left. Time is a part of our world perhaps created to support linier thinking. Without time, there can be no cause and effect, no judgments, no knowledge of right and wrong, etc. With time one is removed from eternity (the eternal now) I have a suspicion that time was the forbidden fruit in Eden. WAIT, I’m way off track. Back to topic one. If dying involves going beyond time then reincarnation can be any time in the past, present or future. How many of us would we need to be to populate a world if that were so? Answer…ONE. That’s me all over. And you wonder why I help others on the freeway? Now when Jesus say love your enemy, it makes sense. And so on (usw, etc.) And also why when I am in “IT” there is a sense of oneness. Perhaps it is like the Sufi speak. There is nothing for you to learn, everything for you to remember. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 19 07:18:12 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8246B57019; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (smtp2.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.230]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8F2956FF3 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux (cs662583-231.satx.rr.com [66.25.83.231]) by txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8JEa3Rg021416 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 10:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Matthew Schneider To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Digital Dashboard Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 09:36:36 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200209190936.36770.matsch@sasites.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This from John Robb's Radio Blog:=20 http://jrobb.userland.com/2002/09/18.html#a2535 I suppose everyone here has seen some incarnation of a digital dashboard.= I=20 remember getting excited about having access to "everthing" on one screen= =20 back in '97 or thereabouts. John Robb points out in the comments to his=20 original blog that the "glue" is now largely available. I think we're get= ting=20 there. Matt P.S. Anyone else in this crowd use Radio (http://radio.userland.com/)? From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 19 07:24:32 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 3C9915701B; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D2C35701A for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:24:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jacklaptop ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020919144242.RMM21527.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@jacklaptop> for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:42:42 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020919073602.022259e0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 07:39:45 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Four Goals (was)Fwd: [issues] reply to Tony's comment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Paul Werbos, responding to some comments by Tony Judge on the Issues list, lists 4 goals, aiming towards which, in his opinion, are crucial to the future. >From: "Paul J. Werbos" > > > >In my view, the hope of developing a sustainable global energy system is >ESSENTIAL and NECESSARY but very far from SUFFICIENT >to the hope of achieving global sustainability on earth. Because we have >some unique points of leverage and capability related to that >goal, it is reasonable for us to spend a disproportionately large share of >our time on that goal (among others), relative to other goals -- >like water, food, population, war-and-peace and education -- which are >equally critical, which merit our very part-time support, but which we cannot >influence quite as much, at the present time. "We" meaning me and my >friend at this moment. > >No matter what taxes and quotas and laws and new age prayers to Gaia we >can try to invoke... it seems pretty clear that we could >not achieve a globally sustainably energy system without either radical >changes in technology or throwing billions of people into poverty >or starvation... and I prefer the former. > >Assuming we do not accept the billions-more-in-poverty scenarios, a >sustainable global energy system must include a web of technologies which >allows one to meet (at least) four (principal) constraints simultaneously: > >(1) An increase in the available supply of energy AS SUCH, from unlimited >sources, without a big increase in price; > >(2) An increase in the supply of TRANSPORTATION FUEL, also from unlimited >sources, without a big increase in price per mile; > >(3) Zero net CO2 emission for it all; > >(4) The ability to do all this without depending on the use of nuclear >power plants in the developing world. (I would not >use the word "sustainable" to describe what would happen if the >availability of nuclear materials and technology were to be >multiplied a thousand-fold beyond what the creaky status quo already looks >like in the developing world.) > >It is simply not proven that these constraints can ever be met -- but >there are a number of promising options for high-risk >high-potential research, and there is a clear need for the world to >maximize all truly plausible options along these lines. >There is a huge amount of rhetoric and short-term research whose funders >talk about sustainability... but precious little on >those options which address the hope of really ACHIEVING the four goals. >(Some people call it "making progress" to spend >billions on tweaking gasoline-burning internal combustion engines... but >1,000 years of that would not get us to the ultimate >point we need to aim for. When governments mandate or even just >incentivize that sort of thing, they actually reduce >our chances of making it in the long term, because they distract attention >from tehe more radical things we need to be doing.) > >Anyway... no need for me to go on TO[O] long on this... someone needs to >really attend to the technical nitty-gritty of these >issues... someone must "take out THAT trash".... ESPECIALLY BECAUSE there >has been precious little serious substantive support >for what really needs to be done. And a lot of that requires dialogue with >the folks who are critical to developing that >technology. > > >Best of luck, > > Paul W. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 19 12:51:30 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9606A56FF9; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:51:29 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail7.wlv.netzero.net (mail7.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.57]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E049356FF3 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:51:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23024 invoked from network); 19 Sep 2002 20:09:38 -0000 Received: from dsc01.oav-ca-2.rasserver.net (HELO netzero.net) (204.30.192.125) by mail7.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 19 Sep 2002 20:09:38 -0000 Message-ID: <3D8A2F60.92591510@netzero.net> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:11:12 -0700 From: "John J. Deneen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-{C-UDP; EBM-SONY1} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Four Goals (was)Fwd: [issues] reply to Tony's comment References: <4.2.2.20020919073602.022259e0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org A software tool called Reason!Able helps expands the brain's capacity to cope with complex arguments. E.G., For the case of reducing our use of fossil fuels, try using Reason!Able - an introductory PowerPoint presentation. Download the zip file (500k) < http://www.goreason.com/presentations/Using_ReasonAble.zip > Also, here's some interesting papers relative to ba-unrev-talk and interest in argument mapping: 1) What is Argument Mapping? < http://www.austhink.org/argumentmapping/ > What is reasoning and argumentation? Reasoning and argumentation are closely related. Reasoning is a cognitive activity, argumentation is reasoning, exercised in a social context. 3) Argument Mapping with Reason!Able van Gelder, T. J. (forthcoming). Argument Mapping with Reason!Able. The American Philosophical Association Newsletter on Philosophy and Computers "[I]t is also important to realise that these are early days in the development of computer-supported argument mapping. Back in 1962, Douglas Englebart imagined and predicted computer-supported argument mapping as a means of augmenting human intellect (Engelbart, 1962). Four decades later, his vision is at last starting to be realised. Reason!Able (and other packages available today) are like Model T Fords compared with the automobiles of today, let alone the “maglevs”5 of the future. I brashly predict that once the technology becomes sufficiently advanced, those who deal with complex arguments for a living will switch to the new methods just as the accounting profession has switched entirely to computer packages in preference to the old system of ledgers and manual entries and calculations." 3) Enhancing Deliberation Through Computer Supported Argument Mapping van Gelder, T. J. (forthcoming). Enhancing Deliberation Through Computer-Supported Argument Mapping. In P. Kirschner & S. Buckingham Shum & C. Carr (Eds.), Visualizing Argumentation: Software Tools for Collaborative and Educational Sense-Making. London: Springer-Verlag. Conclusion "Deliberation is the primary means by which we strive for, and sometimes actually find, the truth on important, complex issues. Anything which enhances deliberation thereby enhances our ability to know the truth. Argument mapping can substantially enhance deliberation, relative to traditional practices; indeed, I know of no other approach which can make a comparable difference. The emergence of new, dedicated argument-mapping support tools will, I believe, enable argument mapping to become widespread practice in schools, and in the workplace, in domains as various as policy making, research, politics, the law, and dispute resolution. If all this is correct, computer-supported argument mapping ought, in the long run, contribute substantially to human well-being. In this sense, our project is a extension of the Enlightenment vision of progress through the refinement and application of Reason." More info < http://www.philosophy.unimelb.edu.au/reason/ > Other Software Tools a) ARAUCARIA "Araucaria is a software tool (written in Java) for analysing arguments. It aids a user in reconstructing and diagramming an argument using a simple point-and-click interface. The software also supports argumentation schemes, and provides a user-customisable set of schemes with which to analyse arguments. Once arguments have been analysed they can be saved in a portable format called "XML". XML is a flexible language which can easily be used to generate web pages and data with which to populate a database." The software is free (it is released under the GNU General Public License) and version 1.0 is now available for download. < http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/staff/creed/araucaria/download.html > < http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/staff/creed/araucaria/index.html > b) ATHENA The Athena software (written in Java) is designed to support analysis and production of reasoning and argumentation by students in higher education at undergraduate and postgraduate levels. ATHENA ISSA 2002.zip (350kB) < http://www.athenasoft.org/sub/documents/ATHENA%20ISSA%202002.zip > This is a presentation of the design ideas behind Athena software and education. A comparison with a similar package (ReasonAble) is provided. The Athena 2.0 computer program may be used freely for non-commercial purposes. < http://www.athenasoft.org/sub/software.htm > The project has been sponsored by The Council for the Renewal of Higher Education, The National Agency for Higher Education, Stockholm, Sweden < http://www.athenasoft.org/ > groups.yahoo.com/group/argumap http://www.goreason.com c) GeNIe (Graphical Network Interface) and SMILE (Structural Modeling, Inference, and Learning Engine) Directed to the high- end of the user spectrum is the program Genie, produced at Carnegie- Mellon University, Pittsburgh. Genie enables the user to draw influence diagrams and calculate conditional probabilities and expected utilities on the basis of probabilities and utilities, entered by an expert user. < http://www2.sis.pitt.edu/~genie/about_genie.html > The three levels of software differ with respect to how much of calculation they employ. At a low level, Belvedere contains no calculations. Reason! Able and Athena, at a middle level, contain some assignments of numbers and, in Athena, some capacities for helping the user to use certain rules- of thumb for filtering away his worst arguments. Genie, finally, contains advanced theory-based capacities for calculations, based on expected utility and Bayesian probabilities. Jack Park wrote: > Paul Werbos, responding to some comments by Tony Judge on the Issues list, > lists 4 goals, aiming towards which, in his opinion, are crucial to the > future. > > >From: "Paul J. Werbos" > > > > > > > >In my view, the hope of developing a sustainable global energy system is > >ESSENTIAL and NECESSARY but very far from SUFFICIENT > >to the hope of achieving global sustainability on earth. Because we have > >some unique points of leverage and capability related to that > >goal, it is reasonable for us to spend a disproportionately large share of > >our time on that goal (among others), relative to other goals -- > >like water, food, population, war-and-peace and education -- which are > >equally critical, which merit our very part-time support, but which we cannot > >influence quite as much, at the present time. "We" meaning me and my > >friend at this moment. > > > >No matter what taxes and quotas and laws and new age prayers to Gaia we > >can try to invoke... it seems pretty clear that we could > >not achieve a globally sustainably energy system without either radical > >changes in technology or throwing billions of people into poverty > >or starvation... and I prefer the former. > > > >Assuming we do not accept the billions-more-in-poverty scenarios, a > >sustainable global energy system must include a web of technologies which > >allows one to meet (at least) four (principal) constraints simultaneously: > > > >(1) An increase in the available supply of energy AS SUCH, from unlimited > >sources, without a big increase in price; > > > >(2) An increase in the supply of TRANSPORTATION FUEL, also from unlimited > >sources, without a big increase in price per mile; > > > >(3) Zero net CO2 emission for it all; > > > >(4) The ability to do all this without depending on the use of nuclear > >power plants in the developing world. (I would not > >use the word "sustainable" to describe what would happen if the > >availability of nuclear materials and technology were to be > >multiplied a thousand-fold beyond what the creaky status quo already looks > >like in the developing world.) > > > >It is simply not proven that these constraints can ever be met -- but > >there are a number of promising options for high-risk > >high-potential research, and there is a clear need for the world to > >maximize all truly plausible options along these lines. > >There is a huge amount of rhetoric and short-term research whose funders > >talk about sustainability... but precious little on > >those options which address the hope of really ACHIEVING the four goals. > >(Some people call it "making progress" to spend > >billions on tweaking gasoline-burning internal combustion engines... but > >1,000 years of that would not get us to the ultimate > >point we need to aim for. When governments mandate or even just > >incentivize that sort of thing, they actually reduce > >our chances of making it in the long term, because they distract attention > >from tehe more radical things we need to be doing.) > > > >Anyway... no need for me to go on TO[O] long on this... someone needs to > >really attend to the technical nitty-gritty of these > >issues... someone must "take out THAT trash".... ESPECIALLY BECAUSE there > >has been precious little serious substantive support > >for what really needs to be done. And a lot of that requires dialogue with > >the folks who are critical to developing that > >technology. > > > > > >Best of luck, > > > > Paul W. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. > Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. > > http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 19 13:32:36 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 79FFB56FF9; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 151D556FF3 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jacklaptop ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020919205046.BKAM10808.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@jacklaptop> for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 20:50:46 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020919134714.0222d660@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:47:48 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: CivicNet02 online forum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: Cliff Figallo > >I think most of you would be interested in an online forum that is going on >right now. It's called CivicNet and it is about the use of electronic media >and its use for civic discourse and knowledge exchange. In some cases the >desired outcome is education, in others its policy-making or resolution of >disputed issues. > >You can read more about it and register (costs $25) at this url: [$35] > >http://www.civicnet02.net/ > >Cheers, >Cliff --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 19 14:17:25 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EF51556FF9; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:17:24 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E39E56FF3 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14584 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8JLZSi01692 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D8A4364.32230DAF@sun.com> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:36:36 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001401c25f3e$928695e0$407287d9@vaio> <3D890463.FDA8DC7B@sun.com> <002e01c26005$79c5bbe0$9ee8193e@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Peter Jones wrote (offlist): > > I just can't understand how it is that so much immorality > has been sanctioned by society. > I think you mean "corporate immorality", as opposed to "that infernal music" and such, which is always the next generation's music. (I've been on both sides of that one, now. Never thought it would happen, either.) As for corporate immorality, I think it has a lot to do with why people *will* push a button that causes someone else pain, when there is someone standing there in a lab coat telling them to do it. Then there is the "stanford jail", where they did an experiment that was supposed to last a month, but ended it after less than a week because all of participants (including the experimenters) were shocked at how quickly they fell into their roles, and how they were doing things they *never* would have deemed justifiable, had they not been immersed in the experience. In other words, we are looking at the herd instinct at work. Oddly enough, it is the very denial of the herd instinct in our children that I suspect leads to the compelling power of the herd instinct in later life. I favor lifestyle choices that reflect our needs as primates -- especially when it comes to raising kids. So I love the books that are coming out these days about letting your kids sleep in the same bed with you, about holding kids close a lot of the time, and taking your baby home immediately after delivery, instead of having them lying around in those stupid hospital cribs. One of things I like about it, in addition to the short term happiness it provides infants (with no long term cost, as far as anyone can tell), is a story I heard from someone who knew a south sea islander. I was told that the person was as totally confident and secure as anyone *could* be. Much later, I met a Maori "ski warrior", and I felt the same thing from him -- confident and at home, anywhere, under any circumstances. In the meantime, I had read a bit about south sea islands culture -- a strong sense of community, to the point that a child who needed anything walked up to the nearest door, and whoever was inside took care of them. That kind of upbringing builds a sense of belonging. Sydney Poitier had that kind of upbringing, and he mentioned on a talk show (the source of modern wisdom) that he carried firewood as a child. Without that wood, there would be no cooking, and no supper. So from early childhood, his life had *meaning*. He did important work that was part of making a life in their village. My personal belief is that this kind of background builds the strength to stand up and walk out of such experiments. I know I have that strength, because I've participated in greater rebellions. Oddly enough, I developed it the hard way -- in completely opposite fashion from the way I would *like* to see kids raised. I had little closeness in my life, little opportunity to spend time with other kids (with a couple of exceptions), and zero discretionary capital for fashionable clothing or anything with which to make an impression -- so I learned to be a totally independent thinker. It holds me back in a lot of ways. Learning to be diplomatic has been difficult, and being a "team player" in a business sense has been close to impossible. When things are stupid I tend to say so -- repeatedly. So I can tell you that "making waves" is in general no path to corporate advancement! For all the world celebrates loners, the world is simply not structured to reward them. In a business setting, then, folks willing to conform rise to the top, and make decisions. Independent thinkers, creative as we may be, don't. So the herd instinct may very well be responsible for the worst we see in corporations. The two ways to attack that problem, as far as I can see, are to devalue the corporation, making it incindental to one's life, rather than a requirement for it, and to nurture children in a way creates the inner security necessary to think and act independently, while at the same creating the capacity to live and work with others closely. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 19 14:27:42 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 787EA56FF9; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 139E556FF3 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:27:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24320 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 15:45:48 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8JLjli03920 for ; Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:45:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D8A45D0.98F45876@sun.com> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 14:46:56 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Four Goals (was)Fwd: [issues] reply to Tony's comment References: <4.2.2.20020919073602.022259e0@thinkalong.com> <3D8A2F60.92591510@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by kathmandu.sun.com id PAA24320 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Good posts, John. I especially like that power point presentation. Well done. I'll look at a couple of the papers tonight. "John J. Deneen" wrote: >=20 > A software tool called Reason!Able helps expands the brain's capacity t= o cope with > complex arguments. >=20 > E.G., For the case of reducing our use of fossil fuels, try using Reaso= n!Able - an > introductory PowerPoint presentation. Download the zip file (500k) > < http://www.goreason.com/presentations/Using_ReasonAble.zip > >=20 > Also, here's some interesting papers relative to ba-unrev-talk and inte= rest in > argument mapping: >=20 > 1) What is Argument Mapping? > < http://www.austhink.org/argumentmapping/ > >=20 > What is reasoning and argumentation? > Reasoning and argumentation are closely related. Reasoning is a cogniti= ve > activity, argumentation is reasoning, exercised in a social context. >=20 > 3) Argument Mapping with Reason!Able >=20 > van Gelder, T. J. (forthcoming). Argument Mapping with Reason!Able. The= American > Philosophical Association Newsletter on Philosophy and Computers >=20 > "[I]t is also important to realise that these are early days in the dev= elopment of > computer-supported argument mapping. Back in 1962, Douglas Englebart im= agined and > predicted computer-supported argument mapping as a means of augmenting = human > intellect (Engelbart, > 1962). Four decades later, his vision is at last starting to be realise= d. > Reason!Able (and other packages available today) are like Model T Fords= compared > with the automobiles of today, let alone the =93maglevs=945 of the futu= re. I brashly > predict that once the technology becomes sufficiently advanced, those w= ho deal > with complex arguments for a living will switch to the new methods just= as the > accounting profession has switched entirely to computer packages in pre= ference to > the old system of ledgers and manual entries and calculations." >=20 > 3) Enhancing Deliberation Through Computer Supported Argument Mapping >=20 > van Gelder, T. J. (forthcoming). Enhancing Deliberation Through Compute= r-Supported > Argument Mapping. In P. Kirschner & S. Buckingham Shum & C. Carr (Eds.)= , > Visualizing Argumentation: Software Tools for Collaborative and Educati= onal > Sense-Making. London: Springer-Verlag. >=20 > Conclusion > "Deliberation is the primary means by which we strive for, and sometime= s actually > find, the truth on important, complex issues. Anything which enhances d= eliberation > thereby enhances our ability to know the truth. Argument mapping can su= bstantially > enhance deliberation, relative to traditional practices; indeed, I know= of no > other approach which can make a comparable difference. The emergence of= new, > dedicated argument-mapping support tools will, I believe, enable argume= nt mapping > to become widespread practice in schools, and in the workplace, in doma= ins as > various as policy making, research, politics, the law, and dispute reso= lution. If > all this is correct, computer-supported argument mapping ought, in the = long run, > contribute substantially to human well-being. In this sense, our projec= t is a > extension of the Enlightenment vision of progress through the refinemen= t and > application of Reason." >=20 > More info > < http://www.philosophy.unimelb.edu.au/reason/ > >=20 > Other Software Tools >=20 > a) ARAUCARIA > "Araucaria is a software tool (written in Java) for analysing arguments= . It aids a > user in reconstructing and diagramming an argument using a simple point= -and-click > interface. The software also supports argumentation schemes, and provid= es a > user-customisable set of schemes with which to analyse arguments. >=20 > Once arguments have been analysed they can be saved in a portable forma= t called > "XML". XML is a flexible language which can easily be used to generate = web pages > and data with which to populate a database." >=20 > The software is free (it is released under the GNU General Public Licen= se) and > version 1.0 is now available for download. < > http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/staff/creed/araucaria/download.html > > < http://www.computing.dundee.ac.uk/staff/creed/araucaria/index.html > >=20 > b) ATHENA > The Athena software (written in Java) is designed to support analysis a= nd > production of reasoning and argumentation by students in higher educati= on at > undergraduate and postgraduate levels. >=20 > ATHENA ISSA 2002.zip (350kB) > < http://www.athenasoft.org/sub/documents/ATHENA%20ISSA%202002.zip > >=20 > This is a presentation of the design ideas behind Athena software and e= ducation. A > comparison with a similar package (ReasonAble) is provided. >=20 > The Athena 2.0 computer program may be used freely for non-commercial p= urposes. > < http://www.athenasoft.org/sub/software.htm > >=20 > The project has been sponsored by The Council for the Renewal of Higher= Education, > The National Agency for Higher Education, Stockholm, Sweden > < http://www.athenasoft.org/ > >=20 > groups.yahoo.com/group/argumap > http://www.goreason.com >=20 > c) GeNIe (Graphical Network Interface) and SMILE (Structural Modeling, = Inference, > and Learning Engine) >=20 > Directed to the high- end of the user spectrum is the program Genie, pr= oduced at > Carnegie- Mellon University, Pittsburgh. Genie enables the user to draw= influence > diagrams and calculate conditional probabilities and expected utilities= on the > basis of probabilities and utilities, entered by an expert user. > < http://www2.sis.pitt.edu/~genie/about_genie.html > >=20 > The three levels of software differ with respect to how much of calcula= tion they > employ. At a low level, Belvedere contains no calculations. Reason! Abl= e and > Athena, at a middle level, contain some assignments of numbers and, in = Athena, > some capacities for helping the user to use certain rules- of thumb for= filtering > away his worst arguments. Genie, finally, contains advanced theory-base= d > capacities for calculations, based on expected utility and Bayesian pro= babilities. >=20 > Jack Park wrote: >=20 > > Paul Werbos, responding to some comments by Tony Judge on the Issues = list, > > lists 4 goals, aiming towards which, in his opinion, are crucial to = the > > future. > > > > >From: "Paul J. Werbos" > > > > > > > > > > > >In my view, the hope of developing a sustainable global energy syste= m is > > >ESSENTIAL and NECESSARY but very far from SUFFICIENT > > >to the hope of achieving global sustainability on earth. Because we = have > > >some unique points of leverage and capability related to that > > >goal, it is reasonable for us to spend a disproportionately large sh= are of > > >our time on that goal (among others), relative to other goals -- > > >like water, food, population, war-and-peace and education -- which a= re > > >equally critical, which merit our very part-time support, but which = we cannot > > >influence quite as much, at the present time. "We" meaning me and my > > >friend at this moment. > > > > > >No matter what taxes and quotas and laws and new age prayers to Gaia= we > > >can try to invoke... it seems pretty clear that we could > > >not achieve a globally sustainably energy system without either radi= cal > > >changes in technology or throwing billions of people into poverty > > >or starvation... and I prefer the former. > > > > > >Assuming we do not accept the billions-more-in-poverty scenarios, a > > >sustainable global energy system must include a web of technologies = which > > >allows one to meet (at least) four (principal) constraints simultane= ously: > > > > > >(1) An increase in the available supply of energy AS SUCH, from unli= mited > > >sources, without a big increase in price; > > > > > >(2) An increase in the supply of TRANSPORTATION FUEL, also from unli= mited > > >sources, without a big increase in price per mile; > > > > > >(3) Zero net CO2 emission for it all; > > > > > >(4) The ability to do all this without depending on the use of nucle= ar > > >power plants in the developing world. (I would not > > >use the word "sustainable" to describe what would happen if the > > >availability of nuclear materials and technology were to be > > >multiplied a thousand-fold beyond what the creaky status quo already= looks > > >like in the developing world.) > > > > > >It is simply not proven that these constraints can ever be met -- bu= t > > >there are a number of promising options for high-risk > > >high-potential research, and there is a clear need for the world to > > >maximize all truly plausible options along these lines. > > >There is a huge amount of rhetoric and short-term research whose fun= ders > > >talk about sustainability... but precious little on > > >those options which address the hope of really ACHIEVING the four go= als. > > >(Some people call it "making progress" to spend > > >billions on tweaking gasoline-burning internal combustion engines...= but > > >1,000 years of that would not get us to the ultimate > > >point we need to aim for. When governments mandate or even just > > >incentivize that sort of thing, they actually reduce > > >our chances of making it in the long term, because they distract att= ention > > >from tehe more radical things we need to be doing.) > > > > > >Anyway... no need for me to go on TO[O] long on this... someone need= s to > > >really attend to the technical nitty-gritty of these > > >issues... someone must "take out THAT trash".... ESPECIALLY BECAUSE = there > > >has been precious little serious substantive support > > >for what really needs to be done. And a lot of that requires dialogu= e with > > >the folks who are critical to developing that > > >technology. > > > > > > > > >Best of luck, > > > > > > Paul W. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= ------ > > XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. > > Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. > > > > http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog >=20 > ------------------------------------------- > Introducing NetZero Long Distance > Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! > Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 07:26:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5A21556FF7; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.71]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F71456FF3 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.106]) by tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020920144502.VBLX3718.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:45:02 -0400 Message-ID: <3D8B3381.43EC2DB4@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:41:05 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I haven't been able to follow some of the recent threads, but I do believe the following is elevant: http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1337125 This is The Economist's review of Steven Pinker's latest, "The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature" and the insights it offers may do much to bring our understanding of ourselves as human beings closer to the frontiers of scientific thinking. I shall be obtaining a copy to read it myself - leaving me even less time - because I sense that it may be exceedingly relevant to such matters of human community as democracy, etc. Henry Henry Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > Nietzsche's version of karma (the eternal recurrence) is delightfully non > religious. > > If we reincarnated based on past performance that would perhaps make us > behave well, if we believed it, if we behaved rationally, but if we knew > this was our one and only life? If we knew every moment was unrepeatable? > How well ought we to behave then? > > -g > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 6:50 PM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. > > V.S.Uren@open.ac.uk wrote: > > > > Re: I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a > > rationalization > > > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > > > a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > > > as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > > > > This sounds like a notion I call "practical karma"... > > > Yes. A belief in reincarnation is a *powerful* motivation for doing > good. I look at it this way: > > It's not that I'm going to come back as a llama or an earthworm, > or something. > > It's not even that I'm going to come back as some high-born or > low-born person. > > It's that I'm going to come back to THIS world -- and I'm going > to have live in the garden of eden (or cesspool) I create. > > Talk about incentive to take care of the environment... > > But those are quasi-religious notions. At the very least, they > depend on a particular belief system. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 07:39:16 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 423F356FF8; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.189]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8667656FF7 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 07:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.106]) by tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020920145728.EJNZ21425.tomts26-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:57:28 -0400 Message-ID: <3D8B366B.69F243EB@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 10:53:31 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] The Economist's Technological Quarterly Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I strongly recommend obtaining a copy of The Economist for its technological quarterly. It provides good insights in IBM's autonomous computing and relevant technologies elsewhere; in Bill Joy's work, especially at Sun Microsystems. Then there is a report on a new wireless scheme. All in all, an insight into where things are headed. Furthermore, there are also reports on the burning issues of movies and music on the Internet as well as a nice article about ink jets. http://www.economist.com/science/tq/ I believe this to be the kind of reading that adds a lot of up-to-date context to our thinking. Henry From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 11:34:08 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8EBBA56FF8; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.177]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 81BB056FF7 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1217.grommet.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.174.193] helo=vaio) by cmailg7.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17sSsn-0001AD-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:52:10 +0100 Message-ID: <004e01c260d6$75770f40$ebc2193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <3D8B3381.43EC2DB4@sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 19:49:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I read of a review of this in the Sunday Times (UK). It looks like it will be seen as a very important work. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry K van Eyken" To: Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. > I haven't been able to follow some of the recent threads, but I do believe > the following is elevant: > > http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1337125 > > This is The Economist's review of Steven Pinker's latest, "The Blank Slate: > The Modern Denial of Human Nature" > > and the insights it offers may do much to bring our understanding of > ourselves as human beings closer to the frontiers of scientific thinking. > > I shall be obtaining a copy to read it myself - leaving me even less time - > because I sense that it may be exceedingly relevant to such matters of human > community as democracy, etc. > > Henry > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > > > Nietzsche's version of karma (the eternal recurrence) is delightfully non > > religious. > > > > If we reincarnated based on past performance that would perhaps make us > > behave well, if we believed it, if we behaved rationally, but if we knew > > this was our one and only life? If we knew every moment was unrepeatable? > > How well ought we to behave then? > > > > -g > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong > > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 6:50 PM > > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. > > > > V.S.Uren@open.ac.uk wrote: > > > > > > Re: I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a > > > rationalization > > > > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > > > > a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > > > > as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > > > > > > This sounds like a notion I call "practical karma"... > > > > > Yes. A belief in reincarnation is a *powerful* motivation for doing > > good. I look at it this way: > > > > It's not that I'm going to come back as a llama or an earthworm, > > or something. > > > > It's not even that I'm going to come back as some high-born or > > low-born person. > > > > It's that I'm going to come back to THIS world -- and I'm going > > to have live in the garden of eden (or cesspool) I create. > > > > Talk about incentive to take care of the environment... > > > > But those are quasi-religious notions. At the very least, they > > depend on a particular belief system. > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 11:52:06 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1951156FF8; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.171]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3AFC556FF7 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1217.grommet.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.174.193] helo=vaio) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17sTAI-00069E-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:10:11 +0100 Message-ID: <006901c260d8$fb07f3c0$ebc2193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001401c25f3e$928695e0$407287d9@vaio> <3D890463.FDA8DC7B@sun.com> <002e01c26005$79c5bbe0$9ee8193e@vaio> <3D8A4364.32230DAF@sun.com> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:07:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I did intend 'corporate morality'. Certainly the herd instinct theory does seem to explain matters in that area, but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring into being stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the majority do really prevail in such societies. Does this mean that the majority actually enjoy inflicting this sort of psychological torture? That it is some sort of mass habit? Scary. For those wondering about the background to this discussion, we were discussing the content of www.faceintel.com -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Armstrong" To: "ba-unrev-talk" Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:36 PM Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > Peter Jones wrote (offlist): > > > > I just can't understand how it is that so much immorality > > has been sanctioned by society. > > > I think you mean "corporate immorality", as opposed to "that > infernal music" and such, which is always the next generation's > music. (I've been on both sides of that one, now. Never thought > it would happen, either.) > > As for corporate immorality, I think it has a lot to do with > why people *will* push a button that causes someone else > pain, when there is someone standing there in a lab coat > telling them to do it. > > Then there is the "stanford jail", where they did an experiment > that was supposed to last a month, but ended it after less > than a week because all of participants (including the > experimenters) were shocked at how quickly they fell into > their roles, and how they were doing things they *never* > would have deemed justifiable, had they not been immersed in > the experience. > > In other words, we are looking at the herd instinct at work. > > Oddly enough, it is the very denial of the herd instinct in > our children that I suspect leads to the compelling power of > the herd instinct in later life. > > I favor lifestyle choices that reflect our needs as primates > -- especially when it comes to raising kids. So I love the > books that are coming out these days about letting your kids > sleep in the same bed with you, about holding kids close a > lot of the time, and taking your baby home immediately after > delivery, instead of having them lying around in those stupid > hospital cribs. > > One of things I like about it, in addition to the short term > happiness it provides infants (with no long term cost, as far > as anyone can tell), is a story I heard from someone who knew > a south sea islander. I was told that the person was as totally > confident and secure as anyone *could* be. > > Much later, I met a Maori "ski warrior", and I felt the same > thing from him -- confident and at home, anywhere, under any > circumstances. > > In the meantime, I had read a bit about south sea islands > culture -- a strong sense of community, to the point that a > child who needed anything walked up to the nearest door, and > whoever was inside took care of them. > > That kind of upbringing builds a sense of belonging. > > Sydney Poitier had that kind of upbringing, and he mentioned > on a talk show (the source of modern wisdom) that he carried > firewood as a child. Without that wood, there would be no > cooking, and no supper. So from early childhood, his life had > *meaning*. He did important work that was part of making a > life in their village. > > My personal belief is that this kind of background builds the > strength to stand up and walk out of such experiments. I know > I have that strength, because I've participated in greater > rebellions. > > Oddly enough, I developed it the hard way -- in completely > opposite fashion from the way I would *like* to see kids raised. > I had little closeness in my life, little opportunity to spend > time with other kids (with a couple of exceptions), and zero > discretionary capital for fashionable clothing or anything with > which to make an impression -- so I learned to be a totally > independent thinker. It holds me back in a lot of ways. Learning > to be diplomatic has been difficult, and being a "team player" in > a business sense has been close to impossible. When things are > stupid I tend to say so -- repeatedly. > > So I can tell you that "making waves" is in general no > path to corporate advancement! For all the world celebrates > loners, the world is simply not structured to reward them. > > In a business setting, then, folks willing to conform rise to > the top, and make decisions. Independent thinkers, creative as > we may be, don't. So the herd instinct may very well be > responsible for the worst we see in corporations. > > The two ways to attack that problem, as far as I can see, are > to devalue the corporation, making it incindental to one's life, > rather than a requirement for it, and to nurture children in a > way creates the inner security necessary to think and act > independently, while at the same creating the capacity to live > and work with others closely. > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 12:13:49 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id CC79156FF8; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:13:48 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A106656FF7 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-387.caterpie.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.58.131] helo=vaio) by cmailm3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17sTVG-00072X-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:31:51 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c260dc$023cb600$833a87d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001401c25f3e$928695e0$407287d9@vaio> <3D890463.FDA8DC7B@sun.com> <002e01c26005$79c5bbe0$9ee8193e@vaio> <3D8A4364.32230DAF@sun.com> <006901c260d8$fb07f3c0$ebc2193e@vaio> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 20:29:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wow. That has to be the worst piece of reasoning I've ever published. I'll try again later. "I cite having a bad headache by way of mitigation, your honour." -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Jones" To: Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:07 PM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > I did intend 'corporate morality'. > Certainly the herd instinct theory does seem to explain matters in that area, > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring into being > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the majority do > really prevail in such societies. Does this mean that the majority actually > enjoy inflicting this sort of psychological torture? > That it is some sort of mass habit? > Scary. > > For those wondering about the background to this discussion, we were discussing > the content of www.faceintel.com > > -- > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Armstrong" > To: "ba-unrev-talk" > Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:36 PM > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > > Peter Jones wrote (offlist): > > > > > > I just can't understand how it is that so much immorality > > > has been sanctioned by society. > > > > > I think you mean "corporate immorality", as opposed to "that > > infernal music" and such, which is always the next generation's > > music. (I've been on both sides of that one, now. Never thought > > it would happen, either.) > > > > As for corporate immorality, I think it has a lot to do with > > why people *will* push a button that causes someone else > > pain, when there is someone standing there in a lab coat > > telling them to do it. > > > > Then there is the "stanford jail", where they did an experiment > > that was supposed to last a month, but ended it after less > > than a week because all of participants (including the > > experimenters) were shocked at how quickly they fell into > > their roles, and how they were doing things they *never* > > would have deemed justifiable, had they not been immersed in > > the experience. > > > > In other words, we are looking at the herd instinct at work. > > > > Oddly enough, it is the very denial of the herd instinct in > > our children that I suspect leads to the compelling power of > > the herd instinct in later life. > > > > I favor lifestyle choices that reflect our needs as primates > > -- especially when it comes to raising kids. So I love the > > books that are coming out these days about letting your kids > > sleep in the same bed with you, about holding kids close a > > lot of the time, and taking your baby home immediately after > > delivery, instead of having them lying around in those stupid > > hospital cribs. > > > > One of things I like about it, in addition to the short term > > happiness it provides infants (with no long term cost, as far > > as anyone can tell), is a story I heard from someone who knew > > a south sea islander. I was told that the person was as totally > > confident and secure as anyone *could* be. > > > > Much later, I met a Maori "ski warrior", and I felt the same > > thing from him -- confident and at home, anywhere, under any > > circumstances. > > > > In the meantime, I had read a bit about south sea islands > > culture -- a strong sense of community, to the point that a > > child who needed anything walked up to the nearest door, and > > whoever was inside took care of them. > > > > That kind of upbringing builds a sense of belonging. > > > > Sydney Poitier had that kind of upbringing, and he mentioned > > on a talk show (the source of modern wisdom) that he carried > > firewood as a child. Without that wood, there would be no > > cooking, and no supper. So from early childhood, his life had > > *meaning*. He did important work that was part of making a > > life in their village. > > > > My personal belief is that this kind of background builds the > > strength to stand up and walk out of such experiments. I know > > I have that strength, because I've participated in greater > > rebellions. > > > > Oddly enough, I developed it the hard way -- in completely > > opposite fashion from the way I would *like* to see kids raised. > > I had little closeness in my life, little opportunity to spend > > time with other kids (with a couple of exceptions), and zero > > discretionary capital for fashionable clothing or anything with > > which to make an impression -- so I learned to be a totally > > independent thinker. It holds me back in a lot of ways. Learning > > to be diplomatic has been difficult, and being a "team player" in > > a business sense has been close to impossible. When things are > > stupid I tend to say so -- repeatedly. > > > > So I can tell you that "making waves" is in general no > > path to corporate advancement! For all the world celebrates > > loners, the world is simply not structured to reward them. > > > > In a business setting, then, folks willing to conform rise to > > the top, and make decisions. Independent thinkers, creative as > > we may be, don't. So the herd instinct may very well be > > responsible for the worst we see in corporations. > > > > The two ways to attack that problem, as far as I can see, are > > to devalue the corporation, making it incindental to one's life, > > rather than a requirement for it, and to nurture children in a > > way creates the inner security necessary to think and act > > independently, while at the same creating the capacity to live > > and work with others closely. > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 12:40:26 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 86B9056FF8; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1FD4256FF7 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA16550 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8KJwWi05102 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D8B7E2E.EC84E1CC@sun.com> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 12:59:42 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001401c25f3e$928695e0$407287d9@vaio> <3D890463.FDA8DC7B@sun.com> <002e01c26005$79c5bbe0$9ee8193e@vaio> <3D8A4364.32230DAF@sun.com> <006901c260d8$fb07f3c0$ebc2193e@vaio> <000701c260dc$023cb600$833a87d9@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org The reasoning off only with respect to "intent". The majority doesn't intend the consequences, but getting them seems to be built into the system. This whole line of thought has led to an essay titled "what's wrong with capitalism?" It plunged into my brain this morning. I'll try to get something on paper soon. But the question you ask raises a corrolary issue, "what's wrong with democracy?" (The titles are intended to be read ambiguously, as in "So what's wrong with a little capitalism?" (it's a good thing) in addition to "how do we fix this?".) Peter Jones wrote: > > Wow. That has to be the worst piece of reasoning I've ever published. > I'll try again later. > > "I cite having a bad headache by way of mitigation, your honour." > > -- > Peter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Jones" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:07 PM > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > I did intend 'corporate morality'. > > Certainly the herd instinct theory does seem to explain matters in that area, > > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring into being > > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the majority do > > really prevail in such societies. Does this mean that the majority actually > > enjoy inflicting this sort of psychological torture? > > That it is some sort of mass habit? > > Scary. > > > > For those wondering about the background to this discussion, we were > discussing > > the content of www.faceintel.com From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 13:06:15 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5605756FF8; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.3]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9A30B56FF7 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 13:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.152]) by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020920202425.TCQD12486.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:24:25 -0400 Message-ID: <3D8B830C.BC71D62B@sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:20:28 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.79 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. References: <3D8B3381.43EC2DB4@sympatico.ca> <004e01c260d6$75770f40$ebc2193e@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Yes, Peter. It isn't in the stores yet, but it looks like it will make a nice trilogy with "Guns, Germs and Steel" and "The Global Brain." Henry Peter Jones wrote: > I read of a review of this in the Sunday Times (UK). > It looks like it will be seen as a very important work. > > -- > Peter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Henry K van Eyken" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 3:41 PM > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. > > > I haven't been able to follow some of the recent threads, but I do believe > > the following is elevant: > > > > http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1337125 > > > > This is The Economist's review of Steven Pinker's latest, "The Blank Slate: > > The Modern Denial of Human Nature" > > > > and the insights it offers may do much to bring our understanding of > > ourselves as human beings closer to the frontiers of scientific thinking. > > > > I shall be obtaining a copy to read it myself - leaving me even less time - > > because I sense that it may be exceedingly relevant to such matters of human > > community as democracy, etc. > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > > > > > Nietzsche's version of karma (the eternal recurrence) is delightfully non > > > religious. > > > > > > If we reincarnated based on past performance that would perhaps make us > > > behave well, if we believed it, if we behaved rationally, but if we knew > > > this was our one and only life? If we knew every moment was unrepeatable? > > > How well ought we to behave then? > > > > > > -g > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > > > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 6:50 PM > > > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. > > > > > > V.S.Uren@open.ac.uk wrote: > > > > > > > > Re: I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a > > > > rationalization > > > > > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > > > > > a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > > > > > as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > > > > > > > > This sounds like a notion I call "practical karma"... > > > > > > > Yes. A belief in reincarnation is a *powerful* motivation for doing > > > good. I look at it this way: > > > > > > It's not that I'm going to come back as a llama or an earthworm, > > > or something. > > > > > > It's not even that I'm going to come back as some high-born or > > > low-born person. > > > > > > It's that I'm going to come back to THIS world -- and I'm going > > > to have live in the garden of eden (or cesspool) I create. > > > > > > Talk about incentive to take care of the environment... > > > > > > But those are quasi-religious notions. At the very least, they > > > depend on a particular belief system. > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 15:05:28 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A70ED56FF8; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DB01756FF7 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1204.charizard.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.73.180] helo=vaio) by cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17sWBS-000147-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:23:34 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c260f3$ff1857a0$b44987d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001401c25f3e$928695e0$407287d9@vaio> <3D890463.FDA8DC7B@sun.com> <002e01c26005$79c5bbe0$9ee8193e@vaio> <3D8A4364.32230DAF@sun.com> <006901c260d8$fb07f3c0$ebc2193e@vaio> <000701c260dc$023cb600$833a87d9@vaio> <3D8B7E2E.EC84E1CC@sun.com> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:20:57 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I think it was the lab coat man that put me off track.;-) He's an authority figure, which isn't quite the same as the herd instinct pattern in my view. > > > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring into being > > > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the majority do > > > really prevail in such societies. [...] > > > That it is some sort of mass habit? This is herd instinct, and it genuinely might be the reason why the pattern doesn't heal. On the assumption that the majority support the pattern. Things get darker if you assume that the majority don't favour the pattern. How then does it fail to heal? Then you have to start looking at the roles of authority figures and wondering about their integrity, or whether the political process just defeats things even if well intentioned folks have a significant majority. 'Moralität ist Heerden-Instinkt in Einzelnen.' Morality is the herd-instinct in the individual. Die fröhliche Wissenschaft ( (1882)) bk. 3, sect. 116 Nietzsche. By a strange coincidence, I have been reading the chapter on Imperfect Societies in Plato's Republic today. In his ranking, democracy falls just about tyranny in the hierarchy of society types he gives - with tyranny being the worst of the five. But his argument seems weak in that most of what he suggests as being bad about democracy actually look like quite good things to me. Talk about historical relativism. And as fuel for your essays I would like to add two other things. One is a quote from Gary Alexander's eGaia (http://sustainability.open.ac.uk/gary/pages/egaia.htm) book, that to my mind defines capitalism above and beyond mere trade exchange. "Instead of being constrained and controlled by the needs of humanity, much less the natural world, our modern globalised monetary system has taken on a life of its own. Flows of money have become relatively isolated from physical constraints. In 1995, only 2 or 3% of money flows were to do with trade or investment. The rest were speculative - buying and selling currencies." -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Armstrong" To: Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > The reasoning off only with respect to "intent". The majority > doesn't intend the consequences, but getting them seems to be > built into the system. > > This whole line of thought has led to an essay titled "what's > wrong with capitalism?" It plunged into my brain this morning. > I'll try to get something on paper soon. > > But the question you ask raises a corrolary issue, "what's > wrong with democracy?" > > (The titles are intended to be read ambiguously, as in "So > what's wrong with a little capitalism?" (it's a good thing) > in addition to "how do we fix this?".) > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > Wow. That has to be the worst piece of reasoning I've ever published. > > I'll try again later. > > > > "I cite having a bad headache by way of mitigation, your honour." > > > > -- > > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter Jones" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:07 PM > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > > > I did intend 'corporate morality'. > > > Certainly the herd instinct theory does seem to explain matters in that area, > > > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring into being > > > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the majority do > > > really prevail in such societies. Does this mean that the majority actually > > > enjoy inflicting this sort of psychological torture? > > > That it is some sort of mass habit? > > > Scary. > > > > > > For those wondering about the background to this discussion, we were > > discussing > > > the content of www.faceintel.com > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 15:08:14 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D65AC56FF9; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:08:13 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D78D656FF8 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:08:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1204.charizard.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.73.180] helo=vaio) by cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17sWE8-0002hS-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:26:20 +0100 Message-ID: <000f01c260f4$62393c00$b44987d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001401c25f3e$928695e0$407287d9@vaio> <3D890463.FDA8DC7B@sun.com> <002e01c26005$79c5bbe0$9ee8193e@vaio> <3D8A4364.32230DAF@sun.com> <006901c260d8$fb07f3c0$ebc2193e@vaio> <000701c260dc$023cb600$833a87d9@vaio> <3D8B7E2E.EC84E1CC@sun.com> <000701c260f3$ff1857a0$b44987d9@vaio> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:23:43 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org And the other is that I can't count. Clearly I'm having a bad brain day. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Jones" To: Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:20 PM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > I think it was the lab coat man that put me off track.;-) > He's an authority figure, which isn't quite the same as the herd instinct > pattern in my view. > > > > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring into > being > > > > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the majority > do > > > > really prevail in such societies. [...] > > > > That it is some sort of mass habit? > > This is herd instinct, and it genuinely might be the reason why the pattern > doesn't heal. > On the assumption that the majority support the pattern. > > Things get darker if you assume that the majority don't favour the pattern. > How then does it fail to heal? Then you have to start looking at the roles of > authority figures and wondering about their integrity, or whether the political > process just defeats things even if well intentioned folks have a significant > majority. > > 'Moralität ist Heerden-Instinkt in Einzelnen.' Morality is the herd-instinct in > the individual. > Die fröhliche Wissenschaft ( (1882)) bk. 3, sect. 116 > Nietzsche. > > By a strange coincidence, I have been reading the chapter on Imperfect Societies > in Plato's Republic today. > In his ranking, democracy falls just about tyranny in the hierarchy of society > types he gives - with tyranny being the worst of the five. But his argument > seems weak in that most of what he suggests as being bad about democracy > actually look like quite good things to me. Talk about historical relativism. > > And as fuel for your essays I would like to add two other things. One is a quote > from Gary Alexander's eGaia > (http://sustainability.open.ac.uk/gary/pages/egaia.htm) book, that to my mind > defines capitalism above and beyond mere trade exchange. > "Instead of being constrained and controlled by the needs of humanity, > much less the natural world, our modern globalised monetary system has > taken on a life of its own. Flows of money have become relatively isolated > from physical constraints. In 1995, only 2 or 3% of money flows were to > do with trade or investment. The rest were speculative - buying and selling > currencies." > > > -- > Peter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Armstrong" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > > The reasoning off only with respect to "intent". The majority > > doesn't intend the consequences, but getting them seems to be > > built into the system. > > > > This whole line of thought has led to an essay titled "what's > > wrong with capitalism?" It plunged into my brain this morning. > > I'll try to get something on paper soon. > > > > But the question you ask raises a corrolary issue, "what's > > wrong with democracy?" > > > > (The titles are intended to be read ambiguously, as in "So > > what's wrong with a little capitalism?" (it's a good thing) > > in addition to "how do we fix this?".) > > > > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > > > Wow. That has to be the worst piece of reasoning I've ever published. > > > I'll try again later. > > > > > > "I cite having a bad headache by way of mitigation, your honour." > > > > > > -- > > > Peter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Peter Jones" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:07 PM > > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > > > > > I did intend 'corporate morality'. > > > > Certainly the herd instinct theory does seem to explain matters in that > area, > > > > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring into > being > > > > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the majority > do > > > > really prevail in such societies. Does this mean that the majority > actually > > > > enjoy inflicting this sort of psychological torture? > > > > That it is some sort of mass habit? > > > > Scary. > > > > > > > > For those wondering about the background to this discussion, we were > > > discussing > > > > the content of www.faceintel.com > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 15:52:23 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7E35056FF8; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9655C56FF7 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 15:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 38759 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2002 23:09:47 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (10.1.17.76) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 20 Sep 2002 23:09:47 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:10:53 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <000701c260f3$ff1857a0$b44987d9@vaio> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This sort of immorality is by no means limited to corporations, capitalism, or any specific ideology. Organizations of all sorts, people in the mass, will support and go along with all manner of things. Some studies done of the activities of average citizens in support of the Third Reich are a source of wonderment. Beyond the herd instinct and the willingness to rely upon and follow authority, is what happens with any group that achieves power in some arena. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" may be a cliché, but it is a cliché because there is so much truth in it. Those in power can easily come to believe that "what is good for me and my organization is good for the world". Add to that the fact that power lovers seem to be drawn to "good causes" which seek some sort of power, and you have a real mess. Volunteer organizations of all sorts can experience problems because there is usually no way to get rid of the really eager "volunteer" who just happens to be driving the organization over a cliff. You want to see petty tyrants, just deal with most homeowners associations to the city council of a small town. There are elements that we haven't begun to understand about individual human behavior, and far more that we do not understand about human behavior in groups or in organizations. I have been interested for many years in determining how it is that a group or organization can make decisions and implement policies or practices that none of its members would consider as individuals. Unless we gain some understanding of the forces that cause this and how to counter them, we are going to continue to have problems with humans in groups. I suspect that a lot of behavior that gets blamed on one economic model or ideology or another is common to groups of many sorts and is merely seen manifesting in the sort of group that is most common. Note that it helps to have a society where some freedom of expression exists - in the worst cases, none of these problems can be know because nobody can speak of them without fearsome repercussions. As to why democracies haven't fixed the problem, majority rule has issues of its own. Majorities are fairly good at representing what outcomes they might like to see. They are far worse at determining whether outcomes are achievable and if so how. I would be ok with a majority deciding that having a bridge across a certain river would be desirable to improve traffic flow. I wouldn't want that same majority to design the bridge of even to do the traffic flow analysis that determined what impact such a bridge might have or exactly where to place the bridge. Unfortunately, we often try to use the majority to determine answers that are of the "how" variety rather than the "what" variety, or best yet "here are the tradeoffs for several approaches in terms that make sense, which is preferable for the group?" Our institutions have problems often because of the purposes to which we put them as much as because of the way they are structured or the philosophy which drives them. Having said that, there do appear to be some philosophies and organization structures that nearly always produce worse results than others. Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Peter Jones Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 3:21 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality I think it was the lab coat man that put me off track.;-) He's an authority figure, which isn't quite the same as the herd instinct pattern in my view. > > > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring into being > > > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the majority do > > > really prevail in such societies. [...] > > > That it is some sort of mass habit? This is herd instinct, and it genuinely might be the reason why the pattern doesn't heal. On the assumption that the majority support the pattern. Things get darker if you assume that the majority don't favour the pattern. How then does it fail to heal? Then you have to start looking at the roles of authority figures and wondering about their integrity, or whether the political process just defeats things even if well intentioned folks have a significant majority. 'Moralität ist Heerden-Instinkt in Einzelnen.' Morality is the herd-instinct in the individual. Die fröhliche Wissenschaft ( (1882)) bk. 3, sect. 116 Nietzsche. By a strange coincidence, I have been reading the chapter on Imperfect Societies in Plato's Republic today. In his ranking, democracy falls just about tyranny in the hierarchy of society types he gives - with tyranny being the worst of the five. But his argument seems weak in that most of what he suggests as being bad about democracy actually look like quite good things to me. Talk about historical relativism. And as fuel for your essays I would like to add two other things. One is a quote from Gary Alexander's eGaia (http://sustainability.open.ac.uk/gary/pages/egaia.htm) book, that to my mind defines capitalism above and beyond mere trade exchange. "Instead of being constrained and controlled by the needs of humanity, much less the natural world, our modern globalised monetary system has taken on a life of its own. Flows of money have become relatively isolated from physical constraints. In 1995, only 2 or 3% of money flows were to do with trade or investment. The rest were speculative - buying and selling currencies." -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Armstrong" To: Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > The reasoning off only with respect to "intent". The majority > doesn't intend the consequences, but getting them seems to be > built into the system. > > This whole line of thought has led to an essay titled "what's > wrong with capitalism?" It plunged into my brain this morning. > I'll try to get something on paper soon. > > But the question you ask raises a corrolary issue, "what's > wrong with democracy?" > > (The titles are intended to be read ambiguously, as in "So > what's wrong with a little capitalism?" (it's a good thing) > in addition to "how do we fix this?".) > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > Wow. That has to be the worst piece of reasoning I've ever published. > > I'll try again later. > > > > "I cite having a bad headache by way of mitigation, your honour." > > > > -- > > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter Jones" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:07 PM > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > > > I did intend 'corporate morality'. > > > Certainly the herd instinct theory does seem to explain matters in that area, > > > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring into being > > > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the majority do > > > really prevail in such societies. Does this mean that the majority actually > > > enjoy inflicting this sort of psychological torture? > > > That it is some sort of mass habit? > > > Scary. > > > > > > For those wondering about the background to this discussion, we were > > discussing > > > the content of www.faceintel.com > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 20 16:18:48 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EC6F256FF9; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AA0CC56FF8 for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacbell.net ([12.233.136.46]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020920233702.RHAP21615.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@pacbell.net> for ; Fri, 20 Sep 2002 23:37:02 +0000 Message-ID: <3D8BB11A.3090408@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 16:36:58 -0700 From: Gerald Pierce User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.1) Gecko/20020826 X-Accept-Language: en,pdf MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001401c25f3e$928695e0$407287d9@vaio> <3D890463.FDA8DC7B@sun.com> <002e01c26005$79c5bbe0$9ee8193e@vaio> <3D8A4364.32230DAF@sun.com> <006901c260d8$fb07f3c0$ebc2193e@vaio> <000701c260dc$023cb600$833a87d9@vaio> <3D8B7E2E.EC84E1CC@sun.com> <000701c260f3$ff1857a0$b44987d9@vaio> <000f01c260f4$62393c00$b44987d9@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I LOVE that statement. TRUE Bootstrapping! “Clearly I'm having a bad brain day.” ROFL. Maybe we can rope Douglas Hofstadter into the newsgroup. By the by, I've been meaning to ask you, Peter. Were you ever involved in radio plays? With regards to corporate morality, I worked for 12 years with a semiconductor equipment company. During that time this particular company went from pretty darn good to ,well, a substantial degree less than good as they made their way to become the #1 supplier in their field. It is amazing to me that so many good people working in a group could come to such a miserable state. First of all, everyone is pushed to his or her limits and the Peter Principle comes into play. All you need is to have one division VP who is a good manager, but never the less, at his limits. He is unable to digest all the info and relies on a shallow knowledge of how things are going. This is a situation ripe for a politically adept person or persons at the next level down to take immoral actions with his group and with his co-managers. Co-managers respond in kind in attempt to protect themselves and soon the whole division is poisoned. Productivity falls and creativity are diverted to spin doctoring rather than problem solving. Talent goes into shifting blame and other dark arts. If the product being produced has really good margins, there is little restraint on this kind of behavior. When profits are good, culture changes are unlikely. If one is in the business of fixing this kind of situation, it is wise to wait for hard times. One needs the luxury of “Dire Straits” I wish I could say that this is theory, but I was there, I watched it happen. There is more to be said, but I don’t trust myself not to start ranting so I will rest on the above afflictions. (reflections?) Gerald Pierce Q. E. D. Services Peter Jones wrote: > And the other is that I can't count. > Clearly I'm having a bad brain day. > > -- > Peter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter Jones" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:20 PM > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > >>I think it was the lab coat man that put me off track.;-) >>He's an authority figure, which isn't quite the same as the herd instinct >>pattern in my view. >> From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 21 04:01:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2C10056FF8; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 04:01:56 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.171]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B42956FF7 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 04:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1020.ditto.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.117.252] helo=vaio) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17siIs-0005A1-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:20:02 +0100 Message-ID: <001601c26160$782d8900$c36287d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <001c01c25e3c$20d3df00$2e07883e@vaio> <3D878F5B.2F8AC7C6@sun.com> <001401c25f3e$928695e0$407287d9@vaio> <3D890463.FDA8DC7B@sun.com> <002e01c26005$79c5bbe0$9ee8193e@vaio> <3D8A4364.32230DAF@sun.com> <006901c260d8$fb07f3c0$ebc2193e@vaio> <000701c260dc$023cb600$833a87d9@vaio> <3D8B7E2E.EC84E1CC@sun.com> <000701c260f3$ff1857a0$b44987d9@vaio> <000f01c260f4$62393c00$b44987d9@vaio> <3D8BB11A.3090408@pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:16:29 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Familiar afflictions, it seems. Flipping to the good side... Does anyone here _not_ have a tale of woe of the decline and fall of company X? I would be interested to hear tales of companies that have worked well. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Pierce" To: Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > I LOVE that statement. TRUE Bootstrapping! “Clearly I'm > having a bad brain day.” ROFL. Maybe we can rope Douglas > Hofstadter into the newsgroup. > > By the by, I've been meaning to ask you, Peter. Were you ever > involved in radio plays? > > With regards to corporate morality, I worked for 12 years with a > semiconductor equipment company. During that time this > particular company went from pretty darn good to ,well, a > substantial degree less than good as they made their way to > become the #1 supplier in their field. It is amazing to me that so > many good people working in a group could come to such a > miserable state. > > First of all, everyone is pushed to his or her limits and the Peter > Principle comes into play. All you need is to have one division VP > who is a good manager, but never the less, at his limits. He is > unable to digest all the info and relies on a shallow knowledge of > how things are going. This is a situation ripe for a politically adept > person or persons at the next level down to take immoral actions > with his group and with his co-managers. Co-managers respond in > kind in attempt to protect themselves and soon the whole division > is poisoned. Productivity falls and creativity are diverted to spin > doctoring rather than problem solving. Talent goes into shifting > blame and other dark arts. If the product being produced has really > good margins, there is little restraint on this kind of behavior. > When profits are good, culture changes are unlikely. If one is in > the business of fixing this kind of situation, it is wise to wait for > hard times. One needs the luxury of “Dire Straits” > > I wish I could say that this is theory, but I was there, I watched it > happen. There is more to be said, but I don’t trust myself not to > start ranting so I will rest on the above afflictions. (reflections?) > > Gerald Pierce > Q. E. D. Services > > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > And the other is that I can't count. > > Clearly I'm having a bad brain day. > > > > -- > > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Peter Jones" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:20 PM > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > > > > > >>I think it was the lab coat man that put me off track.;-) > >>He's an authority figure, which isn't quite the same as the herd instinct > >>pattern in my view. > >> > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 21 04:21:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 396E856FF8; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 04:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.180]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2860A56FF7 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 04:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-401.pounder.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.213.145] helo=vaio) by imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17sic4-0008Bx-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:39:52 +0100 Message-ID: <002701c26163$3d2fe200$c36287d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 12:37:16 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Great post again. I particularly liked the bridge building analogy. > I have been interested for many years in determining how it is that a group > or organization can make decisions and implement policies or practices that > none of its members would consider as individuals. That sounds important. Any interesting findings to date? I dipped into a book about political economy the other day. From the passage I read it was clear that there was a conflict between what was considered the optimal economic policy and the political constraints surrounding it. I didn't get as far as finding out exactly what the author meant by political constraints though. I've bought the book, now I just need to find time to read it. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 12:10 AM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > This sort of immorality is by no means limited to corporations, capitalism, > or any specific ideology. > Organizations of all sorts, people in the mass, will support and go along > with all manner of things. Some studies done of the activities of average > citizens in support of the Third Reich are a source of wonderment. > > Beyond the herd instinct and the willingness to rely upon and follow > authority, is what happens with any group that achieves power in some arena. > "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" may be a cliché, > but it is a cliché because there is so much truth in it. Those in power can > easily come to believe that "what is good for me and my organization is good > for the world". > > Add to that the fact that power lovers seem to be drawn to "good causes" > which seek some sort of power, and you have a real mess. Volunteer > organizations of all sorts can experience problems because there is usually > no way to get rid of the really eager "volunteer" who just happens to be > driving the organization over a cliff. You want to see petty tyrants, just > deal with most homeowners associations to the city council of a small town. > > There are elements that we haven't begun to understand about individual > human behavior, and far more that we do not understand about human behavior > in groups or in organizations. > > I have been interested for many years in determining how it is that a group > or organization can make decisions and implement policies or practices that > none of its members would consider as individuals. > > Unless we gain some understanding of the forces that cause this and how to > counter them, we are going to continue to have problems with humans in > groups. > > I suspect that a lot of behavior that gets blamed on one economic model or > ideology or another is common to groups of many sorts and is merely seen > manifesting in the sort of group that is most common. Note that it helps to > have a society where some freedom of expression exists - in the worst cases, > none of these problems can be know because nobody can speak of them without > fearsome repercussions. > > As to why democracies haven't fixed the problem, majority rule has issues of > its own. Majorities are fairly good at representing what outcomes they might > like to see. They are far worse at determining whether outcomes are > achievable and if so how. I would be ok with a majority deciding that having > a bridge across a certain river would be desirable to improve traffic flow. > I wouldn't want that same majority to design the bridge of even to do the > traffic flow analysis that determined what impact such a bridge might have > or exactly where to place the bridge. Unfortunately, we often try to use the > majority to determine answers that are of the "how" variety rather than the > "what" variety, or best yet "here are the tradeoffs for several approaches > in terms that make sense, which is preferable for the group?" > Our institutions have problems often because of the purposes to which we put > them as much as because of the way they are structured or the philosophy > which drives them. > Having said that, there do appear to be some philosophies and organization > structures that nearly always produce worse results than others. > > Thanks, > > Garold (Gary) L. Johnson > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Peter Jones > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 3:21 PM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > I think it was the lab coat man that put me off track.;-) > He's an authority figure, which isn't quite the same as the herd instinct > pattern in my view. > > > > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring > into > being > > > > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the > majority > do > > > > really prevail in such societies. [...] > > > > That it is some sort of mass habit? > > This is herd instinct, and it genuinely might be the reason why the pattern > doesn't heal. > On the assumption that the majority support the pattern. > > Things get darker if you assume that the majority don't favour the pattern. > How then does it fail to heal? Then you have to start looking at the roles > of > authority figures and wondering about their integrity, or whether the > political > process just defeats things even if well intentioned folks have a > significant > majority. > > 'Moralität ist Heerden-Instinkt in Einzelnen.' Morality is the herd-instinct > in > the individual. > Die fröhliche Wissenschaft ( (1882)) bk. 3, sect. 116 > Nietzsche. > > By a strange coincidence, I have been reading the chapter on Imperfect > Societies > in Plato's Republic today. > In his ranking, democracy falls just about tyranny in the hierarchy of > society > types he gives - with tyranny being the worst of the five. But his argument > seems weak in that most of what he suggests as being bad about democracy > actually look like quite good things to me. Talk about historical > relativism. > > And as fuel for your essays I would like to add two other things. One is a > quote > from Gary Alexander's eGaia > (http://sustainability.open.ac.uk/gary/pages/egaia.htm) book, that to my > mind > defines capitalism above and beyond mere trade exchange. > "Instead of being constrained and controlled by the needs of humanity, > much less the natural world, our modern globalised monetary system has > taken on a life of its own. Flows of money have become relatively isolated > from physical constraints. In 1995, only 2 or 3% of money flows were to > do with trade or investment. The rest were speculative - buying and selling > currencies." > > > -- > Peter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Armstrong" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > > The reasoning off only with respect to "intent". The majority > > doesn't intend the consequences, but getting them seems to be > > built into the system. > > > > This whole line of thought has led to an essay titled "what's > > wrong with capitalism?" It plunged into my brain this morning. > > I'll try to get something on paper soon. > > > > But the question you ask raises a corrolary issue, "what's > > wrong with democracy?" > > > > (The titles are intended to be read ambiguously, as in "So > > what's wrong with a little capitalism?" (it's a good thing) > > in addition to "how do we fix this?".) > > > > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > > > > Wow. That has to be the worst piece of reasoning I've ever published. > > > I'll try again later. > > > > > > "I cite having a bad headache by way of mitigation, your honour." > > > > > > -- > > > Peter > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Peter Jones" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 8:07 PM > > > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > > > > > > I did intend 'corporate morality'. > > > > Certainly the herd instinct theory does seem to explain matters in > that > area, > > > > but then it fails to explain why 'democracies' have failed to bring > into > being > > > > stricter employment laws to prevent such practices - assuming the > majority > do > > > > really prevail in such societies. Does this mean that the majority > actually > > > > enjoy inflicting this sort of psychological torture? > > > > That it is some sort of mass habit? > > > > Scary. > > > > > > > > For those wondering about the background to this discussion, we were > > > discussing > > > > the content of www.faceintel.com > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 21 05:54:04 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1D5E156FF8; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 05:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.chariot.net.au (mail.chariot.net.au [203.87.95.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4B28656FF7 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 05:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steves-imac.local. (ppp-101.cust203-87-122.ghr.chariot.net.au [203.87.122.101]) by mail.chariot.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE57E17FD5C for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:42:16 +0930 (CST) Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 22:42:22 +0930 Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) From: stephen white To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In-Reply-To: <3D8BB11A.3090408@pacbell.net> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Saturday, September 21, 2002, at 09:06 AM, Gerald Pierce wrote: > I LOVE that statement. TRUE Bootstrapping! =93Clearly I'm > having a bad brain day.=94 ROFL. Maybe we can rope Douglas > Hofstadter into the newsgroup. That brings up a question I've been wondering about for some time... Why isn't Douglas Englebart in this mailing list? It's about him, it's=20= about his area, good information gets posted, and there's good people=20 here. -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 21 07:16:50 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6D61A56FF8; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 07:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13702.mail.yahoo.com (web13702.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.135]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EC68956FF7 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 07:16:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020921143505.3959.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.73.5.212] by web13702.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 07:35:05 PDT Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 07:35:05 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] The Secret Behind the Death of the .coms. To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: meilin@ix.netcom.com, arne@synercom-edi.com, eric@worldstewards.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1980877897-1032618905=:3456" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1980877897-1032618905=:3456 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi there, Reading a transcript of Douglas recent speech tonight inspired me to share my little article - reproduced below - on the death of the .coms. Amongst other things, I was struck by Douglas trenchant thoughts on the obstcacles to social and socio-technical progress represented by the current intellectual property laws and the vested interests they protect. As he puts it:"...we are passing increasingly draconian laws to protect the economic value of copies of information. In the US, we are even contemplating laws that would require hardware manufacturers to take steps to encrypt and protect copies (ref. 2) ...We are doing this while entering a digital era in which the marginal cost of a copy is zero - at a time where the very meaning and significance of the notion of "copy" has changed. It is as if we are trying to erect dikes, using laws, to keep the future from flooding in.. " Here's my take on the issue: The secret behind the death of the dot.coms. Info tech is inherently a post-scarcity "communist" technology. Every Information technology insider knows this fact superficially in the sense that Information can be hard work to produce but is cheap or free to copy. But the implications are only beginning to manifest. The death of the dot.coms; the difficulties of publishing and collecting cash for it on the net; the music and film industries fears and travials ala napster; the difficulties in getting people to pay for *any* online services; and last but not least the massive `piracy' of software, are just the early harbingers of the impacts. This is not to say that people don't still have to work hard, at this juncture, to produce content or code. But, as `code' - in the broad sense of computer code, DNA code, and so forth - becomes ever more central in operating machines, generating knowledge, mediating human cooperation, and in the production of all forms of human wealth, the whole edifice of capitalism will be called into question. This is a somewhat future prospect, but the indicatores are there. There were premature expections of this `calling into question' in the late 1980's, but robotic technology in particular has taken longer, and involves far more research and complexitiy, than was then anticipated. Still, research - on robotic vision, movement, distributed robotic intelligence, and so forth - marches on. And the advent of new biotechnological advances, albeit fraught with ethical and scientific complexity, adds impetus to the `march of the code'. Moreover, to paraphrase the Cuban revolutionary Che Guevara, we are seeing the rise of `Two, three, many Napsters'. No sooner is one shut down than another one or two spring up Similar `illegal' cloning of new biotechnological advances (themselves a form of cloning and modification of nature) and of all other forms of code are inevitable. Intellectual property laws are still useful in certain respects at this juncture. But they can no more constrain these developments than the old feudal laws and social forms could constrain the radically new relationships which arose with industrial capitalism. The secret behind the death of the dot.coms was not simply that they lacked a `good business model'. The real secret is this: they were in fact trying to constrain post-scarcity processes within a scarcity-based economics. Hence, the `race to the bottom' - one creates an online service with a relatively high cost; the next clones and perhaps improves on the first but charges less; and the third gives the thing away. As *all* human wealth increasingly comes to rely on cooperation in the production, use, and sharing of code, information, and knowledge, the scarcity-based social relations of `information ownership' will be inexorably called into question. At least, from my perspective, that's how it looks at the moment. Cordially, Eric Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1980877897-1032618905=:3456 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi there,

Reading a transcript of Douglas recent speech tonight inspired me to share my little article - reproduced below - on the death of the .coms.  Amongst other things, I was struck by Douglas trenchant thoughts on the obstcacles to social and socio-technical progress represented by the current intellectual property laws and the vested interests they protect. 

As he puts it:"...we are passing increasingly draconian laws to protect the economic value of copies of information.  In the US, we are even  contemplating laws that would require hardware manufacturers to take steps to encrypt and protect copies (ref. 2) ...We are doing this while entering a digital era in which the marginal cost of a copy is zero - at a time where the very meaning and significance of the notion of "copy" has changed.  It is as if we are trying to erect dikes, using laws, to keep the future from flooding in.. "

Here's my take on the issue:

The secret behind the death of the dot.coms. 

Info tech is inherently a post-scarcity "communist" technology. Every Information technology insider knows this fact superficially in the sense that Information can be hard work to produce but is cheap or free to copy. But the implications are only beginning to manifest.

The death of the dot.coms; the difficulties of publishing and collecting cash for it on the net; the music and film industries fears and travials ala napster; the difficulties in getting people to pay for *any* online services; and last but not least the massive `piracy' of software, are just the early harbingers of the impacts.

This is not to say that people don't still have to work hard, at this juncture, to produce content or code. But, as `code' - in the broad sense of computer code, DNA code, and so forth - becomes ever more central in operating machines, generating knowledge, mediating human cooperation, and in the production of all forms of human wealth, the whole edifice of capitalism will be called into question.

This is a somewhat future prospect, but the indicatores are there.

There were premature expections of this `calling into question' in the late 1980's, but robotic technology in particular has taken longer, and involves far more research and complexitiy, than was then anticipated.

Still, research - on robotic vision, movement, distributed robotic intelligence, and so forth - marches on. And the advent of new biotechnological advances, albeit fraught with ethical and scientific complexity, adds impetus to the `march of the code'.

Moreover, to paraphrase the Cuban revolutionary Che Guevara, we are seeing the rise of `Two, three, many Napsters'. No sooner is one shut down than another one or two spring up

Similar `illegal' cloning of new biotechnological advances (themselves a form of cloning and modification of nature) and of all other forms of code are inevitable. Intellectual property laws are still useful in certain respects at this juncture. But they can no more constrain these developments than the old feudal laws and social forms could constrain the radically new relationships which arose with industrial capitalism.

The secret behind the death of the dot.coms was not simply that they lacked a `good business model'. 

The real secret is this:  they were in fact trying to constrain post-scarcity processes within a scarcity-based economics. Hence, the `race to the bottom' - one creates an online service with a relatively high cost; the next clones and perhaps improves on the first but charges less; and the third gives the thing away.

As *all* human wealth increasingly comes to rely on cooperation in the production, use, and sharing of code, information, and knowledge, the scarcity-based social relations of `information ownership' will be inexorably called into question.

At least, from my perspective, that's how it looks at the moment.

Cordially, Eric



Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1980877897-1032618905=:3456-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 21 16:28:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 862AD56FF7; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:28:55 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02DDD56FF5 for ; Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 82299 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2002 23:46:21 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (10.1.17.76) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 21 Sep 2002 23:46:21 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:47:40 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 In-Reply-To: <002701c26163$3d2fe200$c36287d9@vaio> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org What I have determined so far: 1) The situation is universal. William Livingston makes the point that when you find a certain set of conditions exist regardless of time, location, resources, culture, or any other variable that can be examined to explain it, then there must be a control system in place. If there were no control system, there would at least be random variations. His group has "war stories" from all industries and cultures over several decades and they all indicate that an organization will persist in behavior that is demonstrably destroying it rather then make the cultural changes necessary to survive. 2) The tendency to follow authority as shown in the experiments with delivering pain to subjects results in cultures that don't question why things are the way they are or how they could be different. 3) People respond to the actual rewards within the system rather than what words are spoken. When management says one thing and rewards something different, what is rewarded is what gets done. As a result, individual initiative is seldom rewarded, and when that initiative threatens to change things, it is actively resisted. This means that for the most part, change in organizations happens from the top down and is linked to changes in both explicit and implicit reward systems. 4) The stated goals of organizations are generally in terms of accomplishing some set of tasks and improving in the ability to do them. Individuals mostly just want to continue to play the game - to come to work, do what they have been doing, and get paid. So long as that happens, most people are content with their current level of ability. Getting better at what they do can cause conditions to change or is inhibited by the people around them not being able to handle the improvement, and therefore improvement beyond a certain level gets punished rather than rewarded by the culture. In some cases this is explicit - "slow down, you'll make the rest of us look bad." 5) Tendencies and predispositions that operate below the level of awareness and uniformly do not get recognized. This is the fish in water problem - mostly people are not aware of any signal that is constant and omnipresent. Whether these predispositions are genetic as "The Blank Slate" contends, the result of past lives and karma as some new age thought contends, or the result of ideas that just get "soaked up" from the environment, the result is the same - people have many activities that they perform with no conscious awareness, that were never "thought out," but just grew to be that way. It is difficult to think about something that you don't even perceive. 6) Very few people know how to think or reason. Most of those who can and will think do so in at most a small area of their lives. Reason doesn't convince most people of anything. As a result, we form relationships and organizations with no idea of what we are doing or what mechanisms are at work. We have never developed any real technology for forming and operating groups above the clan level. Trying to run a huge corporation in the same way as a clan in an environment which is subject to market forces is a recipe for disaster. However, we do not even recognize that there is a subject there that needs to be studied. Look at the work Stafford Beer did on the "Viable Systems Model" for some idea of what sorts of design elements go into structuring any system so that it can survive. 7) We are never really taught how to think or to reason. Our educational system is as lost as all other large organizations. As a result of having no stated goal and no technology for evaluating how well they are performing in achieving that goal (achievement not being part of what the individuals want nor what the system rewards), they are as big a disaster as any other large organization. The result is that most of the real achievers are "undereducated" by current standards. The student who survives a complete course of modern education with any of the original joy of learning or even the native ability to think is rare indeed. The system seems to destroy what most people had to begin with. 8) Since none of these issues are perceived as problems to be solved, there is never anybody seriously studying the questions. Instead, each group starts with some notion of how the world works that has never been verified against the reality of human nature, and decides how thing could be. Nearly every one of them is wrong. The idea, for example, that a million non-thinking people can arrive at better solutions than a few very intelligent, thinking people who study the issues seriously is simply silly. When we start with such ideas in the face of obvious facts such as the one that says that only a small percentage of any group such as this one even participate much less contribute, it is no wonder that we have difficulties. When your basic notions of the way the world works fail to match the way the world *really* works, you are doomed to get nothing but unworkable answers. When you believe that there is no such thing as the "way the world *really* works," you have no way to proceed. Every utopian ideal is based on some notion of a change in the nature of human beings to be more as the author would like them to be instead of their being the way they are. As such, they are based on false-to-fact assumptions and are doomed to failure from the outset. 9) Once ideas polarize, there is no way to uncover the truth. If your ideas fail to support one side or the other, both sides will attack you instead of only one. This is additionally hampered by the belief in, and the search for, some ultimate or absolute truth. We are finite beings of finite capacity. Since recognizing an *ultimate* truth requires knowing that it can *never* be shown to be wrong by future evidence, such recognition would require total knowledge. The very best we can hope to do is to develop theories and hypotheses that correctly explain the maximum amount of what we can align with the world around us, and then work to improve those ideas by seeking out the boundaries where they fail and modifying the ideas. This means that we need to develop some real understanding of the so-called "soft" sciences, since that is where the problems with individuals, groups, organizations, and cultures are to be found. At our present state of understanding, even the attempt to formulate appropriate questions is attacked by various forms of "political correctness," depending on which power elite get to say what is "politically correct" in any specific area. This happens every bit as much in areas that are considered to be scientific as it does in areas considered to be non-scientific. >From the above it should be clear that the entire area is in a stage of complexity, indicating that there is no clear understanding of how it all works. This leads me to the multi-part question that I formulated in my teens and am still working on: * What constitutes rationality, how can it be recognized, how can we know when we are becoming more rational rather than less? What is the place of emotions and other "non-rational" human characteristics in rationality? This needs to be formulated in a way that can garner at least some level of agreement. * How can an adult who chooses to do so become more rational over time, and know that he is making progress? Unless we can get partial answers to this question, there is no real method of achieving individual improvement. * How can we raise children so that they stand a better chance of being more rational than their parents and teachers? The goal is independent thinkers who can function better in the world than we did. This is the basis of improvement for the group. We need to teach what we believe we know lest the students lose the benefit of what has gone before, but they need to be able to question what they have been taught when it fails to match the "real" world. To be able to question intelligently rather than just out of contrariness is a fine line to walk. To be sufficiently independent not to accept the statement of eminent authority without question while still being able to cooperate with others in the furtherance of mutual goals is another fine line. * How does the organization and presentation of information support the above? It is clear that some organizations transfer information (knowledge, wisdom, etc.) better than others, and that an individual must be able to organize the results of his study in order to do a credible job of formulating his own beliefs and validating them against his experience and that of others. This also requires that he be able to walk the paths that "common knowledge" believes to be dead ends. This is to keep him from making the same errors or to enable him to question the premises and reasoning leading to the conclusion that they are dead ends, since not everything that is called a dead end is in fact one when more information or a different perspective is available. This is where my passion for tools that support the individuals ability to organize his own information comes from - individuals make up groups, and trying to change groups without changing individuals is a fool's errand. Individuals need to be able to examine their beliefs and behaviors, understand them, attain mastery of them, and then be able to perform them unconsciously as a result of mastery rather than lack of awareness. They must be able to notice when that they do or believe no longer serves them and to take conscious control to change them. I know this is another "tome", but you asked :-)> Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Peter Jones Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 4:37 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Great post again. I particularly liked the bridge building analogy. > I have been interested for many years in determining how it is that a group > or organization can make decisions and implement policies or practices that > none of its members would consider as individuals. That sounds important. Any interesting findings to date? I dipped into a book about political economy the other day. From the passage I read it was clear that there was a conflict between what was considered the optimal economic policy and the political constraints surrounding it. I didn't get as far as finding out exactly what the author meant by political constraints though. I've bought the book, now I just need to find time to read it. -- Peter From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 22 13:49:49 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 638E956FF8; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ADA5956FF5 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jacklaptop ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020922210759.PNPT8451.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@jacklaptop> for ; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 21:07:59 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020922140413.024fcf00@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:04:50 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] [Fwd: US Climate Science Research Plan] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org >From: Steve Kurtz > >FYI, > >Steve > >-------- Original Message -------- >From: TDietzVT@aol.com >Subject: US Climate Science Research Plan >To: envtecsoc@csf.colorado.edu > > > >Below is an announcement of a workshop to garner input into the US Climate >Change Science Plan. I thought it might be of interest to some of you. It >is often the case that the social science and especially the sociological >community is silent on these plans while the physical and biological science >communities are quite articulate. Please forward as you see appropriate. > >Best, >Tom Dietz > >Chair, U.S. National Research Council Committee on Human Dimensions of Global >Change >College of Arts and Sciences Distinguished Professor >Professor of Environmental Science and Policy >Professor of Sociology >George Mason University >Fairfax, Virginia 22030 USA >Phone: 703 993 1435 >Fax: 703 993 1446 >Email: tdietzvt@aol.com >Web address: www.dietzkalof.org > > >================ > >Announcement and Invitation > > >U.S. Climate Change Science Pro >gram: Planning Workshop for Scientists >and Stakeholders >Sponsored by the U.S. Climate Change Science Program, Incorporating >USGCRP and CCRI >December 3-5, 2002 > > >Marriott Wardman Park Hotel >2660 Woodley Road, NW >Washington, D.C. > > >THE WORKSHOP > > >The United States Climate Change Science Program will hold a >comprehensive Workshop on the U.S. Climate Change Science Program, from >December 3 to 5, 2002 in Washington, DC to receive comments on a >discussion draft version of its Strategic Plan for climate change and >global change studies. The U.S. Climate Change Science Program >incorporating the U.S. Global Change Research Program (USGCRP) and the >Climate Change Research Initiative (CCRI) is jointly sponsored by 13 >U.S. government agencies. The workshop will review the USGCRP/CCRI >plans with emphasis on the development of short-term (2 ? 5 years) >products to support climate change policy and resource management >decision-making. > > >BACKGROUND > > >The U.S. Global Change Research Act of 19 >90 initiated the USGCRP that >continues today as a major sponsor of global change research. In June >2001 President George W. Bush directed the USGCRP agencies to develop a >focused Climate Change Research Initiative (CCRI) with the goal of >accelerating the USGCRP research activities in the next 2 to 5 years, to >assist in the development of public policy and natural resource >management tools related to climate change issues. When finalized, the >draft Strategic Plan reviewed during and after the Workshop will provide >the principal guidance for the U.S. global change and climate change >research programs during the next several years, subject to revisions as >appropriate to respond to newly developed information and decision >support tools. > > >PURPOSE OF WORKSHOP > > >The Workshop responds to the President's direction that the U.S. global >change and climate change science programs must be objective, sensitive >to uncertainties, and well documented for public debate. The U.S. global >chang >e and climate change research programs must consistently meet the >highest standards of credibility, transparency, and responsiveness to >the scientific community, as well as to all interested user groups, and >our international partners. To assure the continued scientific >credibility of the U.S. Climate Change Science Program, the Workshop >will provide a comprehensive review of the discussion draft of the >Strategic Plan. The Workshop discussions, supplemented by written >comments submitted during a 30-day post-Workshop period, will be >reflected in the final Strategic Plan. > > >WHO SHOULD ATTEND > > >-Members of the scientific community interested in reviewing and >commenting on the plans and expected deliverables of the USGCRP/CCRI >research program >-Members of the climate stakeholder and resource management communities >interested in commenting on the planned application of the USGCRP/CCRI >scientific, economic, and energy system information to policy and >resource management decisions >- >Members of the international climate change community interested in >reviewing and discussing the updated U.S. research and decision support >plans > > >WORKSHOP TOPICS > > >The workshop will include a plenary session each day, as well as the >following breakouts: >Observations, Monitoring, and Data Management >Scenario Development and Evaluation >Climate Models: Implementation and Application >Decision Support Tool Development >Atmospheric Composition >Carbon Cycle >Water Cycle >Climate Variability and Change >Ecosystem Interactions: Forcing and Feedbacks >Human Contributions and Responses to Climate Change >Land Use/Land Cover Change >International Scientific Collaboration >Public Communication of Information and Findings > > >INVITED KEYNOTE SPEAKERS > > >Several senior U.S.?based and international science and user group >leaders have been invited to be keynote speakers for the plenary >sessions. A partial list of invited keynote speakers includes: >Dr. Bruce Alberts, President, NAS >Hon. Robert Card, U >ndersecretary of Energy >Dr. Rita R. Colwell, Director, NSF >VADM Conrad C. Lautenbacher, Administrator, NOAA >Dr. John H. Marburger, Director, OSTP, EOP >Prof. G.O.P. Obasi, Secretary General, WMO >Hon. Sean O'Keefe, Administrator, NASA >Dr. R. K. Pachauri, Chairman, IPCC >Hon. Klaus Toepfer, Executive Director, UNEP > > >WORKSHOP/REVIEWER PROCESS > > >The Workshop will include daily plenary sessions and several breakout >sessions. Each breakout session will begin with a summary presentation >of an element of the discussion draft of the Strategic Plan, and will >include invited reviewer comments, as well as general attendee comments. >Summary records will be prepared for every session. > > >PUBLICATION OF THE DISCUSSION DRAFT OF THE STRATEGIC PLAN > > >The discussion draft of the Strategic Plan will be posted on the web >site www.climatescience.gov by November 11, >2002 for scientific and >public review. Comments, questions >and suggestions are welcomed from >both scientific and stakeholder communities during and after the >Workshop. Comments can be posted up to a month after the workshop at >www.climatescience.gov . > > >OVERSIGHT BY THE U.S. NATIONAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES > > >An advisory committee appointed by the U.S. National Academy of Sciences >(NAS) will undertake an independent review of the draft Strategic Plan, >and will give consideration to the scientific and stakeholder community >comments during and after the Workshop. > > >PRODUCT > > >The U.S. Climate Change Science Program will be responsible for >preparation of the final version of the Strategic Plan, based on its >evaluation of information presented at the Workshop and/or posted on its > >web site, as well as full review of the recommendations developed by the >NAS. The final Strategic Plan will be published in April 2003. > > >SPONSORING AGENCIES > > >Departments of Agriculture, C >ommerce, Defense, Energy, Health and Human >Services, the Interior, State, and Transportation; Environmental >Protection Agency; National Aeronautics and Space Administration; >National Science Foundation; Smithsonian Institution; and U.S. Agency >for International Development. > > >SCHEDULE > > >Tuesday, December 3: 9:30 a.m. - 5:30 p.m. >Wednesday, December 4: 8:30 a.m. - 5:30 p.m. >Thursday, December 5: 8:30 a.m. - 4:00 p.m. > > >REGISTRATION AND LOGISTICAL INFORMATION is available at the web site >www.climatescience.gov > > >QUESTIONS ABOUT WORKSHOP OBJECTIVES AND PRESENTATIONS: > > >James R. Mahoney, Ph.D. >Assistant Secretary of Commerce for >Oceans and Atmosphere, and >Director, U.S. Climate Change Science Program >workshop@climatescience.gov > > > > > > > >-- >http://popu >lationinstitute.ca >http://www.scientists4pr.org/ >Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a >finite world is either a madman or an economist. Kenneth Boulding --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 22 14:00:33 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9B0DA56FF9; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.179]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7BCBB56FF8 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 14:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-735.tailslide.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.194.223] helo=vaio) by imailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17tE7g-0000l9-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 22:18:37 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c2627d$4114a020$dfc2193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 22:16:00 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Gary, > I know this is another "tome", but you asked :-)> Amazing work! And I hope I speak for others too in saying so. In fact, this one's going on my wall in a frame. :-) It also looks like it's tacitly a list of requirements. Let's work on extracting them. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:47 AM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > What I have determined so far: > 1) The situation is universal. William Livingston makes the point that when > you find a certain set of conditions exist regardless of time, location, > resources, culture, or any other variable that can be examined to explain > it, then there must be a control system in place. If there were no control > system, there would at least be random variations. His group has "war > stories" from all industries and cultures over several decades and they all > indicate that an organization will persist in behavior that is demonstrably > destroying it rather then make the cultural changes necessary to survive. > 2) The tendency to follow authority as shown in the experiments with > delivering pain to subjects results in cultures that don't question why > things are the way they are or how they could be different. > 3) People respond to the actual rewards within the system rather than what > words are spoken. When management says one thing and rewards something > different, what is rewarded is what gets done. As a result, individual > initiative is seldom rewarded, and when that initiative threatens to change > things, it is actively resisted. This means that for the most part, change > in organizations happens from the top down and is linked to changes in both > explicit and implicit reward systems. > 4) The stated goals of organizations are generally in terms of accomplishing > some set of tasks and improving in the ability to do them. Individuals > mostly just want to continue to play the game - to come to work, do what > they have been doing, and get paid. So long as that happens, most people are > content with their current level of ability. Getting better at what they do > can cause conditions to change or is inhibited by the people around them not > being able to handle the improvement, and therefore improvement beyond a > certain level gets punished rather than rewarded by the culture. In some > cases this is explicit - "slow down, you'll make the rest of us look bad." > 5) Tendencies and predispositions that operate below the level of awareness > and uniformly do not get recognized. This is the fish in water problem - > mostly people are not aware of any signal that is constant and omnipresent. > Whether these predispositions are genetic as "The Blank Slate" contends, the > result of past lives and karma as some new age thought contends, or the > result of ideas that just get "soaked up" from the environment, the result > is the same - people have many activities that they perform with no > conscious awareness, that were never "thought out," but just grew to be that > way. It is difficult to think about something that you don't even perceive. > 6) Very few people know how to think or reason. Most of those who can and > will think do so in at most a small area of their lives. Reason doesn't > convince most people of anything. As a result, we form relationships and > organizations with no idea of what we are doing or what mechanisms are at > work. We have never developed any real technology for forming and operating > groups above the clan level. Trying to run a huge corporation in the same > way as a clan in an environment which is subject to market forces is a > recipe for disaster. However, we do not even recognize that there is a > subject there that needs to be studied. Look at the work Stafford Beer did > on the "Viable Systems Model" for some idea of what sorts of design elements > go into structuring any system so that it can survive. > 7) We are never really taught how to think or to reason. Our educational > system is as lost as all other large organizations. As a result of having no > stated goal and no technology for evaluating how well they are performing in > achieving that goal (achievement not being part of what the individuals want > nor what the system rewards), they are as big a disaster as any other large > organization. The result is that most of the real achievers are > "undereducated" by current standards. The student who survives a complete > course of modern education with any of the original joy of learning or even > the native ability to think is rare indeed. The system seems to destroy what > most people had to begin with. > 8) Since none of these issues are perceived as problems to be solved, there > is never anybody seriously studying the questions. Instead, each group > starts with some notion of how the world works that has never been verified > against the reality of human nature, and decides how thing could be. Nearly > every one of them is wrong. The idea, for example, that a million > non-thinking people can arrive at better solutions than a few very > intelligent, thinking people who study the issues seriously is simply silly. > When we start with such ideas in the face of obvious facts such as the one > that says that only a small percentage of any group such as this one even > participate much less contribute, it is no wonder that we have difficulties. > When your basic notions of the way the world works fail to match the way the > world *really* works, you are doomed to get nothing but unworkable answers. > When you believe that there is no such thing as the "way the world *really* > works," you have no way to proceed. Every utopian ideal is based on some > notion of a change in the nature of human beings to be more as the author > would like them to be instead of their being the way they are. As such, they > are based on false-to-fact assumptions and are doomed to failure from the > outset. > 9) Once ideas polarize, there is no way to uncover the truth. If your ideas > fail to support one side or the other, both sides will attack you instead of > only one. This is additionally hampered by the belief in, and the search > for, some ultimate or absolute truth. We are finite beings of finite > capacity. Since recognizing an *ultimate* truth requires knowing that it can > *never* be shown to be wrong by future evidence, such recognition would > require total knowledge. The very best we can hope to do is to develop > theories and hypotheses that correctly explain the maximum amount of what we > can align with the world around us, and then work to improve those ideas by > seeking out the boundaries where they fail and modifying the ideas. This > means that we need to develop some real understanding of the so-called > "soft" sciences, since that is where the problems with individuals, groups, > organizations, and cultures are to be found. At our present state of > understanding, even the attempt to formulate appropriate questions is > attacked by various forms of "political correctness," depending on which > power elite get to say what is "politically correct" in any specific area. > This happens every bit as much in areas that are considered to be scientific > as it does in areas considered to be non-scientific. > > From the above it should be clear that the entire area is in a stage of > complexity, indicating that there is no clear understanding of how it all > works. > > This leads me to the multi-part question that I formulated in my teens and > am still working on: > * What constitutes rationality, how can it be recognized, how can we know > when we are becoming more rational rather than less? What is the place of > emotions and other "non-rational" human characteristics in rationality? This > needs to be formulated in a way that can garner at least some level of > agreement. > * How can an adult who chooses to do so become more rational over time, and > know that he is making progress? Unless we can get partial answers to this > question, there is no real method of achieving individual improvement. > * How can we raise children so that they stand a better chance of being more > rational than their parents and teachers? The goal is independent thinkers > who can function better in the world than we did. This is the basis of > improvement for the group. We need to teach what we believe we know lest the > students lose the benefit of what has gone before, but they need to be able > to question what they have been taught when it fails to match the "real" > world. To be able to question intelligently rather than just out of > contrariness is a fine line to walk. To be sufficiently independent not to > accept the statement of eminent authority without question while still being > able to cooperate with others in the furtherance of mutual goals is another > fine line. > * How does the organization and presentation of information support the > above? It is clear that some organizations transfer information (knowledge, > wisdom, etc.) better than others, and that an individual must be able to > organize the results of his study in order to do a credible job of > formulating his own beliefs and validating them against his experience and > that of others. This also requires that he be able to walk the paths that > "common knowledge" believes to be dead ends. This is to keep him from making > the same errors or to enable him to question the premises and reasoning > leading to the conclusion that they are dead ends, since not everything that > is called a dead end is in fact one when more information or a different > perspective is available. This is where my passion for tools that support > the individuals ability to organize his own information comes from - > individuals make up groups, and trying to change groups without changing > individuals is a fool's errand. Individuals need to be able to examine their > beliefs and behaviors, understand them, attain mastery of them, and then be > able to perform them unconsciously as a result of mastery rather than lack > of awareness. They must be able to notice when that they do or believe no > longer serves them and to take conscious control to change them. > > I know this is another "tome", but you asked :-)> > > Thanks, > > Garold (Gary) L. Johnson > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Peter Jones > Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 4:37 AM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality > > Great post again. I particularly liked the bridge building analogy. > > > I have been interested for many years in determining how it is that a > group > > or organization can make decisions and implement policies or practices > that > > none of its members would consider as individuals. > > That sounds important. Any interesting findings to date? > > I dipped into a book about political economy the other day. From the passage > I > read it was clear that there was a conflict between what was considered the > optimal economic policy and the political constraints surrounding it. I > didn't > get as far as finding out exactly what the author meant by political > constraints > though. > I've bought the book, now I just need to find time to read it. > > -- > Peter > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 22 15:12:03 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8C9E356FFA; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:12:02 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.180]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 798E056FF9 for ; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 15:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-124.kook.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.168.124] helo=vaio) by imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17tFEu-0002w4-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:30:09 +0100 Message-ID: <002201c26287$3f577b40$dfc2193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 23:26:46 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 x-mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org The 'requirements' list I've extracted looks like this so far: The [blah] must permit and encourage: a) cultural change; b) constructive critique of authority; c) rewards must be matched to stated goals; safe sponsorship of individual initiative; bottom-up change requests; d) multi-pace processing; e) challenging of habits; f) "Viable Systems Model" - Stafford Beer; g) reasoning support; learning, and the joy of learning; mentoring; h) reality checking; i) collaborative thinking; j) task-capability matching;* [*not sure about this one - looks like a bad idea to leave it to the machine.] k) dry-run participation; l) fast scenario modelling; m) undermining, or better, preventing polarization; n) information transparency; o) creativity; ? I might have a go at speaking to the rationality questions later. Cheers, -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Sent: Sunday, September 22, 2002 12:47 AM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality [massive snippage of the good works] From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 04:05:24 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 03E1956FF9; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:05:20 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mrburns.nildram.co.uk (mrburns.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4791456FF8 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:05:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwdemocracy.org (pm6-165.dial.nildram.co.uk [195.149.1.165]) by mrburns.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282B41E230A for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:23:32 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D8EF9D1.7020804@wwdemocracy.org> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:24:01 +0100 From: John Turnbull User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality References: <002201c26287$3f577b40$dfc2193e@vaio> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060603070807050401060103" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------060603070807050401060103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At the risk of joining this thread too late, I feel I have to take issue with Gary when he says, The idea, for example, that a million non-thinking people can arrive at better solutions than a few very intelligent, thinking people who study the issues seriously is simply silly. Who are these 'non-thinking' people, Gary? This is exactly the kind of attitude that has prevented real democracy from emerging, that has kept millions of people from playing a meaningful role in the conduct of their own societies' affairs.Somebody asked in an earlier posting "what is wrong with democracy?" The answer is that we don't have any - all we have is pseudo-democracy, which has evolved for the purpose that is implicit in Gary's thinking: to exclude the masses and let those who 'know best' make the decisions. If we are to have anything approaching a just society, ALL of the people affected by decisions MUST be have the opportunity to be involved in the decision making process. Democracy must be a learning process, with all of us learning from each other, not simply the 'non-thinking' people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them. Cheers, John --------------060603070807050401060103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit At the risk of joining this thread too late, I feel I have to take issue with Gary when he says,
The idea, for example, that a million non-thinking people can arrive at better solutions than a few very intelligent, thinking people who study the issues seriously is simply silly. 

Who are these 'non-thinking' people, Gary? This is exactly the kind of attitude that has prevented real democracy from emerging, that has kept millions of people from playing a meaningful role in the conduct of their own societies' affairs.Somebody asked in an earlier posting "what is wrong with democracy?" The answer is that we don't have any - all we have is pseudo-democracy, which has evolved for the purpose that is implicit in Gary's thinking: to exclude the masses and let those who 'know best' make the decisions. If we are to have anything approaching a just society, ALL of the people affected by decisions MUST be have the opportunity to be involved in the decision making process. Democracy must be a learning process, with all of us learning from each other, not simply the 'non-thinking' people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them.

Cheers,

John


--------------060603070807050401060103-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 05:38:53 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EDDF956FFA; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 05:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp.uiah.fi (artisti.uiah.fi [128.214.123.2]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2182456FF9 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 05:38:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mlab-lume-dyn-56 ([128.214.134.56] helo=uiah.fi) by smtp.uiah.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17tSlq-0001Ah-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:57:02 +0300 Message-ID: <3D8F0FA7.7070405@uiah.fi> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:57:11 +0300 From: Teemu Leinonen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020508 Netscape6/6.2.3 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL and Fle3 References: <4.2.2.20020909125501.020cf6c0@thinkalong.com> <4.2.2.20020909132759.01fbf7c0@thinkalong.com> <4.2.2.20020909173717.020ced70@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Hello, One more time about the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) and the Fle3 software (http://fle3.uiah.fi) released under the GPL. After discussing with several developers here and there we came up to the conclusion that actually the GPL fits very well to the aims of the Fle3 project. The Fle3 is made with tax payers money, in a public research institution, as a part of a research on computer supported collaborative learning (CSCL). We hope that the Fle3 software and other results of the research will benefit public schools and universities. The idea of the Fle3 is to be open for development that will benefit the whole developer and user community. GPL guarantees this. For this reason the GPL fits better to our aims than the LGPL (or any other "less" general public licence). We understand that in some other situation the LGPL would be more appropriate. Best regards, - Teemu ________________________ Teemu Leinonen http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ Office: + 358 9 756 30 296 GSM: +358 50 351 6796 Media Lab, UIAH Helsinki http://www.mlab.uiah.fi Future Learning Environment 3 http://fle3.uiah.fi From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 10:00:41 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1DA1957000; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 928E156FF8 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29828 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2002 17:18:06 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (10.1.17.76) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2002 17:18:06 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:19:48 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C262EA.BEC5D260" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 In-Reply-To: <3D8EF9D1.7020804@wwdemocracy.org> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C262EA.BEC5D260 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: John Turnbull > At the risk of joining this thread too late, I feel I have to take issue with Gary when he says, >> The idea, for example, that a million non-thinking people can arrive at better solutions than a few >> very intelligent, thinking people who study the issues seriously is simply silly. > Who are these 'non-thinking' people, Gary? This is exactly the kind of attitude that has prevented real democracy from emerging, that has > kept millions of people from playing a meaningful role in the conduct of their own societies' affairs. If you really believe that a mass of people can make any sort of decision, I suggest that you actually try it. I accept that all people need to be able to “play a meaningful role in the conduct of their own affairs,” but I do not think that extends to obtaining opinions on matters which do require specific expertise. If you read all the post (a chore I admit) you will see that I believe that group participation is good for determining “how we would like things to be,” or “give a set of workable options and their consequences, which do we prefer (or non, so look for more option.” If you think this is elitist, consider having the people in the hospital waiting rooms vote on how to perform your brain surgery and then make the surgeon conform to the “will of the majority”. > Somebody asked in an earlier posting > "what is wrong with democracy?" The answer is that we don't have any - all we have is pseudo-democracy, which has evolved for the > purpose that is implicit in Gary's thinking: to exclude the masses and let those who 'know best' make the decisions. There is *no* such purpose implicit in *my* thinking. You are correct that we have problems with the way our democracy is organized. A major problem that we have is that we get to vote on which of a set of unworkable proposals we want to implement. Having lawyers attempt to design systems of any sort with a purpose to get re-elected is not a good way to get workable systems. I keep hearing about becoming an informed citizen – has anybody tried lately? When a typical piece of legislation runs to several thousand pages, much of which makes modifications to other multi-thousand page documents, and which is written to obfuscate in the first place, becoming informed is a hopeless task. In my youth I believed that this was the problem with government – that the information load was overwhelming – so that better information systems (knowledge systems, if you will) were a part of the solution. I now know that the problems are *not* simply a matter of information overload. > If we are to have > anything approaching a just society, ALL of the people affected by decisions MUST be have the opportunity to be involved in the > decision making process. Democracy must be a learning process, with all of us learning from each other, not simply the 'non-thinking' > people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them. I agree. How many people in any volunteer organization actually participate? About 20% - 30% if the figures that keep cropping up are correct. What leads you to believe that this percentage will be different if we extend it to millions? We should make it possible for all of the people affected by decisions to have the opportunity to be involved in the decisions. The idea of “simply the 'non-thinking' people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them” is yours, not mine. I will continue to insist that we should leave it to those affected to decide whether to invest the resources in a bridge, a mine, a satellite, but I do not accept that this means that this same group should *design* that bridge, mine, or satellite. I have seen what happens when that job is tackled by an “elite” of college-trained engineers numbering in the hundreds of thousands – not a pretty site. Trying to accomplish this by letting everyone who wants to vote on the engineering required would never result in a project that works –it almost doesn’t now. The affected people *should* get more input than they do as to *whether* these projects are undertaken. As a final point, we have a very select group of people on this forum, with a relatively narrow set of goals (relative to the total set possible) and even with this “elite” and several years of time, we have not yet been able to agree even on what it is we are trying to accomplish, much less how to go about doing it. There is good work being done by a few individuals, but the democratic process hasn’t been having a lot of success at developing a system that works. Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C262EA.BEC5D260 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

From: John Turnbull

> At the risk of joining this thread too late, I = feel I have to take issue with Gary when he says,

>> The idea, for example, that a million non-thinking =
people can arrive at better solutions than a few 
>>
very intelligent, thinking people who study the = issues seriously is simply silly. <= /pre>
 <=
/pre>
> Who are these 'non-thinking' people, =
Gary? This is exactly the kind of attitude that has prevented real =
democracy from emerging, that has
>
kept millions of people from playing a meaningful = role in the conduct of their own societies' affairs.
If you really believe that a =
mass of people can make any sort of decision, I suggest that you =
actually try it. I accept that all people need to be able to “play =
a meaningful role in the conduct of their own affairs,” but I do =
not think that extends to obtaining opinions on matters which do require =
specific expertise. If you read all the post (a chore I admit) you will =
see that I believe that group participation is good for determining =
“how we would like things to be,” or “give a set of =
workable options and their consequences, which do we prefer (or non, so =
look for more option.” If you think this is elitist, consider =
having the people in the hospital waiting rooms vote on how to perform =
your brain surgery and then make the surgeon conform to the “will =
of the majority”.
> Somebody asked in an earlier posting =

>
"what is wrong with democracy?" The answer = is that we don't have any - all we have is pseudo-democracy, which has = evolved for the
>
= purpose that is implicit in Gary's thinking: to exclude the masses and = let those who 'know best' make the decisions.
There is *no* such purpose implicit in =
*my* thinking. You are correct that =
we have problems with the way our democracy is organized. A major =
problem that we have is that we get to vote on which of a set of =
unworkable proposals we want to implement. Having lawyers attempt to =
design systems of any sort with a purpose to get re-elected is not a =
good way to get workable systems.
I keep hearing about becoming an informed citizen – has anybody = tried lately? When a typical piece of legislation runs to several = thousand pages, much of which makes modifications to other = multi-thousand page documents, and which is written to obfuscate in the = first place, becoming informed is a hopeless task. In my youth I = believed that this was the problem with government – that the = information load was overwhelming – so that better information = systems (knowledge systems, if you will) were a part of the solution. I = now know that the problems are *not* simply a matter of = information overload.
>
If = we are to have
>
= anything approaching a just society, ALL of the people affected by = decisions MUST be have the opportunity to be involved in = the
>
= decision making process. Democracy must be a learning process, with all = of us learning from each other, not simply the 'non-thinking' =
>
people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's = good for them.
I agree. How many people in any volunteer =
organization actually participate? About 20% - 30% if the figures that =
keep cropping up are correct. What leads you to believe that this =
percentage will be different if we extend it to millions? We should make =
it possible for all of the people affected by decisions to have the =
opportunity to be involved in the =
decisions.
The idea of  simply the 'non-thinking' =
people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them” =
is yours, not mine.
I will continue to insist that =
we should leave it to those affected to decide whether to invest the =
resources in a bridge, a mine, a satellite, but I do not accept that =
this means that this same group should *design* that bridge, mine, or =
satellite. I have seen what happens when that job is tackled by an =
“elite” of college-trained engineers numbering in the =
hundreds of thousands – not a pretty site. Trying to accomplish =
this by letting everyone who wants to vote on the engineering required =
would never result in a project that works –it almost =
doesn’t now. The affected people *should* get more input than they =
do as to *whether* these projects are =
undertaken.
As a final point, we have a =
very select group of people on this forum, with a relatively narrow set =
of goals (relative to the total set possible) and even with this =
“elite” and several years of time, we have not yet been able =
to agree even on what it is we are trying to accomplish, much less how =
to go about doing it. There is good work being done by a few =
individuals, but the democratic process hasn’t been having a lot =
of success at developing a system that works.
 

 

Thanks,

 

Garold (Gary) L. Johnson =

 

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C262EA.BEC5D260-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 10:11:53 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8801757001; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A3A5357000 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 33484 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2002 17:29:18 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (10.1.17.76) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 2002 17:29:18 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:31:01 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C262EC.4FE1D7C0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C262EC.4FE1D7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sorry abut the long lines – Microsoft Outlook strikes again. I don’t know how it happens. Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Garold (Gary) L. Johnson Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 10:20 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality [ message snipped ] ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C262EC.4FE1D7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry abut the long lines – Microsoft Outlook strikes = again. I don’t know how it happens.

 

Thanks,

 

Garold (Gary) L. = Johnson

<= span class=3DEmailStyle19> 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org = [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Garold (Gary) L. = Johnson
Sent: Monday, September = 23, 2002 10:20 AM
To: = ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org
Subject: RE: = [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality

[ message snipped = ]

 

------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C262EC.4FE1D7C0-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 10:30:44 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0FD9F57002; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.colo.affero.net (unknown [65.36.78.24]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3E4CA57001 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:48:05 -1000 From: Henri Poole To: teemu.leinonen@uiah.fi Cc: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL and Fle3 Message-Id: <20020923104805.18c9f272.poole@affero.com> In-Reply-To: <3D8F0FA7.7070405@uiah.fi> References: <4.2.2.20020909125501.020cf6c0@thinkalong.com> <4.2.2.20020909132759.01fbf7c0@thinkalong.com> <4.2.2.20020909173717.020ced70@thinkalong.com> <3D8F0FA7.7070405@uiah.fi> Organization: Affero, Inc. X-Mailer: Sylpheed version 0.7.4 (GTK+ 1.2.7; i586-pc-linux-gnu) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Teemu, If the GPL fits your purpose, you might consider the AGPL. There is a potential bug in the GPL for web services. You can read an article on the problem at http://distributed.foundries.sourceforge.net/distributed/02/05/21/2245226.shtml?tid=52 . The AGPL *is* the GPL but contains a provision specifically for web services which might support your goals. If the developer creates a download source funtion, the provision requires that derivatives include that functionality. It ensures that future service providers that use your software keep it open. The license has been endorsed by the Free Software Foundation and *should* be compatible with v3 of the GPL. You can see the license at http://www.affero.org/oagpl.html. -Henri On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:57:11 +0300 "Teemu Leinonen" wrote: > Hello, > > One more time about the GNU General Public Licence (GPL) and the > Fle3 software (http://fle3.uiah.fi) released under the GPL. > > After discussing with several developers here and there we came up > to the conclusion that actually the GPL fits very well to the aims > of the Fle3 project. The Fle3 is made with tax payers money, in a > public research institution, as a part of a research on computer > supported collaborative learning (CSCL). We hope that the Fle3 > software and other results of the research will benefit public > schools and universities. > > The idea of the Fle3 is to be open for development that will benefit > the whole developer and user community. GPL guarantees this. For > this reason the GPL fits better to our aims than the LGPL (or any > other "less" general public licence). We understand that in some > other situation the LGPL would be more appropriate. > > Best regards, > > - Teemu > ________________________ > Teemu Leinonen > http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ > Office: + 358 9 756 30 296 > GSM: +358 50 351 6796 > Media Lab, UIAH Helsinki > http://www.mlab.uiah.fi > Future Learning Environment 3 > http://fle3.uiah.fi > > -- . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Make my day by helping my friends! http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=poole From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 14:21:47 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8083857001; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0B66B57000 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:21:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20380; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:39:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8NLdti19169; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:39:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D8F8A79.8C4A0A9A@sun.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:41:13 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk , hm Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] First S.F. Chronicle article on trans fats Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Just came across this article the S.F. Chronicle ran on trans fats. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/30/FD40307.DTL&type=food It occurs to me that in a very real way, journalism is the only real guardian we have against the untrammeled excesses of capitalism. That role is properly filled by government, but with elections going to the most well-funded, the effect is to have the foxes in charge of the chicken coop! From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 14:28:41 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9DF8957005; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1EB7157001 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 14:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-96.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.96] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17tb2Z-0004S1-00; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:46:51 -0400 Message-ID: <3D8F8BC6.4060707@rcn.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:46:46 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] First S.F. Chronicle article on trans fats References: <3D8F8A79.8C4A0A9A@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric Armstrong wrote: >It occurs to me that in a very real way, journalism is the >only real guardian we have against the untrammeled excesses >of capitalism. That role is properly filled by government, >but with elections going to the most well-funded, the effect >is to have the foxes in charge of the chicken coop! > But it seems to me that the press is pretty much in the pockets--I mean, downright owned--by the capitalist foxes. It seems to me that a lot of Americans are fairly brainwashed by a very conservative press. The foxes own the chicken coop! Gary (the other one) >Just came across this article the S.F. Chronicle >ran on trans fats. > >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/30/FD40307.DTL&type=food > >It occurs to me that in a very real way, journalism is the >only real guardian we have against the untrammeled excesses >of capitalism. That role is properly filled by government, >but with elections going to the most well-funded, the effect >is to have the foxes in charge of the chicken coop! > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 15:04:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 51C0D57003; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail9.wlv.netzero.net (mail9.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.66]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A421257000 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 19648 invoked from network); 23 Sep 2002 22:23:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO netzero.net) (207.94.110.158) by mail9.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 23 Sep 2002 22:23:08 -0000 Message-ID: <3D8F94AD.3CFD624A@netzero.net> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 15:24:45 -0700 From: "John J. Deneen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-{C-UDP; EBM-SONY1} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Peter Van Dijck: Info Architect IAWiki XFML and Evolt.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fascinating bootstrap info about Peter Van Dijck's (info architect) web sites regarding human nature and corporate morality (cognitive psychology & ethnography), including his Evolt.org that implements his eXchangable Faceted Metadata Language < http://xfml.org > for exchanging metadata between websites. * Background and concepts. "XFML is a format based on topicmaps, an extremely advanced metadata format. It is optimized for sharing and connecting (faceted) metadata categories between different websites. Conceptually, in XFML metadata is separated (as topics) from content: you create a map that exists on its own, regardless of whether you have any content that relates to the map. This provides a lot of power in that it allows you to work with your map as an entity of its own, you can import facets of other maps, merge topics and so on. It contrasts with the approach taken by many other metadata schemes where the metadata is kept in or with the document." * Evolt.org & IAWiki XFML Implementation "Evolt.org is a world community for web developers, promoting the mutual free exchange of ideas, skills and experiences. What "evolt" means: "evolt" combines the best elements of evolution, revolution, with a bit of voltage thrown in for good measure. "evolt" embodies our goals and enthusiasm!" < http://evolt.org/ > o IAWiki XFML < http://www.iawiki.net/XFML > ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! 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owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 16:29:47 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8494857000; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 158B756FF8 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11535 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:47:58 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8NNlvi15622 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D8FA87B.90CC5A20@sun.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 16:49:15 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] First S.F. Chronicle article on trans fats References: <3D8F8A79.8C4A0A9A@sun.com> <3D8F8BC6.4060707@rcn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Gary Richmond wrote: > But it seems to me that the press is pretty much in the pockets--I mean, > downright owned--by the capitalist foxes. > It seems to me that a lot of Americans are fairly brainwashed by a very > conservative press. The foxes own the chicken coop! Hey, Gary. I need a photo to keep straight who's who. In general, I agree. I think it's true for the major papers, owned by the mega corps. The S.F. Chronicle would appear to be a fairly independent operation, though, as witnessed by their series of articles, beginning with the one below. > >Just came across this article the S.F. Chronicle > >ran on trans fats. > > > >http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/30/FD40307.DTL&type=food > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 17:49:34 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8A70857000; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2389356FF8 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-96.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.96] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17teAz-0000do-00; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:07:45 -0400 Message-ID: <3D8FBADB.9050805@rcn.com> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:07:39 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] First S.F. Chronicle article on trans fats References: <3D8F8A79.8C4A0A9A@sun.com> <3D8F8BC6.4060707@rcn.com> <3D8FA87B.90CC5A20@sun.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090803000600030708030904" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------090803000600030708030904 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric, Yes, there are a few "fairly independent operations" out there, but I don't think they are having much impact, preaching as they do to the converted. No doubt you're right about the Chronicle. But most of the "major" "influential" papers in the country--at least the ones I know of (and even the vast majority of the big city papers which simply influence millions of locals, like the Cleveland Plain Dealer or the St. Louis Post Dispatch), lean heavily to the right. Even the work of independent journalists that I've sometimes posted to unrev from the Times are more "the exception that proves the rule." The Times is hardly a liberal paper, though to even attempt some occasional balanced coverage gets it labeled that--as the press is generally--by the right. Still, I agree with you that a free press are our best hope of yet retaining anything of what might be left of democracy in this country. a Gary Eric Armstrong wrote: >Gary Richmond wrote: > >>But it seems to me that the press is pretty much in the pockets--I mean, >>downright owned--by the capitalist foxes. >>It seems to me that a lot of Americans are fairly brainwashed by a very >>conservative press. The foxes own the chicken coop! >> > >Hey, Gary. > >I need a photo to keep straight who's who. > >In general, I agree. I think it's true for the major papers, owned by >the mega corps. The S.F. Chronicle would appear to be a fairly >independent operation, though, as witnessed by their series of articles, >beginning with the one below. > >>>Just came across this article the S.F. Chronicle >>>ran on trans fats. >>> >>>http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/30/FD40307.DTL&type=food >>> > > --------------090803000600030708030904 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Eric,

Yes, there are a few "fairly independent operations" out there,  but I don't think they are having much impact,  preaching as they do to the converted.

No doubt you're right about the Chronicle. But most of the "major" "influential" papers in the country--at least the ones I know of (and even the vast majority of the big city papers which simply influence millions of locals, like the Cleveland Plain Dealer or the St. Louis Post Dispatch), lean heavily to the right.

Even  the work of independent journalists that I've sometimes posted to unrev from the Times are more "the exception that proves the rule." The Times is hardly a liberal paper, though to even attempt some occasional balanced coverage gets it labeled that--as the press is generally--by the right.

Still, I agree with you that a free press are our best hope of yet retaining anything of what might be left of democracy in this country.

a Gary





Eric Armstrong wrote:
Gary Richmond wrote:

But it seems to me that the press is pretty much in the pockets--I mean,
downright owned--by the capitalist foxes.
It seems to me that a lot of Americans are fairly brainwashed by a very
conservative press. The foxes own the chicken coop!

Hey, Gary.

I need a photo to keep straight who's who.

In general, I agree. I think it's true for the major papers, owned by
the mega corps. The S.F. Chronicle would appear to be a fairly
independent operation, though, as witnessed by their series of articles,
beginning with the one below.

Just came across this article the S.F. Chronicle
ran on trans fats.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2002/01/30/FD40307.DTL&type=food




--------------090803000600030708030904-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 23 18:55:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id DC6B457001; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (smtp2.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.230]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A6C556FF8 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux (cs662583-231.satx.rr.com [66.25.83.231]) by txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8O2DZRg006943 for ; Mon, 23 Sep 2002 22:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Matthew Schneider To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] First S.F. Chronicle article on trans fats Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 21:14:28 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: <3D8F8A79.8C4A0A9A@sun.com> <3D8FA87B.90CC5A20@sun.com> <3D8FBADB.9050805@rcn.com> In-Reply-To: <3D8FBADB.9050805@rcn.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200209232114.28723.matsch@sasites.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Monday 23 September 2002 20:07, Gary Richmond wrote: > Still, I agree with you that a free press are our best hope of yet > retaining anything of what might be left of democracy in this country. Certainly use of the Internet/Usenet/Web by "the average man" in the stre= ets=20 play an increasingly important role (talk about preaching to the choir ;)= All=20 the more important that we remain vigilant and fight any effort to limit = its=20 use. On a somewhat related note, I am anxious to read Howard Rheingold's=20 forthcoming tome: "Smart Mobs", http://www.smartmobs.com/book/index.html =46rom the summary: "Media cartels and government agencies are seeking to= =20 reimpose the regime of the broadcast era in which the customers of techno= logy=20 will be deprived of the power to create and left only with the power to=20 consume." Matthew A. Schneider From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 03:05:18 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 3E09E56FF9; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mrburns.nildram.co.uk (mrburns.nildram.co.uk [195.112.4.54]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B182B56FF4 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 03:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from wwdemocracy.org (pm7-217.dial.nildram.co.uk [195.149.0.217]) by mrburns.nildram.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E1FD1E1BC1; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:23:20 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3D903D44.2090508@wwdemocracy.org> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:24:04 +0100 From: John Turnbull User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060205070202090101040103" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------060205070202090101040103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't mean to suggest that group participation in brain surgery or engineering is a good idea - of course it's not. But I've been back to your original posting, and in the section in which you make this comment you appear to be talking about problem solving in general, society-wide terms, not specifics. If I've got my wires crossed here, I apologise. I agree that very few people can presently be bothered to participate in anything at all, least of all politics. Why? Because the political process is not something that people believe they have much (if any) influence over, or because they are happy with the status quo, or (and this one always baffles me) because they don't think that politics has any relevance to their lives. A more general explanation would be that western society has become increasingly atomised, with the result that we have lost sight of how interdependent we really are. The path to real democracy is to become a learning society, one in which we strive to acknowledge and understand this interdependence. This is a massive task, and goes much further than simply making a few alterations to the current system of representative (pseudo-) democracy. You hit the nail on the head when you say that "we get to vote on which of a set of unworkable proposals we want to implement" - why shouldn't "we" be involved in the design of those proposals from the outset? I don't mean that random people should be dragged off the street to draft a thousand-page piece of legislation, but there are processes, such as citizens' juries (to give just one example), that could be used to ensure that those affected by policy (ie all of us) have a hand in designing it. With the desire and the expertise, it can be done: masses of people are already making decisions about how public money is spent across Brazil through the process of the Participative Budget - and the leader of the party that implemented this looks set to be the next president. Regards, John World Wide Democracy Network Garold (Gary) L. Johnson wrote: > From: John Turnbull > >> At the risk of joining this thread too late, I feel I have to take > issue with Gary when he says, > >>> The idea, for example, that a million non-thinking people can arrive > at better solutions than a few > >>> very intelligent, thinking people who study the issues seriously is > simply silly. > > > >> Who are these 'non-thinking' people, Gary? This is exactly the kind of attitude that has prevented real democracy from emerging, that has > >> kept millions of people from playing a meaningful role in the conduct of their own societies' affairs. > >If you really believe that a mass of people can make any sort of decision, I suggest that you actually try it. I accept that all people need to be able to "play > >a meaningful role in the conduct of their own affairs," but I do not think that extends to obtaining opinions on matters which do require specific expertise. > >If you read all the post (a chore I admit) you will see that I believe that group participation is good for determining "how we would like things to be," or "give a > >set of workable options and their consequences, which do we prefer (or non, so look for more option." If you think this is elitist, consider having the people in the > >hospital waiting rooms vote on how to perform your brain surgery and then make the surgeon conform to the "will of the majority". > >> Somebody asked in an earlier posting > >> "what is wrong with democracy?" The answer is that we don't have any - all we have is pseudo-democracy, which has evolved for the > >> purpose that is implicit in Gary's thinking: to exclude the masses and let those who 'know best' make the decisions. > >There is *no* such purpose implicit in *my* thinking. You are correct that we have problems with the way our democracy > >is organized. A major problem that we have is that we get to vote on which of a set of unworkable proposals we want to > >implement. Having lawyers attempt to design systems of any sort with a purpose to get re-elected is not a good way to get > >workable systems. > >I keep hearing about becoming an informed citizen - has anybody tried lately? When a typical piece of legislation runs to > >several thousand pages, much of which makes modifications to other multi-thousand page documents, and which is written to > >obfuscate in the first place, becoming informed is a hopeless task. In my youth I believed that this was the problem with > >government - that the information load was overwhelming - so that better information systems (knowledge systems, if you > >will) were a part of the solution. I now know that the problems are *not* simply a matter of information overload. > >> If we are to have > >> anything approaching a just society, ALL of the people affected by decisions MUST be have the opportunity to be involved in the > >> decision making process. Democracy must be a learning process, with all of us learning from each other, not simply the 'non-thinking' > >> people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them. > >I agree. How many people in any volunteer organization actually participate? About 20% - 30% if the figures that keep cropping up are correct. What leads you to believe > >that this percentage will be different if we extend it to millions? We should make it possible for all of the people affected by decisions to have the opportunity to be > >involved in the decisions. > >The idea of "simply the 'non-thinking' people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them" is yours, not mine. > >I will continue to insist that we should leave it to those affected to decide whether to invest the resources in a bridge, a mine, a satellite, but I do not accept that this > >means that this same group should *design* that bridge, mine, or satellite. I have seen what happens when that job is tackled by an "elite" of college-trained > >engineers numbering in the hundreds of thousands - not a pretty site. Trying to accomplish this by letting everyone who wants to vote on the engineering required > >would never result in a project that works -it almost doesn't now. The affected people *should* get more input than they do as to *whether* these projects are > >undertaken. > >As a final point, we have a very select group of people on this forum, with a relatively narrow set of goals (relative to the total set possible) and even with this > >"elite" and several years of time, we have not yet been able to agree even on what it is we are trying to accomplish, much less how to go about doing it. There is > >good work being done by a few individuals, but the democratic process hasn't been having a lot of success at developing a system that works. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Garold (Gary) L. Johnson > > > --------------060205070202090101040103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't mean to suggest that group participation in brain surgery or engineering is a good idea - of course it's not. But I've been back to your original posting, and in the section in which you make this comment you appear to be talking about problem solving in general, society-wide terms, not specifics. If  I've got my wires crossed here, I apologise.

I agree that very few people can presently be bothered to participate in anything at all, least of all politics. Why? Because the political process is not something that people believe they have much (if any) influence over, or because they are happy with the status quo, or (and this one always baffles me) because they don't think that politics has any relevance to their lives. A more general explanation would be that western society has become increasingly atomised, with the result that we have lost sight of how interdependent we really are.

The path to real democracy is to become a learning society, one in which we strive to acknowledge and understand this interdependence. This is a massive task, and goes much further than simply making a few alterations to the current system of representative (pseudo-) democracy. You hit the nail on the head when you say that "we get to vote on which of a set of unworkable proposals we want to implement" - why shouldn't "we" be involved in the design of those proposals from the outset?  I don't mean that random people should be dragged off the street to draft a thousand-page piece of legislation, but there are processes, such as citizens' juries (to give just one example), that could be used to ensure that those affected by policy (ie all of us) have a hand in designing it. With the desire and the expertise, it can be done: masses of people are already making decisions about how public money is spent across Brazil through the process of the Participative Budget - and the leader of the party that implemented this looks set to be the next president.

Regards,

John
World Wide Democracy Network

Garold (Gary) L. Johnson wrote:

From: John Turnbull

> At the risk of joining this thread too late, I feel I have to take issue with Gary when he says,

>> The idea, for example, that a million non-thinking people can arrive at better solutions than a few

>>
very intelligent, thinking people who study the issues seriously is simply silly.

 
> Who are these 'non-thinking' people, Gary? This is exactly the kind of attitude that has prevented real democracy from emerging, that has

> kept millions of people from playing a meaningful role in the conduct of their own societies' affairs.
If you really believe that a mass of people can make any sort of decision, I suggest that you actually try it. I accept that all people need to be able to “play 
a meaningful role in the conduct of their own affairs,” but I do not think that extends to obtaining opinions on matters which do require specific expertise. 
If you read all the post (a chore I admit) you will see that I believe that group participation is good for determining “how we would like things to be,” or “give a 
set of workable options and their consequences, which do we prefer (or non, so look for more option.” If you think this is elitist, consider having the people in the 
hospital waiting rooms vote on how to perform your brain surgery and then make the surgeon conform to the “will of the majority”.
> Somebody asked in an earlier posting 

> "what is wrong with democracy?" The answer is that we don't have any - all we have is pseudo-democracy, which has evolved for the

> purpose that is implicit in Gary's thinking: to exclude the masses and let those who 'know best' make the decisions. 
There is *no* such purpose implicit in *my* thinking. You are correct that we have problems with the way our democracy 
is organized. A major problem that we have is that we get to vote on which of a set of unworkable proposals we want to 
implement. Having lawyers attempt to design systems of any sort with a purpose to get re-elected is not a good way to get 
workable systems.

I keep hearing about becoming an informed citizen – has anybody tried lately? When a typical piece of legislation runs to
several thousand pages, much of which makes modifications to other multi-thousand page documents, and which is written to 
obfuscate in the first place, becoming informed is a hopeless task. In my youth I believed that this was the problem with 
government – that the information load was overwhelming – so that better information systems (knowledge systems, if you 
will) were a part of the solution. I now know that the problems are *not* simply a matter of information overload.

> If we are to have

> anything approaching a just society, ALL of the people affected by decisions MUST be have the opportunity to be involved in the

> decision making process. Democracy must be a learning process, with all of us learning from each other, not simply the 'non-thinking' 

> people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them.
I agree. How many people in any volunteer organization actually participate? About 20% - 30% if the figures that keep cropping up are correct. What leads you to believe 
that this percentage will be different if we extend it to millions? We should make it possible for all of the people affected by decisions to have the opportunity to be 
involved in the decisions.
The idea of  simply the 'non-thinking' people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them” is yours, not mine.
I will continue to insist that we should leave it to those affected to decide whether to invest the resources in a bridge, a mine, a satellite, but I do not accept that this
means that this same group should *design* that bridge, mine, or satellite. I have seen what happens when that job is tackled by an “elite” of college-trained 
engineers numbering in the hundreds of thousands – not a pretty site. Trying to accomplish this by letting everyone who wants to vote on the engineering required 
would never result in a project that works –it almost doesn’t now. The affected people *should* get more input than they do as to *whether* these projects are 
undertaken.
As a final point, we have a very select group of people on this forum, with a relatively narrow set of goals (relative to the total set possible) and even with this 
“elite” and several years of time, we have not yet been able to agree even on what it is we are trying to accomplish, much less how to go about doing it. There is 
good work being done by a few individuals, but the democratic process hasn’t been having a lot of success at developing a system that works.
 

 

Thanks,

 

Garold (Gary) L. Johnson

 


--------------060205070202090101040103-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 06:20:25 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 24CF356FF9; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:20:25 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 588F256FF4 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 06:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-96.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.96] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17tpta-0005Tx-00; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:38:34 -0400 Message-ID: <3D906AD8.9020103@rcn.com> Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 09:38:32 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] First S.F. Chronicle article on trans fats References: <3D8F8A79.8C4A0A9A@sun.com> <3D8FA87B.90CC5A20@sun.com> <3D8FBADB.9050805@rcn.com> <200209232114.28723.matsch@sasites.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080902090605000306050404" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------080902090605000306050404 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew Schneider wrote: >Certainly use of the Internet/Usenet/Web by "the average man" in the streets >play an increasingly important role . . . > No doubt the Internet can play an important role in the possible future of democracy. A further concluding thought in the summary of Rheingold's "Smart Mobs" (thanks for directing me to it) sets forth the problematic: it all depends on the use and control of it. > The way we use these technologies, and the way governments allow us to > use them, is very much in question. Technologies of cooperation, or > the ultimate disinfotainment apparatus? The next several years are a > crucial and unusually malleable interregnum. Especially in this > interval before the new media sphere settles into its final shape, > what we know and what we do matters. "Technologies of cooperation, or the ultimate disinfotainment apparatus." Your comment: >. . .that we remain vigilant and fight any effort to limit its >use > is exactly the point--or at least a vital part of it. Still, how we go about doing this is another. How we might put it to positive use in cooperation and collaboration is yet another. Gary >On Monday 23 September 2002 20:07, Gary Richmond wrote: > >>Still, I agree with you that a free press are our best hope of yet >>retaining anything of what might be left of democracy in this country. >> > >Certainly use of the Internet/Usenet/Web by "the average man" in the streets >play an increasingly important role (talk about preaching to the choir ;) All >the more important that we remain vigilant and fight any effort to limit its >use. > >On a somewhat related note, I am anxious to read Howard Rheingold's >forthcoming tome: "Smart Mobs", http://www.smartmobs.com/book/index.html > >From the summary: "Media cartels and government agencies are seeking to >reimpose the regime of the broadcast era in which the customers of technology >will be deprived of the power to create and left only with the power to >consume." > >Matthew A. Schneider > --------------080902090605000306050404 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matthew Schneider wrote:
Certainly use of the Internet/Usenet/Web by "the average man" in the streets 
play an increasingly important role . . . 
No doubt the Internet can play an important role in the possible future of democracy. A further concluding thought in the summary of Rheingold's "Smart Mobs" (thanks for directing me to it) sets forth the problematic: it all depends on the use and control of it. 
The way we use these technologies, and the way governments allow us to use them, is very much in question. Technologies of cooperation, or the ultimate disinfotainment apparatus? The next several years are a crucial and unusually malleable interregnum. Especially in this interval before the new media sphere settles into its final shape, what we know and what we do matters.
"Technologies of cooperation, or the ultimate disinfotainment apparatus." Your comment:
. . .that we remain vigilant and fight any effort to limit its 
use
is exactly the point--or at least a vital part of it. Still, how we go about doing this is another. How we might put it to positive use in cooperation and collaboration is yet another.

Gary
On Monday 23 September 2002 20:07, Gary Richmond wrote:

Still, I agree with you that a free press are our best hope of yet
retaining anything of what might be left of democracy in this country.

Certainly use of the Internet/Usenet/Web by "the average man" in the streets
play an increasingly important role (talk about preaching to the choir ;) All
the more important that we remain vigilant and fight any effort to limit its
use.

On a somewhat related note, I am anxious to read Howard Rheingold's
forthcoming tome: "Smart Mobs", http://www.smartmobs.com/book/index.html

From the summary: "Media cartels and government agencies are seeking to
reimpose the regime of the broadcast era in which the customers of technology
will be deprived of the power to create and left only with the power to
consume."

Matthew A. Schneider


--------------080902090605000306050404-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 07:59:40 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BA4E157000; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D1D0756FF4 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 07:59:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 36001 invoked from network); 24 Sep 2002 15:17:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (192.168.45.236) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 2002 15:17:04 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 08:18:04 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C263A2.E7B44CC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3D903D44.2090508@wwdemocracy.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C263A2.E7B44CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I believe that it makes sense for all affected people to decide, for example, that it would be desirable to have food production be less centralized. Given that goal, multiple alternatives at various levels could be examined from a technical / engineering perspective, and the resulting possible approaches presented back to the people with a clear analysis of the pros and cons and the issues involved. IBIS-like structures work for some of this, but a significant part is the sort of discussion that says that the following N elements of the proposed solutions have been discovered and considered important, what are the relative importances? Once discussion has provided at least a partial ordering, the various approaches, and maybe some new ones can be examined based on those relative importances. This is what we claim we should do when designing systems for use by a specific audience, and I see no reason why a similar approach won’t work with larger groups if we can provide honest information. Part of what happens today is that most proposals are already polarized by the time we hear that there is even a discussion. We are then presented with a single “solution” in terms of some proposed legislation. The advocates say it is a great idea and that opponents are short sighted, stupid, rude, etc. The opponents say it is a terrible idea and that advocates are short sighted, stupid, rude, etc. The use of various argumentation structures is being pursued, and there is some real possibility for ways of presenting the elements of even complex problems in such a way that they can be grasped by people who are not experts in the specific area of the problem. If these are enhanced to support the sort of partial ordering of concerns that allow for describing how various sorts of trade-offs should be treated, I think it should be possible to allow huge numbers of people to participate in the discussions in a meaningful way. Discussion needs to be transformed into the argumentation presentation periodically since it does appear to be difficult to do this at the time of entry. One of the meta-questions that needs to be addressed continually in such a system is “does the transformation into the argumentation system capture accurately all of the points made in the original discussion. Some of the tools that Stafford Beer has proposed ( http://www.staffordbeer.com/papers/Origins%20Team%20Syntegrity.pdf ) provides ways for “working groups” to address issues with all points of view getting expressed, and to avoid polarization. By using the input form all stakeholders to determine what factors are important and what sorts of outcomes are desired, it may then be possible to design the systems that will provide features that are maximally satisfying. Every such discussion needs to have a “none of the above” selection. In “The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress,” one of Heinlein’s characters tosses out several ideas for the structuring of a new government. Among the ideas that sound interesting are: * Have 2 legislative bodies. One can pass laws, but only with a 2/3 majority. The second can repeal laws with only a 1/3 minority. The logic is that any legislation that cannot win the approval of 2/3 of those involved is likely not very good, and any legislation that is actively opposed by as little as 1/3 of those involved is also likely not very good. * Have some representatives be able to be elected by getting 10,000 people to approve him/her and the representative would represent those 10,000 people. One thing is clear to me – the most local solution that works deserves a high degree of consideration. I can’t say that this is necessarily the best, but the closer any system is to meeting the needs of all involved, the better it is, and that is easier to do when the number involved is smaller rather than larger. The more people are affected, the more likely it is that there will have to be “special cases” to account for the more local issues that arise. Clearly, more people would participate if the barriers were not so high. Alo ng with the technology of information systems, we need to understand and find ways to deals with such things as polarization of discussion. Whenever we can succeed at getting all parties on the same side in pursuit of improvements to the existing scene, we stand a chance of reaching solutions that do the best possible job of meeting the needs of the people. Once the people take sides against each other instead of against the problem, it gets very difficult to make any progress towards a solution. Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of John Turnbull Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 3:24 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality I didn't mean to suggest that group participation in brain surgery or engineering is a good idea - of course it's not. But I've been back to your original posting, and in the section in which you make this comment you appear to be talking about problem solving in general, society-wide terms, not specifics. If I've got my wires crossed here, I apologise. I agree that very few people can presently be bothered to participate in anything at all, least of all politics. Why? Because the political process is not something that people believe they have much (if any) influence over, or because they are happy with the status quo, or (and this one always baffles me) because they don't think that politics has any relevance to their lives. A more general explanation would be that western society has become increasingly atomised, with the result that we have lost sight of how interdependent we really are. The path to real democracy is to become a learning society, one in which we strive to acknowledge and understand this interdependence. This is a massive task, and goes much further than simply making a few alterations to the current system of representative (pseudo-) democracy. You hit the nail on the head when you say that "we get to vote on which of a set of unworkable proposals we want to implement" - why shouldn't "we" be involved in the design of those proposals from the outset? I don't mean that random people should be dragged off the street to draft a thousand-page piece of legislation, but there are processes, such as citizens' juries (to give just one example), that could be used to ensure that those affected by policy (ie all of us) have a hand in designing it. With the desire and the expertise, it can be done: masses of people are already making decisions about how public money is spent across Brazil through the process of the Participative Budget - and the leader of the party that implemented this looks set to be the next president. Regards, John World Wide Democracy Network Garold (Gary) L. Johnson wrote: From: John Turnbull > At the risk of joining this thread too late, I feel I have to take issue with Gary when he says, >> The idea, for example, that a million non-thinking people can arrive at better solutions than a few >> very intelligent, thinking people who study the issues seriously is simply silly. > Who are these 'non-thinking' people, Gary? This is exactly the kind of attitude that has prevented real democracy from emerging, that has > kept millions of people from playing a meaningful role in the conduct of their own societies' affairs. If you really believe that a mass of people can make any sort of decision, I suggest that you actually try it. I accept that all people need to be able to “play a meaningful role in the conduct of their own affairs,” but I do not think that extends to obtaining opinions on matters which do require specific expertise. If you read all the post (a chore I admit) you will see that I believe that group participation is good for determining “how we would like things to be,” or “give a set of workable options and their consequences, which do we prefer (or non, so look for more option.” If you think this is elitist, consider having the people in the hospital waiting rooms vote on how to perform your brain surgery and then make the surgeon conform to the “will of the majority”. > Somebody asked in an earlier posting > "what is wrong with democracy?" The answer is that we don't have any - all we have is pseudo-democracy, which has evolved for the > purpose that is implicit in Gary's thinking: to exclude the masses and let those who 'know best' make the decisions. There is *no* such purpose implicit in *my* thinking. You are correct that we have problems with the way our democracy is organized. A major problem that we have is that we get to vote on which of a set of unworkable proposals we want to implement. Having lawyers attempt to design systems of any sort with a purpose to get re-elected is not a good way to get workable systems. I keep hearing about becoming an informed citizen – has anybody tried lately? When a typical piece of legislation runs to several thousand pages, much of which makes modifications to other multi-thousand page documents, and which is written to obfuscate in the first place, becoming informed is a hopeless task. In my youth I believed that this was the problem with government – that the information load was overwhelming – so that better information systems (knowledge systems, if you will) were a part of the solution. I now know that the problems are *not* simply a matter of information overload. > If we are to have > anything approaching a just society, ALL of the people affected by decisions MUST be have the opportunity to be involved in the > decision making process. Democracy must be a learning process, with all of us learning from each other, not simply the 'non-thinking' > people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them. I agree. How many people in any volunteer organization actually participate? About 20% - 30% if the figures that keep cropping up are correct. What leads you to believe that this percentage will be different if we extend it to millions? We should make it possible for all of the people affected by decisions to have the opportunity to be involved in the decisions. The idea of “simply the 'non-thinking' people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them” is yours, not mine. I will continue to insist that we should leave it to those affected to decide whether to invest the resources in a bridge, a mine, a satellite, but I do not accept that this means that this same group should *design* that bridge, mine, or satellite. I have seen what happens when that job is tackled by an “elite” of college-trained engineers numbering in the hundreds of thousands – not a pretty site. Trying to accomplish this by letting everyone who wants to vote on the engineering required would never result in a project that works –it almost doesn’t now. The affected people *should* get more input than they do as to *whether* these projects are undertaken. As a final point, we have a very select group of people on this forum, with a relatively narrow set of goals (relative to the total set possible) and even with this “elite” and several years of time, we have not yet been able to agree even on what it is we are trying to accomplish, much less how to go about doing it. There is good work being done by a few individuals, but the democratic process hasn’t been having a lot of success at developing a system that works. Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C263A2.E7B44CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I believe that it makes sense for all affected people to decide, = for example, that it would be desirable to have food production be less centralized. Given that goal, multiple alternatives at various levels = could be examined from a technical / engineering perspective, and the resulting = possible approaches presented back to the people with a clear analysis of the = pros and cons and the issues involved. IBIS-like structures work for some of = this, but a significant part is the sort of discussion that says that the following = N elements of the proposed solutions have been discovered and considered important, what are the relative importances? Once discussion has = provided at least a partial ordering, the various approaches, and maybe some new = ones can be examined based on those relative importances. This is what we claim = we should do when designing systems for use by a specific audience, and I = see no reason why a similar approach won’t work with larger groups if we = can provide honest information.

 

Part of what happens today is that most proposals are already = polarized by the time we hear that there is even a discussion. We are then = presented with a single “solution” in terms of some proposed legislation. = The advocates say it is a great idea and that opponents are short sighted, stupid, rude, etc. = The opponents say it is a terrible idea and that advocates are short sighted, stupid, = rude, etc.

 

The use of various argumentation structures is being pursued, and = there is some real possibility for ways of presenting the elements of even = complex problems in such a way that they can be grasped by people who are not = experts in the specific area of the problem. If these are enhanced to support = the sort of partial ordering of concerns that allow for describing how various = sorts of trade-offs should be treated, I think it should be possible to allow = huge numbers of people to participate in the discussions in a meaningful way. Discussion needs to be transformed into the argumentation presentation periodically since it does appear to be difficult to do this at the time = of entry. One of the meta-questions that needs to be addressed continually = in such a system is “does the transformation into the argumentation system = capture accurately all of the points made in the original = discussion.

 

Some of the tools that Stafford Beer has proposed (http://www.staffordbeer.com/papers/Origins%20Team%20Syntegrity.pdf= ) provides ways for “working groups” to address issues with = all points of view getting expressed, and to avoid = polarization.

 

By using the input form all stakeholders to determine what = factors are important and what sorts of outcomes are desired, it may then be = possible to design the systems that will provide features that are maximally = satisfying.

 

Every such discussion needs to have a “none of the = above” selection.

 

In “The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress,” one of = Heinlein’s characters tosses out several ideas for the structuring of a new government. Among the = ideas that sound interesting are:

  • Have 2 legislative bodies. One can pass laws, = but only with a 2/3 majority. The second can repeal laws with only a 1/3 = minority. The logic is that any legislation that cannot win the approval of = 2/3 of those involved is likely not very good, and any legislation that is actively opposed by as little as 1/3 of those involved is also = likely not very good.
  • Have some representatives be able to be elected = by getting 10,000 people to approve him/her and the representative = would represent those 10,000 people.

 

One thing is clear to me – the most local solution that = works deserves a high degree of consideration. I can’t say that this is necessarily = the best, but the closer any system is to meeting the needs of all involved, the = better it is, and that is easier to do when the number involved is smaller = rather than larger. The more people are affected, the more likely it is that there = will have to be “special cases” to account for the more local = issues that arise.

 

Clearly, more people would participate if the barriers were not = so high. Along with the technology of information systems, we need to understand = and find ways to deals with such things as polarization of discussion. = Whenever we can succeed at getting all parties on the same side in pursuit of = improvements to the existing scene, we stand a chance of reaching solutions that do = the best possible job of meeting the needs of the people. Once the people take = sides against each other instead of against the problem, it gets very = difficult to make any progress towards a = solution.

 

 

Thanks,

 

Garold (Gary) L. = Johnson

<= span class=3DEmailStyle22> 

-----Original Message-----
From: = owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of John Turnbull
Sent: Tuesday, September = 24, 2002 3:24 AM
To: = ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org
Subject: Re: = [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality

 

I didn't mean to suggest that = group participation in brain surgery or engineering is a good idea - of course = it's not. But I've been back to your original posting, and in the section in = which you make this comment you appear to be talking about problem solving in general, society-wide terms, not specifics. If  I've got my wires = crossed here, I apologise.

I agree that very few people can presently be bothered to participate in anything at all, least of all politics. Why? Because the political = process is not something that people believe they have much (if any) influence = over, or because they are happy with the status quo, or (and this one always = baffles me) because they don't think that politics has any relevance to their lives. = A more general explanation would be that western society has become = increasingly atomised, with the result that we have lost sight of how interdependent = we really are.

The path to real democracy is to become a learning society, one in which = we strive to acknowledge and understand this interdependence. This is a = massive task, and goes much further than simply making a few alterations to the = current system of representative (pseudo-) democracy. You hit the nail on the = head when you say that "we get to vote on which of a set of unworkable = proposals we want to implement" - why shouldn't "we" be involved in = the design of those proposals from the outset?  I don't mean that = random people should be dragged off the street to draft a thousand-page piece = of legislation, but there are processes, such as citizens' juries (to give = just one example), that could be used to ensure that those affected by policy = (ie all of us) have a hand in designing it. With the desire and the = expertise, it can be done: masses of people are already making decisions about how = public money is spent across Brazil through the process of the Participative = Budget - and the leader of the party that implemented this looks set to be the = next president.

Regards,

John
World Wide Democracy = Network

Garold (Gary) L. Johnson wrote:

From: John = Turnbull<= /p>

> At the risk of joining this = thread too late, I feel I have to take issue with Gary when he says,

>> The idea, for example, that a million non-thinking people can arrive at = better solutions than a few

>>
very intelligent, thinking people who study the issues seriously is simply = silly. <= /p>

> Who are these 'non-thinking' people, Gary? This is exactly =
the kind of attitude that has prevented real democracy from emerging, =
that has
 
> =
kept millions of people from =
playing a meaningful role in the conduct of their own societies' =
affairs.<=
/pre>
If =
you really believe that a mass of people can make any sort of decision, =
I suggest that you actually try it. I accept that all people need to be =
able to “play <=
/pre>
a =
meaningful role in the conduct of their own affairs,” but I do not =
think that extends to obtaining opinions on matters which do require =
specific expertise. <=
/pre>
If =
you read all the post (a chore I admit) you will see that I believe that =
group participation is good for determining “how we would like =
things to be,” or “give a <=
/pre>
set =
of workable options and their consequences, which do we prefer (or non, =
so look for more option.” If you think this is elitist, consider =
having the people in the <=
/pre>
hospital waiting rooms vote on how to perform your =
brain surgery and then make the surgeon conform to the “will of =
the majority”.<=
/pre>
> =
Somebody asked in an earlier =
posting 
 
> =
"what is wrong with =
democracy?" The answer is that we don't have any - all we have is =
pseudo-democracy, which has evolved for the
 
> purpose that is implicit in =
Gary's thinking: to exclude the masses and let those who 'know best' =
make the decisions. =
<=
/pre>
There is *no* such purpose implicit in =
*my* thinking. You are correct that =
we have problems with the way our democracy <=
/pre>
is organized. A major problem that =
we have is that we get to vote on which of a set of unworkable proposals =
we want to <=
/pre>
implement. Having lawyers attempt =
to design systems of any sort with a purpose to get re-elected is not a =
good way to get <=
/pre>
workable =
systems.
 
I keep hearing about becoming an =
informed citizen – has anybody tried lately? When a typical piece =
of legislation runs to<=
/pre>
several thousand pages, much of =
which makes modifications to other multi-thousand page documents, and =
which is written to <=
/pre>
obfuscate in the first place, =
becoming informed is a hopeless task. In my youth I believed that this =
was the problem with <=
/pre>
government – that the =
information load was overwhelming – so that better information =
systems (knowledge systems, if you <=
/pre>
will) were a part of the solution. =
I now know that the problems are *not* simply a matter of =
information overload.
 
> If we are to have
 
> anything approaching a just =
society, ALL of the people affected by decisions MUST be have the =
opportunity to be involved in the
 
> decision making process. =
Democracy must be a learning process, with all of us learning from each =
other, not simply the 'non-thinking' 
 
> =
people being lectured at by =
those who 'know' what's good for them.<=
/pre>
I agree. =
How many people in any volunteer organization actually participate? =
About 20% - 30% if the figures that keep cropping up are correct. What =
leads you to believe <=
/pre>
that =
this percentage will be different if we extend it to millions? We should =
make it possible for all of the people affected by decisions to have the =
opportunity to be <=
/pre>
involved =
in the decisions.<=
/pre>
The idea =
of  “simply the 'non-thinking' =
people being lectured at by those who 'know' what's good for them” =
is yours, not mine.<=
/pre>
I =
will continue to insist that we should leave it to those affected to =
decide whether to invest the resources in a bridge, a mine, a satellite, =
but I do not accept that this<=
/pre>
means that this same group should *design* that bridge, mine, or =
satellite. I have seen what happens when that job is tackled by an =
“elite” of college-trained <=
/pre>
engineers numbering in the hundreds of thousands =
– not a pretty site. Trying to accomplish this by letting everyone =
who wants to vote on the engineering required <=
/pre>
would never result in a project that works –it =
almost doesn’t now. The affected people *should* get more input than they =
do as to *whether* these projects are =
<=
/pre>
undertaken.<=
/pre>
As a =
final point, we have a very select group of people on this forum, with a =
relatively narrow set of goals (relative to the total set possible) and =
even with this <=
/pre>
“elite” and several years of time, we =
have not yet been able to agree even on what it is we are trying to =
accomplish, much less how to go about doing it. There is =
<=
/pre>
good =
work being done by a few individuals, but the democratic process =
hasn’t been having a lot of success at developing a system that =
works.<=
/pre>

Thanks,<= /p>

Garold (Gary) L. Johnson <= /p>

 <= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C263A2.E7B44CC0-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 11:00:27 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id CF34357008; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.79]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5813356FF9 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:00:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.38.57]) by cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4617); Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:17:31 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:18:36 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <3D8B3381.43EC2DB4@sympatico.ca> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 24 Sep 2002 18:17:31.0395 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5C37530:01C263F6] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I read the review and I notice I was getting quite agitated about it. Reviewers often state their agenda and not the author's, so I don't want to make too much of it at that point. My concern is over what seems to be the pursuit of a false dichotomy. I don't think relativists are committed to the blank slate idea any more than biological determinists are commited to not being masters of their own selves. The pitfall of biological determinism is that it is used to justify inequity (a social concept) using what are potentially "unreal" distinctions (e.g., intelligence, apparently another social construction). Furthermore, there is a discussion of some modern work (e.g, AI) as if it has succeeded! So far, I don't believe there is anything in biology that yet accounts for our experience as human beings and our awareness of self and identity. I am not saying that it can't, I'm saying that it hasn't. (There is great material in David Berlinski's "The Advent of the Algorithm" that is keenly appropriate in this context.) In any case, I recommend Ian Hackings "The Social Construction of What?" as an appropriate balancing analysis. That made me uncomfortable too, and I think that was valuable in that I had to stop and think. -- Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Henry K van Eyken Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 07:41 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. I haven't been able to follow some of the recent threads, but I do believe the following is elevant: http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1337125 This is The Economist's review of Steven Pinker's latest, "The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature" and the insights it offers may do much to bring our understanding of ourselves as human beings closer to the frontiers of scientific thinking. I shall be obtaining a copy to read it myself - leaving me even less time - because I sense that it may be exceedingly relevant to such matters of human community as democracy, etc. Henry Henry Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > Nietzsche's version of karma (the eternal recurrence) is delightfully non > religious. > > If we reincarnated based on past performance that would perhaps make us > behave well, if we believed it, if we behaved rationally, but if we knew > this was our one and only life? If we knew every moment was unrepeatable? > How well ought we to behave then? > > -g > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 6:50 PM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. > > V.S.Uren@open.ac.uk wrote: > > > > Re: I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a > > rationalization > > > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > > > a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > > > as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > > > > This sounds like a notion I call "practical karma"... > > > Yes. A belief in reincarnation is a *powerful* motivation for doing > good. I look at it this way: > > It's not that I'm going to come back as a llama or an earthworm, > or something. > > It's not even that I'm going to come back as some high-born or > low-born person. > > It's that I'm going to come back to THIS world -- and I'm going > to have live in the garden of eden (or cesspool) I create. > > Talk about incentive to take care of the environment... > > But those are quasi-religious notions. At the very least, they > depend on a particular belief system. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 11:26:55 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id CB43D5700C; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B8C257007 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 91432 invoked from network); 24 Sep 2002 18:44:17 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (192.168.45.236) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 24 Sep 2002 18:44:17 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 11:45:19 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org It doesn't take much in the way of personal experience to realize that there are some behaviors that spring from sources other than conscious decisions or intentions. Whether these forces are considered biological, karmic, due to past lives, or from early training is not terribly relevant. What is important is to recognize when behavior is not the result of our decisions as to how we choose to act and then to decide whether to take steps to make changes. The recognition that there are differences between individuals, and that there may be features that some groups have in common should serve only as a start to recognize how we operate in our environment, not to support any sort of class distinction. I have no talent for music, but I do have some skill with computers. Does this make me *better* than a musician? Depends on the purpose. If what you want is a musical performance, I recommend a musician. If you want software, I may well be a better bet. Should more people be educated in computers than in music because computer science is *better* than music? Nonsense. Forcing a person with musical talent to go into computers instead is foolish. The pros and cons of a career do include questions of the value placed on it by society. Currently the society will support a lot more computer capable people than musicians. With nearly all art, the very good make far more than the merely competent. This is true in computers and engineering as well, but the average computer nerd will do better monetarily than the average artist just because we can employ more computer nerds than artists. One of the issues of personal improvement is that we all tend to undervalue what we do well and to overvalue what doesn't come easily. The self-help material is replete with success stories of people who have found ways to earn a living by doing what they love and are good at rather than doing what they hate and consider to be work (a 4-letter word). Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Dennis E. Hamilton Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2002 11:19 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. I read the review and I notice I was getting quite agitated about it. Reviewers often state their agenda and not the author's, so I don't want to make too much of it at that point. My concern is over what seems to be the pursuit of a false dichotomy. I don't think relativists are committed to the blank slate idea any more than biological determinists are commited to not being masters of their own selves. The pitfall of biological determinism is that it is used to justify inequity (a social concept) using what are potentially "unreal" distinctions (e.g., intelligence, apparently another social construction). Furthermore, there is a discussion of some modern work (e.g, AI) as if it has succeeded! So far, I don't believe there is anything in biology that yet accounts for our experience as human beings and our awareness of self and identity. I am not saying that it can't, I'm saying that it hasn't. (There is great material in David Berlinski's "The Advent of the Algorithm" that is keenly appropriate in this context.) In any case, I recommend Ian Hackings "The Social Construction of What?" as an appropriate balancing analysis. That made me uncomfortable too, and I think that was valuable in that I had to stop and think. -- Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Henry K van Eyken Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 07:41 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. I haven't been able to follow some of the recent threads, but I do believe the following is elevant: http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1337125 This is The Economist's review of Steven Pinker's latest, "The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature" and the insights it offers may do much to bring our understanding of ourselves as human beings closer to the frontiers of scientific thinking. I shall be obtaining a copy to read it myself - leaving me even less time - because I sense that it may be exceedingly relevant to such matters of human community as democracy, etc. Henry Henry Graham Stalker-Wilde wrote: > Nietzsche's version of karma (the eternal recurrence) is delightfully non > religious. > > If we reincarnated based on past performance that would perhaps make us > behave well, if we believed it, if we behaved rationally, but if we knew > this was our one and only life? If we knew every moment was unrepeatable? > How well ought we to behave then? > > -g > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 6:50 PM > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] An approach to a simpler truth. > > V.S.Uren@open.ac.uk wrote: > > > > Re: I've long been intrigued by the notion of finding a > > rationalization > > > for doing good to others that *wasn't* based on religion. Such > > > a thing could go a long way to reduce religious prejudice, as well > > > as the worst of captialism. Equilibrium theory holds promise... > > > > > This sounds like a notion I call "practical karma"... > > > Yes. A belief in reincarnation is a *powerful* motivation for doing > good. I look at it this way: > > It's not that I'm going to come back as a llama or an earthworm, > or something. > > It's not even that I'm going to come back as some high-born or > low-born person. > > It's that I'm going to come back to THIS world -- and I'm going > to have live in the garden of eden (or cesspool) I create. > > Talk about incentive to take care of the environment... > > But those are quasi-religious notions. At the very least, they > depend on a particular belief system. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 14:14:50 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B919B56FF9; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.171]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B432F56FF7 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 14:14:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1230.charmander.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.78.206] helo=vaio) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17txIi-0001Td-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:33:00 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01c26411$97d474e0$ce4e87d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] World Wide Outline Tool Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:29:51 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff), I've been playing with this tool a little. website: http://www.adm21.net Your website makes some bold claims for it. "You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and outliner program on Earth..." "This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's and files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming in your life ..." "ADM is a Godsend for lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..." Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a proprietary file format. Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file format? Regards, -- Peter From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 19:12:00 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EF26756FF8; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13709.mail.yahoo.com (web13709.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.251]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A6B2956FF7 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020925023018.57274.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [218.145.63.23] by web13709.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:30:18 PDT Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:30:18 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] World Wide Outline Tool To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <000d01c26411$97d474e0$ce4e87d9@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1594321396-1032921018=:56497" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1594321396-1032921018=:56497 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Peter, Thanks for the feedback below. My responses: 1. I hope you downloaded ADM from www.worldwideoutline.net, not from the commercial website at www.adm21.net , as the latter does not access or support the World Wide Outline. 2. We are about to begin coding version 2.0 of ADM, which will be re-engineered around the World Wide Outline and will include many advanced data management tools. We will be considering issues such as use of xml. Thanks again for your feedback, and please let us know what you think of the world wide outline demos. Cordially, Eric Peter Jones wrote: Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff), I've been playing with this tool a little. website: http://www.adm21.net Your website makes some bold claims for it. "You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and outliner program on Earth..." "This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's and files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming in your life ..." "ADM is a Godsend for lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..." Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a proprietary file format. Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file format? Regards, -- Peter Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1594321396-1032921018=:56497 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the feedback below.  My responses:

1. I hope you downloaded ADM from www.worldwideoutline.net,

not from the commercial website at www.adm21.net  , as the latter does not access or support the World Wide Outline. 

2. We are about to begin coding version 2.0 of ADM, which will be re-engineered around the World Wide Outline and will include many advanced data management tools.  We will be considering issues such as use of xml.

Thanks again for your feedback, and please let us know what you think of the world wide outline demos.

Cordially, Eric

 Peter Jones wrote:

Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff),

I've been playing with this tool a little.
website: http://www.adm21.net
Your website makes some bold claims for it.
"You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and
outliner program on Earth..."
"This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's and
files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming in
your life ..."
"ADM is a Godsend for lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..."

Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a
proprietary file format.
Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file format?

Regards,
--
Peter



Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1594321396-1032921018=:56497-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 19:15:17 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id ACEC356FF9; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13704.mail.yahoo.com (web13704.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.137]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4605556FF8 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:15:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020925023335.98886.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [218.145.63.23] by web13704.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:33:35 PDT Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 19:33:35 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Corrected address for : World Wide Outline Tool To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <20020925023018.57274.qmail@web13709.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-453066206-1032921215=:98754" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-453066206-1032921215=:98754 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi again Peter, Sorry but the wwo address in the preceeding email was mistyped. The correct url is: www.worldwideoutline.net Eric P.S. We will be looking not only at xml but at topic maps and allied technologies for possible whole or partial inclusion in future ADM releases. ADM Staff wrote: Hi Peter, Thanks for the feedback below. My responses: 1. I hope you downloaded ADM from www.worldwideoutline.net, not from the commercial website at www.adm21.net , as the latter does not access or support the World Wide Outline. 2. We are about to begin coding version 2.0 of ADM, which will be re-engineered around the World Wide Outline and will include many advanced data management tools. We will be considering issues such as use of xml. Thanks again for your feedback, and please let us know what you think of the world wide outline demos. Cordially, Eric Peter Jones wrote: Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff), I've been playing with this tool a little. website: http://www.adm21.net Your website makes some bold claims for it. "You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and outliner program on Earth..." "This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's and files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming in your life ..." "ADM is a Godsend for lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..." Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a proprietary file format. Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file format? Regards, -- Peter Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-453066206-1032921215=:98754 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi again Peter,

Sorry but the wwo address in the preceeding email was mistyped.

The correct url is:

www.worldwideoutline.net 

Eric P.S. We will be looking not only at xml but at topic maps and allied technologies for possible whole or partial inclusion in future ADM releases.

 ADM Staff wrote:

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the feedback below.  My responses:

1. I hope you downloaded ADM from www.worldwideoutline.net,

not from the commercial website at www.adm21.net  , as the latter does not access or support the World Wide Outline. 

2. We are about to begin coding version 2.0 of ADM, which will be re-engineered around the World Wide Outline and will include many advanced data management tools.  We will be considering issues such as use of xml.

Thanks again for your feedback, and please let us know what you think of the world wide outline demos.

Cordially, Eric

 Peter Jones wrote:

Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff),

I've been playing with this tool a little.
website: http://www.adm21.net
Your website makes some bold claims for it.
"You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and
outliner program on Earth..."
"This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's and
files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming in
your life ..."
"ADM is a Godsend for lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..."

Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a
proprietary file format.
Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file format?

Regards,
--
Peter



Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!


Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-453066206-1032921215=:98754-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 21:53:41 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id F2B5856FF9; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13703.mail.yahoo.com (web13703.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.136]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B26C456FF8 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 21:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020925051158.6512.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [211.217.226.225] by web13703.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:11:58 PDT Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2002 22:11:58 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <000d01c26411$97d474e0$ce4e87d9@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1443780164-1032930718=:6433" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1443780164-1032930718=:6433 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi there, In glancing again at your inquiry below, I suddently wondered whether you were aware that you can instantly link *any* file in any format to any adm topic via drag-and-drop or icon or menu item? (Such linked files open when activated in their native applications.) Cordially, Eric Peter Jones wrote: Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff), I've been playing with this tool a little. website: http://www.adm21.net Your website makes some bold claims for it. "You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and outliner program on Earth..." "This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's and files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming in your life ..." "ADM is a Godsend for lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..." Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a proprietary file format. Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file format? Regards, -- Peter Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1443780164-1032930718=:6433 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi there,

In glancing again at your inquiry below, I suddently wondered whether you were aware that you can instantly link *any* file in any format to any adm topic via drag-and-drop or icon or menu item?  (Such linked files open when activated in their native applications.)

Cordially, Eric

 Peter Jones wrote:

Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff),

I've been playing with this tool a little.
website: http://www.adm21.net
Your website makes some bold claims for it.
"You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and
outliner program on Earth..."
"This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's and
files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming in
your life ..."
"ADM is a Godsend for lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..."

Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a
proprietary file format.
Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file format?

Regards,
--
Peter



Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1443780164-1032930718=:6433-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Sep 24 23:59:40 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A53D256FF9; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:59:39 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from txsmtp03.texas.rr.com (smtp3.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.231]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 23F6656FF8 for ; Tue, 24 Sep 2002 23:59:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux (cs662583-231.satx.rr.com [66.25.83.231]) by txsmtp03.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8P7HFNL028042 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 03:17:16 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Matthew Schneider To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] PurpleSlurple Revisited Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 02:18:31 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200209250218.31082.matsch@sasites.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Finally I've fixed the issue with relative links - they now work. Also, I've added a (currently) limited capability to expand/collapse the = level=20 of detail on a page - ala Augment (sorta). For the test case I refer you once again to eekim's "An Introduction to=20 Purple":=20 http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php?collapse=3Dno&theurl=3Dhttp://w= ww.eekim.com/software/purple/purple.html Comments appreciated. Best regards, Matthew A. Schneider P.S. Would it be more appropriate to post PurpleSlurple announcements to=20 ba-ohs? From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 01:53:23 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7C72256FF9; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.77]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 27D0756FF8 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 01:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.38.57]) by cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Wed, 25 Sep 2002 02:10:28 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] PurpleSlurple Revisited Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 02:11:34 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <200209250218.31082.matsch@sasites.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2002 09:10:28.0570 (UTC) FILETIME=[643F93A0:01C26473] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org The expand / collapse is interesting. However, something is not working properly. Not at 2002-09-25-02:07 -0700 (pdt). Follow the link you provided below and click on the 1A link at the end of the first body paragraph. It does not go to the right place. If you go to the original page and use the link on 1A, it works. The same problem arises with link (02) adjacent to the 1A link. It would appear that the relative link fix is incomplete. -- Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Matthew Schneider Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 00:19 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] PurpleSlurple Revisited Finally I've fixed the issue with relative links - they now work. Also, I've added a (currently) limited capability to expand/collapse the level of detail on a page - ala Augment (sorta). For the test case I refer you once again to eekim's "An Introduction to Purple": http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php?collapse=no&theurl=http://www.eeki m.com/software/purple/purple.html Comments appreciated. Best regards, Matthew A. Schneider P.S. Would it be more appropriate to post PurpleSlurple announcements to ba-ohs? From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 06:06:45 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4E17956FFA; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E372856FF9 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H2Z00MXOX9N1R@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:24:49 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL: Socialist Agenda? In-reply-to: To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <001701c26496$ec79ea40$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org eWEEK: What's your stance on the GPL (GNU General Public License for open source software)? (James) Gosling: There are all of these open-source licenses out there. They pretty much all have their own political agenda. Sun has it's own. The one we use for Java is really about compatibility. The GPL one is, I find, rather odd because it has this string socialist agenda that basically says intellectual property is bad. I think it's perfectly fine for people to say, "I want to give my stuff away for free." When it turns into, "Nobody else should be able to make profit off of intellectual property," I start to have a hard time with it. And the core of my hard time with it is it's sort of like a physics argument about conservation of energy. It takes an awful lot of energy to produce software. Somehow or other that has to be matched. The energy that comes out as software, something's got to go in-if only to pay the salaries of the people who are working on the software. And you can have all kinds of indirect models and all the rest of it, but somehow or other it has to happen. Thermal dynamics and energy conservation laws have been absolutely strong, and they're that way in economics as well. And the GPL version of the universe, where everything is free and essentially no software engineer can get a job doing software engineering because there's no money in software engineering, I sort of have a hard time with. I have a certain sympathy about it because I think that there are ways in which the software industry gets really out of control. And intellectual property can be abused, but there's a midpoint somewhere in there that is much more balanced. http://www.eweek.com/print_article/0,3668,a=31450,00.asp -jtm From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 06:23:25 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BF8A956FFA; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:23:24 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (smtp2.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.230]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3826956FF9 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux (cs662583-231.satx.rr.com [66.25.83.231]) by txsmtp02.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8PDfHno016298 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 09:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Matthew Schneider To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] PurpleSlurple Revisited - Again Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 08:42:17 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200209250842.17449.matsch@sasites.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Wednesday 25 September 2002 04:11, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: > The expand / collapse is interesting. > > However, something is not working properly. Not at 2002-09-25-02:07 -0= 700 > (pdt). > > Follow the link you provided below and click on the 1A link at the end = of > the first body paragraph. It does not go to the right place. If you g= o to > the original page and use the link on 1A, it works. The same problem > arises with link (02) adjacent to the 1A link. It would appear that th= e > relative link fix is incomplete. Thanks Dennis. Try these URLs (below), or any other of your choosing here= :=20 http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php WARNING: after promising Dennis I would test more thoroughly - I have not= =2E=20 However, I think I have nailed it this time. Matt eekim:=20 http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php?collapse=3Dno&theurl=3Dhttp://w= ww.eekim.com/software/purple/purple.html ohs: =20 http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php?theurl=3Dhttp://www.bootstrap.o= rg/ohs/index.jsp mozilla.org=20 http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php?collapse=3Dyes&theurl=3Dhttp://= www.mozilla.org/projects/phoenix/phoenix-release-notes.html nationalgeographic http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php?theurl=3Dhttp://news.nationalge= ographic.com/news/2002/09/0924_020924_dnachimp.html From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 07:09:32 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 500B956FF9; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:09:32 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp.uiah.fi (artisti.uiah.fi [128.214.123.2]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 83FD656FF8 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 07:09:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mlab-lume-dyn-219 ([128.214.134.219] helo=uiah.fi) by smtp.uiah.fi with esmtp (Exim 4.10) id 17uD8g-00031T-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:27:42 +0300 Message-ID: <3D91C7ED.9050006@uiah.fi> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 17:27:57 +0300 From: Teemu Leinonen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X; en-US; rv:1.1b) Gecko/20020722 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL: Socialist Agenda? References: <001701c26496$ec79ea40$180ec53f@collaboratory> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org John Maloney wrote: > (James) Gosling: ... The GPL one is, I > find, rather odd because it has this string socialist agenda that > basically says intellectual property is bad. Appeal to Authority - Improper appeal to authority. An example is when a Nobel laureate in chemistry writes an opinion about a subject she is not an expert such as political science and people then cite him as an authority about political science believing that being considered and expert in one area means they are knowledgeable about others. From Howard Kahane (1976): Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric (quoted earlier to this mailing list by John Maloney) - Teemu ____________________________ Teemu Leinonen http://www.uiah.fi/~tleinone/ Office: + 358 9 756 30 296 GSM: +358 50 351 6796 Media Lab, UIAH Helsinki http://www.mlab.uiah.fi Future Learning Environment 3 http://fle3.uiah.fi From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 10:31:30 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C751156FF8; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:31:29 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4607556FF3 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H2Z00MOUXYT1G@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:40:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 06:39:55 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Got a Hammer? In-reply-to: <4.2.2.20020924101402.025e9c60@thinkalong.com> To: UNREV Message-id: <001a01c26499$08c9ec20$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org "Unless you do very little work online, the concept of weaving all of your activity into a single web page couldn't be more misguided - from an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint." http://www.ozzie.net/blog/stories/2002/09/20/ifAllThatYouHaveIsAHammerEv erythingLooksLikeABrowser.html IMO, the WWW is simply not a collaborative medium. It is hard to imagine shoehorning all manner of human interaction into a web page.(?) It just doesn't make sense. Rather, a rich -intermodal- collaborative Internet client is a far more natural, social and human (humane?) approach. Developers targeting the WWW for collaboration are chasing the dragon. Considering the 'browser' as the least common denominator for seamless, ad hoc, global collaboration and community is also foolhardy. -jtm From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 10:55:11 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1A87556FF3; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tisch.mail.mindspring.net (tisch.mail.mindspring.net [207.69.200.157]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6CE5E56FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 10:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-11200bk.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.32.1.116] helo=gmob) by tisch.mail.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17uGf3-0003xI-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:13:21 -0400 From: "Graham Stalker-Wilde" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Got a Hammer? Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:13:09 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 In-Reply-To: <001a01c26499$08c9ec20$180ec53f@collaboratory> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of John Maloney Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 9:40 AM To: UNREV Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Got a Hammer? Great article "Why hasn't fax died off? In part because sometimes it's more natural to visualize something, to circle and scribble in the margin, and send it back. Paper, whiteboards, blackboards, napkins, tablets: scribbling is very "touch" oriented; it's a very human thing, and it's a great UI." scribbling rocks. I program on gigahertz machines with far too much RAM to make any difference, using all kinds of nifty editors, middleware etc, but I keep a large blotter and a pencil beside me - and that's where I think. -graham (who still finds that when all he has is a hammer everything looks like a baby seal) "Unless you do very little work online, the concept of weaving all of your activity into a single web page couldn't be more misguided - from an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint." http://www.ozzie.net/blog/stories/2002/09/20/ifAllThatYouHaveIsAHammerEv erythingLooksLikeABrowser.html IMO, the WWW is simply not a collaborative medium. It is hard to imagine shoehorning all manner of human interaction into a web page.(?) It just doesn't make sense. Rather, a rich -intermodal- collaborative Internet client is a far more natural, social and human (humane?) approach. Developers targeting the WWW for collaboration are chasing the dragon. Considering the 'browser' as the least common denominator for seamless, ad hoc, global collaboration and community is also foolhardy. -jtm From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 12:24:20 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2390B56FF3; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F9F356FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 12:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-229.gacked.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.240.229] helo=vaio) by cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17uI3K-0003uO-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:42:30 +0100 Message-ID: <002601c264cb$5263b500$e5f0193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Criminal Spam Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:39:53 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org All, It appears that someone is forging my email address in mail headers on emails that are designed to attack systems. I know Dr. Prueitt had this problem a while back. Does anyone know what to do about it short of changing to another mail domain? In the meantime I'm contacting my ISP. Cheers, -- Peter From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 13:27:05 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B89ED56FF3; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:27:04 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.77]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 354DC56FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.38.57]) by cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:44:10 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Criminal Spam Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 13:45:16 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <002601c264cb$5263b500$e5f0193e@vaio> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2002 20:44:10.0343 (UTC) FILETIME=[4CC21F70:01C264D4] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Some people (one or more) who have ba-unrev-talk in their address books are infected by Klez.H. I have received a small number that pretend to be sent from the list (but they really aren't). One behavior of Klez.H is that it uses the available address book to propogate and it also uses the address book to falsify the origin of the infected messages that it creates. So, someone who has Peter Jones in their address book and also has an address for ba-unrev-talk should look to see whether there is the possibility of a Klez.H infestation. Peter, your ISP probably cannot prevent the forgeries, because the mail probably didn't actually go through their system. Changing your email account doesn't really alter the situation. The problem involves your entry in someone else's address book! At the same time, it is prudent to take the appropriate precautions to confirm that your system is not infested. There are tools for this at a number of antivirus sites, including http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.removal.tool.html -- orcmid ------------------ Dennis E. Hamilton http://NuovoDoc.com/ mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org tel. +1-206-932-6970 cell +1-206-779-9430 The Miser Project: http://miser-theory.info/ AIIM DMware: http://DMware.info/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Peter Jones Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 12:40 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Criminal Spam All, It appears that someone is forging my email address in mail headers on emails that are designed to attack systems. I know Dr. Prueitt had this problem a while back. Does anyone know what to do about it short of changing to another mail domain? In the meantime I'm contacting my ISP. Cheers, -- Peter From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 14:05:24 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 531C256FF9; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13707.mail.yahoo.com (web13707.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.140]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EE8AD56FF3 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020925212342.40655.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.73.5.197] by web13707.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:23:42 PDT Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:23:42 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Got a Hammer? To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <001a01c26499$08c9ec20$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1552583611-1032989022=:39848" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1552583611-1032989022=:39848 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Agreed/ Eric John Maloney wrote: "Unless you do very little work online, the concept of weaving all of your activity into a single web page couldn't be more misguided - from an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint." http://www.ozzie.net/blog/stories/2002/09/20/ifAllThatYouHaveIsAHammerEv erythingLooksLikeABrowser.html IMO, the WWW is simply not a collaborative medium. It is hard to imagine shoehorning all manner of human interaction into a web page.(?) It just doesn't make sense. Rather, a rich -intermodal- collaborative Internet client is a far more natural, social and human (humane?) approach. Developers targeting the WWW for collaboration are chasing the dragon. Considering the 'browser' as the least common denominator for seamless, ad hoc, global collaboration and community is also foolhardy. -jtm Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1552583611-1032989022=:39848 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Agreed/

Eric

 John Maloney wrote:


"Unless you do very little work online, the concept of weaving all of
your activity into a single web page couldn't be more misguided - from
an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint."

http://www.ozzie.net/blog/stories/2002/09/20/ifAllThatYouHaveIsAHammerEv
erythingLooksLikeABrowser.html

IMO, the WWW is simply not a collaborative medium. It is hard to imagine
shoehorning all manner of human interaction into a web page.(?) It just
doesn't make sense. Rather, a rich -intermodal- collaborative Internet
client is a far more natural, social and human (humane?) approach.

Developers targeting the WWW for collaboration are chasing the dragon.

Considering the 'browser' as the least common denominator for seamless,
ad hoc, global collaboration and community is also foolhardy.

-jtm


Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1552583611-1032989022=:39848-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 14:23:00 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1DE6C56FF8; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.172]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0ACAC56FF3 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-942.sponger.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.219.174] helo=vaio) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17uJu9-00023q-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:41:10 +0100 Message-ID: <002501c264db$e56aeac0$aedb193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <20020925051158.6512.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:35:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Hi Eric. Yes, I'm aware. Wishlist: 1) I want to be able to put a link to another admtopic in an admtopic. Couldn't see any way to do that. 2) Be able to choose the application that opens the file formats on a per file basis. I.e. I might have two html files, but I might want to have one of them always open in Notepad. 3) Ability to change the fonts would go along way towards improving the interface. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "ADM Staff" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 6:11 AM Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry > > Hi there, > In glancing again at your inquiry below, I suddently wondered whether you were aware that you can instantly link *any* file in any format to any adm topic via drag-and-drop or icon or menu item? (Such linked files open when activated in their native applications.) > Cordially, Eric > Peter Jones > wrote: Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff), > > I've been playing with this tool a little. > website: http://www.adm21.net > Your website makes some bold claims for it. > "You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and > outliner program on Earth..." > "This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's and > files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming in > your life ..." > "ADM is a Godsend for lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..." > > Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a > proprietary file format. > Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file format? > > Regards, > -- > Peter > > > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 14:29:32 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E5D7756FF8; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.176]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE3AC56FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:29:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-942.sponger.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.219.174] helo=vaio) by cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17uK0T-0001Sv-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:47:41 +0100 Message-ID: <002b01c264dc$d0164ba0$aedb193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Criminal Spam Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:45:05 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Aha! Thanks Dennis. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 9:45 PM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Criminal Spam > Some people (one or more) who have ba-unrev-talk in their address books are > infected by Klez.H. I have received a small number that pretend to be sent > from the list (but they really aren't). > > One behavior of Klez.H is that it uses the available address book to > propogate and it also uses the address book to falsify the origin of the > infected messages that it creates. > > So, someone who has Peter Jones in their address book and also has an > address for ba-unrev-talk should look to see whether there is the > possibility of a Klez.H infestation. > > Peter, your ISP probably cannot prevent the forgeries, because the mail > probably didn't actually go through their system. Changing your email > account doesn't really alter the situation. The problem involves your entry > in someone else's address book! > > At the same time, it is prudent to take the appropriate precautions to > confirm that your system is not infested. There are tools for this at a > number of antivirus sites, including > > http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.removal.tool.html > > -- orcmid > > ------------------ > Dennis E. Hamilton > http://NuovoDoc.com/ > mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org > tel. +1-206-932-6970 > cell +1-206-779-9430 > The Miser Project: http://miser-theory.info/ > AIIM DMware: http://DMware.info/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Peter Jones > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 12:40 > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Criminal Spam > > > All, > > It appears that someone is forging my email address in mail headers on > emails > that are designed to attack systems. > I know Dr. Prueitt had this problem a while back. Does anyone know what to > do > about it short of changing to another mail domain? > In the meantime I'm contacting my ISP. > > Cheers, > -- > Peter > > > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 14:31:16 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 508C456FF8; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.chariot.net.au (mail.chariot.net.au [203.87.95.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6815056FF3 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:31:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steves-imac.local. (ppp-159.cust203-87-116.ghr.chariot.net.au [203.87.116.159]) by mail.chariot.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB79180176 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:19:32 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 07:19:33 +0930 Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) From: stephen white To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <002501c264db$e56aeac0$aedb193e@vaio> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Thursday, September 26, 2002, at 07:05 AM, Peter Jones wrote: > 3) Ability to change the fonts would go along way towards improving the > interface. 4) Screenshots on web site. 5) Mac OS X version -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 14:32:45 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 36A9B56FF9; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:32:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC01A56FF8 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06227 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8PLowi28529 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D923015.73104655@sun.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:52:22 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL: Socialist Agenda? References: <001701c26496$ec79ea40$180ec53f@collaboratory> <3D91C7ED.9050006@uiah.fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Teemu Leinonen wrote: > John Maloney wrote: > > (James) Gosling: ... The GPL one is, I > > find, rather odd because it has this string socialist agenda that > > basically says intellectual property is bad. > > Appeal to Authority - Improper appeal to authority. On the contrary. Were the post to have said, "Gosling said so, therefore it must be true", *that* would be an improper appeal to authority. In this post, however, Gosling was *cited*, and his reasoning was given. I find it persuasive. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 14:37:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 857D756FF9; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 30E3356FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09642 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8PLu8i29719 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D92314B.B12E0D6E@sun.com> Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:57:32 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] PurpleSlurple Revisited References: <200209250218.31082.matsch@sasites.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Drat. I wish I had known you were having problems with relative references. I have some modules I could have sent you that might have helped. Matthew Schneider wrote: > Finally I've fixed the issue with relative links - they now work. > > Also, I've added a (currently) limited capability to expand/collapse the level > of detail on a page - ala Augment (sorta). > > For the test case I refer you once again to eekim's "An Introduction to > Purple": > http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/potf.php?collapse=no&theurl=http://www.eekim.com/software/purple/purple.html > > Comments appreciated. > > Best regards, > > Matthew A. Schneider > > P.S. Would it be more appropriate to post PurpleSlurple announcements to > ba-ohs? From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 14:46:18 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6AA6056FF3; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.172]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E5BC56FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 14:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-942.sponger.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.219.174] helo=vaio) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17uKGk-0000Rd-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:04:31 +0100 Message-ID: <003d01c264df$289a9860$aedb193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Got a Hammer? Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 23:01:49 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Scribbling is very effective for augmenting thinking short term. I'm not sure that it's the best way for, say, Enron to avoid debacles in the future though. Or is it? Maybe that's where they went wrong? The problem with my scribbles is that a few weeks afterwards they simply look like indecipherable hieroglyphs. Very hard to construct a DKR with. -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Graham Stalker-Wilde" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 7:13 PM Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Got a Hammer? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of John Maloney > Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 9:40 AM > To: UNREV > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Got a Hammer? > Great article > > "Why hasn't fax died off? In part because sometimes it's more natural to > visualize something, to circle and scribble in the margin, and send it back. > Paper, whiteboards, blackboards, napkins, tablets: scribbling is very > "touch" oriented; it's a very human thing, and it's a great UI." > > scribbling rocks. I program on gigahertz machines with far too much RAM to > make any difference, using all kinds of nifty editors, middleware etc, but I > keep a large blotter and a pencil beside me - and that's where I think. > > -graham (who still finds that when all he has is a hammer everything looks > like a baby seal) > > > "Unless you do very little work online, the concept of weaving all of > your activity into a single web page couldn't be more misguided - from > an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint." > > http://www.ozzie.net/blog/stories/2002/09/20/ifAllThatYouHaveIsAHammerEv > erythingLooksLikeABrowser.html > > IMO, the WWW is simply not a collaborative medium. It is hard to imagine > shoehorning all manner of human interaction into a web page.(?) It just > doesn't make sense. Rather, a rich -intermodal- collaborative Internet > client is a far more natural, social and human (humane?) approach. > > Developers targeting the WWW for collaboration are chasing the dragon. > > Considering the 'browser' as the least common denominator for seamless, > ad hoc, global collaboration and community is also foolhardy. > > -jtm > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 15:21:48 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 68D4356FF3; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 101E656FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H30007EBMYQ0D@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:40:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:39:50 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL: Socialist Agenda? In-reply-to: <3D923015.73104655@sun.com> To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <000c01c264e4$759b5370$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Eric - Thanks for the post. You're right, of course. My notion was to challenge/refute/dialogue, not appeal. -jtm -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 2:52 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL: Socialist Agenda? Teemu Leinonen wrote: > John Maloney wrote: > > (James) Gosling: ... The GPL one is, I > > find, rather odd because it has this string socialist agenda that > > basically says intellectual property is bad. > > Appeal to Authority - Improper appeal to authority. On the contrary. Were the post to have said, "Gosling said so, therefore it must be true", *that* would be an improper appeal to authority. In this post, however, Gosling was *cited*, and his reasoning was given. I find it persuasive. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 15:46:34 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 814B156FF3; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.79]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1856556FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 15:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.38.57]) by cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4617); Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:03:39 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL: Socialist Agenda? Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 16:04:45 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3D923015.73104655@sun.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 25 Sep 2002 23:03:39.0752 (UTC) FILETIME=[C9509680:01C264E7] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I think the comment was on Maloney's appeal to authority (Gosling) in forwarding the snippet he did. I have never before heard the GPL referred to as part of a socialist agenda, by the way. That attribution is no more appropriate to the Free Software Foundation than assuming they have a libertarian agenda (though I would find the latter more fitting). And I don't consider either you, Maloney or Gosling to be political scientists, but would be happy to learn the degree to which that is mistaken. IANAPS, of course. Side comment: I don't even believe that it is a Socialist position that intellectual property is bad. It would be more likely, from an extreme (i.e., not universal as far as I know) socialist view that labor is the only true source of value (as opposed to capital and material resources), that intellectual property belongs to the creators and not those who "exploit" them. Lots of socialist states are signatories to international copyright conventions and those versions are very protective of the rights of authors. Communist models are certainly not averse to intellectual property, so long it is the property of the state. So I actually can't figure out where that particular piece of sloganeering comes from. Do you have any insight on that? The GPL is based on intellectual property and the exclusive rights of authors to control the disposition of their works, the subdivision of those rights, etc. Like it or not (I prefer BSD-style open-source myself), it doesn't do anything beyond what current copyright law already grants as the exclusive rights of authors. It is commercial software firms and other holders of intellectual property that want even more exclusive rights (clickthru-licensing, no reverse engineering, no publishing of benchmark results, no critical review (!! -- the whole point of fair-use doctrine in the context of the First Ammendment), no liability, the right to penetrate your system and remove their software, the right to attack your system with no liability, etc.). What political persuasion would you label that as? -- Dennis PS: Wow, I didn't know there was so much heat for me on this topic. Simmer down, Dennis, you're blowing your pretense as a dispassionate observer (?) ... -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 14:52 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL: Socialist Agenda? Teemu Leinonen wrote: > John Maloney wrote: > > (James) Gosling: ... The GPL one is, I > > find, rather odd because it has this string socialist agenda that > > basically says intellectual property is bad. > > Appeal to Authority - Improper appeal to authority. On the contrary. Were the post to have said, "Gosling said so, therefore it must be true", *that* would be an improper appeal to authority. In this post, however, Gosling was *cited*, and his reasoning was given. I find it persuasive. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 18:14:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EA73A56FF3; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:14:50 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cream.kiva.net (cust-216-9-146-10.bton.kiva.net [216.9.146.10]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2A34256FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cdent@localhost) by cream.kiva.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8Q1RkR01117 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:27:46 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: cream.kiva.net: cdent owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:27:46 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Dent X-X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] PurpleSlurple Revisited - Again In-Reply-To: <200209250842.17449.matsch@sasites.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I think Purple Slurple is awesome. A suggestion: links within the purpled page should themselves be links to Purple Slurple, so that you can stay within a purplized space? -- Chris Dent http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/ "If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." N.Chomsky From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 18:28:06 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E823156FF8; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cream.kiva.net (cust-216-9-146-10.bton.kiva.net [216.9.146.10]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C06756FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (cdent@localhost) by cream.kiva.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g8Q1f1h01135 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:41:01 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: cream.kiva.net: cdent owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:41:01 -0500 (EST) From: Chris Dent X-X-Sender: To: Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL: Socialist Agenda? In-Reply-To: <001701c26496$ec79ea40$180ec53f@collaboratory> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I'll take the bait. On Wed, 25 Sep 2002, John Maloney wrote: > (James) Gosling: There are all of these open-source licenses out there. > They pretty much all have their own political agenda. Sun has it's own. > The one we use for Java is really about compatibility. The GPL one is, I > find, rather odd because it has this string socialist agenda that > basically says intellectual property is bad. I think it's perfectly fine > for people to say, "I want to give my stuff away for free." When it > turns into, "Nobody else should be able to make profit off of > intellectual property," I start to have a hard time with it. And the > core of my hard time with it is it's sort of like a physics argument > about conservation of energy. It takes an awful lot of energy to produce > software. Somehow or other that has to be matched. The energy that comes > out as software, something's got to go in-if only to pay the salaries of > the people who are working on the software. And you can have all kinds > of indirect models and all the rest of it, but somehow or other it has > to happen. Thermal dynamics and energy conservation laws have been > absolutely strong, and they're that way in economics as well. I think Gosling is seeing an anti-intellectual property stance where there isn't one. As someone else has already said, the GPL uses copyright law to support itself. That said, I'm in favor of the GPL exactly because it restrains downstreams developers from turning my goodwill contribution to the commonweal into a profit generating system that benefits only them. A lot of great software is written by people working in publicly funded establishments. That stuff should be GPL'd. In my opinion, to make it anything else is a kick to the head. We can argue that publicly funded software development is a force for market generation. That's true, it can be, but _I don't care_. I don't want to see more markets that find their base in late stage capitalism. So, in that sense I wouldn't say that the GPL has a socialist agenda, but I would say that it has an anti-capitalist agenda and that's great. *whew* I'm glad I finally got that off my chest. -- Chris Dent http://www.burningchrome.com/~cdent/ "If you assume that there is an instinct for freedom, that there are opportunities to change things, that hope is possible, then hope may be justified, and a better world may be built. That's your choice." N.Chomsky From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 18:32:55 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 64FA856FF8; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from txsmtp01.texas.rr.com (smtp1.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.229]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B554956FF3 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 18:32:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux (cs662583-231.satx.rr.com [66.25.83.231]) by txsmtp01.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8Q1oPss004751 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" From: Matthew Schneider To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] PurpleSlurple "Proxy" - In the works Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 20:51:51 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200209252051.51867.matsch@sasites.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org On Wednesday 25 September 2002 20:27, Chris Dent wrote: > I think Purple Slurple is awesome. > > A suggestion: links within the purpled page should themselves be links > to Purple Slurple, so that you can stay within a purplized space? Thanks for the feedback Chris. PurpleSlurple Proxy (PSP) is in the works.= Eric=20 Armstrong also recognized the utility of a proxy a few weeks ago (see:=20 http://bootstrap.org/lists/ba-unrev-talk/0209/msg00016.html#nid05). Feedback from this group is always right on. Matt From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 21:31:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1AF4856FF3; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:31:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13707.mail.yahoo.com (web13707.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.140]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C8A6656FF2 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020926045001.11562.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.73.47.141] by web13707.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:50:01 PDT Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:50:01 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] From Eric: They're playing our tune!! To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <001a01c26499$08c9ec20$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1516988937-1033015801=:11550" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1516988937-1033015801=:11550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii HI Arne, The following contribution from one of Douglas Engelbart's listservs aligns nicely with my thinking on html: A new sophisticated client, and not html, is needed for online communcation and collaboration. That said, I've nothing against your proposal to use html for formatting adm pages (provided, of course, it doesn't make life harder for our users.) Cordially, Eric John Maloney wrote: "Unless you do very little work online, the concept of weaving all of your activity into a single web page couldn't be more misguided - from an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint." http://www.ozzie.net/blog/stories/2002/09/20/ifAllThatYouHaveIsAHammerEv erythingLooksLikeABrowser.html IMO, the WWW is simply not a collaborative medium. It is hard to imagine shoehorning all manner of human interaction into a web page.(?) It just doesn't make sense. Rather, a rich -intermodal- collaborative Internet client is a far more natural, social and human (humane?) approach. Developers targeting the WWW for collaboration are chasing the dragon. Considering the 'browser' as the least common denominator for seamless, ad hoc, global collaboration and community is also foolhardy. -jtm Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1516988937-1033015801=:11550 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

HI Arne,

The following contribution from one of Douglas Engelbart's listservs aligns nicely with my thinking on html:  A new sophisticated client, and not html, is needed for online communcation and collaboration.  That said, I've nothing against your proposal to use html for formatting adm pages (provided, of course, it doesn't make life harder for our users.)

Cordially, Eric

 John Maloney wrote:


"Unless you do very little work online, the concept of weaving all of
your activity into a single web page couldn't be more misguided - from
an efficiency and effectiveness standpoint."

http://www.ozzie.net/blog/stories/2002/09/20/ifAllThatYouHaveIsAHammerEv
erythingLooksLikeABrowser.html

IMO, the WWW is simply not a collaborative medium. It is hard to imagine
shoehorning all manner of human interaction into a web page.(?) It just
doesn't make sense. Rather, a rich -intermodal- collaborative Internet
client is a far more natural, social and human (humane?) approach.

Developers targeting the WWW for collaboration are chasing the dragon.

Considering the 'browser' as the least common denominator for seamless,
ad hoc, global collaboration and community is also foolhardy.

-jtm


Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1516988937-1033015801=:11550-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Sep 25 21:39:36 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 637E456FF8; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:39:36 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13708.mail.yahoo.com (web13708.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.141]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E285156FF3 for ; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020926045754.32404.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.73.47.141] by web13708.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:57:54 PDT Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2002 21:57:54 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <002501c264db$e56aeac0$aedb193e@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1282107378-1033016274=:31971" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1282107378-1033016274=:31971 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii HI Peter, I'll interpolate replies between your statements below: Peter Jones wrote: Hi Eric. Yes, I'm aware. Wishlist: 1) I want to be able to put a link to another admtopic in an admtopic. Couldn't see any way to do that. ======= Coming - very soon! - in ADM version 2.0! In fact, you'll be able to use simple drag and drop to link any adm topic - or any other data type - from any textcard of any topic as well! 2) Be able to choose the application that opens the file formats on a per file basis. I.e. I might have two html files, but I might want to have one of them always open in Notepad. ====== We've had this function in mind for ages - thanks for the reminder. We need to implement it. (May not get to it for a little while but we'll do it.) 3) Ability to change the fonts would go along way towards improving the interface. (You can currently change the global font settings for topics or textcards (documents) and you can modify the font in any particular textcard. Enhanced and expanded font and interface control is also coming - soon! Blessings of light and All the best, Eric Sommer, ADM CEO -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "ADM Staff" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 6:11 AM Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry > > Hi there, > In glancing again at your inquiry below, I suddently wondered whether you were aware that you can instantly link *any* file in any format to any adm topic via drag-and-drop or icon or menu item? (Such linked files open when activated in their native applications.) > Cordially, Eric > Peter Jones > wrote: Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff), > > I've been playing with this tool a little. > website: http://www.adm21.net > Your website makes some bold claims for it. > "You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and > outliner program on Earth..." > "This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's and > files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming in > your life ..." > "ADM is a Godsend for lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..." > > Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a > proprietary file format. > Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file format? > > Regards, > -- > Peter > > > > Advanced Data Management Systems > Email: staff@adm21.net > website: http://www.adm21.net > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1282107378-1033016274=:31971 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

HI Peter,

I'll interpolate replies between your statements below:

 Peter Jones wrote:

Hi Eric.

Yes, I'm aware.

Wishlist:
1) I want to be able to put a link to another admtopic in an admtopic. Couldn't see any way to do that.

=======  Coming - very soon! - in ADM version 2.0! In fact, you'll be able to use simple drag and drop to link any adm topic - or any other data type - from any textcard of any topic as well!   


2) Be able to choose the application that opens the file formats on a per file
basis. I.e. I might have two html files, but I might want to have one of them
always open in Notepad.

======  We've had this function in mind for ages - thanks for the reminder.  We need to implement it.  (May not get to it for a little while but we'll do it.)


3) Ability to change the fonts would go along way towards improving the
interface.  (You can currently change the global font settings for topics or textcards (documents) and you can modify the font in any particular textcard.  Enhanced and expanded font and interface control is also coming - soon!

Blessings of light and All the best,

Eric Sommer, ADM CEO

--
Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: "ADM Staff"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2002 6:11 AM
Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry


>
> Hi there,
> In glancing again at your inquiry below, I suddently wondered whether you were
aware that you can instantly link *any* file in any format to any adm topic via
drag-and-drop or icon or menu item? (Such linked files open when activated in
their native applications.)
> Cordially, Eric
> Peter Jones
> wrote: Dear Eric Sommer (ADM Staff),
>
> I've been playing with this tool a little.
> website: http://www.adm21.net
> Your website makes some bold claims for it.
> "You have just found the most powerful personal knowledge-management and
> outliner program on Earth..."
> "This program has the ability to manage all the information (including URL's
and
> files), all the projects, all the writing, and all the creative brainstorming
in
> your life ..."
> "ADM is a Godsend for
lawyers...academics...students...researchers...writers..."
>
> Whilst it has many attractive features, I'm puzzled by what appears to be a
> proprietary file format.
> Could you please explain why it doesn't have an XML or similar open file
format?
>
> Regards,
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
> Advanced Data Management Systems
> Email: staff@adm21.net
> website: http://www.adm21.net
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!



Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1282107378-1033016274=:31971-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 10:33:20 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 09B1656FF3; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 766F356FF2 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 10:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-1121dgs.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.32.182.28] helo=D9KP0711) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ucnU-00025C-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:51:33 -0400 From: "Mei Lin Fung" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Where is Doug? Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 08:48:33 -0700 Organization: MLF Associates Inc. Message-ID: <00a801c26574$2b58b240$2002a8c0@D9KP0711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I will share what I know: 1. He sent a note to the OHS list on the issue of IP ownership as discussions about the Colloquium speaker agreement were flowing strongly. 2. He lurks around both the OHS and UNrev lists. He is very concerned to get the Hyperscope project off the ground. All his available time and energy is devoted to that. The OHS and UNrev discussion follows where the posts lead them - There is a natural flow. While it happens not to be specifically on the strategic issues related to Bootstrapping, there are many paths to heaven. Good information gets posted, there's good people here. This is a good discussion group. I for one, am happy that it exists and brings up the wealth of knowledge and perspective on Bootstrapping projects. If discussion participants are interested in emerging to lead more specific dialogue on exactly what Doug is trying to do with the Hyperscope, the right place to do it is on Open Hyperdocument System (OHS) list found at ba-ohs talk@bootstrap.org To contribute meaningfully to the discussion the pre-requisites are to have read the following: 1962 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/AUGMENT/133182-0.html The seminal paper: Augmenting the Human Intellect 1992 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/AUGMENT/133182-0.html Towards High-Performance Organizations: A Strategic Role for Groupware 2000 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/BI/2120.html Draft OHS Project Plan It is one of Doug's strongest regrets that there has been insufficient interest and discussion on the BI2120 paper which appeared in October 2000. We are actively working with several different organizations to do joint project proposals to get Hyperscope-related projects funded. Such projects must revolve around Doug's specific approach and concept of the Hyperscope, and involve deep dialogue on how to experiment and move forward. Doug, at 77, is intensely committed to helping us realize how much more needs to be done to solve urgent complex problems. He is adamant it must be on his terms - not because of a large ego, or an unreasonable conviction that he is right. I've now been volunteering and working with Doug for a year and can see that his stubborn conviction that we need to start on an evolvable framework based on purposeful communities is based on sound reasoning and clear experience of how easy it is to get diverted into fun side tracks. Gerald Pierce's explanation of what it was like at his semiconductor supplier company is very apropos in highlighting the type of social and organizational problem that is encompassed and anticipated in Doug's approach to complex urgent problems - the technology is a critical but small component in the overall Engelbart Framework. Mei Lin Fung mlf@bootstrap.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of stephen white Sent: Saturday, September 21, 2002 6:12 AM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Corporate Morality On Saturday, September 21, 2002, at 09:06 AM, Gerald Pierce wrote: > I LOVE that statement. TRUE Bootstrapping! "Clearly I'm > having a bad brain day." ROFL. Maybe we can rope Douglas > Hofstadter into the newsgroup. That brings up a question I've been wondering about for some time... Why isn't Douglas Englebart in this mailing list? It's about him, it's about his area, good information gets posted, and there's good people here. -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 11:50:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id F113F56FF9; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com [207.46.181.87]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4938D56FF2; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.38.57]) by cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:07:09 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Cc: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Where is Doug? Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 12:08:15 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <00a801c26574$2b58b240$2002a8c0@D9KP0711> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Sep 2002 19:07:09.0788 (UTC) FILETIME=[E9D9A9C0:01C2658F] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mei Lin, Thank you for the links. I notice that the second one is identical to the first. Please repost the link for the 1992 paper. - - - - - - - - I reread the Draft OHS Project Plan. I had forgotten this. I notice that I don't operate in reference to it. I have some quick impressions, ones I may have held back in the past: 1. The OHS Project Plan is rather fixed, or seems so. In that it has an implicit architecture and approach, and some details are stated. It is like here is what to build, but not enough grounding in what is being provided and then what is the room for flexibility in achieving that. This is an impression, on a Thursday morning where I am fighting a cold. I apologize for not having a more-reasoned analysis. But it is kind of like walking into a richly-plotted movie in the middle. A difficulty I find is that I am not sure what is essential and what is incidental or merely a suggested implementation. It's like the answer is already in hand. So I've been ignoring that or maybe even paying lip-service to it. I'm enrolled in the OHS concept but not so much that this is the form it has to take. 2. I notice that there is a big assumption about translators and having an intermediate form. That's a major presumption, and the computer/information science's track record at that sort of thing is not terribly great. I am interested in that aspect, but it is not clear that we have a good model for working the legacy cases with much economy. (I swear I raised this concern before, but it might not have been here.) In many ways, this could end up the same as trying to solve the problem the semantic web is intended to address. I am personally not that confident about the prospects here. (I think a huddle between Doug and Terry Winograd might be valuable in this context.) 3. Well then, what is a lad to do. I must be hanging out here for some reason better than pissing on someone else's parade. 3.1 I think there is a lot of ground that has not been covered in supporting collaborative work via the internet and digital resources. That's an intellectual posture for me though, not one grounded in deep experience. And I just have it that there is a pony in here somewhere. And this forum has people who have rich experience and many bright ideas. 3.2 The requirement for legacy support, publicly-owned specifications and formats, and architectures that outlive their creators are all very important. 3.3 It is when I step back and see what lights me up in this endeavor, it is how it features in the eternal quest to know who we are, where we are, and what's it about. And the community of seekers is distributed over time (a few thousand years at least) and space (this planet and orbital space, at least). The structure that holds our endeavors in existence is writing, language, and culture, now expanding into cyberspace. And it is with these structures that we support the cooperative and coordinated activities of human society, situating ourselves in the endless journey. -- orcmid ------------------ Dennis E. Hamilton http://NuovoDoc.com/ mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org tel. +1-206-932-6970 cell +1-206-779-9430 The Miser Project: http://miser-theory.info/ AIIM DMware: http://DMware.info/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Mei Lin Fung Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 08:49 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Where is Doug? [ ... ] 1962 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/AUGMENT/133182-0.html The seminal paper: Augmenting the Human Intellect 1992 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/AUGMENT/133182-0.html Towards High-Performance Organizations: A Strategic Role for Groupware 2000 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/BI/2120.html Draft OHS Project Plan It is one of Doug's strongest regrets that there has been insufficient interest and discussion on the BI2120 paper which appeared in October 2000. [ ... ] Mei Lin Fung mlf@bootstrap.org [ ... ] From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 13:05:04 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 376D456FF3; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp10.atl.mindspring.net (smtp10.atl.mindspring.net [207.69.200.246]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9807156FF2 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user-1121dgs.dsl.mindspring.com ([66.32.182.28] helo=D9KP0711) by smtp10.atl.mindspring.net with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ufAL-0000Hv-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 16:23:17 -0400 From: "Mei Lin Fung" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Where is Doug? Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 11:20:17 -0700 Organization: MLF Associates Inc. Message-ID: <00bf01c26589$5e465df0$2002a8c0@D9KP0711> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sorry everyone. Here is the correct link for the 1992 paper. http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/AUGMENT/132811.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Dennis E. Hamilton Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 12:08 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: mlf@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Where is Doug? Mei Lin, Thank you for the links. I notice that the second one is identical to the first. Please repost the link for the 1992 paper. - - - - - - - - I reread the Draft OHS Project Plan. I had forgotten this. I notice that I don't operate in reference to it. I have some quick impressions, ones I may have held back in the past: 1. The OHS Project Plan is rather fixed, or seems so. In that it has an implicit architecture and approach, and some details are stated. It is like here is what to build, but not enough grounding in what is being provided and then what is the room for flexibility in achieving that. This is an impression, on a Thursday morning where I am fighting a cold. I apologize for not having a more-reasoned analysis. But it is kind of like walking into a richly-plotted movie in the middle. A difficulty I find is that I am not sure what is essential and what is incidental or merely a suggested implementation. It's like the answer is already in hand. So I've been ignoring that or maybe even paying lip-service to it. I'm enrolled in the OHS concept but not so much that this is the form it has to take. 2. I notice that there is a big assumption about translators and having an intermediate form. That's a major presumption, and the computer/information science's track record at that sort of thing is not terribly great. I am interested in that aspect, but it is not clear that we have a good model for working the legacy cases with much economy. (I swear I raised this concern before, but it might not have been here.) In many ways, this could end up the same as trying to solve the problem the semantic web is intended to address. I am personally not that confident about the prospects here. (I think a huddle between Doug and Terry Winograd might be valuable in this context.) 3. Well then, what is a lad to do. I must be hanging out here for some reason better than pissing on someone else's parade. 3.1 I think there is a lot of ground that has not been covered in supporting collaborative work via the internet and digital resources. That's an intellectual posture for me though, not one grounded in deep experience. And I just have it that there is a pony in here somewhere. And this forum has people who have rich experience and many bright ideas. 3.2 The requirement for legacy support, publicly-owned specifications and formats, and architectures that outlive their creators are all very important. 3.3 It is when I step back and see what lights me up in this endeavor, it is how it features in the eternal quest to know who we are, where we are, and what's it about. And the community of seekers is distributed over time (a few thousand years at least) and space (this planet and orbital space, at least). The structure that holds our endeavors in existence is writing, language, and culture, now expanding into cyberspace. And it is with these structures that we support the cooperative and coordinated activities of human society, situating ourselves in the endless journey. -- orcmid ------------------ Dennis E. Hamilton http://NuovoDoc.com/ mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org tel. +1-206-932-6970 cell +1-206-779-9430 The Miser Project: http://miser-theory.info/ AIIM DMware: http://DMware.info/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Mei Lin Fung Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 08:49 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Where is Doug? [ ... ] 1962 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/AUGMENT/133182-0.html The seminal paper: Augmenting the Human Intellect 1992 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/AUGMENT/133182-0.html Towards High-Performance Organizations: A Strategic Role for Groupware 2000 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/BI/2120.html Draft OHS Project Plan It is one of Doug's strongest regrets that there has been insufficient interest and discussion on the BI2120 paper which appeared in October 2000. [ ... ] Mei Lin Fung mlf@bootstrap.org [ ... ] From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 13:21:08 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 726B656FF9; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail7.wlv.netzero.net (mail7.wlv.netzero.net [209.247.163.57]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C4D0B56FF3 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29576 invoked from network); 26 Sep 2002 20:39:25 -0000 Received: from dsc01.oav-ca-1.rasserver.net (HELO netzero.net) (204.30.193.175) by mail7.wlv.netzero.net with SMTP; 26 Sep 2002 20:39:25 -0000 Message-ID: <3D9370DE.B7E3D8BD@netzero.net> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 13:41:03 -0700 From: "John J. Deneen" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en]C-{C-UDP; EBM-SONY1} (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Where is Doug? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Question: Since, "Doug Engelbart has proposed the design and implementation of a Hyperscope as a first step towards the OHS and says: "Tom Phelps's Multivalent Browser is a candidate Hyperscope application" < http://www.bootstrap.org/ohs/research.jsp#nid019 >, then why are we not focusing more of our ba-unrev-talk and collaborative efforts on the Multivalent Browser for "Re-inventing Scholarly Information Dissemination and Use" < http://dlp.cs.berkeley.edu/ > ? "Dennis E. Hamilton" wrote: > Mei Lin, > > Thank you for the links. > > I notice that the second one is identical to the first. Please repost the > link for the 1992 paper. > > - - - - - - - - > > I reread the Draft OHS Project Plan. I had forgotten this. I notice that I > don't operate in reference to it. I have some quick impressions, ones I may > have held back in the past: > > 1. The OHS Project Plan is rather fixed, or seems so. In that it has an > implicit architecture and approach, and some details are stated. It is like > here is what to build, but not enough grounding in what is being provided > and then what is the room for flexibility in achieving that. This is an > impression, on a Thursday morning where I am fighting a cold. I apologize > for not having a more-reasoned analysis. But it is kind of like walking > into a richly-plotted movie in the middle. A difficulty I find is that I am > not sure what is essential and what is incidental or merely a suggested > implementation. It's like the answer is already in hand. So I've been > ignoring that or maybe even paying lip-service to it. I'm enrolled in the > OHS concept but not so much that this is the form it has to take. > > 2. I notice that there is a big assumption about translators and having an > intermediate form. That's a major presumption, and the computer/information > science's track record at that sort of thing is not terribly great. I am > interested in that aspect, but it is not clear that we have a good model for > working the legacy cases with much economy. (I swear I raised this concern > before, but it might not have been here.) In many ways, this could end up > the same as trying to solve the problem the semantic web is intended to > address. I am personally not that confident about the prospects here. (I > think a huddle between Doug and Terry Winograd might be valuable in this > context.) > > 3. Well then, what is a lad to do. I must be hanging out here for some > reason better than pissing on someone else's parade. > > 3.1 I think there is a lot of ground that has not been covered in supporting > collaborative work via the internet and digital resources. That's an > intellectual posture for me though, not one grounded in deep experience. > And I just have it that there is a pony in here somewhere. And this forum > has people who have rich experience and many bright ideas. > > 3.2 The requirement for legacy support, publicly-owned specifications and > formats, and architectures that outlive their creators are all very > important. > > 3.3 It is when I step back and see what lights me up in this endeavor, it is > how it features in the eternal quest to know who we are, where we are, and > what's it about. And the community of seekers is distributed over time (a > few thousand years at least) and space (this planet and orbital space, at > least). The structure that holds our endeavors in existence is writing, > language, and culture, now expanding into cyberspace. And it is with these > structures that we support the cooperative and coordinated activities of > human society, situating ourselves in the endless journey. > > -- orcmid > > ------------------ > Dennis E. Hamilton > http://NuovoDoc.com/ > mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org > tel. +1-206-932-6970 > cell +1-206-779-9430 > The Miser Project: http://miser-theory.info/ > AIIM DMware: http://DMware.info/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Mei Lin Fung > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 08:49 > To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Where is Doug? > > [ ... ] > > 1962 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/AUGMENT/133182-0.html > The seminal paper: Augmenting the Human Intellect > > 1992 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/AUGMENT/133182-0.html > Towards High-Performance Organizations: A Strategic Role for Groupware > > 2000 http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/BI/2120.html > Draft OHS Project Plan > > It is one of Doug's strongest regrets that there has been insufficient > interest and discussion on the BI2120 paper which appeared in October > 2000. > > [ ... ] > > Mei Lin Fung > mlf@bootstrap.org > > [ ... ] ------------------------------------------- Introducing NetZero Long Distance Unlimited Long Distance only $29.95/ month! Sign Up Today! www.netzerolongdistance.com From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 14:26:45 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C369D56FF3; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:26:44 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (nwkea-mail-2.sun.com [192.18.42.14]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5664856FF2 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-2.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18500 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8QLixi16305 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D938030.584EA907@sun.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:46:25 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry References: <20020926045754.32404.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Peter: I'm looking forward to your review of this. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 14:30:59 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2A2D656FF9; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7880156FF3 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04913 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:49:12 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8QLnCi17122 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D93812D.38ADBD75@sun.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 14:50:37 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] PurpleSlurple "Proxy" - In the works References: <200209252051.51867.matsch@sasites.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Matthew Schneider wrote: > ...PurpleSlurple Proxy (PSP) is in the works.... Awesome news. Speaking of which... I already go through a proxy at work to get out the door. Anyone know how to chain proxies?? (Back to Doug's "transclusion filter"...) From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 15:07:35 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5B73156FF3; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:07:35 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.171]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5CA5556FF2 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 15:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-775.hodad.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.163.7] helo=vaio) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17uh4s-0001Xt-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:25:47 +0100 Message-ID: <001a01c265ab$4be97800$07a3193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <20020926045754.32404.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> <3D938030.584EA907@sun.com> Subject: Peter's Big Review of ADM WWO Client -- WAS:Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:23:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org The Big Review -- Good Stuff: If you like outlining, you might quite like this tool and where it's going. There are a few little niggles that I suspect will disappear in v2 and ADM seem to relish feedback so feel free to add to their to-do list. Fast download, fast install (on Windows at least) - just unzip and go, and there's much about the interface that is pretty intuitive, or at least fun to explore. Other things are harder to find and you will actually have to RTFM but the Help is context sensitive so you just push F1 and up it comes. Not-so-cool stuff: I have managed to make it hang once by switching across many applications to do various things and then coming back to it. The arrangement of the window panes nags - I would like to be able to move them around like in a visual IDE - layering or drag and dock as necessary. More options on that front would be good. Links are attached to admtopics (outline topics) but when embedded in a topic's textcard they don't appear active. So you don't appear to be able to insert links at certain points in the text (unless it's hidden in the manual somewhere I haven't been yet). I can see that becoming problematic. You can't just paste links into a linkcard off the clipboard and have them recognised as links, you have to right-click for a context menu. This irritated me a little. Personal attitude stuff: I'm not really the sort of person who approaches the task of organisation in an outlining way from the outset. I.e. outlining is the thing I do last once I've gathered my materials, and then only do with a subset of those materials. ADM might support this method of working, but I haven't really tested it to that extent yet because I haven't done anything that needs outlining lately. ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach. 7/10 for the app at this stage, but ADM Staff seem to be working hard on raising that. 8+/10 for effort. It's late. Time for bed. Cheers, -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Armstrong" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:46 PM Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry > Peter: > > I'm looking forward to your review of this. > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 17:07:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2283356FF9; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.chariot.net.au (mail.chariot.net.au [203.87.95.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C13756FF3 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steves-imac.local. (ppp-037.cust203-87-122.ghr.chariot.net.au [203.87.122.37]) by mail.chariot.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80680180053 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:56:01 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 09:56:01 +0930 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Spring From: stephen white To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Some interesting ideas here... and slightly painful for me, since I'd thought of these ideas earlier but didn't implement them... http://www.usercreations.com/spring/screenshots.html I'm glad to see this though, and am looking forwards to trying it out. PS. Screenshots! The one and only way to present new programs! -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 17:39:26 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B9DF956FFA; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB2B356FF9 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA11241 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:57:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8R0vZi24932 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D93AD55.A6AE46C5@sun.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:59:01 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Spring References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org stephen white wrote: > Some interesting ideas here... and slightly painful for me, since I'd > thought of these ideas earlier but didn't implement them... > > http://www.usercreations.com/spring/screenshots.html > > I'm glad to see this though, and am looking forwards to trying it out. > > PS. Screenshots! The one and only way to present new programs! Wow. A really nice looking effort. As with all such gee-whiz graphics, though, I wonder how well it scales. These things look great with 5 people, but what happens with my 200-person-and-growing contact list? Please do let us know your experiences, especially as you scale up. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 17:42:35 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 61FB656FFC; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB28356FFA for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 17:42:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21577 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:00:50 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8R10oi25372 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D93AE18.C80C6FD0@sun.com> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 18:02:16 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Peter's Big Review of ADM WWO Client -- WAS:Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry References: <20020926045754.32404.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> <3D938030.584EA907@sun.com> <001a01c265ab$4be97800$07a3193e@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thanks for the review, Peter. I hope you're reading this after getting some rest. It sounds as though you can't reorganize the outline very easily. Is that true? Because you're absolutely right that the path to organization is accrete tidbits and create categories for them as the commonalities become clear. Peter Jones wrote: > The Big Review -- > > Good Stuff: > If you like outlining, you might quite like this tool and where it's going. > There are a few little niggles that I suspect will disappear in v2 and ADM seem > to relish feedback so feel free to add to their to-do list. > Fast download, fast install (on Windows at least) - just unzip and go, and > there's much about the interface that is pretty intuitive, or at least fun to > explore. Other things are harder to find and you will actually have to RTFM but > the Help is context sensitive so you just push F1 and up it comes. > > Not-so-cool stuff: > I have managed to make it hang once by switching across many applications to do > various things and then coming back to it. > The arrangement of the window panes nags - I would like to be able to move them > around like in a visual IDE - layering or drag and dock as necessary. More > options on that front would be good. > Links are attached to admtopics (outline topics) but when embedded in a topic's > textcard they don't appear active. So you don't appear to be able to insert > links at certain points in the text (unless it's hidden in the manual somewhere > I haven't been yet). I can see that becoming problematic. > You can't just paste links into a linkcard off the clipboard and have them > recognised as links, you have to right-click for a context menu. This irritated > me a little. > > Personal attitude stuff: > I'm not really the sort of person who approaches the task of organisation in an > outlining way from the outset. I.e. outlining is the thing I do last once I've > gathered my materials, and then only do with a subset of those materials. ADM > might support this method of working, but I haven't really tested it to that > extent yet because I haven't done anything that needs outlining lately. > ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then > sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual > accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I > have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach. > > 7/10 for the app at this stage, but ADM Staff seem to be working hard on raising > that. 8+/10 for effort. > > It's late. Time for bed. > > Cheers, > -- > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Armstrong" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:46 PM > Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: > Another thought on your inquiry > > > Peter: > > > > I'm looking forward to your review of this. > > > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 22:59:49 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 33CBB56FFA; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:59:49 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13705.mail.yahoo.com (web13705.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.138]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C109556FF9 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 22:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020927061809.46010.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.73.6.14] by web13705.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:18:08 PDT Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:18:08 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Peter's Big Review of ADM WWO Client -- WAS:Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <3D93AE18.C80C6FD0@sun.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1857737166-1033107488=:45371" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-1857737166-1033107488=:45371 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Eric, I suspect that you may have misconstrued Peter's comment on the outliner below (he can speak for himself when he wakes up!). At least from our perspective at ADM, ease of reorganization of outline topics and appended materials is a key *strength* of the product. Cordially, Eric Sommer, CEO, ADM Eric Armstrong wrote:Thanks for the review, Peter. I hope you're reading this after getting some rest. It sounds as though you can't reorganize the outline very easily. Is that true? Because you're absolutely right that the path to organization is accrete tidbits and create categories for them as the commonalities become clear. Peter Jones wrote: > The Big Review -- > > Good Stuff: > If you like outlining, you might quite like this tool and where it's going. > There are a few little niggles that I suspect will disappear in v2 and ADM seem > to relish feedback so feel free to add to their to-do list. > Fast download, fast install (on Windows at least) - just unzip and go, and > there's much about the interface that is pretty intuitive, or at least fun to > explore. Other things are harder to find and you will actually have to RTFM but > the Help is context sensitive so you just push F1 and up it comes. > > Not-so-cool stuff: > I have managed to make it hang once by switching across many applications to do > various things and then coming back to it. > The arrangement of the window panes nags - I would like to be able to move them > around like in a visual IDE - layering or drag and dock as necessary. More > options on that front would be good. > Links are attached to admtopics (outline topics) but when embedded in a topic's > textcard they don't appear active. So you don't appear to be able to insert > links at certain points in the text (unless it's hidden in the manual somewhere > I haven't been yet). I can see that becoming problematic. > You can't just paste links into a linkcard off the clipboard and have them > recognised as links, you have to right-click for a context menu. This irritated > me a little. > > Personal attitude stuff: > I'm not really the sort of person who approaches the task of organisation in an > outlining way from the outset. I.e. outlining is the thing I do last once I've > gathered my materials, and then only do with a subset of those materials. ADM > might support this method of working, but I haven't really tested it to that > extent yet because I haven't done anything that needs outlining lately. > ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then > sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual > accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I > have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach. > > 7/10 for the app at this stage, but ADM Staff seem to be working hard on raising > that. 8+/10 for effort. > > It's late. Time for bed. > > Cheers, > -- > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Armstrong" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:46 PM > Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: > Another thought on your inquiry > > > Peter: > > > > I'm looking forward to your review of this. > > > > > > Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1857737166-1033107488=:45371 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi Eric,

I suspect that you may have misconstrued Peter's comment on the outliner below (he can speak for himself when he wakes up!).  At least from our perspective at ADM, ease of reorganization of outline topics and appended materials is a key *strength* of the product.

Cordially, Eric Sommer, CEO, ADM

 Eric Armstrong wrote:

Thanks for the review, Peter. I hope you're reading this after
getting some rest.

It sounds as though you can't reorganize the outline very
easily. Is that true? Because you're absolutely right that the
path to organization is accrete tidbits and create categories
for them as the commonalities become clear.


Peter Jones wrote:

> The Big Review --
>
> Good Stuff:
> If you like outlining, you might quite like this tool and where it's going.
> There are a few little niggles that I suspect will disappear in v2 and ADM seem
> to relish feedback so feel free to add to their to-do list.
> Fast download, fast install (on Windows at least) - just unzip and go, and
> there's much about the interface that is pretty intuitive, or at least fun to
> explore. Other things are harder to find and you will actually have to RTFM but
> the Help is context sensitive so you just push F1 and up it comes.
>
> Not-so-cool stuff:
> I have managed to make it hang once by switching across many applications to do
> various things and then coming back to it.
> The arrangement of the window panes nags - I would like to be able to move them
> around like in a visual IDE - layering or drag and dock as necessary. More
> options on that front would be good.
> Links are attached to admtopics (outline topics) but when embedded in a topic's
> textcard they don't appear active. So you don't appear to be able to insert
> links at certain points in the text (unless it's hidden in the manual somewhere
> I haven't been yet). I can see that becoming problematic.
> You can't just paste links into a linkcard off the clipboard and have them
> recognised as links, you have to right-click for a context menu. This irritated
> me a little.
>
> Personal attitude stuff:
> I'm not really the sort of person who approaches the task of organisation in an
> outlining way from the outset. I.e. outlining is the thing I do last once I've
> gathered my materials, and then only do with a subset of those materials. ADM
> might support this method of working, but I haven't really tested it to that
> extent yet because I haven't done anything that needs outlining lately.
> ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then
> sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual
> accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I
> have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach.
>
> 7/10 for the app at this stage, but ADM Staff seem to be working hard on raising
> that. 8+/10 for effort.
>
> It's late. Time for bed.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Armstrong"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM:
> Another thought on your inquiry
>
> > Peter:
> >
> > I'm looking forward to your review of this.
> >
> >
> >





Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-1857737166-1033107488=:45371-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 23:19:23 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B2B3556FFA; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:19:22 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13705.mail.yahoo.com (web13705.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.138]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6E50C56FF9 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020927063742.48325.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.73.6.14] by web13705.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:37:42 PDT Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:37:42 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Reply from ADM to Peter's Big Review of ADM WWO Client To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <001a01c265ab$4be97800$07a3193e@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-339653225-1033108662=:44168" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-339653225-1033108662=:44168 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii HI Peter, Thanks for the friendly and thorough review of ADM below. For anyone whose interest is piqued by your review, I'd like to repeat the suggestoin that the ADM client be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net , and not from www.adm21.net , as only the version at the former site includes ability to surf the worldwideoutline demo. Regarding your review: We'll happily take the `7 out of 10' that you assign on your scorecard (we agree that their are currently various shortcomings), and we'll strive to raise that score in our forthcoming releases, due to be coded very shortly, which will be fully re-engineered around the world wide outline. As you note below, it is not currently possible to attach links to the textcards/pages but only to the *topics* to which textcards/pages are attached. However, full linking capabilities in the pages themselves will be added - hopefully within a few weeks - for *all* file types and for adm topics as well, so the power of hypertext will be conjoined with the power of outlining. Other forthcoming features included in the version 2.0 spec.: *Ability to create aestheticaly pleasing webpage *style* interneal textcards or pages for a more polished `professional' look when publishing to the O. *Additional windows and additional user-customizable textcard `types' *User customizable Data-base style forms' *Network enabling features (like file locking and utlimately a WWO server product); *Easy *save-to-O' publishing commands, *Ability to link an individual topic in one datastructure/outline/file to an *individual* topic in another file, whereas currently such inter-outline links can only be created from a topic to another file or outline as a whole. (very important for wwo connectivity between outlines over the net) * A classic collapsable outliner view of the data, in addition to the present `speed screens'. And much more. Cordially, Eric Peter Jones wrote:The Big Review -- Good Stuff: If you like outlining, you might quite like this tool and where it's going. There are a few little niggles that I suspect will disappear in v2 and ADM seem to relish feedback so feel free to add to their to-do list. Fast download, fast install (on Windows at least) - just unzip and go, and there's much about the interface that is pretty intuitive, or at least fun to explore. Other things are harder to find and you will actually have to RTFM but the Help is context sensitive so you just push F1 and up it comes. Not-so-cool stuff: I have managed to make it hang once by switching across many applications to do various things and then coming back to it. The arrangement of the window panes nags - I would like to be able to move them around like in a visual IDE - layering or drag and dock as necessary. More options on that front would be good. Links are attached to admtopics (outline topics) but when embedded in a topic's textcard they don't appear active. So you don't appear to be able to insert links at certain points in the text (unless it's hidden in the manual somewhere I haven't been yet). I can see that becoming problematic. You can't just paste links into a linkcard off the clipboard and have them recognised as links, you have to right-click for a context menu. This irritated me a little. Personal attitude stuff: I'm not really the sort of person who approaches the task of organisation in an outlining way from the outset. I.e. outlining is the thing I do last once I've gathered my materials, and then only do with a subset of those materials. ADM might support this method of working, but I haven't really tested it to that extent yet because I haven't done anything that needs outlining lately. ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach. 7/10 for the app at this stage, but ADM Staff seem to be working hard on raising that. 8+/10 for effort. It's late. Time for bed. Cheers, -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Armstrong" To: Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:46 PM Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry > Peter: > > I'm looking forward to your review of this. > > > Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-339653225-1033108662=:44168 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

HI Peter,

Thanks for the friendly and thorough review of ADM below.  For anyone whose interest is piqued by your review, I'd like to repeat the suggestoin that the ADM client be downloaded from www.worldwideoutline.net  , and not from www.adm21.net , as only the version at the former site includes ability to surf the worldwideoutline demo.

Regarding your review: 

We'll happily take the `7 out of 10' that you assign on your scorecard (we agree that their are currently various shortcomings), and we'll strive to raise that score in our forthcoming releases, due to be coded very shortly, which will be fully re-engineered around the world wide outline. 

As you note below, it is not currently possible to attach links to the textcards/pages but only to the *topics* to which textcards/pages are attached.  However, full linking capabilities in the pages themselves will be added - hopefully within a few weeks - for *all* file types and for adm topics as well, so the power of hypertext will be conjoined with the power of outlining. 

Other forthcoming features included in the version 2.0 spec.:

*Ability to create aestheticaly pleasing webpage *style* interneal textcards or pages for a more polished `professional' look when publishing to the O.

*Additional windows and additional user-customizable textcard `types'

*User customizable Data-base style forms'

*Network enabling features (like file locking and utlimately a WWO server product);

*Easy *save-to-O' publishing commands,

*Ability to link an individual topic in one datastructure/outline/file to an *individual* topic in another file, whereas currently such inter-outline links can only be created from a topic to another  file or outline as a whole. (very important for wwo connectivity between outlines over the net)

* A classic collapsable outliner view of the data, in addition to the present `speed screens'.

And much more.

Cordially, Eric

 Peter Jones wrote:

The Big Review --

Good Stuff:
If you like outlining, you might quite like this tool and where it's going.
There are a few little niggles that I suspect will disappear in v2 and ADM seem
to relish feedback so feel free to add to their to-do list.
Fast download, fast install (on Windows at least) - just unzip and go, and
there's much about the interface that is pretty intuitive, or at least fun to
explore. Other things are harder to find and you will actually have to RTFM but
the Help is context sensitive so you just push F1 and up it comes.

Not-so-cool stuff:
I have managed to make it hang once by switching across many applications to do
various things and then coming back to it.
The arrangement of the window panes nags - I would like to be able to move them
around like in a visual IDE - layering or drag and dock as necessary. More
options on that front would be good.
Links are attached to admtopics (outline topics) but when embedded in a topic's
textcard they don't appear active. So you don't appear to be able to insert
links at certain points in the text (unless it's hidden in the manual somewhere
I haven't been yet). I can see that becoming problematic.
You can't just paste links into a linkcard off the clipboard and have them
recognised as links, you have to right-click for a context menu. This irritated
me a little.

Personal attitude stuff:
I'm not really the sort of person who approaches the task of organisation in an
outlining way from the outset. I.e. outlining is the thing I do last once I've
gathered my materials, and then only do with a subset of those materials. ADM
might support this method of working, but I haven't really tested it to that
extent yet because I haven't done anything that needs outlining lately.
ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then
sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual
accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I
have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach.

7/10 for the app at this stage, but ADM Staff seem to be working hard on raising
that. 8+/10 for effort.

It's late. Time for bed.

Cheers,
--
Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Armstrong"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM:
Another thought on your inquiry


> Peter:
>
> I'm looking forward to your review of this.
>
>
>


Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-339653225-1033108662=:44168-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Sep 26 23:30:11 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8157556FFA; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from web13702.mail.yahoo.com (web13702.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.175.135]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CD8CC56FF9 for ; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20020927064829.72446.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [61.73.6.14] by web13702.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:48:29 PDT Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:48:29 -0700 (PDT) From: ADM Staff Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Final thought on Peter's review To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <20020927061809.46010.qmail@web13705.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-620660432-1033109309=:72022" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --0-620660432-1033109309=:72022 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Peter, In addition to my comments on your review in the preceeding message, I wanted to offer a simple approach for your needs as described below: ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then > sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual > accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I > have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach. ======= To incrementally accumulate and organize material, you can: A) Jjust drag and drop any collected topics or links into a branch/outline in the current datastructure; B) label the top level topic for the branch in any way you like (even `unsorted' is OK) C) You can then progressivly sort out these topics over time via simple drag and drop and subordiantion/superordination moves labelled in any way you like. BTW, I'm confident of my progress-by-gradual-sortation suggestion here because I practice what I preach: I'm not just a software developer.but utilize ADM - every day - in various NON-Infotech venues such as NGO projects, authoring of complex documents, research projects, an employment agency of which I was CEO, etc. Working with ADM grreatly boosts both my ability to collect and organize data of all types, and my intellectual power to organize and synthesize this data. Cordially, Eric ADM Staff wrote: Hi Eric, I suspect that you may have misconstrued Peter's comment on the outliner below (he can speak for himself when he wakes up!). At least from our perspective at ADM, ease of reorganization of outline topics and appended materials is a key *strength* of the product. Cordially, Eric Sommer, CEO, ADM Eric Armstrong wrote: Thanks for the review, Peter. I hope you're reading this after getting some rest. It sounds as though you can't reorganize the outline very easily. Is that true? Because you're absolutely right that the path to organization is accrete tidbits and create categories for them as the commonalities become clear. Peter Jones wrote: > The Big Review -- > > Good Stuff: > If you like outlining, you might quite like this tool and where it's going. > There are a few little niggles that I suspect will disappear in v2 and ADM seem > to relish feedback so feel free to add to their to-do list. > Fast download, fast install (on Windows at least) - just unzip and go, and > there's much about the interface that is pretty intuitive, or at least fun to > explore. Other things are harder to find and you will actually have to RTFM but > the Help is context sensitive so you just push F1 and up it comes. > > Not-so-cool stuff: > I have managed to make it hang once by switching across many applications to do > various things and then coming back to it. > The arrangement of the window panes nags - I would like to be able to move them > around like in a visual IDE - layering or drag and dock as necessary. More > options on that front would be good. > Links are attached to admtopics (outline topics) but when embedded in a topic's > textcard they don't appear active. So you don't appear to be able to insert > links at certain points in the text (unless it's hidden in the manual somewhere > I haven't been yet). I can see that becoming problematic. > You can't just paste links into a linkcard off the clipboard and have them > recognised as links, you have to right-click for a context menu. This irritated > me a little. > > Personal attitude stuff: > I'm not really the sort of person who approaches the task of organisation in an > outlining way from the outset. I.e. outlining is the thing I do last once I've > gathered my materials, and then only do with a subset of those materials. ADM > might support this method of working, but I haven't really tested it to that > extent yet because I haven't done anything that needs outlining lately. > ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then > sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual > accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I > have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach. > > 7/10 for the app at this stage, but ADM Staff seem to be working hard on raising > that. 8+/10 for effort. > > It's late. Time for bed. > > Cheers, > -- > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Armstrong" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:46 PM > Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: > Another thought on your inquiry > > > Peter: > > > > I'm looking forward to your review of this. > > > > > > Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! Advanced Data Management Systems Email: staff@adm21.net website: http://www.adm21.net --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-620660432-1033109309=:72022 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi Peter,

In addition to my comments on your review in the preceeding message, I wanted to offer a simple approach for your needs as described below:

ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then
> sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual
> accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I
> have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach.

======= To incrementally accumulate and organize material, you can:
A) Jjust drag and drop any collected topics or links into a branch/outline in the current datastructure;

B) label the top level topic for the branch in any way you like (even `unsorted' is OK)

C) You can then progressivly sort out these topics over time via simple drag and drop and subordiantion/superordination moves labelled in any way you like. 

BTW, I'm confident of my progress-by-gradual-sortation suggestion here because I practice what I preach:  I'm not just a software developer.but utilize ADM - every day - in various NON-Infotech venues such as NGO projects, authoring of complex documents, research projects, an employment agency of which I was CEO, etc.  Working with ADM grreatly boosts both my ability to collect and organize data of all types, and my intellectual power to organize and synthesize this data.

Cordially, Eric

 ADM Staff wrote:

Hi Eric,

I suspect that you may have misconstrued Peter's comment on the outliner below (he can speak for himself when he wakes up!).  At least from our perspective at ADM, ease of reorganization of outline topics and appended materials is a key *strength* of the product.

Cordially, Eric Sommer, CEO, ADM

 Eric Armstrong wrote:

Thanks for the review, Peter. I hope you're reading this after
getting some rest.

It sounds as though you can't reorganize the outline very
easily. Is that true? Because you're absolutely right that the
path to organization is accrete tidbits and create categories
for them as the commonalities become clear.


Peter Jones wrote:

> The Big Review --
>
> Good Stuff:
> If you like outlining, you might quite like this tool and where it's going.
> There are a few little niggles that I suspect will disappear in v2 and ADM seem
> to relish feedback so feel free to add to their to-do list.
> Fast download, fast install (on Windows at least) - just unzip and go, and
> there's much about the interface that is pretty intuitive, or at least fun to
> explore. Other things are harder to find and you will actually have to RTFM but
> the Help is context sensitive so you just push F1 and up it comes.
>
> Not-so-cool stuff:
> I have managed to make it hang once by switching across many applications to do
> various things and then coming back to it.
> The arrangement of the window panes nags - I would like to be able to move them
> around like in a visual IDE - layering or drag and dock as necessary. More
> options on that front would be good.
> Links are attached to admtopics (outline topics) but when embedded in a topic's
> textcard they don't appear active. So you don't appear to be able to insert
> links at certain points in the text (unless it's hidden in the manual somewhere
> I haven't been yet). I can see that becoming problematic.
> You can't just paste links into a linkcard off the clipboard and have them
> recognised as links, you have to right-click for a context menu. This irritated
> me a little.
>
> Personal attitude stuff:
> I'm not really the sort of person who approaches the task of organisation in an
> outlining way from the outset. I.e. outlining is the thing I do last once I've
> gathered my materials, and then only do with a subset of those materials. ADM
> might support this method of working, but I haven't really tested it to that
> extent yet because I haven't done anything that needs outlining lately.
> ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then
> sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual
> accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I
> have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach.
>
> 7/10 for the app at this stage, but ADM Staff seem to be working hard on raising
> that. 8+/10 for effort.
>
> It's late. Time for bed.
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Armstrong"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM:
> Another thought on your inquiry
>
> > Peter:
> >
> > I'm looking forward to your review of this.
> >
> >
> >





Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo!


Advanced Data Management Systems
Email: staff@adm21.net
website: http://www.adm21.net



Do you Yahoo!?
New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! --0-620660432-1033109309=:72022-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 27 10:12:59 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 503AC56FFA; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:12:59 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B820456FF9 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-1251.tailslide.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.224.227] helo=vaio) by cmailm4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17uyxJ-00008m-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:31:09 +0100 Message-ID: <002801c2664b$4d3207e0$4dc3193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <20020926045754.32404.qmail@web13708.mail.yahoo.com> <3D938030.584EA907@sun.com> <001a01c265ab$4be97800$07a3193e@vaio> <3D93AE18.C80C6FD0@sun.com> Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Peter's Big Review of ADM WWO Client -- WAS:Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:22:13 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Hi, > It sounds as though you can't reorganize the outline very > easily. Is that true? No, that's not true - ADM is very powerful in that respect. Let me state that another way in case Eric Sommer's messages aren't hitting the nail. ADM does outline stuff very well. I was making a point about *my personal working style*. I would like to be able to accrue information in a more contextual graph/network/topic map way and only later - when I know that I'm heading towards some form of publication - start moving subsets of that into outlines that have some linear priorities for narrative reasons. It's a point I made very indirectly a long time ago on this list when I published some ideas for an interface (no longer on my website). Cheers, -- Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Armstrong" To: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 2:02 AM Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Re: Peter's Big Review of ADM WWO Client -- WAS:Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: Another thought on your inquiry > Thanks for the review, Peter. I hope you're reading this after > getting some rest. > > It sounds as though you can't reorganize the outline very > easily. Is that true? Because you're absolutely right that the > path to organization is accrete tidbits and create categories > for them as the commonalities become clear. > > > Peter Jones wrote: > > > The Big Review -- > > > > Good Stuff: > > If you like outlining, you might quite like this tool and where it's going. > > There are a few little niggles that I suspect will disappear in v2 and ADM seem > > to relish feedback so feel free to add to their to-do list. > > Fast download, fast install (on Windows at least) - just unzip and go, and > > there's much about the interface that is pretty intuitive, or at least fun to > > explore. Other things are harder to find and you will actually have to RTFM but > > the Help is context sensitive so you just push F1 and up it comes. > > > > Not-so-cool stuff: > > I have managed to make it hang once by switching across many applications to do > > various things and then coming back to it. > > The arrangement of the window panes nags - I would like to be able to move them > > around like in a visual IDE - layering or drag and dock as necessary. More > > options on that front would be good. > > Links are attached to admtopics (outline topics) but when embedded in a topic's > > textcard they don't appear active. So you don't appear to be able to insert > > links at certain points in the text (unless it's hidden in the manual somewhere > > I haven't been yet). I can see that becoming problematic. > > You can't just paste links into a linkcard off the clipboard and have them > > recognised as links, you have to right-click for a context menu. This irritated > > me a little. > > > > Personal attitude stuff: > > I'm not really the sort of person who approaches the task of organisation in an > > outlining way from the outset. I.e. outlining is the thing I do last once I've > > gathered my materials, and then only do with a subset of those materials. ADM > > might support this method of working, but I haven't really tested it to that > > extent yet because I haven't done anything that needs outlining lately. > > ADM does let you dump resources and so forth into a collector and you can then > > sort them out later but for me organisation of that material comes as a gradual > > accretion of links and notes in multiple structures that slowly come together. I > > have yet to ascertain whether ADM supports my personal approach. > > > > 7/10 for the app at this stage, but ADM Staff seem to be working hard on raising > > that. 8+/10 for effort. > > > > It's late. Time for bed. > > > > Cheers, > > -- > > Peter > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Eric Armstrong" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 10:46 PM > > Subject: Re: Peter's ADM features wishlistWas: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] From ADM: > > Another thought on your inquiry > > > > > Peter: > > > > > > I'm looking forward to your review of this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 27 10:52:39 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B215A56FFA; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BA2456FF9 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H33001NEZU5VY@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:10:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:10:46 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Globalize This! To: UNREV Message-id: <003801c26651$33bf89d0$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_i547vjI2cfwj9/q4jgVjTQ)" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_i547vjI2cfwj9/q4jgVjTQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT http://sept.globalizethis.org/ --Boundary_(ID_i547vjI2cfwj9/q4jgVjTQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message --Boundary_(ID_i547vjI2cfwj9/q4jgVjTQ)-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 27 11:41:30 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 55C4C56FFA; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:41:30 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E0FD256FF9 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-105.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.105] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17v0L3-0004Ni-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:59:45 -0400 Message-ID: <3D94AA9E.1030605@rcn.com> Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:59:42 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------040704030704070809000001" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------040704030704070809000001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our Name) Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression. The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people of the world. http://www.nion.us/ --------------040704030704070809000001 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience"  NION (Not In Our Name)

Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression.
 
The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people of the world.

  http://www.nion.us/

--------------040704030704070809000001-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 27 13:22:49 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BD12B56FFA; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:22:48 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.18]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8D8CE56FF9 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from modem-59.cloyster.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.94.59] helo=vaio) by cmailm1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 17v1v3-0003UV-00 for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:41:01 +0100 Message-ID: <005c01c26665$d32f07c0$4dc3193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Systems Theories Penetrate Economics Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:38:22 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.btinternet.com/~pae_news/review/issue7.htm Jason Potts and John Nightingale (2001) "An Alternative Framework for Economics" , post-autistic economics review : issue no. 10, December, article 3. "An Alternative Framework For Economics John Nightingale, (University of New England, Australia) Jason Potts, (University of Queensland, Australia) "The award of the Nobel Prize in Economics for Information Economics gives an opportunity to illustrate why this form of economic analysis is a dead end. The theories advanced by the Prize winners, Akerlof, Stiglitz and Spence, are ad hoc auxiliary assumptions tacked onto the neoclassical, and neowalrasian, hard core. The work of these auxiliaries is mainly ex post rationalisation rather than prediction or explanation. "Is modern economic theory just a morass of special cases? It is important that some alternative framework be found to allow valid generalisation to once again characterise economic theory, and this time, not fail to provide robust empirical results in the absence of ad hoc auxiliaries. Is there such an alternative? We can report that there is, and that it promises all that is missing from orthodoxy. "The autism of orthodoxy stems from its treatment of the human agent, who is mindless and does not interact with other agents. The broad solution then is to develop a framework in which agents carry knowledge and interact with other agents to use and create knowledge. This is the essence of the new evolutionary economics (e.g. Loasby, Knowledge, Institutions and Evolution in Economics, 1999). In The New Evolutionary Microeconomics, Potts (2000) argues that all heterodox thought shares a common ontological foundation in the view that the dynamics of evolving economic systems are in the space of connections. An economy is a complex system of interactions, and the dynamics of an economic system involve change in the connective structure of the system. Three main themes can be found to share this common foundation. "The first is the evolutionary economics revived by Nelson and Winter (1982). This builds on Book IV of Marshall's Principles, and on Schumpeter's theories of cycles and innovation, creative destruction and greed for monopoly profit. Market capitalism is a restless system of experimentation in pursuit of sustainable rents based on private knowledge. This is fundamentally a neo-Darwinian approach. It has been argued in Nightingale and Laurent (Darwinism and Evolutionary Economics, Edward Elgar, 2001), that social and cultural theory is ultimately swallowed by Darwin's 'universal acid', as Dennett so tellingly put it (Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, 1995). Complexity and self-organisation theory is the most recent advance of the neo-Darwinian project (Foster and Metcalfe, Frontiers of Evolutionary Economics, 2001). "The second is the New "Old Institutionalism", which is about how agents with minds construct and use complex systems of rules. Current orthodoxy has largely ignored the cognitive dimension of human behaviour. This strand of course began with Veblen, finding new life in the development of both evolutionary thought and its application to human institutions. American Institutionalism saw the difficulties of Veblen's imprecision and contradictions, and neglected the biological metaphor introduced by Veblen in favour of a vague developmental notion of institutions as historical determinants of economic outcomes. Current research on Veblen's themes often ignores his contribution, but continuity of ideas remains clear. Organisational ecology, and other resource and systems based views of the firm, is one such well-defined field on inquiry. Evolutionary psychology is another (L. Cosmides and J. Tooby, (1994) 'Better than Rational' AER, 84: 327-32). Both these are converging in the economist's sphere, seeking explanations of selection processes and system regularities in habits, routines and the causes for organisations' and other institutions' persistence as well as entry and exit. The means by which knowledge is conserved as well as transformed and created is at the centre of this program. "The third is the complex systems view of economic systems. Methodological Individualism is one of the principles on which modern orthodox economics is based, as an article of faith, and a justification for the reductionism that has bedevilled areas such as macroeconomics. The antithesis of this is an organic approach that can be traced to, among others, the American pragmatist philosopher Charles Sanders Peirce. In essence, the concept of a system rather than some atom within an aggregation of atoms, as the entity of interest, distinguishes the organic approach from MI. Geoff Hodgson's Economics and Evolution (Polity Press, 1993) has an extended exposition of the importance of this branch of theory. Reductionism, one of the fundamentals of MI, insists on 'micro foundations' for any explanation. An organic, systems or hierarchical approach insists that this demand is not only irrelevant but misleading. Such a demand results in attempting to use inappropriate theory, and has long been abandoned in the physical and life sciences (ever heard of a sub-atomic theory of ocean waves?). "This range of heterodox economic theories, all of which are close relatives of very orthodox theories in other fields of science, are united against the neowalrasian orthodoxy, even with the ad hoc auxiliaries added by this year's Nobel prize winning information economists, by a single critical feature. They are all theories of connections between knowledge carriers, be these individuals (in a theory of intra-household decisions), firms (in a theory of market structure), or sectors or national economies (in a theory of macroeconomic performance). They are all dynamic theories of systems evolving endogenously, subject to external shocks, of course. They are theories in which knowledge rather than information is key. They are not Newtonian field theories, in which every point is connected to every other. They can all be subsumed analytically as elements and the connections between them. These dynamic systems theories of evolutionary organisation are all graph theory constructs. In other words, using the language of graph theory, the geometry of elements and connections provides a unifying frame with which to develop these alternative economic theories. "This, then shows there is a progressive alternative to autistic neoclassical/neowalrasian economics. The emerging synthesis of evolutionary and self-organizational approaches into a framework of complex systems theory is a solid basis upon which to build. It connects evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology to evolutionary economics (for a popular science account, see, for example, Stuart Kauffman's At Home in the Universe, 1995). It provides analytic methods in discrete mathematics and multi-agent simulation models. It is the study of the emergence of order, rather than continuous equilibria. It is ontologically well-founded in a growth of knowledge framework where connections are the prime variables in an economic system. Such a unified heterodox synthesis may underpin a broad front of research advances that do not close off alternatives, but open more to scientific development. ___________________ "Jason Potts is the author of The New Evolutionary Microeconomics: Complexity, Competence, and Adaptive Behaviour (2000). John Nightingale is the co-editor of Darwinism and Evolutionary Economics, Edward Elgar, 2001." -- Peter From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Sep 27 21:17:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 68E2E56FFA; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.188]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A63E56FF9 for ; Fri, 27 Sep 2002 21:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.120]) by tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020928043606.CMZN1398.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:36:06 -0400 Message-ID: <3D9530CA.F840FE9E@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 00:32:10 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name References: <3D94AA9E.1030605@rcn.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DD9BB768BF61402ABB7CEC5D" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------DD9BB768BF61402ABB7CEC5D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary. First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are personal? >From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently learned that those stories were concocted by a PR/advertising agency on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in the sand.) The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with military action against Saddam Hussain. Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the statement being written by highly respected editorial writers, whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct, it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"] features a diverse list of influential names." It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge the remaining sober; and then, how to act. "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems. Henry Gary Richmond wrote: > The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our Name) > > Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when > their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new > measures of repression. > > The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to resist > the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since > September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people of the > world. > > http://www.nion.us/ --------------DD9BB768BF61402ABB7CEC5D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary.

First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are personal?

From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently learned that those stories were concocted by a PR/advertising agency on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in the sand.)

The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.

The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with military action against Saddam Hussain.

Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the statement being written by highly respected editorial writers, whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct, it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"] features a diverse list of influential names."

It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge the remaining sober; and then, how to act.

"Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems.

Henry
 

Gary Richmond wrote:

The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience"  NION (Not In Our Name)

Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression.

The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people of the world.

http://www.nion.us/

--------------DD9BB768BF61402ABB7CEC5D-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 28 08:58:23 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8F69E56FF9; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 08:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 826C256FF5 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 08:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-105.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.105] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17vKGj-0001Um-00; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 12:16:37 -0400 Message-ID: <3D95D5E4.3030502@rcn.com> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 12:16:36 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: Aldo de Moor Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name References: <3D94AA9E.1030605@rcn.com> <3D9530CA.F840FE9E@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------030408090600020406010904" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------030408090600020406010904 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry, Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted. I was going to wait a few days to respond in order to see what others on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue at hand. While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example, regarding the language used in the NION statement), still, it gets directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we seem to be at odds. Gary ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` Hi Aldo, Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of buddhism." Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the NION "Statement of Conscience" on the bootstrap list. I can't say that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience. But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote: > The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain > before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or will > he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring > terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which > case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be > "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. > "Good fortune"? What about weapons inspection? How clear is it that he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them, why should we be rushing into war--which might impel him to use them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India? A letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my view: > A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack on > Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will be > greater if we do than if we don't. > > It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us > otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives and > is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international political capital. > > If a solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we > should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to outwit > Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis. > > Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish > whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to > object arises from political considerations. > > We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to > raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential > hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with > the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources. I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press troubling. But I hope some other voice of reason rises in response to his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up. Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience. Gary Aldo de Moor wrote: >On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote: > >>Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G >> >>Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep trying >>to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in my >>work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as Sisyphus >>(Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1) preaching >>to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the "best >>and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding >>oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive. >> > >Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless >looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces below >the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in Europe >and, I'm sure, in the US as well. > >Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the >"Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode and >examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged assumptions. > >The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots of >reactionary people are afraid, and desperately looking for stability, >which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an easy >target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's keep >trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety. > >Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards your >goals, but be satisfied with being > involved in the process. Even if you >never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters. Persistence >pays. > >Take care, > >Aldo > >========================================================================== > ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl >IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 > |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor > >Dr. Aldo de Moor >Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University >PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands >========================================================================== > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > Gary. > > First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about George > W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's Saddam > Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") Which of > his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are personal? > > From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by > an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of > such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by > members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule with > an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological agents > during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he > financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in > attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking > sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he applies > his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to kill > people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that > pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in > attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they > are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed that > usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's seat. In > short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous person. Also > as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with him when his > time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his maniacal pursuit of > the war in Russia and his scorched-earth directive for the destruction > of Germany - which to Albert Speer's credit was not carried through. I > fear that Hussain will be no different. (I could also refer to such > stories as Iraqis murdering infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then > again, we subsequently learned that those stories were concocted by a > PR/advertising agency on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" > was having a helluva good time in Egypt while American troops were > drawing their line in the sand.) > > The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain > before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or will > he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring > terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which > case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be > "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. > > The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member > of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a > clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with > military action against Saddam Hussain. > > Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of > Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to > take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby > condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend > and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with > the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our > minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately strikes > me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts at > misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering and the > use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New York > Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the statement being > written by highly respected editorial writers, whereas the subsequent > lighter print tells us it is merely an advertisement. Then, further > catering to the readers' herd instinct, it tells us that "The New York > Times ad [ not simply "the ad"] features a diverse list of influential > names." > > It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better ways > for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their judgments. > Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform ourselves; how to > filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge the remaining > sober; and then, how to act. > > "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are inadequate > for dealing with urgent, complex problems. > > Henry > > > Gary Richmond wrote: > >> The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our Name) >> >> Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when >> their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark >> new measures of repression. >> >> The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to >> resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged >> since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people >> of the world. >> >> http://www.nion.us/ >> --------------030408090600020406010904 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry,

Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted.

I was going to wait a few days to respond  in order to see what others on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue at hand.

While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example, regarding the language used in the NION statement), still,  it gets directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we seem to be at odds.

Gary

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Hi Aldo,

Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of buddhism."

Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the NION "Statement of Conscience"  on the bootstrap list. I can't say that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience. But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote:

The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.

"Good fortune"?  What about weapons inspection?  How clear is it that he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them, why should we be rushing into war--which might impel him to use them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India?  A letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my view:

A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will be greater if we do than if we don't.

It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international political capital.

If a solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis.

Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to object arises from political considerations.

We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources.  
I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press troubling. But I hope some other voice of reason rises in response to his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up. Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience.

Gary



Aldo de Moor wrote:
On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote:

Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G

Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep trying
to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in my
work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as Sisyphus
(Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1) preaching
to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the "best
and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding
oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive.

Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless
looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces below
the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in Europe
and, I'm sure, in the US as well.

Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the
"Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode and
examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged assumptions.

The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots of
reactionary people are afraid, and desperately looking for stability,
which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an easy
target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's keep
trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety.

Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards your
goals, but be satisfied with being involved in the process. Even if you
never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters. Persistence
pays.

Take care,

Aldo

==========================================================================
---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl
IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069
|/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor

Dr. Aldo de Moor
Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University
PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands
==========================================================================





Henry K van Eyken wrote:
Gary.

First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are personal?

From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently learned that those stories were concocted by a PR/advertising agency on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in the sand.)

The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.

The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with military action against Saddam Hussain.

Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the statement being written by highly respected editorial writers, whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct, it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"] features a diverse list of influential names."

It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge the remaining sober; and then, how to act.

"Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems.

Henry
 

Gary Richmond wrote:

The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience"  NION (Not In Our Name)

Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression.

The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people of the world.

http://www.nion.us/


--------------030408090600020406010904-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 28 09:54:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 907E256FF9; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com [207.46.181.87]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4600856FF5 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 09:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.38.57]) by cpimssmtpu12.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Sat, 28 Sep 2002 10:12:02 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Cc: "Aldo de Moor" , Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 10:13:07 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) In-Reply-To: <3D95D5E4.3030502@rcn.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2002 17:12:02.0507 (UTC) FILETIME=[299DB9B0:01C26712] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I was going to respond to Henry off-list, and it seems that perhaps there is something to be gained by responding here. First, I am thankful for Henry's comments. And I was a little surprised by them. So, I was going to tell Henry that I find him a continuous source of surprises. I also want to rise in Henry's support. 1. First, whatever the press is telling us (and I don't have much idea -- I don't receive any newspaper and I don't have a television, though I do get a sense of what the public conversations are nonetheless), it is clear that Henry has spent some time exploring this topic on his own. It is not like he is repeating someone else's slogans without any consideration. He is certainly not being jingoistic about it (and I thought, somewhere, that I'd learned Henry lived in Canada). So, first, I think Henry deserves a reading that says this is Henry's thoughtful and concerned commentary and not some robotic parroting of a party line from somewhere. I don't subscribe to Henry's logic (i.e., separating Hussein from Iraq). I share some of his concerns on both sides of the issue. 2. There is a real tendency to treat this kind of thing as very black and white, and then, to make matters worse, to assume that those who have opposing concerns or even countervailing doubts as misguided (sometimes "sheep" comes into the labeling). I have stopped using electronic petition systems. Even when I use a system to draft a letter to my congressional representatives, I always rewrite it to express my particular views. I stopped using these systems because sometimes I can't tell what is forwarded in my name (e.g., I don't receive acknowledgment to me, which does occur when I contact my representatives directly via e-mail). I began to feel co-opted by these mechanisms and have stopped using them. 3. To make things perfectly clear, I am opposed to unilateral action against Iraq. I also find the posturing that is going on and the apparent intransigence of President Bush in the matter very discouraging, as I find the overall belligerence of our position. The initial response to 9-11 was not so violent and I am disappointed by the progression of the rhetoric. At the same time, I would not consider lending my name to "Not in Our Name." This *is* happening in my name. I get to deal with that. I don't find the Statement of Conscience to be constructive. It doesn't even propose actions that are consistent with our values and honoring of our form of government and the means of formulating and expressing our political will. 4. Gary, I get that this is a matter of conscience for you and that it pains you greatly to see us on a course that may have terrible and frightful consequences. I acknowledge your witness in the matter. And I say it is important, in these cases to not become what you despise out of "just" opposition. I am here mindful of the writings of the Dalai Lama shortly after 9/11. He cautioned us concerning expressions of self-hatred. It is important to be careful how one opposes those who propose violent means. "Being right" is being right whatever the claimed virtue of the objective. At sufficient distance and perspective, those who are being right about it are indistinguishable, whichever side of the dispute they are found to be on. I want to honor your expression of conscience. Thank you for that, and for having us stop and pay attention to the issues. Re-examination is always valuable for issues that go to the heart of our fundamental values and who we are in the world, individually and as communities and nations. -- Dennis PS: Shortly after 9-11, someone with a strong and unashamed military background attached the following snippet to a posting: "The problem with war is that it teaches the victor that violence succeeds." I say that "The greater problem with war that it teaches the vanquished that violence succeeds. Those claiming to be victims see only becoming the victor as their salvation. Every violent act by a lawful society is an expression of failure and defeat." -- dh -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Gary Richmond Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 09:17 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: Aldo de Moor Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name Henry, Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted. I was going to wait a few days to respond in order to see what others on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue at hand. [ ... ] I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press troubling. But I hope some other voice of reason rises in response to his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up. Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience. Gary [ ... ] Henry K van Eyken wrote: Gary. First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are personal? >From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by an Iraqi author - [ ... ] Henry Gary Richmond wrote: The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our Name) Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression. The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people of the world. http://www.nion.us/ From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 28 14:33:54 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 3D9A756FF9; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts5.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.25]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 44EA856FF5 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 14:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.172]) by tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020928215206.LDMA20369.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:52:06 -0400 Message-ID: <3D9623A0.737262C8@sympatico.ca> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:48:16 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name References: <3D94AA9E.1030605@rcn.com> <3D9530CA.F840FE9E@sympatico.ca> <3D95D5E4.3030502@rcn.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary and Dennis. I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it is most likely so because of our different sources of information and differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable facts. I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes? Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the democratic process. These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools. Henry Gary Richmond wrote: > Henry, > > Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not > In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted. > > I was going to wait a few days to respond in order to see what others > on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de > Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue > at hand. > > While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it > hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example, > regarding the language used in the NION statement), still, it gets > directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we > seem to be at odds. > > Gary > > ```` > ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` > > ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` > > Hi Aldo, > > Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are > appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of > buddhism." > > Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the > NION "Statement of Conscience" on the bootstrap list. I can't say > that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil > man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous > pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a > further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of > increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be > no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for > considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of > conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're > facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience. > But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote: > >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. > > "Good fortune"? What about weapons inspection? How clear is it that > he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi > "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like > so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed > by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had > these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them, > why should we be rushing into war--which might impel him to use > them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of > the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America > initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not > Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India? A > letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my > view: > >> A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack >> on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will >> be greater if we do than if we don't. >> >> It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us >> otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives >> and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international >> political capital. >> >> If a solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we >> should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to >> outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis. >> >> Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish >> whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to >> object arises from political considerations. >> We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to >> raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential >> hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with >> the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources. > > I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list > finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press > troubling. But I hope some other voice of reason rises in response to > his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up. > Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience. > > Gary > > > > Aldo de Moor wrote: > >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote: >> >> >> > Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G >> > >> > Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep >> > trying >> > to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in >> > my >> > work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as >> > Sisyphus >> > (Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1) >> > preaching >> > to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the >> > "best >> > and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding >> > oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive. >> > >> Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless >> looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces >> below >> the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in >> Europe >> and, I'm sure, in the US as well. >> >> Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the >> "Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode >> and >> examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged >> assumptions. >> >> The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots >> of >> reactionary people are afraid, and desperately looking for >> stability, >> which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an >> easy >> target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's >> keep >> trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety. >> >> Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards >> your >> goals, but be satisfied with being >> >> involved in the process. Even if you >> never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters. >> Persistence >> pays. >> >> Take care, >> >> Aldo >> >> ========================================================================== >> ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl >> IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 >> |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor >> >> Dr. Aldo de Moor >> Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg >> University >> PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands >> ========================================================================== >> >> >> > > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > >> Gary. >> >> First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about >> George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's >> Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") >> Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are >> personal? >> >> From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by >> an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of >> such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by >> members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule >> with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological >> agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he >> financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in >> attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking >> sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he >> applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to >> kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that >> pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in >> attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they >> are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed >> that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's >> seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous >> person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with >> him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his >> maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth >> directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's >> credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no >> different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering >> infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently >> learned that those stories were concocted by a PR/advertising agency >> on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva >> good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in >> the sand.) >> >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. >> >> The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member >> of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a >> clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with >> military action against Saddam Hussain. >> >> Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of >> Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to >> take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby >> condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend >> and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with >> the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our >> minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately >> strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts >> at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering >> and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New >> York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the >> statement being written by highly respected editorial writers, >> whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an >> advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct, >> it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"] >> features a diverse list of influential names." >> >> It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better >> ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their >> judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform >> ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge >> the remaining sober; and then, how to act. >> >> "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are >> inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems. >> >> Henry >> >> >> Gary Richmond wrote: >> >> > The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our >> > Name) >> > >> > Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing >> > when their government declared a war without limit and instituted >> > stark new measures of repression. >> > >> > The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to >> > resist the policies and overall political direction that have >> > emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to >> > the people of the world. >> > >> > http://www.nion.us/ >> --------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary and Dennis.

I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it is most likely so because of our different sources of information and differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable facts.

I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes?

Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the democratic process.

These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools.

Henry
 
 

Gary Richmond wrote:

Henry,

Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted.

I was going to wait a few days to respond  in order to see what others on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue at hand.

While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example, regarding the language used in the NION statement), still,  it gets directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we seem to be at odds.

Gary

`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Hi Aldo,

Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of buddhism."

Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the NION "Statement of Conscience"  on the bootstrap list. I can't say that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience. But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote:

The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.
"Good fortune"?  What about weapons inspection?  How clear is it that he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them, why should we be rushing into war--which might impel him to use them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India?  A letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my view:
A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will be greater if we do than if we don't.

It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international political capital.

If a solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis.

Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to object arises from political considerations.
We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources.

I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press troubling. But I hope some other voice of reason rises in response to his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up. Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience.

Gary
 
 

Aldo de Moor wrote:

On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote:

Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G

Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep trying
to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in my
work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as Sisyphus
(Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1) preaching
to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the "best
and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding
oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive.

Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless
looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces below
the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in Europe
and, I'm sure, in the US as well.

Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the
"Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode and
examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged assumptions.

The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots of
reactionary people are afraid, and desperately looking for stability,
which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an easy
target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's keep
trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety.

Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards your
goals, but be satisfied with being

 involved in the process. Even if you
never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters. Persistence
pays.

Take care,

Aldo

==========================================================================
  ---///     e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl
IN|F/OLAB    phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069
  |///       home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor

Dr. Aldo de Moor
Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg University
PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands
==========================================================================



 

Henry K van Eyken wrote:

Gary.

First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are personal?

From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently learned that those stories were concocted by a PR/advertising agency on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in the sand.)

The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.

The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with military action against Saddam Hussain.

Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the statement being written by highly respected editorial writers, whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct, it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"] features a diverse list of influential names."

It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge the remaining sober; and then, how to act.

"Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems.

Henry
 

Gary Richmond wrote:

The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience"  NION (Not In Our Name)

Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing when their government declared a war without limit and instituted stark new measures of repression.

The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to resist the policies and overall political direction that have emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to the people of the world.

http://www.nion.us/

--------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Sep 28 21:09:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4D57456FF9; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:09:10 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DC9B956FF5 for ; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from collaboratory ([63.197.14.24]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H3600KVZN1PPV@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org; Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 21:27:19 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] =?us-ascii?Q?=22She_goes_not_abroad_in_search_of_monsters_to_destroy.=22_?= In-reply-to: <3D9623A0.737262C8@sympatico.ca> To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <000c01c26770$7ffd9b00$180ec53f@collaboratory> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_h0aOKsYUd1csU3ntXdsH3w)" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_h0aOKsYUd1csU3ntXdsH3w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Greetings - Allow me to tap this thread. First, in the grand scheme of things, an attack to unseat Iraq's leadership, is wrong, foolish and inevitable. In my judgment, what's driving this is four-fold, as follows - 1.) Iraq harbors a flourishing and legitimate middle-class. It is profoundly necessary for Middle East stability. However, 1 in 5 are in exile. 2 out of 3 have lost family members. They're very pissed. 2.) 500K Iraqi infants, children and aged have perished in the last 9 years, due to the criminal U.N. sanctions, inaction and the flaccid 'global community.' 3.) Oil. This scenario, a crackpot overlooking G8 heroin, is the staple of every War College simulation known to man. 4.) The U.N., IMF, WTO, GATT, NAFTA, and other planks oft the NWO. Cries of USA unilateralism are really stupid. If the USA was blessedly unilateral, she would NOT be in this mess in the first place. Empire never works, as history has painfully shown over and over and over (sic) again. The table is set, and the wine is poured. The forthcoming action will hardly be a 'war.' Sadly, it'll be over before you can say Theodore 'Teddy' Roosevelt. Thank you very much. All the arrogant globalists in Geneva and on 1st Avenue have been served a bitter pill, and it is high time to wise up, accept the ugly consequences, and begin to reform and retire their sickening 'we-are-the-world' bureaucracies. Quite frankly, the world is not mature enough to lead itself. -jtm P.S. -- In 1821, when the Greeks were fighting the Ottoman Turks in their own war for independence, the USA's finest Secretary of State, John Quincy Adams wrote, "Wherever the standard of freedom shall be unfurled, there will America's heart, her benedictions, and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy." This holds. Big Time. What the goofy opponents miscast as isolationism (?) is the last line of defense between America's superpower status and the fate of empires past. Please. Get with it! Ciao. -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Henry K van Eyken Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 2:48 PM To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name Gary and Dennis. I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it is most likely so because of our different sources of information and differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable facts. I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes? Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the democratic process. These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools. Henry .us/ --Boundary_(ID_h0aOKsYUd1csU3ntXdsH3w) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message
Greetings -
 
Allow me to tap this thread.
 
First, in the grand scheme of things, an attack to unseat Iraq's leadership, is wrong, foolish and inevitable.
 
In my judgment, what's driving this is four-fold, as follows -
 
1.) Iraq harbors a flourishing and legitimate middle-class. It is profoundly necessary for Middle East stability. However, 1 in 5 are in exile. 2 out of 3 have lost family members. They're very pissed.
 
2.) 500K Iraqi infants, children and aged have perished in the last 9 years, due to the criminal U.N. sanctions, inaction and the flaccid 'global community.'
 
3.) Oil. This scenario, a crackpot overlooking G8 heroin, is the staple of every War College simulation known to man.
 
4.) The U.N., IMF, WTO, GATT, NAFTA, and other planks oft the NWO. Cries of USA unilateralism are really stupid. If the USA was blessedly unilateral, she would NOT be in this mess in the first place. Empire never works, as history has painfully shown over and over and over (sic) again.
 
The table is set, and the wine is poured.  The forthcoming action will hardly be a 'war.' Sadly, it'll be over before you can say Theodore 'Teddy' Roosevelt. Thank you very much.
 
All the arrogant globalists in Geneva and on 1st Avenue have been served a bitter pill, and it is high time to wise up, accept the ugly consequences, and begin to reform and retire their sickening 'we-are-the-world' bureaucracies.
 
Quite frankly, the world is not mature enough to lead itself.
 
-jtm
 
 
P.S. -- In 1821, when the Greeks were fighting the Ottoman Turks in their own war for independence, the USA's finest Secretary of State, John Quincy Adams wrote,
 
“Wherever the standard of freedom shall be unfurled, there will America’s heart, her benedictions, and her prayers be.  But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy.” 
 
This holds. Big Time.
 
 What the goofy opponents miscast as isolationism (?) is the last line of defense between America’s superpower status and the fate of empires past. Please.
 
Get with it!
 
Ciao.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Henry K van Eyken
Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2002 2:48 PM
To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org
Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name

Gary and Dennis.

I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it is most likely so because of our different sources of information and differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable facts.

I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes?

Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the democratic process.

These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools.

Henry 
 
.us/

--Boundary_(ID_h0aOKsYUd1csU3ntXdsH3w)-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 08:56:57 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 33D9056FFA; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 08:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tpol.peak.org (tpol.peak.org [198.88.144.55]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BAFEF56FF9 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 08:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tpol.peak.org (sechrest@localhost) by tpol.peak.org (8.11.2/8.11.2) with ESMTP id g8TGFAC16000 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 09:15:10 -0700 Message-Id: <200209291615.g8TGFAC16000@tpol.peak.org> To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name In-reply-to: Your message of Sat, 28 Sep 2002 17:48:16 EDT. <3D9623A0.737262C8@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 09:15:10 -0700 From: John Sechrest Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Following this thought of building tools to support a greater understanding, I have always found that it is easier to build a tool if you understand what the task is and do it by hand first. So, since we are wanting to do a debate/discussion better, What if you took this Iraq question and followed the appropriate process using the tools that we have. Can we emulate via HTML a sufficiently rich example of a good debate/discussion which would illustrate the goal that you have? If so...l What are the first three steps to doing it? Henry K van Eyken writes: % % --------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A % Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii % Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit % % Gary and Dennis. % % I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other % than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it % is most likely so because of our different sources of information and % differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are % mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable % facts. % % I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter % weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and % use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we % arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes? % % Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with % different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems % in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas % are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged % in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more % reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the % democratic process. % % These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain % crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will % be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with % the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources % available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make % some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools. % % Henry % % % % Gary Richmond wrote: % % > Henry, % > % > Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not % > In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted. % > % > I was going to wait a few days to respond in order to see what others % > on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de % > Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue % > at hand. % > % > While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it % > hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example, % > regarding the language used in the NION statement), still, it gets % > directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we % > seem to be at odds. % > % > Gary % > % > ```` % > ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` % > % > ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` % > % > Hi Aldo, % > % > Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are % > appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of % > buddhism." % > % > Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the % > NION "Statement of Conscience" on the bootstrap list. I can't say % > that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil % > man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous % > pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a % > further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of % > increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be % > no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for % > considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of % > conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're % > facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience. % > But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote: % > % >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. % > % > "Good fortune"? What about weapons inspection? How clear is it that % > he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi % > "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like % > so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed % > by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had % > these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them, % > why should we be rushing into war--which might impel him to use % > them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of % > the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America % > initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not % > Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India? A % > letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my % > view: % > % >> A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack % >> on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will % >> be greater if we do than if we don't. % >> % >> It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us % >> otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives % >> and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international % >> political capital. % >> % >> If a solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we % >> should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to % >> outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis. % >> % >> Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish % >> whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to % >> object arises from political considerations. % >> We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to % >> raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential % >> hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with % >> the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources. % > % > I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list % > finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press % > troubling. But I hope some other voice of reason rises in response to % > his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up. % > Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience. % > % > Gary % > % > % > % > Aldo de Moor wrote: % > % >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote: % >> % >> % >> > Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G % >> > % >> > Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep % >> > trying % >> > to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in % >> > my % >> > work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as % >> > Sisyphus % >> > (Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1) % >> > preaching % >> > to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the % >> > "best % >> > and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding % >> > oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive. % >> > % >> Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless % >> looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces % >> below % >> the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in % >> Europe % >> and, I'm sure, in the US as well. % >> % >> Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the % >> "Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode % >> and % >> examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged % >> assumptions. % >> % >> The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots % >> of % >> reactionary people are afraid, and desperately looking for % >> stability, % >> which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an % >> easy % >> target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's % >> keep % >> trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety. % >> % >> Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards % >> your % >> goals, but be satisfied with being % >> % >> involved in the process. Even if you % >> never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters. % >> Persistence % >> pays. % >> % >> Take care, % >> % >> Aldo % >> % >> ========================================================================== % >> ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl % >> IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 % >> |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor % >> % >> Dr. Aldo de Moor % >> Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg % >> University % >> PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands % >> ========================================================================== % >> % >> % >> % > % > % > % > Henry K van Eyken wrote: % > % >> Gary. % >> % >> First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about % >> George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's % >> Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") % >> Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are % >> personal? % >> % >> From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by % >> an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of % >> such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by % >> members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule % >> with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological % >> agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he % >> financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in % >> attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking % >> sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he % >> applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to % >> kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that % >> pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in % >> attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they % >> are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed % >> that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's % >> seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous % >> person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with % >> him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his % >> maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth % >> directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's % >> credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no % >> different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering % >> infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently % >> learned that those stories were concocted by a PR/advertising agency % >> on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva % >> good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in % >> the sand.) % >> % >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. % >> % >> The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member % >> of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a % >> clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with % >> military action against Saddam Hussain. % >> % >> Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of % >> Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to % >> take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby % >> condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend % >> and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with % >> the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our % >> minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately % >> strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts % >> at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering % >> and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New % >> York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the % >> statement being written by highly respected editorial writers, % >> whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an % >> advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct, % >> it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"] % >> features a diverse list of influential names." % >> % >> It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better % >> ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their % >> judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform % >> ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge % >> the remaining sober; and then, how to act. % >> % >> "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are % >> inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems. % >> % >> Henry % >> % >> % >> Gary Richmond wrote: % >> % >> > The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our % >> > Name) % >> > % >> > Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing % >> > when their government declared a war without limit and instituted % >> > stark new measures of repression. % >> > % >> > The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to % >> > resist the policies and overall political direction that have % >> > emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to % >> > the people of the world. % >> > % >> > http://www.nion.us/ ----- John Sechrest . Helping people use CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet Public Electronic . more effectively Access to Knowledge,Inc . 1600 SW Western ,suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 10:36:44 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2CF5F56FFA; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts12.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.56]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54BBB56FF4 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:36:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.120]) by tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020929175500.JIQJ4068.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 13:55:00 -0400 Message-ID: <3D973D8D.5509721@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 13:51:09 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name References: <200209291615.g8TGFAC16000@tpol.peak.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org John. A superb, stimulating question! And one, I imagine, you already must have given thought to yourself - upon reading your affiliation (Public Electronic Access to Knowledge,Inc) and the organization's aim ("Helping people use computers and the Internet more effectively"). Living rather isolated from th world, except for the Internet connection, I have had in mind for some time to find out if a person or persons in this group cared to write a users' guide to search engines so as to provide a better insight in how info is gathered. Also, we would want to know more about any filters in the system to learn more about what promotes and what resists flow of information. We need to know more about sources (reliability) of information. Off hand, only one study comes to mind, about the trustworthyness of health information, done by the Pew Institute, which I haven't read yet, but will turn to. We (myself, Jack and a frind) recently visited a Dr. Lawrence Weed, the author of the Problem-Knowledge Coupler, a software that links medical diagnostic observations to the medical literature, a scheme that makes use of a team of experts continually scanning the literature. (More: www.pkc.com) We were assured that this technique ought have wide applicability and I am just waiting for some inspiration of how we can get into this deeper and ruitfully. From your affiliation, John, I should think you may want to contact Dr. Weed's group (in Burlington, Vt). Another, quite different, avenue t be explored is to look at a non-profit organization of investigative journalists. They have published materials on political corruption and commercial practices as employed by the tobacco industry, among others. I have reference to this somewhere in my system, just need digging it out. All in all, we would as a first step build some sense of the scope of the problem. Another approach is one as suggested by you: analyzing a conundrum such as the Iraqi go-or-no-go issue, or such issues as the credibility of environmental futurist scenarios. So, I realize that you were pushing for something more concrete in a step-1, step-2, step-3 way. I haven't gotten there yet except for that very obvious sine-qua-non, the need for voting individuals worldwide to have full access to the WWW and information as to how to use that access as effectively as possible. Which, of course, ties in with "helping people to use computers and the Internet more effectiely." I certainly will give your question more thought and I hope that others on this forum will do so as well - stumbling toward solutions. Henry John Sechrest wrote: > Following this thought of building tools to > support a greater understanding, I have always found > that it is easier to build a tool if you understand what > the task is and do it by hand first. > > So, since we are wanting to do a debate/discussion better, > What if you took this Iraq question and followed the > appropriate process using the tools that we have. > > Can we emulate via HTML a sufficiently rich example of > a good debate/discussion which would illustrate the > goal that you have? > > If so...l What are the first three steps to doing it? > > Henry K van Eyken writes: > > % > % --------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A > % Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > % Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > % > % Gary and Dennis. > % > % I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other > % than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it > % is most likely so because of our different sources of information and > % differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are > % mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable > % facts. > % > % I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter > % weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and > % use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we > % arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes? > % > % Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with > % different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems > % in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas > % are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged > % in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more > % reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the > % democratic process. > % > % These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain > % crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will > % be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with > % the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources > % available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make > % some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools. > % > % Henry > % > % > % > % Gary Richmond wrote: > % > % > Henry, > % > > % > Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not > % > In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted. > % > > % > I was going to wait a few days to respond in order to see what others > % > on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de > % > Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue > % > at hand. > % > > % > While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it > % > hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example, > % > regarding the language used in the NION statement), still, it gets > % > directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we > % > seem to be at odds. > % > > % > Gary > % > > % > ```` > % > ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` > % > > % > ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` > % > > % > Hi Aldo, > % > > % > Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are > % > appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of > % > buddhism." > % > > % > Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the > % > NION "Statement of Conscience" on the bootstrap list. I can't say > % > that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil > % > man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous > % > pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a > % > further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of > % > increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be > % > no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for > % > considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of > % > conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're > % > facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience. > % > But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote: > % > > % >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain > % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or > % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring > % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which > % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be > % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. > % > > % > "Good fortune"? What about weapons inspection? How clear is it that > % > he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi > % > "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like > % > so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed > % > by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had > % > these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them, > % > why should we be rushing into war--which might impel him to use > % > them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of > % > the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America > % > initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not > % > Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India? A > % > letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my > % > view: > % > > % >> A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack > % >> on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will > % >> be greater if we do than if we don't. > % >> > % >> It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us > % >> otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives > % >> and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international > % >> political capital. > % >> > % >> If a solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we > % >> should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to > % >> outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis. > % >> > % >> Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish > % >> whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to > % >> object arises from political considerations. > % >> We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to > % >> raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential > % >> hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with > % >> the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources. > % > > % > I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list > % > finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press > % > troubling. But I hope some other voice of reason rises in response to > % > his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up. > % > Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience. > % > > % > Gary > % > > % > > % > > % > Aldo de Moor wrote: > % > > % >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote: > % >> > % >> > % >> > Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G > % >> > > % >> > Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep > % >> > trying > % >> > to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in > % >> > my > % >> > work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as > % >> > Sisyphus > % >> > (Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1) > % >> > preaching > % >> > to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the > % >> > "best > % >> > and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding > % >> > oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive. > % >> > > % >> Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless > % >> looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces > % >> below > % >> the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in > % >> Europe > % >> and, I'm sure, in the US as well. > % >> > % >> Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the > % >> "Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode > % >> and > % >> examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged > % >> assumptions. > % >> > % >> The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots > % >> of > % >> reactionary people are afraid, and desperately looking for > % >> stability, > % >> which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an > % >> easy > % >> target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's > % >> keep > % >> trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety. > % >> > % >> Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards > % >> your > % >> goals, but be satisfied with being > % >> > % >> involved in the process. Even if you > % >> never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters. > % >> Persistence > % >> pays. > % >> > % >> Take care, > % >> > % >> Aldo > % >> > % >> ========================================================================== > % >> ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl > % >> IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 > % >> |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor > % >> > % >> Dr. Aldo de Moor > % >> Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg > % >> University > % >> PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands > % >> ========================================================================== > % >> > % >> > % >> > % > > % > > % > > % > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > % > > % >> Gary. > % >> > % >> First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about > % >> George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's > % >> Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") > % >> Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are > % >> personal? > % >> > % >> From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by > % >> an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of > % >> such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by > % >> members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule > % >> with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological > % >> agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he > % >> financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in > % >> attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking > % >> sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he > % >> applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to > % >> kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that > % >> pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in > % >> attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they > % >> are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed > % >> that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's > % >> seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous > % >> person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with > % >> him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his > % >> maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth > % >> directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's > % >> credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no > % >> different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering > % >> infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently > % >> learned that those stories were concocted by a PR/advertising agency > % >> on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva > % >> good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in > % >> the sand.) > % >> > % >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain > % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or > % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring > % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which > % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be > % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. > % >> > % >> The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member > % >> of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a > % >> clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with > % >> military action against Saddam Hussain. > % >> > % >> Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of > % >> Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to > % >> take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby > % >> condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend > % >> and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with > % >> the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our > % >> minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately > % >> strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts > % >> at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering > % >> and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New > % >> York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the > % >> statement being written by highly respected editorial writers, > % >> whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an > % >> advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct, > % >> it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"] > % >> features a diverse list of influential names." > % >> > % >> It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better > % >> ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their > % >> judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform > % >> ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge > % >> the remaining sober; and then, how to act. > % >> > % >> "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are > % >> inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems. > % >> > % >> Henry > % >> > % >> > % >> Gary Richmond wrote: > % >> > % >> > The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our > % >> > Name) > % >> > > % >> > Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing > % >> > when their government declared a war without limit and instituted > % >> > stark new measures of repression. > % >> > > % >> > The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to > % >> > resist the policies and overall political direction that have > % >> > emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to > % >> > the people of the world. > % >> > > % >> > http://www.nion.us/ > > ----- > John Sechrest . Helping people use > CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet > Public Electronic . more effectively > Access to Knowledge,Inc . > 1600 SW Western ,suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org > Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 > . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 10:42:57 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 647D756FFC; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from txsmtp01.texas.rr.com (smtp1.texas.rr.com [24.93.36.229]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BD98F56FFA; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from linux (cs662583-231.satx.rr.com [66.25.83.231]) by txsmtp01.texas.rr.com (8.12.5/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g8TI0Jss026611; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 14:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From: Matthew Schneider To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Granular Addressability in TEXT documents - ON THE FLY! Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 13:02:07 -0500 X-Mailer: KMail [version 1.4] Cc: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org, ppj@concept67.fsnet.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <200209291302.07895.matsch@sasites.com> Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org DISCLAIMER: I submitted a very similar "solution" several weeks ago to th= e=20 ba-unrev-talk mail list. At the time of the submittal I asked if anyone was aware of similar "solutions". No one replied in the affirmative and the solution got good=20 reviews from those who responded. Responses from two well respected participants of the mail list (Eric Armstrong and Eugene Eric Kim, both v= ery familiar with this subject) were particularly enthusiastic. Because of this, I have been led to believe that this is potentially very important to the resolution of the subject issue. As such I am submitting this new but anticipated twist (suggested by "Peter Jones"=20 ) for your consideration and opinion. Please excuse my ignorance if you find it to be trivial. ---- message start ---- Ted Nelson says: "The most important thing is to re-introduce the concept of deep quotability to hypertext": http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/pstxt.php?theurl=3Dhttp://ted.hyperland.= com/quotableformat.txt#purp6=20 and he implores: "Markup must not be embedded": (http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/pstxt.php?theurl=3Dhttp://ted.hyperland= =2Ecom/buyin.txt#purp36) This solution addresses both of those issues and in so doing unlocks mill= ions of text documents making it possible to HYPERLINK TO ANY LINE OF ANY DOCU= MENT. Point this form at a text file (http or ftp accessible): http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/pstxt.php Here's a sample if you don't have a text file handy (thanks to Peter Jone= s): http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/pstxt.php?theurl=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Flpf.ai.m= it.edu%2FPatents%2Fknuth-to-pto.txt For fun, here's a deep link to Walt Whitman's "A Noiseless Patient Spider= ", compliments of Project Gutenberg (big file, 4MB or so, may take a minute)= : http://mas.homelinux.net/~matsch/pstxt.php?theurl=3Dhttp://www.ibiblio.or= g/gutenberg/etext98/lvgrs10.txt#purp43560 Please point out previous similar solutions if you are aware of them. Best regards, Matthew A. Schneider From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 15:33:31 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 52BC256FF9; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2953556FF4 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 15:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-105.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.105] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17vmue-0005Wx-00; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 18:51:44 -0400 Message-ID: <3D9783F4.6060203@rcn.com> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 18:51:32 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name References: <200209291615.g8TGFAC16000@tpol.peak.org> <3D973D8D.5509721@sympatico.ca> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------090202040500080704090805" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------090202040500080704090805 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Henry, You wrote in an earlier post addressed to Dennis and me, following Dennis' infinitely reasonable, balanced and supportive comments, that such differences of opinion/judgment among thoughtful men > . . . are mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, > verifiable facts. > > I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter > weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design > and use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can > we arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes? > > Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with > different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex > problems in as short an order as possible. That is what his > OHS/Hyperscope ideas are about. From my own side, I believe that we > ought be actively engaged in arriving at better ways for individual > citizens to arrive at more reliable assessments on which to base our > atitude and conduct in the democratic process. > > . . . with the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the > resources available to us, we should be in as good a position as any > group to make some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools. > and almost at once--as if to begin to validate this last point-- John posted his truly "superb, stimulating" question, followed quickly by your equally stimulating initial response. This is the kind of activity that IMO makes this list unique--that there is a pragmatic attempt made here to go beyond the mere expression of opinion in mere discussion to actually improving the means to "Making Doug's Dream Come True" (in Aldo de Moor's formulation, the title of his ICCS02 PORT workshop paper). May we continue to work together to that end. Gary Henry K van Eyken wrote: >John. > >A superb, stimulating question! And one, I imagine, you already must have given thought to yourself - upon reading >your affiliation (Public Electronic Access to Knowledge,Inc) and the organization's aim ("Helping people use >computers and the Internet more effectively"). > >Living rather isolated from th world, except for the Internet connection, I have had in mind for some time to find >out if a person or persons in this group cared to write a users' guide to search engines so as to provide a better >insight in how info is gathered. Also, we would want to know more about any filters in the system to learn more about >what promotes and what resists flow of information. We need to know more about sources (reliability) of information. >Off hand, only one study comes to mind, about the trustworthyness of health information, done by the Pew Institute, >which I haven't read yet, but will turn to. > >We (myself, Jack and a frind) recently visited a Dr. Lawrence Weed, the author of the Problem-Knowledge Coupler, a >software that links medical diagnostic observations to the medical literature, a scheme that makes use of a team of >experts continually scanning the literature. (More: www.pkc.com) We were assured that this technique ought have wide >applicability and I am just waiting for some inspiration of how we can get into this deeper and ruitfully. From your >affiliation, John, I should think you may want to contact Dr. Weed's group (in Burlington, Vt). > >Another, quite different, avenue t be explored is to look at a non-profit organization of investigative journalists. >They have published materials on political corruption and commercial practices as employed by the tobacco industry, >among others. I have reference to this somewhere in my system, just need digging it out. > >All in all, we would as a first step build some sense of the scope of the problem. > >Another approach is one as suggested by you: analyzing a conundrum such as the Iraqi go-or-no-go issue, or such >issues as the credibility of environmental futurist scenarios. > >So, I realize that you were pushing for something more concrete in a step-1, step-2, step-3 way. I haven't gotten >there yet except for that very obvious sine-qua-non, the need for voting individuals worldwide to have full access to >the WWW and information as to how to use that access as effectively as possible. Which, of course, ties in with >"helping people to use computers and the Internet more effectiely." > >I certainly will give your question more thought and I hope that others on this forum will do so as well - stumbling >toward solutions. > >Henry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >John Sechrest wrote: > >>Following this thought of building tools to >>support a greater understanding, I have always found >>that it is easier to build a tool if you understand what >>the task is and do it by hand first. >> >>So, since we are wanting to do a debate/discussion better, >>What if you took this Iraq question and followed the >>appropriate process using the tools that we have. >> >>Can we emulate via HTML a sufficiently rich example of >>a good debate/discussion which would illustrate the >>goal that you have? >> >>If so...l What are the first three steps to doing it? >> >>Henry K van Eyken writes: >> >> % >> % --------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A >> % Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> % Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> % >> % Gary and Dennis. >> % >> % I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other >> % than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it >> % is most likely so because of our different sources of information and >> % differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are >> % mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable >> % facts. >> % >> % I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter >> % weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and >> % use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we >> % arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes? >> % >> % Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with >> % different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems >> % in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas >> % are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged >> % in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more >> % reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the >> % democratic process. >> % >> % These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain >> % crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will >> % be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with >> % the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources >> % available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make >> % some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools. >> % >> % Henry >> % >> % >> % >> % Gary Richmond wrote: >> % >> % > Henry, >> % > >> % > Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not >> % > In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted. >> % > >> % > I was going to wait a few days to respond in order to see what others >> % > on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de >> % > Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue >> % > at hand. >> % > >> % > While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it >> % > hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example, >> % > regarding the language used in the NION statement), still, it gets >> % > directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we >> % > seem to be at odds. >> % > >> % > Gary >> % > >> % > ```` >> % > ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` >> % > >> % > ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` >> % > >> % > Hi Aldo, >> % > >> % > Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are >> % > appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of >> % > buddhism." >> % > >> % > Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the >> % > NION "Statement of Conscience" on the bootstrap list. I can't say >> % > that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil >> % > man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous >> % > pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a >> % > further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of >> % > increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be >> % > no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for >> % > considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of >> % > conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're >> % > facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience. >> % > But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote: >> % > >> % >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain >> % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or >> % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring >> % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which >> % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be >> % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. >> % > >> % > "Good fortune"? What about weapons inspection? How clear is it that >> % > he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi >> % > "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like >> % > so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed >> % > by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had >> % > these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them, >> % > why should we be rushing into war--which might impel him to use >> % > them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of >> % > the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America >> % > initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not >> % > Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India? A >> % > letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my >> % > view: >> % > >> % >> A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack >> % >> on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will >> % >> be greater if we do than if we don't. >> % >> >> % >> It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us >> % >> otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives >> % >> and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international >> % >> political capital. >> % >> >> % >> If a solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we >> % >> should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to >> % >> outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis. >> % >> >> % >> Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish >> % >> whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to >> % >> object arises from political considerations. >> % >> We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to >> % >> raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential >> % >> hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with >> % >> the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources. >> % > >> % > I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list >> % > finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press >> % > troubling. But I hope some other voice of reason rises in response to >> % > his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up. >> % > Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience. >> % > >> % > Gary >> % > >> % > >> % > >> % > Aldo de Moor wrote: >> % > >> % >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote: >> % >> >> % >> >> % >> > Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G >> % >> > >> % >> > Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep >> % >> > trying >> % >> > to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in >> % >> > my >> % >> > work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as >> % >> > Sisyphus >> % >> > (Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1) >> % >> > preaching >> % >> > to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the >> % >> > "best >> % >> > and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding >> % >> > oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive. >> % >> > >> % >> Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless >> % >> looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces >> % >> below >> % >> the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in >> % >> Europe >> % >> and, I'm sure, in the US as well. >> % >> >> % >> Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the >> % >> "Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode >> % >> and >> % >> examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged >> % >> assumptions. >> % >> >> % >> The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots >> % >> of >> % >> reactionary people are afraid, and desperately looking for >> % >> stability, >> % >> which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an >> % >> easy >> % >> target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's >> % >> keep >> % >> trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety. >> % >> >> % >> Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards >> % >> your >> % >> goals, but be satisfied with being >> % >> >> % >> involved in the process. Even if you >> % >> never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters. >> % >> Persistence >> % >> pays. >> % >> >> % >> Take care, >> % >> >> % >> Aldo >> % >> >> % >> ========================================================================== >> % >> ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl >> % >> IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 >> % >> |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor >> % >> >> % >> Dr. Aldo de Moor >> % >> Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg >> % >> University >> % >> PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands >> % >> ========================================================================== >> % >> >> % >> >> % >> >> % > >> % > >> % > >> % > Henry K van Eyken wrote: >> % > >> % >> Gary. >> % >> >> % >> First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about >> % >> George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's >> % >> Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.") >> % >> Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are >> % >> personal? >> % >> >> % >> From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by >> % >> an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of >> % >> such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by >> % >> members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule >> % >> with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological >> % >> agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he >> % >> financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in >> % >> attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking >> % >> sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he >> % >> applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to >> % >> kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that >> % >> pictures and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in >> % >> attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they >> % >> are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed >> % >> that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's >> % >> seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous >> % >> person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with >> % >> him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his >> % >> maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth >> % >> directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's >> % >> credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no >> % >> different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering >> % >> infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently >> % >> learned that those stories were concocted by a PR/advertising agency >> % >> on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva >> % >> good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in >> % >> the sand.) >> % >> >> % >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain >> % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or >> % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring >> % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which >> % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be >> % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. >> % >> >> % >> The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member >> % >> of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a >> % >> clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with >> % >> military action against Saddam Hussain. >> % >> >> % >> Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of >> % >> Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to >> % >> take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby >> % >> condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend >> % >> and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with >> % >> the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our >> % >> minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately >> % >> strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts >> % >> at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering >> % >> and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New >> % >> York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the >> % >> statement being written by highly respected editorial writers, >> % >> whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an >> % >> advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct, >> % >> it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"] >> % >> features a diverse list of influential names." >> % >> >> % >> It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better >> % >> ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their >> % >> judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform >> % >> ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge >> % >> the remaining sober; and then, how to act. >> % >> >> % >> "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are >> % >> inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems. >> % >> >> % >> Henry >> % >> >> % >> >> % >> Gary Richmond wrote: >> % >> >> % >> > The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our >> % >> > Name) >> % >> > >> % >> > Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing >> % >> > when their government declared a war without limit and instituted >> % >> > stark new measures of repression. >> % >> > >> % >> > The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to >> % >> > resist the policies and overall political direction that have >> % >> > emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to >> % >> > the people of the world. >> % >> > >> % >> > http://www.nion.us/ >> >>----- >>John Sechrest . Helping people use >>CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet >>Public Electronic . more effectively >>Access to Knowledge,Inc . >>1600 SW Western ,suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org >>Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325 >> . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest >> > > --------------090202040500080704090805 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Henry,

You wrote in an earlier post addressed to Dennis and me, following Dennis' infinitely reasonable, balanced and supportive comments, that such differences of opinion/judgment among thoughtful men
. . . are mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable facts.

I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes?

Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the democratic process.

. . . with the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools.

and almost at once--as if to begin to validate this last point-- John posted his truly "superb, stimulating" question, followed quickly by your equally stimulating initial response.

This is the kind of  activity that IMO makes this list unique--that there is a pragmatic attempt made here to go beyond the mere expression of opinion in mere discussion to actually improving the means to "Making Doug's Dream Come True" (in Aldo de Moor's formulation, the title of his ICCS02 PORT workshop paper).
May we continue to work together to that end.

Gary 



Henry K van Eyken wrote:
John.

A superb, stimulating question! And one, I imagine, you already must have given thought to yourself - upon reading
your affiliation (Public Electronic Access to Knowledge,Inc) and the organization's aim ("Helping people use
computers and the Internet more effectively").

Living rather isolated from th world, except for the Internet connection, I have had in mind for some time to find
out if a person or persons in this group cared to write a users' guide to search engines so as to provide a better
insight in how info is gathered. Also, we would want to know more about any filters in the system to learn more about
what promotes and what resists flow of information. We need to know more about sources (reliability) of information.
Off hand, only one study comes to mind, about the trustworthyness of health information, done by the Pew Institute,
which I haven't read yet, but will turn to.

We (myself, Jack and a fri nd) recently visited a Dr. Lawrence Weed, the author of the Problem-Knowledge Coupler, a
software that links medical diagnostic observations to the medical literature, a scheme that makes use of a team of
experts continually scanning the literature. (More: www.pkc.com) We were assured that this technique ought have wide
applicability and I am just waiting for some inspiration of how we can get into this deeper and ruitfully. From your
affiliation, John, I should think you may want to contact Dr. Weed's group (in Burlington, Vt).

Another, quite different, avenue t be explored is to look at a non-profit organization of investigative journalists.
They have published materials on political corruption and commercial practices as employed by the tobacco industry,
among others. I have reference to this somewhere in my system, just need digging it out.

All in all, we would as a first ste p build some sense of the scope of the problem.

Another approach is one as suggested by you: analyzing a conundrum such as the Iraqi go-or-no-go issue, or such
issues as the credibility of environmental futurist scenarios.

So, I realize that you were pushing for something more concrete in a step-1, step-2, step-3 way. I haven't gotten
there yet except for that very obvious sine-qua-non, the need for voting individuals worldwide to have full access to
the WWW and information as to how to use that access as effectively as possible. Which, of course, ties in with
"helping people to use computers and the Internet more effectiely."

I certainly will give your question more thought and I hope that others on this forum will do so as well - stumbling
toward solutions.

Henry














John Sechrest wrote:

Following this thought of building tools to
support a greater understanding, I have always found
that it is easier to build a tool if you understand what
the task is and do it by hand first.

So, since we are wanting to do a debate/discussion better,
What if you took this Iraq question and followed the
appropriate process using the tools that we have.

Can we emulate via HTML a sufficiently rich example of
a good debate/discussion which would illustrate the
goal that you have?

If so...l What are the first three steps to doing it?

Henry K van Eyken <vaneyken@sympatico.ca> writes:

%
% --------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A
% Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
% Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
%
% Gary and Dennis.
%
% I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other
% than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it
% is most likely so because of our different sources of information and
% differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are
% mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable
% facts.
%
% I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter
% weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and
% use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we
% arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes?
%
% Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with
% different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems
% in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas
% are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged
% in arriving at better ways for individual citizens t o arrive at more
% reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the
% democratic process.
%
% These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain
% crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will
% be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with
% the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources
% available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make
% some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools.
%
% Henry
%
%
%
% Gary Richmond wrote:
%
% > Henry,
% >
% > Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not
% > In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted.
% >
% > I was going to wait a few days to respond in order to see what others
% > on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de
% > Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue
% > at hand.
% >
% > While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it
% > hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example,
% > regarding the language used in the NION statement), still, it gets
% > directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we
% > seem to be at odds.
% >
% > Gary
% >
% > ````
% > ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
% >
% > `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
% >
% > Hi Aldo,
% >
% > Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are
% > appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of
% > buddhism."
% >
% > Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the
% > NION "Statement of Conscience" on the bootstrap list. I can't say
% > that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil
% > man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous
% > pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a
% > further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of
% > increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be
% > no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for
% > considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of
% > conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're
% > facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience.
% > But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote:
% >
% >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain
% >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or
% >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring
% >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which
% >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be
% >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.
% >
% > "Good fortune"? What about weapons inspection? How clear is it that
% > he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi
% > "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like
% > so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed
% > by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had
% > these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them,
% > why should we be rushing into war--which m ight impel him to use
% > them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of
% > the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America
% > initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not
% > Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India? A
% > letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my
% > view:
% >
% >> A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack
% >> on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will
% >> be greater if we do than if we don't.
% >>
% >> It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us
% >> otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives
% >> and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international
% >> political capital.
% >>
% >> If a solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we
% >> should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to
% >> outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis.
% >>
% >> Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish
% >> whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to
% >> object arises from political considerations.
% >> We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to
% >> raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential
% >> hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with
% >> the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources.
% >
% > I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list
% > finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press
% > troubling. But I hope some other voice of rea son rises in response to
% > his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up.
% > Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience.
% >
% > Gary
% >
% >
% >
% > Aldo de Moor wrote:
% >
% >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote:
% >>
% >>
% >> > Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G
% >> >
% >> > Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep
% >> > trying
% >> > to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in
% >> > my
% >> > work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as
% >> > Sisyphus
% >> > (Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1)
% >> > preaching
% >> > to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the
% >> & gt; "best
% >> > and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding
% >> > oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive.
% >> >
% >> Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless
% >> looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces
% >> below
% >> the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in
% >> Europe
% >> and, I'm sure, in the US as well.
% >>
% >> Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the
% >> "Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode
% >> and
% >> examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged
% >> assumptions.
% >>
% >> The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots
% >> of
% >> reactionary people are afraid, and d esperately looking for
% >> stability,
% >> which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an
% >> easy
% >> target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's
% >> keep
% >> trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety.
% >>
% >> Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards
% >> your
% >> goals, but be satisfied with being
% >>
% >> involved in the process. Even if you
% >> never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters.
% >> Persistence
% >> pays.
% >>
% >> Take care,
% >>
% >> Aldo
% >>
% >> ==========================================================================
% >> ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl
% & gt;> IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069
% >> |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor
% >>
% >> Dr. Aldo de Moor
% >> Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg
% >> University
% >> PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands
% >> ==========================================================================
% >>
% >>
% >>
% >
% >
% >
% > Henry K van Eyken wrote:
% >
% >> Gary.
% >>
% >> First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about
% >> George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's
% >> Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.")
% >> Which of his motives are presidential, I ask myself, and which are
% >> personal?
% >>
% >> From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by
% >> an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of
% >> such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by
% >> members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule
% >> with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological
% >> agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he
% >> financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in
% >> attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking
% >> sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he
% >> applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to
% >> kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that
% >> pictur es and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in
% >> attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they
% >> are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed
% >> that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's
% >> seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous
% >> person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with
% >> him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his
% >> maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth
% >> directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's
% >> credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no
% >> different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering
% >> infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently
% >> learned that those stories were co ncocted by a PR/advertising agency
% >> on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva
% >> good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in
% >> the sand.)
% >>
% >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain
% >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or
% >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring
% >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which
% >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be
% >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.
% >>
% >> The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member
% >> of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a
% >> clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with
% >> military action against Saddam Hussain.
% >>
% >> Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of
% >> Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to
% >> take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby
% >> condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend
% >> and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with
% >> the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our
% >> minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately
% >> strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts
% >> at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering
% >> and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New
% >> York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the
% >> statement being writt en by highly respected editorial writers,
% >> whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an
% >> advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct,
% >> it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"]
% >> features a diverse list of influential names."
% >>
% >> It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better
% >> ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their
% >> judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform
% >> ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge
% >> the remaining sober; and then, how to act.
% >>
% >> "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are
% >> inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems.
% >>
% >> Henry
% >>
% >>
% >> Gary Richmond wrot e:
% >>
% >> > The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In Our
% >> > Name)
% >> >
% >> > Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing
% >> > when their government declared a war without limit and instituted
% >> > stark new measures of repression.
% >> >
% >> > The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to
% >> > resist the policies and overall political direction that have
% >> > emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to
% >> > the people of the world.
% >> >
% >> > http://www.nion.us/

-----
John Sechrest . Helping people use
CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet
Public Electronic . mo re effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc .
1600 SW Western ,suite 180 . Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) 754-7325
. http://www.peak.org/~sechrest




--------------090202040500080704090805-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 18:51:05 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8E93956FF9; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 18:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.3]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6D4A356FF4 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 18:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.155]) by tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020930020916.TETL12486.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 22:09:16 -0400 Message-ID: <3D97B163.480B1498@sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 22:05:23 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.7-10 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name References: <200209291615.g8TGFAC16000@tpol.peak.org> <3D973D8D.5509721@sympatico.ca> <3D9783F4.6060203@rcn.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BF8808D722008F1EBF1B3BE8" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------BF8808D722008F1EBF1B3BE8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Gary. Your comment - as well as the query by John, of course - is most appreciated. Do I have quick, good answers? No! But we MUST search for them. Points along the route toward this holy grail, points we cannot lose sight of, are (1) that ALL people on this planet share a common fate tied up with its quality as a habitat and, hence, that ALL people ought have a say in matters pertaining to our environment and survival. Isolationism may have been good for the century of John Quincy Adams, but circumstances have changed since then. (2) that we cannot reasonably expect ALL people to be sufficiently informed about environmental (and related political and financial issues, etc.), hence that by far the most of us need depend on judgment and actions of a few who are selected for their expertise by elected representatives. (3) point 2 begs the question of judgment about an electorates ability to judge the fitness of those standing for election - in terms of aptitude as well as in terms of moral stance. Current reality is that, for example, about half of eligible voters in the U.S. abstained from voting for the country's presidency, and those who did vote did mostly so without anything near adequate information about the candidates. Hence many feel they need to resort to campaigns, pressure tactics, participate in the corruption of so-called representatives, etc. Call me a dreamer, but what other way out is there than raising the comptetency of both groups: candidates and elctorates, to say nothing of professional expertise of scientists, etc.? Really, we are talking here about a nearly impossibly tall order. So tough and stymying perhaps that first inclination is to turn away from even thinking about the problem beyond shooting off our mouths about the wrongs of "the system" and what "they" should or should not do. But the beginnings of a solution would be, if we wish to maintain a democratic approach for running ur communal affairs, to find ways of making it TECHNICALLY possible to bring about improving individual competencies toward participation in the improvement of collective IQs (Engelbart). (Beyond the technical aspect there is much to be done in the social, psychological domains as well, but let's stick with the technical aspects for now.) In short, we are talking about improving the effective human intellect - in part by natural means in part by digital augmentation. The Engelbart approach to digital augmentation has two components: (a) enabling individual knowledge workers to solve problems faster and more effectively, and (b) enabling people with various talents to do so collectively. As for myself, I have been mainly thinking of how individuals might bolster their opinions with facts that can be trusted to be correct - facts in the social/political and in the scientific/technical domains - and also how they might better assess potential candidates for roles in governance. It seems obvious to me that finding ways of optimizing the usefulness of the WWW in this regard is one very good thing to do. Basically, to see what we really can do about "helping people make more effective use of computers and the Internet." Henry Gary Richmond wrote: > Dear Henry, > > You wrote in an earlier post addressed to Dennis and me, following > Dennis' infinitely reasonable, balanced and supportive comments, that > such differences of opinion/judgment among thoughtful men > >> . . . are mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, >> verifiable facts. >> >> I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter >> weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design >> and use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how >> can we arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes? >> >> Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with >> different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex >> problems in as short an order as possible. That is what his >> OHS/Hyperscope ideas are about. From my own side, I believe that we >> ought be actively engaged in arriving at better ways for individual >> citizens to arrive at more reliable assessments on which to base our >> atitude and conduct in the democratic process. >> >> . . . with the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and >> the resources available to us, we should be in as good a position as >> any group to make some modest headway toward designing urgently >> needed tools. > > and almost at once--as if to begin to validate this last point-- John > posted his truly "superb, stimulating" question, followed quickly by > your equally stimulating initial response. > > This is the kind of activity that IMO makes this list unique--that > there is a pragmatic attempt made here to go beyond the mere > expression of opinion in mere discussion to actually improving the > means to "Making Doug's Dream Come True" (in Aldo de Moor's > formulation, the title of his ICCS02 PORT workshop paper). > May we continue to work together to that end. > > Gary > >> > > > Henry K van Eyken wrote: > >> John. >> >> A superb, stimulating question! And one, I imagine, you already must >> have given thought to yourself - upon reading >> your affiliation (Public Electronic Access to Knowledge,Inc) and the >> organization's aim ("Helping people use >> computers and the Internet more effectively"). >> >> Living rather isolated from th world, except for the Internet >> connection, I have had in mind for some time to find >> out if a person or persons in this group cared to write a users' >> guide to search engines so as to provide a better >> insight in how info is gathered. Also, we would want to know more >> about any filters in the system to learn more about >> what promotes and what resists flow of information. We need to know >> more about sources (reliability) of information. >> Off hand, only one study comes to mind, about the trustworthyness of >> health information, done by the Pew Institute, >> which I haven't read yet, but will turn to. >> >> We (myself, Jack and a fri >> nd) recently visited a Dr. Lawrence Weed, the author of the >> Problem-Knowledge Coupler, a >> software that links medical diagnostic observations to the medical >> literature, a scheme that makes use of a team of >> experts continually scanning the literature. (More: www.pkc.com) We >> were assured that this technique ought have wide >> applicability and I am just waiting for some inspiration of how we >> can get into this deeper and ruitfully. From your >> affiliation, John, I should think you may want to contact Dr. Weed's >> group (in Burlington, Vt). >> >> Another, quite different, avenue t be explored is to look at a >> non-profit organization of investigative journalists. >> They have published materials on political corruption and commercial >> practices as employed by the tobacco industry, >> among others. I have reference to this somewhere in my system, just >> need digging it out. >> >> All in all, we would as a first ste >> p build some sense of the scope of the problem. >> >> Another approach is one as suggested by you: analyzing a conundrum >> such as the Iraqi go-or-no-go issue, or such >> issues as the credibility of environmental futurist scenarios. >> >> So, I realize that you were pushing for something more concrete in a >> step-1, step-2, step-3 way. I haven't gotten >> there yet except for that very obvious sine-qua-non, the need for >> voting individuals worldwide to have full access to >> the WWW and information as to how to use that access as effectively >> as possible. Which, of course, ties in with >> "helping people to use computers and the Internet more effectiely." >> >> I certainly will give your question more thought and I hope that >> others on this forum will do so as well - stumbling >> toward solutions. >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> John Sechrest wrote: >> >> >> > Following this thought of building tools to >> > support a greater understanding, I have always found >> > that it is easier to build a tool if you understand what >> > the task is and do it by hand first. >> > >> > So, since we are wanting to do a debate/discussion better, >> > What if you took this Iraq question and followed the >> > appropriate process using the tools that we have. >> > >> > Can we emulate via HTML a sufficiently rich example of >> > a good debate/discussion which would illustrate the >> > goal that you have? >> > >> > If so...l What are the first three steps to doing it? >> > >> > Henry K van Eyken writes: >> > >> > % >> > % --------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A >> > % Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> > % Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> > % >> > % Gary and Dennis. >> > % >> > % I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq >> > issue other >> > >> > % than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those >> > then it >> > % is most likely so because of our different sources of >> > information and >> > % differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences >> > are >> > % mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, >> > verifiable >> > % facts. >> > % >> > % I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that >> > latter >> > % weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we >> > design and >> > % use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how >> > can we >> > % arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes? >> > % >> > % Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people >> > with >> > % different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex >> > problems >> > % in as short an order as possible. That is what his >> > OHS/Hyperscope ideas >> > % are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively >> > engaged >> > % in arriving at better ways for individual citizens t >> > o arrive at more >> > % reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in >> > the >> > % democratic process. >> > % >> > % These would be good things to concentrate on because once the >> > Hussain >> > % crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, >> > there will >> > % be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. >> > And with >> > % the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the >> > resources >> > % available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group >> > to make >> > % some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools. >> > % >> > % Henry >> > % >> > % >> > % >> > % Gary Richmond wrote: >> > % >> > % > Henry, >> > % > >> > % > Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to >> > the Not >> > % > In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted. >> > % > >> > % > I was going to wait a few days to respond in order to see >> > what others >> > % > on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by >> > Aldo de >> > >> > % > Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning >> > the issue >> > % > at hand. >> > % > >> > % > While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, >> > since it >> > % > hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for >> > example, >> > % > regarding the language used in the NION statement), still, it >> > gets >> > % > directly at some critical points relating to those matters >> > where we >> > % > seem to be at odds. >> > % > >> > % > Gary >> > % > >> > % > ```` >> > % > >> > ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` >> > % > >> > % > >> > ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` >> > % > >> > % > Hi Aldo, >> > % > >> > % > Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and >> > are >> > % > appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical >> > interpretation of >> > % > buddhism." >> > % >> > > >> > % > Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my >> > posting the >> > % > NION "Statement of Conscience" on the bootstrap list. I can't >> > say >> > % > that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is >> > an evil >> > % > man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous >> > % > pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives >> > and a >> > % > further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood >> > of >> > % > increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out >> > to be >> > % > no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for >> > % > considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement >> > of >> > % > conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation >> > we're >> > % > facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of >> > conscience. >> > % > But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. >> > He wrote: >> > % > >> > % >> The question in my >> > mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain >> > % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is >> > necessary. Or >> > % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of >> > co-conspiring >> > % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in >> > which >> > % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we >> > will be >> > % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. >> > % > >> > % > "Good fortune"? What about weapons inspection? How clear is >> > it that >> > % > he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the >> > Iraqi >> > % > "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my >> > ear like >> > % > so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being >> > handed >> > % > by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if >> > he's had >> > % > these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used >> > them, >> > % > why should we be rushing into war--which m >> > ight impel him to use >> > % > them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without >> > support of >> > % > the UN and the international community? And the very notion of >> > America >> > % > initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. >> > May not >> > % > Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India? >> > A >> > % > letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something >> > of my >> > % > view: >> > % > >> > % >> A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an >> > attack >> > % >> on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our >> > country will >> > % >> be greater if we do than if we don't. >> > % >> >> > % >> It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to >> > persuade us >> > % >> otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many >> > lives >> > % >> and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international >> > % >> political capital. >> > % >> >> > % >> If a >> > solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we >> > % >> should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying >> > to >> > % >> outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis. >> > % >> >> > % >> Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the >> > boyish >> > % >> whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other >> > leaders to >> > % >> object arises from political considerations. >> > % >> We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional >> > leaders, to >> > % >> raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of >> > presidential >> > % >> hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable >> > war with >> > % >> the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources. >> > % > >> > % > I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on >> > that list >> > % > finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by >> > the press >> > % > troubling. But I hope some other voice of rea >> > son rises in response to >> > % > his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are >> > whipping up. >> > % > Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of >> > conscience. >> > % > >> > % > Gary >> > % > >> > % > >> > % > >> > % > Aldo de Moor wrote: >> > % > >> > % >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote: >> > % >> >> > % >> >> > % >> > Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G >> > % >> > >> > % >> > Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I >> > keep >> > % >> > trying >> > % >> > to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line >> > and in >> > % >> > my >> > % >> > work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as >> > % >> > Sisyphus >> > % >> > (Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either >> > (1) >> > % >> > preaching >> > % >> > to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy >> > amongst the >> > % >> & >> > gt; "best >> > % >> > and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) >> > finding >> > % >> > oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive. >> > % >> > >> > % >> Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently >> > hopeless >> > % >> looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible >> > forces >> > % >> below >> > % >> the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, >> > definitely in >> > % >> Europe >> > % >> and, I'm sure, in the US as well. >> > % >> >> > % >> Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours >> > is the >> > % >> "Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic >> > mode >> > % >> and >> > % >> examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged >> > % >> assumptions. >> > % >> >> > % >> The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. >> > Lots >> > % >> of >> > % >> reactionary people are afraid, and d >> > esperately looking for >> > % >> stability, >> > % >> which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on >> > an >> > % >> easy >> > % >> target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. >> > Let's >> > % >> keep >> > % >> trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety. >> > % >> >> > % >> Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim >> > towards >> > % >> your >> > % >> goals, but be satisfied with being >> > % >> >> > % >> involved in the process. Even if you >> > % >> never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters. >> > % >> Persistence >> > % >> pays. >> > % >> >> > % >> Take care, >> > % >> >> > % >> Aldo >> > % >> >> > % >> >> > ========================================================================== >> > % >> ---/// e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl >> > % & >> > gt;> IN|F/OLAB phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069 >> > % >> |/// home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor >> > % >> >> > % >> Dr. Aldo de Moor >> > % >> Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - >> > Tilburg >> > % >> University >> > % >> PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands >> > % >> >> > ========================================================================== >> > % >> >> > % >> >> > % >> >> > % > >> > % > >> > % > >> > % > Henry K van Eyken wrote: >> > % > >> > % >> Gary. >> > % >> >> > % >> First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary >> > about >> > % >> George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against >> > Iraq's >> > % >> Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against >> > Iraq.") >> > % >> Which of his motives are presidential, I ask >> > myself, and which are >> > % >> personal? >> > % >> >> > % >> From my reading over the years - including a biography of >> > Hussain by >> > % >> an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a >> > student of >> > % >> such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been >> > advised by >> > % >> members of the former communist soviet establishment how to >> > rule >> > % >> with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and >> > biological >> > % >> agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also >> > that he >> > % >> financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to >> > bits in >> > % >> attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not >> > taking >> > % >> sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he >> > % >> applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has >> > used it to >> > % >> kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have >> > noticed that >> > % >> pictur >> > es and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in >> > % >> attendance with their hands on the table and the room in >> > which they >> > % >> are seated having curtains all around. You may also have >> > noticed >> > % >> that usually there stands a military guard right behind >> > Hussain's >> > % >> seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very >> > dangerous >> > % >> person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" >> > with >> > % >> him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with >> > his >> > % >> maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth >> > % >> directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert >> > Speer's >> > % >> credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be >> > no >> > % >> different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis >> > murdering >> > % >> infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently >> > % >> learned that those stories were co >> > ncocted by a PR/advertising agency >> > % >> on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a >> > helluva >> > % >> good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their >> > line in >> > % >> the sand.) >> > % >> >> > % >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of >> > Hussain >> > % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is >> > necessary. Or >> > % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of >> > co-conspiring >> > % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in >> > which >> > % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we >> > will be >> > % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come. >> > % >> >> > % >> The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this >> > member >> > % >> of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to >> > shape a >> > % >> clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur >> > with >> > % >> > >> military action against Saddam Hussain. >> > % >> >> > % >> Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of >> > % >> Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly >> > unconscionable to >> > % >> take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and >> > thereby >> > % >> condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people >> > (friend >> > % >> and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially >> > so with >> > % >> the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh >> > in our >> > % >> minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it >> > immediately >> > % >> strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and >> > attempts >> > % >> at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is >> > sloganeering >> > % >> and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in >> > the New >> > % >> York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the >> > % >> statement being writt >> > en by highly respected editorial writers, >> > % >> whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an >> > % >> advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd >> > instinct, >> > % >> it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the >> > ad"] >> > % >> features a diverse list of influential names." >> > % >> >> > % >> It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find >> > better >> > % >> ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their >> > % >> judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform >> > % >> ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate >> > and judge >> > % >> the remaining sober; and then, how to act. >> > % >> >> > % >> "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are >> > % >> inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems. >> > % >> >> > % >> Henry >> > % >> >> > % >> >> > % >> Gary Richmond wrot >> > e: >> > % >> >> > % >> > The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience" NION (Not In >> > Our >> > % >> > Name) >> > % >> > >> > % >> > Let it not be said that people in the United States did >> > nothing >> > % >> > when their government declared a war without limit and >> > instituted >> > % >> > stark new measures of repression. >> > % >> > >> > % >> > The signers of this statement call on the people of the >> > U.S. to >> > % >> > resist the policies and overall political direction that >> > have >> > % >> > emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave >> > dangers to >> > % >> > the people of the world. >> > % >> > >> > % >> > http://www.nion.us/ >> > >> > ----- >> > John Sechrest . Helping people use >> > CTO PEAK - . computers and the Internet >> > Public Electronic . mo >> > re effectively >> > Access to Knowledge,Inc . >> > 1600 SW Western ,suite 180 . Internet: >> > sechrest@peak.org >> > Corvallis Oregon 97333 . (541) >> > 754-7325 >> > . >> > http://www.peak.org/~sechrest >> > >> > >> >> --------------BF8808D722008F1EBF1B3BE8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Gary.

Your comment - as well as the query by John, of course - is most appreciated.

Do I have quick, good answers? No! But we MUST search for them. Points along the route toward this holy grail, points we cannot lose sight of, are

(1) that ALL people on this planet share a common fate tied up with its quality as a habitat and, hence, that ALL people ought have a say in matters pertaining to our environment and survival. Isolationism may have been good for the century of John Quincy Adams, but circumstances have changed since then.

(2) that we cannot reasonably expect ALL people to be sufficiently informed about environmental (and related political and financial issues, etc.), hence that by far the most of us need depend on judgment and actions of a few who are selected for their expertise by elected representatives.

(3) point 2 begs the question of judgment about an electorates ability to judge the fitness of those standing for election - in terms of aptitude as well as in terms of moral stance. Current reality is that, for example, about half of eligible voters in the U.S. abstained from voting for the country's presidency, and those who did vote did mostly so without anything near adequate information about the candidates. Hence many feel they need to resort to campaigns, pressure tactics, participate in the corruption of so-called representatives, etc.
Call me a dreamer, but what other way out is there than raising the comptetency of both groups: candidates and elctorates, to say nothing of professional expertise of scientists, etc.?

Really, we are talking here about a nearly impossibly tall order. So tough and stymying perhaps that first inclination is to turn away from even thinking about the problem beyond shooting off our mouths about the wrongs of "the system" and what "they" should or should not do.

But the beginnings of a solution would be, if we wish to maintain a democratic approach for running ur communal affairs, to find ways of making it TECHNICALLY possible to bring about improving individual competencies toward participation in the improvement of collective IQs (Engelbart). (Beyond the technical aspect there is much to be done in the social, psychological domains as well, but let's stick with the technical aspects for now.) In short, we are talking about improving the effective human intellect - in part by natural means in part by digital augmentation.

The Engelbart approach to digital augmentation has two components: (a) enabling individual knowledge workers to solve problems faster and more effectively, and (b) enabling people with various talents to do so collectively. As for myself, I have been mainly thinking of how individuals might bolster their opinions with facts that can be trusted to be correct - facts in the social/political and in the scientific/technical domains - and also how they might better assess potential candidates for roles in governance.

It seems obvious to me that finding ways of optimizing the usefulness of the WWW in this regard is one very good thing to do. Basically, to see what we really can do about "helping people make more effective use of computers and the Internet."

Henry
 

Gary Richmond wrote:

Dear Henry,

You wrote in an earlier post addressed to Dennis and me, following Dennis' infinitely reasonable, balanced and supportive comments, that such differences of opinion/judgment among thoughtful men

. . . are mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable facts.

I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes?

Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged in arriving at better ways for individual citizens to arrive at more reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the democratic process.

. . . with the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools.

and almost at once--as if to begin to validate this last point-- John posted his truly "superb, stimulating" question, followed quickly by your equally stimulating initial response.

This is the kind of  activity that IMO makes this list unique--that there is a pragmatic attempt made here to go beyond the mere expression of opinion in mere discussion to actually improving the means to "Making Doug's Dream Come True" (in Aldo de Moor's formulation, the title of his ICCS02 PORT workshop paper).
May we continue to work together to that end.

Gary

 


Henry K van Eyken wrote:

John.

A superb, stimulating question! And one, I imagine, you already must have given thought to yourself - upon reading
your affiliation (Public Electronic Access to Knowledge,Inc) and the organization's aim ("Helping people use
computers and the Internet more effectively").

Living rather isolated from th world, except for the Internet connection, I have had in mind for some time to find
out if a person or persons in this group cared to write a users' guide to search engines so as to provide a better
insight in how info is gathered. Also, we would want to know more about any filters in the system to learn more about
what promotes and what resists flow of information. We need to know more about sources (reliability) of information.
Off hand, only one study comes to mind, about the trustworthyness of health information, done by the Pew Institute,
which I haven't read yet, but will turn to.

We (myself, Jack and a fri
nd) recently visited a Dr. Lawrence Weed, the author of the Problem-Knowledge Coupler, a
software that links medical diagnostic observations to the medical literature, a scheme that makes use of a team of
experts continually scanning the literature. (More: www.pkc.com) We were assured that this technique ought have wide
applicability and I am just waiting for some inspiration of how we can get into this deeper and ruitfully. From your
affiliation, John, I should think you may want to contact Dr. Weed's group (in Burlington, Vt).

Another, quite different, avenue t be explored is to look at a non-profit organization of investigative journalists.
They have published materials on political corruption and commercial practices as employed by the tobacco industry,
among others. I have reference to this somewhere in my system, just need digging it out.

All in all, we would as a first ste
p build some sense of the scope of the problem.

Another approach is one as suggested by you: analyzing a conundrum such as the Iraqi go-or-no-go issue, or such
issues as the credibility of environmental futurist scenarios.

So, I realize that you were pushing for something more concrete in a step-1, step-2, step-3 way. I haven't gotten
there yet except for that very obvious sine-qua-non, the need for voting individuals worldwide to have full access to
the WWW and information as to how to use that access as effectively as possible. Which, of course, ties in with
"helping people to use computers and the Internet more effectiely."

I certainly will give your question more thought and I hope that others on this forum will do so as well - stumbling
toward solutions.

Henry














John Sechrest wrote:

Following this thought of building tools to
support a greater understanding, I have always found
that it is easier to build a tool if you understand what
the task is and do it by hand first.

So, since we are wanting to do a debate/discussion better,
What if you took this Iraq question and followed the
appropriate process using the tools that we have.

Can we emulate via HTML  a sufficiently rich example of
a good debate/discussion which would illustrate the
goal that you have?

If so...l What are the first three steps to doing it?

Henry K van Eyken <vaneyken@sympatico.ca> writes:

 %
 % --------------E190CD14BEF16E93850E174A
 % Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
 % Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
 %
 % Gary and Dennis.
 %
 % I don't believe we are really at odds about the Hussain/Iraq issue other

 % than, perhaps, in some details. And if we ae at odds about those then it
 % is most likely so because of our different sources of information and
 % differing personal experiences. So, all in all, any differences are
 % mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable
 % facts.
 %
 % I believe that, on this forum, we'd do well to address that latter
 % weakness in citizens' private and public debates. How can we design and
 % use digital technology to overcome that weakness, and also how can we
 % arrive at better, more efficient decision-making processes?
 %
 % Doug's dream is to come up with ways in which a group of people with
 % different talents can work and evolve together to solve complex problems
 % in as short an order as possible. That is what his OHS/Hyperscope ideas
 % are about. From my own side, I believe that we ought be actively engaged
 % in arriving at better ways for individual citizens t
o arrive at more
 % reliable assessments on which to base our atitude and conduct in the
 % democratic process.
 %
 % These would be good things to concentrate on because once the Hussain
 % crisis is no longer front and center in our preoccupations, there will
 % be other crises - well, there already are, and plenty of them. And with
 % the kind of openmindedness and talent on this forum and the resources
 % available to us, we should be in as good a position as any group to make
 % some modest headway toward designing urgently needed tools.
 %
 % Henry
 %
 %
 %
 % Gary Richmond wrote:
 %
 % > Henry,
 % >
 % > Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response to the Not
 % > In Our Name "Statement of Conscience" that I posted.
 % >
 % > I was going to wait a few days to respond  in order to see what others
 % > on the list might be thinking, but I have been encouraged by Aldo de

 % > Moor to forward an email that I sent to him today concerning the issue
 % > at hand.
 % >
 % > While this is certainly not a complete response to your post, since it
 % > hardly addresses where I am tend to agree with you (for example,
 % > regarding the language used in the NION statement), still,  it gets
 % > directly at some critical points relating to those matters where we
 % > seem to be at odds.
 % >
 % > Gary
 % >
 % > ````
 % > ````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
 % >
 % > `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
 % >
 % > Hi Aldo,
 % >
 % > Thanks for your words of encouragement. They were needed and are
 % > appreciated. I certainly agree with your "practical interpretation of
 % > buddhism."
 % 
>
 % > Still, you no doubt saw Henry van Eyken's response to my posting the
 % > NION "Statement of Conscience"  on the bootstrap list. I can't say
 % > that I feel very encouraged by his analysis. Sure, Hussain is an evil
 % > man. But that's not the point. The possibility of a horrendous
 % > pre-emptive war with the resultant lost of many innocent lives and a
 % > further eroding of international stability (and the likelihood of
 % > increased terrorism in response to it) for what might turn out to be
 % > no better reason than that Bush wants it ought be reason for
 % > considerable debate. No doubt Henry's comment that a statement of
 % > conscience doesn't help the analysis of the complex situation we're
 % > facing is correct--it is, after all, only a statement of conscience.
 % > But his either/or, right/wrong analysis doesn't help either. He wrote:
 % >
 % >> The question in my 
mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain
 % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or
 % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring
 % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which
 % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be
 % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.
 % >
 % > "Good fortune"?  What about weapons inspection?  How clear is it that
 % > he has this "arsenal"? We have only Rumsfeld's word on the Iraqi
 % > "co-conspiring terrorists"--van Eyken's comments sound to my ear like
 % > so much falling into line with the disinformation we're being handed
 % > by the Bush administration and a compliant US press. And if he's had
 % > these "weapons of mass destruction" for years and hasn't used them,
 % > why should we be rushing into war--which m
ight impel him to use
 % > them--without substantial debate and unilaterally, without support of
 % > the UN and the international community? And the very notion of America
 % > initiating a pre-emptive war is alarming to me in the extreme. May not
 % > Pakistan follow our lead and use its atomic weapons on India?  A
 % > letter today to the editor of the NYTimes summarizes something of my
 % > view:
 % >
 % >> A large number of thoughtful, patriotic Americans oppose an attack
 % >> on Iraq based on a genuine concern that the cost to our country will
 % >> be greater if we do than if we don't.
 % >>
 % >> It is incumbent on the administration and Congress to persuade us
 % >> otherwise before committing us to a war that will take many lives
 % >> and is likely to be very costly in fiscal and international
 % >> political capital.
 % >>
 % >> If a
 solution other than war to the Saddam Hussein menace exists, we
 % >> should be wise enough to find it; it will be more satisfying to
 % >> outwit Saddam Hussein than to kill Iraqis.
 % >>
 % >> Many of us believe that the call to war against Iraq is the boyish
 % >> whimsy of our president and that the reluctance of other leaders to
 % >> object arises from political considerations.
 % >> We implore sensible people, and especially Congressional leaders, to
 % >> raise their voices in objection to any indulgence of presidential
 % >> hubris that seems determined to lead us into a questionable war with
 % >> the associated, tragic waste of lives and resources.
 % >
 % > I'll respond to Henry in the next few days if no one else on that list
 % > finds his compliance with the position being disseminated by the press
 % > troubling. But I hope some other voice of rea
son rises in response to
 % > his expression of. . .well, FEAR that the Bushites are whipping up.
 % > Expressions of fear are of even less value than those of conscience.
 % >
 % > Gary
 % >
 % >
 % >
 % > Aldo de Moor wrote:
 % >
 % >> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Gary Richmond wrote:
 % >>
 % >>
 % >> > Aldo, forgot to hit Reply All. G
 % >> >
 % >> > Myself, I'm sick to death of the whole thing. Of course, I keep
 % >> > trying
 % >> > to find ways to encourage opposition to "all this" on-line and in
 % >> > my
 % >> > work at the college, but one can begin to feel as absurd as
 % >> > Sisyphus
 % >> > (Camus' version), especially when one finds oneself either (1)
 % >> > preaching
 % >> > to the already converted or (2) running across idiocy amongst the
 % >> &
gt; "best
 % >> > and the brightest" that one meets on and off line or (3) finding
 % >> > oneself--or being made to feel--hopelessly naive.
 % >> >
 % >> Don't give up, Gary. Remember, all static (and apparently hopeless
 % >> looking) situations are in fact the resultant of incredible forces
 % >> below
 % >> the surface. Lots of critical capacity is building, definitely in
 % >> Europe
 % >> and, I'm sure, in the US as well.
 % >>
 % >> Let Bush & Ideological Sons continue the War on Terror. Ours is the
 % >> "Meta-War" on Terror: we have to continue to be in pragmatic mode
 % >> and
 % >> examine and investigate un- or insufficiently challenged
 % >> assumptions.
 % >>
 % >> The world has become an incredibly complex and dynamic place. Lots
 % >> of
 % >> reactionary people are afraid, and d
esperately looking for
 % >> stability,
 % >> which they think to have found in a policy of going strong on an
 % >> easy
 % >> target. Their real goal is not obliterating Iraq, but safety. Let's
 % >> keep
 % >> trying to find ways to provide alternative ways to safety.
 % >>
 % >> Keep in mind my practical interpretation of buddhism: aim towards
 % >> your
 % >> goals, but be satisfied with being
 % >>
 % >>  involved in the process. Even if you
 % >> never reach your objectives, feel that your voice matters.
 % >> Persistence
 % >> pays.
 % >>
 % >> Take care,
 % >>
 % >> Aldo
 % >>
 % >> ==========================================================================
 % >>   ---///     e-mail: ademoor@uvt.nl
 % &
gt;> IN|F/OLAB    phone +31-13-4662914/3020, fax +31-13-4663069
 % >>   |///       home page: http://infolab.uvt.nl/people/ademoor
 % >>
 % >> Dr. Aldo de Moor
 % >> Infolab, Dept. of Information Systems and Management - Tilburg
 % >> University
 % >> PO Box 90153, 5000 LE Tilburg, The Netherlands
 % >> ==========================================================================
 % >>
 % >>
 % >>
 % >
 % >
 % >
 % > Henry K van Eyken wrote:
 % >
 % >> Gary.
 % >>
 % >> First thing I should say that I myself am somewhat leary about
 % >> George W.'s mix of motives w.r.t. a military action against Iraq's
 % >> Saddam Hussain. (Please, notice that I did not say "against Iraq.")
 % >> Which of his motives are presidential, I ask
 myself, and which are
 % >> personal?
 % >>
 % >> From my reading over the years - including a biography of Hussain by
 % >> an Iraqi author - I have come to understand that he is a student of
 % >> such dictators as Hitler and Stalin and that he has been advised by
 % >> members of the former communist soviet establishment how to rule
 % >> with an iron fist. Also that he has used chemical and biological
 % >> agents during the war against Iran, notably on Iraqi's. Also that he
 % >> financially supports families of kids who blow themselves to bits in
 % >> attempts to bring terror to the Israelis. (And, no, I am not taking
 % >> sides here in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.) Also that he
 % >> applies his rule with a gun close at hand and that he has used it to
 % >> kill people who simply disagreed with him. You may have noticed that
 % >> pictur
es and videos of Hussain's cabinet meetings show all those in
 % >> attendance with their hands on the table and the room in which they
 % >> are seated having curtains all around. You may also have noticed
 % >> that usually there stands a military guard right behind Hussain's
 % >> seat. In short, it is wise to regard Hussain as a very dangerous
 % >> person. Also as one who is quite prepared to take "everybody" with
 % >> him when his time is up. Hitler aimed to do just that with his
 % >> maniacal pursuit of the war in Russia and his scorched-earth
 % >> directive for the destruction of Germany - which to Albert Speer's
 % >> credit was not carried through. I fear that Hussain will be no
 % >> different. (I could also refer to such stories as Iraqis murdering
 % >> infants in Kuwaiti hospitals, but then again, we subsequently
 % >> learned that those stories were co
ncocted by a PR/advertising agency
 % >> on behalf of Kuwait while the Kuwaiti "elite" was having a helluva
 % >> good time in Egypt while American troops were drawing their line in
 % >> the sand.)
 % >>
 % >> The question in my mind now is: will good fortune rid us of Hussain
 % >> before he uses his weapons, in which case no war is necessary. Or
 % >> will he be able to build up an arsenal and a band of co-conspiring
 % >> terrorists to threaten his neighbors and the world beyond, in which
 % >> case we better take preemptive action. You see, whether we will be
 % >> "wrong" or "right" won't be known for some time to come.
 % >>
 % >> The previous paragraphs sketch the disturbing picture of this member
 % >> of a democratic society not being sufficiently informed to shape a
 % >> clearly defensible position about whether or not to concur with
 % 
>> military action against Saddam Hussain.
 % >>
 % >> Your post is no help, really. It refers to a "Statement of
 % >> Conscience," but, personally, I think it utterly unconscionable to
 % >> take a laissez-faire attitude with respect to Hussain and thereby
 % >> condone the immense risk of exposing large numbers of people (friend
 % >> and foe alike!) to weapons of mass destruction - especially so with
 % >> the lesson of Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler still fresh in our
 % >> minds. Turning to the web site you referred to, it immediately
 % >> strikes me as riddled with sloganeering, polysyllables, and attempts
 % >> at misrepresentation. Examples: "Not in Our Name" is sloganeering
 % >> and the use of bold face to state "The statement appeared in the New
 % >> York Times on September 19" gives a first impression of the
 % >> statement being writt
en by highly respected editorial writers,
 % >> whereas the subsequent lighter print tells us it is merely an
 % >> advertisement. Then, further catering to the readers' herd instinct,
 % >> it tells us that "The New York Times ad [ not simply "the ad"]
 % >> features a diverse list of influential names."
 % >>
 % >> It seems to me that somehow we shall need to learn to find better
 % >> ways for citizens in democratic societies to arrive at their
 % >> judgments. Somehow we shall have to learn to properly inform
 % >> ourselves; how to filter out what is true; how to evaluate and judge
 % >> the remaining sober; and then, how to act.
 % >>
 % >> "Statements of Conscience" signed by influential names are
 % >> inadequate for dealing with urgent, complex problems.
 % >>
 % >> Henry
 % >>
 % >>
 % >> Gary Richmond wrot
e:
 % >>
 % >> > The beginning of "A Statement of Conscience"  NION (Not In Our
 % >> > Name)
 % >> >
 % >> > Let it not be said that people in the United States did nothing
 % >> > when their government declared a war without limit and instituted
 % >> > stark new measures of repression.
 % >> >
 % >> > The signers of this statement call on the people of the U.S. to
 % >> > resist the policies and overall political direction that have
 % >> > emerged since September 11, 2001, and which pose grave dangers to
 % >> > the people of the world.
 % >> >
 % >> > http://www.nion.us/

-----
John Sechrest          .         Helping people use
CTO  PEAK -             .           computers and the Internet
Public Electronic         .            mo
re effectively
Access to Knowledge,Inc      .
1600 SW Western ,suite 180      .            Internet: sechrest@peak.org
Corvallis Oregon 97333               .                  (541) 754-7325
                                            . http://www.peak.org/~sechrest



--------------BF8808D722008F1EBF1B3BE8-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 18:55:33 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0798E56FFB; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 18:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.chariot.net.au (mail.chariot.net.au [203.87.95.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3986456FF9 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 18:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from steves-imac.local. (ppp-066.cust203-87-117.ghr.chariot.net.au [203.87.117.66]) by mail.chariot.net.au (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F806180339 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:43:55 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 11:42:50 +0930 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v543) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Alternative viewpoint on "Tragedy of the Commons" From: stephen white To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <1EFD3CCE-D41A-11D6-9136-000393774D2C@chariot.net.au> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.543) Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/9/28/22156/1582 Sounds pretty right to me. The sad thing is that the Internet is being transformed from a commons to corporate controlled empires. It's easy to visualise humanity as a herd of sheep contentedly cropping on weeds, but I think it's more because there's a lack of true direction and money can create that illusion. I'm firm in my belief that collaboration is the next big thing in humanity's evolution. Collaborative acitivity is more than just the tools. It's a way of thinking where people are aware of the kinds of tasks that are better done by groups than by single people. The way I visualise this to myself is to imagine if I was back in the 1600's trying to comprehend "scientific thinking". The process of logical thought is just one of many ways of thinking about things and the only reason we bother with this specific pattern is because it generates results. -- spwhite@chariot.net.au From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 20:03:31 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6D6E656FF9; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (rwcrmhc51.attbi.com [204.127.198.38]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D18656FF4 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jacklaptop ([12.234.214.35]) by rwcrmhc51.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020930032153.JEIQ5955.rwcrmhc51.attbi.com@jacklaptop> for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 03:21:53 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020929201812.025c0a80@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:18:50 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Spring In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org At 09:56 AM 9/27/2002 +0930, you wrote: >Some interesting ideas here... and slightly painful for me, since I'd >thought of these ideas earlier but didn't implement them... > > http://www.usercreations.com/spring/screenshots.html > >I'm glad to see this though, and am looking forwards to trying it out. > > >PS. Screenshots! The one and only way to present new programs! > >-- > spwhite@chariot.net.au There is a demo that downloads with Jazz http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/jazz/ that is somewhat similar to spring, though not as fully developed. Jack --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 20:06:43 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 427A356FFB; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AD37B56FF9 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:06:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-105.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.105] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17vrB6-0002uo-00; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 23:25:00 -0400 Message-ID: <3D97C408.6060502@rcn.com> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 23:24:56 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Alternative viewpoint on "Tragedy of the Commons" References: <1EFD3CCE-D41A-11D6-9136-000393774D2C@chariot.net.au> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080404090300010203010207" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------080404090300010203010207 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit stephen white wrote: > http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/9/28/22156/1582 > Sounds pretty right to me. I could not agree with the thrust of this article more. The hopelessness that accompanies the loss of "the commons" continues to this day. See, for example, this recent article in the New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/29/national/29POVE.html Summary: > [Enlarge This Image] > > > > Chang W. Lee/The New York Times > > In Trenches of a War on Unyielding Poverty > > By JOHN W. FOUNTAIN > In Pembroke Township, Ill., escape routes to a better life are blocked > by the lack of jobs and child care, by geographic isolation, and by > hopelessness. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. How succinctly it summarizes the world-historic economic problematic that we are experiencing so acutely. How this seems "the one thing necessary" to correct. [cf. etymologically: commons, communication, communion, communal, commerce, comment, commonsense, etc.] > The sad thing is that the Internet is being transformed from a commons > to corporate controlled empires. It's easy to visualize humanity as a > herd of sheep contentedly cropping on weeds, but I think it's more > because there's a lack of true direction and money can create that > illusion. Wellk, let's not dispair. Charles S. Peirce says that pessimism is illogical as it stands in the way of inquiry. We have to articulate that "true direction" better and better in the Engelbartian/Peircean-pragmatic sense of counteracting "that illusion." So, THAT'S what we can do (Henry is quite right about this). > I'm firm in my belief that collaboration is the next big thing in > humanity's evolution. Collaborative activity is more than just the > tools. It's a way of thinking where people are aware of the kinds of > tasks that are better done by groups than by single people. (I completely agree. See, for example, the work of Aldo de Moor on this.) I must immediately note the obvious: This evolutionary collaboration is clearly of the greatest interest to all those, like Jack and Henry, who are optimally responsive to Doug Engelbart's work, as well as to all authentic Peirceans, such as Mary Keeler, the founder of PORT, and John Sowa, the inventor of Conceptual Graphs (after Peirce's Existential Graphs). In Europe this line of thought is developed to an extent (but not evolutionarily IMO) by Karl-Otto Apel and Jurgen Habermas). Aldo de Moor's work springs from this Continental influence, although I have seen him become more and more an Engelbartian. > The way I visualize this to myself is to imagine if I was back in the > 1600's trying to comprehend "scientific thinking". The process of > logical thought is just one of many ways of thinking about things and > the only reason we bother with this specific pattern is because it > generates results. And here I would direct us all to Peircean--and all truly scientific- inquiry methods and processes.. We ought want to optimize inquiry in the direction of the truth that is congruent with reality as we see it to be. This is clearly no personal matter, but one which ought engage the community of inquiry in relation to that reality--which is what it is whether you or I or anyone else imagines it to be or not (Peircean formulation). Touching upon THAT together gives reason for hope IMHO. Thank you Stephen for elevating further this line of inquiry. I imagine that your contribution will tend towards the optimal. Gary -- spwhite@chariot.net.au stephen white wrote: > http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/9/28/22156/1582 > > Sounds pretty right to me. > > The sad thing is that the Internet is being transformed from a commons > to corporate controlled empires. It's easy to visualise humanity as a > herd of sheep contentedly cropping on weeds, but I think it's more > because there's a lack of true direction and money can create that > illusion. > > I'm firm in my belief that collaboration is the next big thing in > humanity's evolution. Collaborative acitivity is more than just the > tools. It's a way of thinking where people are aware of the kinds of > tasks that are better done by groups than by single people. > > The way I visualise this to myself is to imagine if I was back in the > 1600's trying to comprehend "scientific thinking". The process of > logical thought is just one of many ways of thinking about things and > the only reason we bother with this specific pattern is because it > generates results. > > -- > spwhite@chariot.net.au > > --------------080404090300010203010207 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------060508070802050008010500" --------------060508070802050008010500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit stephen white wrote:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/9/28/22156/1582
Sounds pretty right to me.
I could not agree with the thrust of this article more. The hopelessness that accompanies the loss of "the commons" continues to this day.
See, for example, this recent article in the New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/29/national/29POVE.html

Summary:
Enlarge This Image

Chang W. Lee/The New York Times
In Trenches of a War on Unyielding Poverty
By JOHN W. FOUNTAIN
In Pembroke Township, Ill., escape routes to a better life are blocked by the lack of jobs and child care, by geographic isolation, and by hopelessness.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. How succinctly it summarizes the world-historic economic problematic that we are experiencing so acutely. How this seems "the one thing necessary" to correct. [cf. etymologically: commons, communication, communion, communal, commerce, comment, commonsense, etc.]
The sad thing is that the Internet is being transformed from a commons to corporate controlled empires. It's easy to visualize humanity as a herd of sheep contentedly cropping on weeds, but  I think it's more because there's a lack of true direction and money can create that illusion.
Wellk, let's not dispair. Charles S. Peirce says that pessimism is illogical as it stands in the way of inquiry. We have to articulate that "true direction" better and better in the Engelbartian/Peircean-pragmatic sense of counteracting "that illusion." So, THAT'S what we can do (Henry is quite right about this).
I'm firm in my belief that collaboration is the next big thing in humanity's evolution. Collaborative activity is more than just the tools. It's a way of thinking where people are aware of the kinds of tasks that are better done by groups than by single people.
(I completely agree. See, for example,  the work of Aldo de Moor on this.)

I must immediately note the obvious: This evolutionary collaboration is clearly of the greatest interest to all those, like Jack and Henry, who are optimally responsive to Doug Engelbart's work, as well as to all authentic Peirceans, such as Mary Keeler, the founder of PORT, and John Sowa, the inventor of Conceptual Graphs (after Peirce's Existential Graphs). In Europe this line of thought is developed to an extent (but not evolutionarily IMO) by Karl-Otto Apel and Jurgen Habermas). Aldo de Moor's work springs from this Continental influence, although I have seen him become more and more an Engelbartian.
The way I visualize this to myself is to imagine if I was back in the 1600's trying to comprehend "scientific thinking". The process of logical thought is just one of many ways of thinking about things and the only reason we bother with this specific pattern is because it generates results.
And here I would direct us all to Peircean--and all truly scientific- inquiry methods and processes.. We ought want to optimize inquiry in the direction of the truth that is congruent with reality as we see it to be. This is clearly no personal matter, but one which ought engage the community of inquiry in relation to that reality--which is what it is whether you or I or anyone else imagines it to be or not (Peircean formulation).

Touching upon THAT together gives reason for hope IMHO.

Thank you Stephen for elevating further this line of inquiry. I imagine that your contribution will tend towards the optimal.

Gary


--
  spwhite@chariot.net.au



stephen white wrote:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/9/28/22156/1582

Sounds pretty right to me.

The sad thing is that the Internet is being transformed from a commons to corporate controlled empires. It's easy to visualise humanity as a herd of sheep contentedly cropping on weeds, but  I think it's more because there's a lack of true direction and money can create that illusion.

I'm firm in my belief that collaboration is the next big thing in humanity's evolution. Collaborative acitivity is more than just the tools. It's a way of thinking where people are aware of the kinds of tasks that are better done by groups than by single people.

The way I visualise this to myself is to imagine if I was back in the 1600's trying to comprehend "scientific thinking". The process of logical thought is just one of many ways of thinking about things and the only reason we bother with this specific pattern is because it generates results.

--
  spwhite@chariot.net.au



--------------060508070802050008010500-- --------------080404090300010203010207-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 20:22:56 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 48F4656FF9; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A788556FF4 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-105.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.105] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17vrQn-0004gG-00; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 23:41:13 -0400 Message-ID: <3D97C7D7.3000606@rcn.com> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 23:41:11 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: PS [ba-unrev-talk] Alternative viewpoint on "Tragedy of the Commons" References: <1EFD3CCE-D41A-11D6-9136-000393774D2C@chariot.net.au> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070404040809020909060407" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --------------070404040809020909060407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PS [The New York Times] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ September 29, 2002 Poor in Assets and Income By RAY BOSHARA [W] ASHINGTON -- Last week, in an annual autumn ritual, the Census Bureau released its latest statistics on poverty and income. After falling for four consecutive years, the poverty rate rose to 11.7 percent in 2001. But this figure, whether rising or declining, tells only part of the story about poverty in America: It measures only income. For a more complete picture -- and a more disheartening one -- it is necessary to measure the assets of the poor as well. Between 1983 and 1998, the last year for which a comparison can be made, income poverty declined about 16 percent, while asset poverty rose 14 percent. Today, fully one-quarter of the United States population is asset-poor. This means that, if they had to live only on their net worth -- savings, home equity and other assets -- they could survive at the poverty level for three months. Take away home equity, or just consider liquid assets, and the poverty rate jumps to nearly 40 percent. When families don't have enough income, they can't buy enough food, shelter, clothing and other necessities. With 33 million Americans now classified as officially "poor," income poverty is a huge problem. But at least twice as many families don't have enough assets -- and so they lose their economic security and their ability to plan, dream and pass on opportunities to future generations. Lack of income means you don't get by; lack of assets means you don't get ahead. Clearly, both income and assets are important measures of well-being. But when the government frames the problem in terms of income, the solutions are framed in terms of income. Hence, reports of rising poverty are usually met with calls for greater income and food assistance, higher rental subsidies and increases in the Earned Income Tax Credit and minimum wage. The need for the poor to save and build assets is hardly discussed. In fact, it turns out that the federal government has two policies. For the nonpoor, there is over $300 billion a year in tax breaks or incentives for individuals for asset development: tax deductions for home mortgages, favorable treatment for contributions to retirement plans or college-savings plans, myriad benefits for small business ownership and stock investment. Over 90 percent of these benefits go to families earning more than $50,000 a year. Combine these inaccessible income tax breaks with strict asset limits in public-assistance programs, and the poor face asset denial. It's not that the government doesn't spend on the poor. It's that it spends very differently on the poor. They are grudgingly provided barely enough income and food to get by, while better-off Americans receive generous subsidies to build assets to get ahead. This disparity in asset accumulation shows up in data on wealth inequality -- which, not surprisingly, dwarfs income inequality and reaches well into the middle class. The top 20 percent of households earn about 56 percent of the nation's income -- but command 83 percent of our wealth. The bottom 60 percent, the majority of the country, earns 23 percent of the nation's income -- but owns less than 5 percent of the wealth. And the bottom 40 percent earns 10 percent of national income but owns less than 1 percent of the wealth. Despite the greater magnitude of wealth inequality, however, income inequality -- like income poverty -- receives far more public attention. To be sure, there have been some efforts to rethink the poverty line, including a comprehensive study by the National Academy of Sciences, some of whose recommendations are now included in annual Census reports. And some advocates for the poor have proposed the use of a self-sufficiency standard to better capture the needs of the poor. Most helpful, however, would be a set of policies to help the asset-poor, not just the income-poor. We know such policies can work. In a nationwide demonstration project, in which savings are matched on a 2-for-1 basis, the poorest of the poor -- those at 50 percent of the poverty line or below -- are saving more than 3 percent of their income. We can help the poor accumulate more assets with matching deposits and refundable tax credits for savings that lead to homeownership, higher education, business development, investment and retirement. To combat pervasive child poverty and enable asset accumulation throughout life, we could establish a savings account at birth for every person in America. If we continue to combat poverty primarily in terms of income, we do not merely mislead ourselves with a false sense of progress or an insufficient sense of urgency. We also deny the poor benefits and strategies for improving their lives that we have long offered to millions of other Americans. stephen white wrote: > http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/9/28/22156/1582 > > Sounds pretty right to me. > > The sad thing is that the Internet is being transformed from a commons > to corporate controlled empires. It's easy to visualise humanity as a > herd of sheep contentedly cropping on weeds, but I think it's more > because there's a lack of true direction and money can create that > illusion. > > I'm firm in my belief that collaboration is the next big thing in > humanity's evolution. Collaborative acitivity is more than just the > tools. It's a way of thinking where people are aware of the kinds of > tasks that are better done by groups than by single people. > > The way I visualise this to myself is to imagine if I was back in the > 1600's trying to comprehend "scientific thinking". The process of > logical thought is just one of many ways of thinking about things and > the only reason we bother with this specific pattern is because it > generates results. > > -- > spwhite@chariot.net.au > > --------------070404040809020909060407 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------000204050601010402020002" --------------000204050601010402020002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PS
The New York Times

September 29, 2002

Poor in Assets and Income

By RAY BOSHARA

W ASHINGTON — Last week, in an annual autumn ritual, the Census Bureau released its latest statistics on poverty and income. After falling for four consecutive years, the poverty rate rose to 11.7 percent in 2001. But this figure, whether rising or declining, tells only part of the story about poverty in America: It measures only income. For a more complete picture — and a more disheartening one — it is necessary to measure the assets of the poor as well.

Between 1983 and 1998, the last year for which a comparison can be made, income poverty declined about 16 percent, while asset poverty rose 14 percent. Today, fully one-quarter of the United States population is asset-poor. This means that, if they had to live only on their net worth — savings, home equity and other assets — they could survive at the poverty level for three months. Take away home equity, or just consider liquid assets, and the poverty rate jumps to nearly 40 percent.

When families don't have enough income, they can't buy enough food, shelter, clothing and other necessities. With 33 million Americans now classified as officially "poor," income poverty is a huge problem. But at least twice as many families don't have enough assets — and so they lose their economic security and their ability to plan, dream and pass on opportunities to future generations. Lack of income means you don't get by; lack of assets means you don't get ahead.

Clearly, both income and assets are important measures of well-being. But when the government frames the problem in terms of income, the solutions are framed in terms of income. Hence, reports of rising poverty are usually met with calls for greater income and food assistance, higher rental subsidies and increases in the Earned Income Tax Credit and minimum wage. The need for the poor to save and build assets is hardly discussed.

In fact, it turns out that the federal government has two policies. For the nonpoor, there is over $300 billion a year in tax breaks or incentives for individuals for asset development: tax deductions for home mortgages, favorable treatment for contributions to retirement plans or college-savings plans, myriad benefits for small business ownership and stock investment. Over 90 percent of these benefits go to families earning more than $50,000 a year. Combine these inaccessible income tax breaks with strict asset limits in public-assistance programs, and the poor face asset denial.

It's not that the government doesn't spend on the poor. It's that it spends very differently on the poor. They are grudgingly provided barely enough income and food to get by, while better-off Americans receive generous subsidies to build assets to get ahead.

This disparity in asset accumulation shows up in data on wealth inequality — which, not surprisingly, dwarfs income inequality and reaches well into the middle class. The top 20 percent of households earn about 56 percent of the nation's income — but command 83 percent of our wealth. The bottom 60 percent, the majority of the country, earns 23 percent of the nation's income — but owns less than 5 percent of the wealth. And the bottom 40 percent earns 10 percent of national income but owns less than 1 percent of the wealth. Despite the greater magnitude of wealth inequality, however, income inequality — like income poverty — receives far more public attention.

To be sure, there have been some efforts to rethink the poverty line, including a comprehensive study by the National Academy of Sciences, some of whose recommendations are now included in annual Census reports. And some advocates for the poor have proposed the use of a self-sufficiency standard to better capture the needs of the poor.

Most helpful, however, would be a set of policies to help the asset-poor, not just the income-poor. We know such policies can work. In a nationwide demonstration project, in which savings are matched on a 2-for-1 basis, the poorest of the poor — those at 50 percent of the poverty line or below — are saving more than 3 percent of their income. We can help the poor accumulate more assets with matching deposits and refundable tax credits for savings that lead to homeownership, higher education, business development, investment and retirement. To combat pervasive child poverty and enable asset accumulation throughout life, we could establish a savings account at birth for every person in America.

If we continue to combat poverty primarily in terms of income, we do not merely mislead ourselves with a false sense of progress or an insufficient sense of urgency. We also deny the poor benefits and strategies for improving their lives that we have long offered to millions of other Americans.




stephen white wrote:
http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2002/9/28/22156/1582

Sounds pretty right to me.

The sad thing is that the Internet is being transformed from a commons to corporate controlled empires. It's easy to visualise humanity as a herd of sheep contentedly cropping on weeds, but  I think it's more because there's a lack of true direction and money can create that illusion.

I'm firm in my belief that collaboration is the next big thing in humanity's evolution. Collaborative acitivity is more than just the tools. It's a way of thinking where people are aware of the kinds of tasks that are better done by groups than by single people.

The way I visualise this to myself is to imagine if I was back in the 1600's trying to comprehend "scientific thinking". The process of logical thought is just one of many ways of thinking about things and the only reason we bother with this specific pattern is because it generates results.

--
  spwhite@chariot.net.au



--------------000204050601010402020002-- --------------070404040809020909060407-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 20:26:37 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C76E656FFB; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 850F256FF9 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jacklaptop ([12.234.214.35]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020930034457.JHHL15492.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@jacklaptop> for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 03:44:57 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020929204107.025da1b0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2002 20:41:55 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Spoffed "From", Klez, and lawyers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/02/09/29/0210249.shtml?tid=123 "I recently had the misfortune to encounter a CEO who had just received the Klez virus. Apparently, he believed the 'From:' header and accused me of not only authoring the virus, but deliberately and maliciously targeting him and his organization. Normally, clueless people like this don't bother me, except he was inclined to sue me and report me to the FBI. Of course, he's got more money and lawyers than I do, and could probably have made me miserable even though I'm completely innocent... but it raises the question: How do I know when I need a lawyer?" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 21:02:13 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BAA4156FF9; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 21:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B60F56FF7 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 21:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-105.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.105] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17vs2o-0000QN-00; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:20:30 -0400 Message-ID: <3D97D103.7050205@rcn.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:20:19 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Spoffed "From", Klez, and lawyers References: <4.2.2.20020929204107.025da1b0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org > How do I know when I need a lawyer? Joke: How do you tell if the road kill on the side of the highway is a cat or a lawyer? If it's a cat there'll be skid marks. Jack Park wrote: > http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/02/09/29/0210249.shtml?tid=123 > > "I recently had the misfortune to encounter a CEO who had just > received the Klez virus. Apparently, he believed the 'From:' header > and accused me of not only authoring the virus, but deliberately and > maliciously targeting him and his organization. Normally, clueless > people like this don't bother me, except he was inclined to sue me and > report me to the FBI. Of course, he's got more money and lawyers than > I do, and could probably have made me miserable even though I'm > completely innocent... but it raises the question: How do I know when > I need a lawyer?" > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. > Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. > > http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Sep 29 21:17:04 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A059656FF9; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 21:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F49C56FF7 for ; Sun, 29 Sep 2002 21:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-237-116-105.c3-0.23d-ubr1.nyr-23d.ny.cable.rcn.com ([207.237.116.105] helo=rcn.com) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #7) id 17vsHB-0001nM-00; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:35:21 -0400 Message-ID: <3D97D486.6010006@rcn.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 00:35:18 -0400 From: Gary Richmond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2 X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Spring References: <4.2.2.20020929201812.025c0a80@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Thanks, Jack! g Jack Park wrote: > At 09:56 AM 9/27/2002 +0930, you wrote: > >> Some interesting ideas here... and slightly painful for me, since I'd >> thought of these ideas earlier but didn't implement them... >> >> http://www.usercreations.com/spring/screenshots.html >> >> I'm glad to see this though, and am looking forwards to trying it out. >> >> >> PS. Screenshots! The one and only way to present new programs! >> >> -- >> spwhite@chariot.net.au > > > There is a demo that downloads with Jazz > http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/jazz/ that is somewhat similar to spring, > though not as fully developed. > > Jack > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. > Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. > > http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog > > From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 30 04:15:48 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5D0A556FF9; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 04:15:48 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 004AC56FF7 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 04:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 57880 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2002 11:33:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (192.168.45.236) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2002 11:33:14 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] The nature of debate / discussion Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 04:34:26 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <200209291615.g8TGFAC16000@tpol.peak.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I started a new topic with this because I believe that it is warranted. I spoke to some of this in suggesting that in order to accomplish the goals of an OHS / DKR we need to address the issues of the methods that such tools use / support. I will use *discussion* to mean debate / discussion. The first point is to determine the purpose of the discussion, so we can know when it has either achieved its desired result(s) or it is clear that we have reached "diminishing returns" and are not likely to achieve the results. Possible purposes include: * Just have fun - stop when it is no longer fun * Get all the issues out - stop when no new issues are being brought up * Arrive at some agreements including where we "agree to disagree" - stop when progress ceases Since (by construction, I confess), only the last goal requires any method in order to succeed, I will no consider those discussions where the objective is to arrive at some agreements. This must clearly be the sort of discussion necessary if we are to "solve" any of the urgent complex problems which are the focus of this entire effort. So, we look at what is required. I suggest that there are at least 3 parts to the problem: * Definitions and transfer of meaning - insuring that what is said is what is heard, otherwise communication fails. * Principles and value propositions - until we agree on what it means to agree, we won't know how to progress toward agreement. * What are the facts and how do they match up to the preconditions of the principles. Taking these in order: Definitions We need to check constantly that we are talking about the same things. "If they are using your lexicon, make sure they are using your dictionary also". I used to counsel couples using a very simple technique: I would ask them what it was they argued about most often. About 10 seconds later the persistent argument was in full swing. I would listen for places where they appeared to be using the same word or phrase in different ways and have each of them define what they meant by it. An incredible number of conflicts resolved in a few minutes using this approach. I have since recommended this approach to couples in conflict for their own private use (without a "counselor") and those who have used it have been quite successful. Principles and value propositions. Until we can find some point at which we agree, we cannot build a bridge from what we agree upon to further agreements or ways of looking at the current issue. If I claim that entity E is not justified in taking action A in the current situation S, then I have to deal with the question of principle "are there any situations in which an unspecified entity is justified in taking action A?" If we can agree on situations in which action A is justified, then we can address the facts of the current situation to determine to what degree they match the situations under which we have agreed that action A is justified. If we cannot agree on this principle, we then record it and work toward deeper issues. This very quickly arrives at some very fundamental philosophical issues: What constitutes truth and how can we tell? What constitutes evidence, proof, reasoning? Until we can agree on some set of ground rules, no progress toward agreement is possible. It I take the position that "you are evil and must be destroyed at all cost," we are not likely to arrive at any basis of agreement on which to proceed with the discussion. Milder forms of this viewpoint are evident very quickly in polarized discussions, as we have all seen. Facts and their matching to agreed upon principles If we can agree on the principles and vales to be used in evaluating situations of the type under discussion, then we can actually begin to discuss what each of us perceives to be the facts of the matter, to separate fact from rumor and opinion, and to see if the facts match the principles we have agreed upon. Often we will find that principles other than those that we have worked out are invoked and hampering the discussion, and we need to take the new proposed principles and work toward agreement on them. It is possible to reach a state where the principles and values simply cannot be resolved, since not all such are the result of reasoned analysis. Then if we can "agree to disagree" there is at least some agreement as a resolution. Often, however, it can appear that there is nowhere to go when a deeper insight into what question to address next can get things moving again. Some of this may seem overly abstract, but it works in practice. The first part of tackling such a discussion is to get all parties on the same side of some issue - we are truly trying to arrive at mutual agreements rather than merely to have our current positions prevail. Some may think that the issues of abstract philosophy are not relevant to such practical discussions, but I assure you that they are among the most relevant of issues. Several years ago I got into a discussion on a forum that lasted several months as I tried to understand what the real source of conflict was. I finally realized that the other person rejected the idea of individual rights - to him, a right was just some privilege that the group hadn't yet decide to take away, and that there was nothing that the group was forever prohibited from taking away just because they chose to do so. Since I insist that there are rights that are inherent to individuals and that groups obtain their rights from the individuals, there was nowhere to continue unless I was to invest several more months in a discussion that would likely not produce any agreement. There are those who don't really believe in reality - they are convinced that anything is possible merely because they wish it to be so. With no concept of reality, there is no concept of truth, and no concept of proof or logic. There is literally no reasoning with individuals who hold this belief system since there is no basis on which to agree to agree. Notice that this has much more to do with people and their attitudes than with methods or tools. However, we can ask such questions as: * Is this an adequate method for the goals of solving complex urgent problems? Enhance / modify as needed. * What features would a tool that supported such a method provide? At a minimum, it would seem that a means of tracking such things as definitions and the degree of agreement on them, including ways of designating the conflicting meanings used so that precision in communication can be achieved. A way of keeping track of the path to the current discussion so that when we finally reach some set of agreements, we know how to "unwind the stack" to visit the earlier issues that gave rise to the current one. Ways of organizing information that purport to be facts, disputes over the truth or accuracy of those claims and statements which are agreed to be facts would be needed. Ways for individuals to organize their own ideas for presentation to the group. Support for multiple parallel discussions and ways of trying to keep them from getting tangled up as new people or new ideas arrive. Whether the described method is agreed upon as one to be supported and whether the features are the ones needed to support the method are valid discussion topics, but I do believe that this approach stands a fighting chance of allowing us to reach some agreements as to the nature of what we are trying to build. The closer we come to understanding what the system needs to facilitate, the closer we come to the day that we can develop the design elements of a system to do that, which we might then be able to prototype in whole or in part, and then to use to bootstrap the discussion for the next level of the evolution of the tools. Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson -----Original Message----- From: John Sechrest Following this thought of building tools to support a greater understanding, I have always found that it is easier to build a tool if you understand what the task is and do it by hand first. So, since we are wanting to do a debate/discussion better, What if you took this Iraq question and followed the appropriate process using the tools that we have. Can we emulate via HTML a sufficiently rich example of a good debate/discussion which would illustrate the goal that you have? If so...l What are the first three steps to doing it? From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 30 09:20:00 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4227056FFB; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.101freeway.net (mail.101freeway.net [12.44.112.15]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A4C4F56FF9 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 96541 invoked from network); 30 Sep 2002 16:37:12 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO minerva) (192.168.45.236) by mail.101freeway.com with SMTP; 30 Sep 2002 16:37:12 -0000 From: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 09:38:26 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0022_01C26865.20A70EC0" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <3D9783F4.6060203@rcn.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4807.1700 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C26865.20A70EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > such differences of opinion/judgment among thoughtful men > . . . are mostly a matter of insufficient availability of shared, verifiable facts. This is certainly true, but it isn’t all of the problem. As Joseph M. Juran says: "It isn't what you don't know that hurts you; it's what you know for sure that isn't so." (multiple attributions). Not totally true, of course, what you don’t know *can* hurt you also. The terms “everybody knows”, “common sense”, “obvious”, “self-evident”, “intuitive” and similar all denote knowledge that is claimed to be shared by all an seldom is. One difficulty with most discussions is that they start in the middle with all participants believing that everybody else shares what are to them are obvious bits of knowledge. This turns out to be true almost never. For this reason, going back to precise definitions becomes very important. Learning to use language as unambiguously as possible and to pay attention to such details as precise *shared* definitions is essential to progress in serious discussion. Gary Richmond’s post on “Poor in Assets and Income” makes this point quite well. Given an inadequate definition of a single word can result in a failure of even the best intentioned to resolve the difficulty. In social problems, a major difficulty is getting a formulation of the problem that actually takes into account all the relevant factors and tries to determine which of those factors are causes and which are effects – a point that was made in the posts on the commons site. Failure to state the problem in adequate terms dooms us to trying to solve the wrong problem. Poverty is a classic case: “Poverty means that the poor don’t have enough money” results in programs to give them money, which have failed, because that is far from all that is needed. The asset definition may be a better one, but in the light of some of the commons information, sometimes “access to assets” is an important component. Something such as poverty is a complex issue because it has many causes, and not all who are poor are so for the same reasons. Attempts to solve an issue such as poverty based on a simplistic definition results in “solutions” that don’t work. The better an understanding that we can get of the *facts* of the problem and their relationships the better chance we have of evolving solutions that will work in the sense that they will eliminate rather than alleviate the problem. Nearly all complex problems are also systems problems in the sense that there are very few “independent variables” – everything impacts everything else, and not all combinations of values are possible, and not all that are theoretically possible are achievable. Thanks, Garold (Gary) L. Johnson ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C26865.20A70EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> such differences of = opinion/judgment among thoughtful men

> . . . are mostly a matter of insufficient = availability of shared, verifiable facts.

 

Th= is is certainly true, but it isn’t all of the problem. As Joseph M. = Juran says: "It isn't what you don't know that hurts you; it's what you know = for sure that isn't so." (multiple attributions). Not totally true, of = course, what you don’t know *can* hurt you also.

 

Th= e terms “everybody knows”, “common sense”, “obvious”, = “self-evident”, “intuitive” and similar all denote knowledge that is claimed to be shared by all an seldom is. One difficulty with most discussions is that they start in the middle with = all participants believing that everybody else shares what are to them are obvious bits = of knowledge. This turns out to be true almost never. For this reason, = going back to precise definitions becomes very important. Learning to use language = as unambiguously as possible and to pay attention to such details as = precise *shared* definitions is essential = to progress in serious discussion.

 

Ga= ry Richmond’s post on “Poor in Assets and Income” makes this point = quite well. Given an inadequate definition of a single word can result in a failure = of even the best intentioned to resolve the difficulty. In social problems, a = major difficulty is getting a formulation of the problem that actually takes = into account all the relevant factors and tries to determine which of those = factors are causes and which are effects – a point that was made in the = posts on the commons site. Failure to state the problem in adequate terms dooms us to = trying to solve the wrong problem.

 

Poverty is a classic = case:

“Poverty means that the poor = don’t have enough money” results in programs to give them money, which have = failed, because that is far from all that is needed.

The asset definition may be a = better one, but in the light of some of the commons information, sometimes = “access to assets” is an important component.

Something such as poverty is a = complex issue because it has many causes, and not all who are poor are so for = the same reasons. Attempts to solve an issue such as poverty based on a = simplistic definition results in “solutions” that don’t work. The = better an understanding that we can get of the *facts* = of the problem and their relationships the better chance we have of evolving = solutions that will work in the sense that they will eliminate rather than = alleviate the problem.

Nearly all complex problems are = also systems problems in the sense that there are very few “independent = variables” – everything impacts everything else, and not all combinations of values = are possible, and not all that are theoretically possible are = achievable.

 

Thanks,

 

Garold (Gary) L. = Johnson

<= span class=3DEmailStyle20> 

 <= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C26865.20A70EC0-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 30 13:07:01 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 50A4C56FFC; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C13FA56FFB for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA27119 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:25:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8UKPJi21286 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D98B38E.4238117A@sun.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:26:54 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Chris Dent wrote: > ... I'm in favor of the GPL exactly because it restrains > downstreams developers from turning my goodwill contribution to the > commonweal into a profit generating system that benefits only them. My first inclination is to agree. And just as Gosling sees no problem if people want to give something away, there surely can be no problem in giving in such a way that the gift remains free. For example, if I ever get that land-for-farming foundation started, the land could be sold for a $1, if there were a way to write the deed so it could never be resold for more than that, no matter who gets it. That's the only way to eventually turn off the heat on the economic pressure cooker. On the other hand, if bolts were free, what would be wrong with charging for something that was constructed using bolts? Or if it were hammers that were free, with charging for a house that was constructed using the hammer? Or, if I toss aside an umbrella, what's wrong with GoodWill fixing it up and selling it? Scenario: Label: Part of Situation: A GPL word processor and spreadsheet are available separately, for free. An entrepreneur puts them both together into a single downloadable package, and charges for it. Scenario: Label: Part of, with improvements Situation: As above, only the entrepreneur uses the keystroke definition facility to create a common interface for the individual packages. Scenario: Label: Constructed with Situation: A GPL tree library is used in the construction of a knowledge repository. Scenario: Label: Constructed with, after modification Situation: A GPL tree library is heavily hacked and modified, and then used in the construction of a knowledge repository. I don't see anything wrong with someone adding a charge, in these scenarios. One can even see could that could come of it, in each case. (In the first example, the ability to market the items could greatly hasten the adoption curve.) So I wonder what the GPL aficianados will have to say... From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 30 13:20:01 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2A77956FFC; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A775F56FFB for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:19:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29726 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:38:19 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g8UKcJi24664 for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:38:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D98B69A.265BDDC0@sun.com> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:39:54 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL: Socialist Agenda? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org "Dennis E. Hamilton" wrote: > I think the comment was on Maloney's appeal to authority (Gosling) in > forwarding the snippet he did. I have to reiterate. Citing a source is not the same as an appeal to authority. Citing a well-respected source, accompanied either by an accurate synopsis or a well-chosen quote, is a time-honored practice that is the foundation of academic scholarship. Now THIS is a (deliciously recursive) appeal to authority: Trust me on this. I majored in Philosophy, with an emphasis on mathematical and symbolic logic, and syllogistic reasoning. I know these things. I'm an authority on what constitutes an appeal to authority, so I appeal to you to appeal to me, amidst peals of laughter, no doubt... From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 30 13:34:05 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 32A3E56FFC; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc01.attbi.com (sccrmhc01.attbi.com [204.127.202.61]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 933C556FFB for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jacklaptop ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc01.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020930204851.EMED6431.sccrmhc01.attbi.com@jacklaptop> for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:48:51 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020930134446.02578a00@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 13:45:40 -0700 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-unrev-talk] Fwd: [issues] Excerpts from Ken Wilber Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_15448763==_.ALT" Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org --=====================_15448763==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From: Thommandel@aol.com > > >Excerpt A: An Integral Age at the Leading Edge >Introduction > >INTRODUCTION=20 >PART I=20 >PART II= =20 >PART= III >Page 1 >Page 2= =20 >PART IV > >Page 1 >Page 2= =20 >PART V=20 >NOTES > >Notes= 1-8 >Notes= =20 >9-19 >Notes= =20 >20-30 > > Let us begin this overview by first noting what appears to be a=20 > rather dismal fact: today we hear a lot about Cultural Creatives and the= =20 > new and exciting rise of an Integral Culture--a holistic, balanced,=20 > inclusive, caring culture that moves beyond the traditional and the=20 > modern and into a postmodern transformation. But, in fact, significant=20 > psychological evidence indicates that in today's world, less than 2% of=20 > the population is at anything that could be called an "integral" wave of= =20 > awareness (where "integral" means something like Gebser's=20 > integral-aperspectival, Loevinger's autonomous and integrated stages,=20 > Spiral Dynamics' yellow and turquoise memes, Wade's authentic, Arlin's=20 > postformal, the centauric self and mature vision-logic, etc.). > The same evidence suggests, however, that a very large percentage=20 > of the population--close to 25%--is at the immediately preceding wave of= =20 > development (which is Loevinger's individualistic stage, Spiral Dynamics'= =20 > green meme, Paul Ray's cultural creatives, Wade's affiliative, Sinnott's= =20 > relativistic, etc.). Moreover, because most of this population has been=20 > at the green-meme wave for several decades, it appears that a large=20 > portion--perhaps up to one-third--are ready to move forward to the next=20 > wave of expanding consciousness--which means, move forward to a truly=20 > integral wave of awareness. > In other words, that modest 2% of the population that is now=20 > integral might soon swell to 5%, 10%, or more. I believe that, as with=20 > any evolutionary unfolding, we will especially start to see evidence of=20 > this increasingly integral consciousness at the growing tip, or at the=20 > leading edge, or in the avant garde (by whatever appellation)--in=20 > academia, the arts, social movements, spirituality, thought leaders.=20 > "Integral theories"--or attempts at such--are already starting to emerge= =20 > across the board in academia, especially as the leading-edge theorists=20 > continue to throw off the yoke of extreme postmodern pluralism (and the=20 > green meme) and start finding not just the incommensurabilities but the=20 > integral commonalities of cultures. There seems to be little doubt that=20 > in so many ways the growing tip is reaching toward the integral light.... > In short, we appear to be entering an integral age at the leading=20 > edge (with significant portions of the culture at large to follow). > This is exactly why, I believe, Jeffrey Alexander, America's most=20 > gifted and influential social theorist (and, I might add, brother of the= =20 > late Skip Alexander, one of the finest theoreticians of consciousness=20 > this country has ever produced), found three major movements in modern=20 > social theory: functionalism, microsociology, and synthesis. > 1. The first movement, especially prominent after WWII, was classic= =20 > structural-functionalism, or simply functionalism, which touched=20 > virtually all areas of psychology and sociology, and found its ablest=20 > proponent in Talcott Parsons. This was an admirable attempt to bring a=20 > systems theory perspective to the human sciences, but one marred by the=20 > limited adequacy of theoretical physics and biology at the time. If you=20 > are trying to draw parallels between natural and social systems, and=20 > natural systems are thought to be governed by concepts such as=20 > equilibrium and homeostasis--instead of seeing that they also possess=20 > self-organization with an intrinsic drive to higher levels of order out=20 > of chaos--then you are going to arrive at a very static social systems=20 > theory, one that could (and would) be charged with being a thinly=20 > disguised form of political conservatism. Your systems theory is a=20 > Republican in drag. > In many ways, classical functionalism was the product of a=20 > conceptualization capacity whose center of gravity was still formal=20 > operational (orange-meme), which tends to cognize universal systems, but= =20 > only insofar as they are more static and unchanging, and not in their=20 > dialectical, chaotic, and transformative modes (which tend to be best=20 > captured by postformal cognition). Still, the insights and contributions= =20 > of Parsons were so profound and so far-reaching that all present-day=20 > theories, if they hope to be adequate, attempt to "include and transcend"= =20 > Parsons (as has Habermas, Luhmann, Alexander, Bailey, etc.). Parsons, for= =20 > example, had an unerring intuition of the necessity to include all four=20 > quadrants in any social theory, which he called "four generic types of=20 > subsystems": the organism (UR), the social system (LR), the cultural=20 > system (LL), and the personality (UL). Still, classic functionalism was=20 > doomed in its original form, and it began, especially in the late sixties= =20 > and early seventies, to be eclipsed by the next wave of social theory,=20 > that of microsociology. > 2. As the green meme started to emerge on a more widespread scale,= =20 > it began to displace the orange meme at the leading edge of the academic= =20 > elite, and thus the modernism of orange universalism gave way to the=20 > postmodernism of green pluralism. Where the former was marked by static=20 > universal systems governing all cultures, the latter was marked by=20 > relativism, multiculturalism, diversity studies, and incommensurabilities= =20 > of every imaginable variety. This was, in many ways, the first move from= =20 > formalism to postformalism, and the result was a much-needed turn away=20 > from abstract grand theories, big pictures, metanarratives, and universal= =20 > formalism, toward a detailed attention to particulars, to cultural=20 > nuances and important differences, with an emphasis on marginalized=20 > sectors and heterogeneity. Orange-meme sociology gave way to green-meme=20 > sociology, and the age of microsociology began. > Three decades of microsociology have show us both its strengths and= =20 > its weaknesses. By the middle 1990s, the weaknesses had become=20 > increasingly obvious and insurmountable, and microsociology was replaced= =20 > at the leading edge by accelerating attempts to find an integral=20 > interpretation that incorporated the important contributions from all of= =20 > the previous approaches, including functionalism and microsociology. As=20 > Alexander points out, social theory therefore entered its emerging third= =20 > phase, so that "it is not surprising, therefore, that contemporary=20 > theorists have returned to the project of=20 > synthesis." fm/xid,5395124/html/books/kosmos/excerptA/notes-1.cfm#fn1>1 > 3. Thus we arrive at today: a project of synthesis, an integral age= =20 > at the leading edge, which is only a few years old. As a larger movement= =20 > (spreading outward beyond a handful of pioneers over the last few=20 > decades), it is really just now beginning with the dawn of the new=20 > millennium. What this larger movement very likely represents is the=20 > transformation from green to yellow, from intra-cultural to=20 > trans-cultural, from ethnocentric pluralism to global integralism, from=20 > relativistic to holistic. Whereas the "big pictures" of the orange=20 > "universal systems" harshly excluded an appropriate sensitivity to=20 > cultural diversity, to world-making intersubjectivity, to the enactive=20 > (not merely representational) activity of cognition, and to the=20 > irreducible heterogeneity of many systems, the post-green big pictures=20 > that are starting to emerge at the dawn of the age of synthesis all=20 > explicitly include and build upon the green-meme contributions of=20 > microsociology, but without getting lost in an attention to trees so=20 > fierce that it denies the existence of forests. > An integral age at the leading edge, a big picture of many forests,= =20 > an age of synthesis arising from the ruins of pluralism washed ashore.=20 > This integral age at the leading edge is one of the essential themes of=20 > the following presentation. > >=A92002 Shambhala=20 >Publications --------------------------------------------------------------------------- XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web. Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2. http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog=20 --=====================_15448763==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From: Thommandel@aol.com


Excerpt A: An Integral Age a= t the Leading Edge
Introduction

INTRODUCTION PART I PART II PART III
Page 1
Page 2 PART IV

Page 1
Page 2 PART V NOTES

Notes 1-8
Notes 9-19
Notes 20-30


     Let us begin this overview= by first noting what appears to be a rather dismal fact: today we hear a= lot about Cultural Creatives and the new and exciting rise of an= Integral Culture--a holistic, balanced, inclusive, caring culture= that moves beyond the traditional and the modern and into a postmodern= transformation. But, in fact, significant psychological evidence indicates= that in today's world, less than 2% of the population is at anything= that could be called an "integral" wave of awareness (where= "integral" means something like Gebser's= integral-aperspectival, Loevinger's autonomous and= integrated stages, Spiral Dynamics' yellow and= turquoise memes, Wade's authentic, Arlin's postformal,= the centauric self and mature vision-logic, etc.).
      The same evidence suggests, however, that a= very large percentage of the population--close to 25%--is at the= immediately preceding wave of development (which is Loevinger's= individualistic stage, Spiral Dynamics' green meme, Paul= Ray's cultural creatives, Wade's affiliative, Sinnott's= relativistic, etc.). Moreover, because most of this population has= been at the green-meme wave for several decades, it appears that a large= portion--perhaps up to one-third--are ready to move forward to the next= wave of expanding consciousness--which means, move forward to a truly= integral wave of awareness.
      In other words, that modest 2% of the= population that is now integral might soon swell to 5%, 10%, or more. I= believe that, as with any evolutionary unfolding, we will especially start= to see evidence of this increasingly integral consciousness at the growing= tip, or at the leading edge, or in the avant garde (by whatever= appellation)--in academia, the arts, social movements, spirituality,= thought leaders. "Integral theories"--or attempts at such--are= already starting to emerge across the board in academia, especially as the= leading-edge theorists continue to throw off the yoke of extreme postmodern= pluralism (and the green meme) and start finding not just the= incommensurabilities but the integral commonalities of cultures. There= seems to be little doubt that in so many ways the growing tip is reaching= toward the integral light....
     In short, we appear to be entering an= integral age at the leading edge (with significant portions of the= culture at large to follow).
     This is exactly why, I believe, Jeffrey Alexander,= America's most gifted and influential social theorist (and, I might add,= brother of the late Skip Alexander, one of the finest theoreticians of= consciousness this country has ever produced), found three major= movements in modern social theory: functionalism, microsociology, and= synthesis.
     1. The first movement, especially prominent after= WWII, was classic structural-functionalism, or simply functionalism,= which touched virtually all areas of psychology and sociology, and found= its ablest proponent in Talcott Parsons. This was an admirable attempt to= bring a systems theory perspective to the human sciences, but one= marred by the limited adequacy of theoretical physics and biology at the= time. If you are trying to draw parallels between natural and social= systems, and natural systems are thought to be governed by concepts such as= equilibrium and homeostasis--instead of seeing that they also possess= self-organization with an intrinsic drive to higher levels of order out of= chaos--then you are going to arrive at a very static social systems= theory, one that could (and would) be charged with being a thinly disguised= form of political conservatism. Your systems theory is a Republican in= drag.
     In many ways, classical functionalism was the= product of a conceptualization capacity whose center of gravity was still= formal operational (orange-meme), which tends to cognize universal systems,= but only insofar as they are more static and unchanging, and not in their= dialectical, chaotic, and transformative modes (which tend to be best= captured by postformal cognition). Still, the insights and contributions of= Parsons were so profound and so far-reaching that all present-day theories,= if they hope to be adequate, attempt to "include and transcend"= Parsons (as has Habermas, Luhmann, Alexander, Bailey, etc.). Parsons, for= example, had an unerring intuition of the necessity to include all four= quadrants in any social theory, which he called "four generic types of= subsystems": the organism (UR), the social system (LR), the cultural= system (LL), and the personality (UL). Still, classic functionalism was= doomed in its original form, and it began, especially in the late sixties= and early seventies, to be eclipsed by the next wave of social theory, that= of microsociology.
      2. As the green meme started to emerge on a= more widespread scale, it began to displace the orange meme at the leading= edge of the academic elite, and thus the modernism of orange universalism= gave way to the postmodernism of green pluralism. Where the former was= marked by static universal systems governing all cultures, the latter was= marked by relativism, multiculturalism, diversity studies, and= incommensurabilities of every imaginable variety. This was, in many ways,= the first move from formalism to postformalism, and the result was a= much-needed turn away from abstract grand theories, big pictures,= metanarratives, and universal formalism, toward a detailed attention to= particulars, to cultural nuances and important differences, with an= emphasis on marginalized sectors and heterogeneity. Orange-meme sociology= gave way to green-meme sociology, and the age of microsociology= began.
      Three decades of microsociology have show us= both its strengths and its weaknesses. By the middle 1990s, the weaknesses= had become increasingly obvious and insurmountable, and microsociology was= replaced at the leading edge by accelerating attempts to find an integral= interpretation that incorporated the important contributions from all of= the previous approaches, including functionalism and microsociology. As= Alexander points out, social theory therefore entered its emerging third= phase, so that "it is not surprising, therefore, that contemporary= theorists have returned to the project of synthesis."1
      3. Thus we arrive at today: a project of= synthesis, an integral age at the leading edge, which is only a= few years old. As a larger movement (spreading outward beyond a handful of= pioneers over the last few decades), it is really just now beginning with= the dawn of the new millennium. What this larger movement very likely= represents is the transformation from green to yellow, from intra-cultural= to trans-cultural, from ethnocentric pluralism to global integralism, from= relativistic to holistic. Whereas the "big pictures" of the= orange "universal systems" harshly excluded an appropriate= sensitivity to cultural diversity, to world-making intersubjectivity, to= the enactive (not merely representational) activity of cognition, and to= the irreducible heterogeneity of many systems, the post-green big pictures= that are starting to emerge at the dawn of the age of synthesis all= explicitly include and build upon the green-meme contributions of= microsociology, but without getting lost in an attention to trees so fierce= that it denies the existence of forests.
      An integral age at the leading edge, a big= picture of many forests, an age of synthesis arising from the ruins of= pluralism washed ashore. This integral age at the leading edge is one of= the essential themes of the following presentation.

=A92002 Shambhala= Publications

-----------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
XML Topic Maps: Creating and Using Topic Maps for the Web.
Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-74960-2.

http://www.nexist.org/wiki/User0Blog --=====================_15448763==_.ALT-- From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 30 14:09:44 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B9A4C56FFC; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net [209.226.175.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D32CA56FFB for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sympatico.ca ([64.228.165.187]) by tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net (InterMail vM.5.01.04.19 201-253-122-122-119-20020516) with ESMTP id <20020930212804.POVM26978.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@sympatico.ca> for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:28:04 -0400 Message-ID: <3D98C0FE.6EEC9FD4@sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 17:24:14 -0400 From: Henry K van Eyken X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] Not In Our Name References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Dennis, Murray. Thanks for pointing to Anup Shah's site on global issues. Looks like an fine and important effort; the kind of effort we should in principle like to associate with especially with the stated attempt at balanced reporting and opinionating. It's unfortunate that it is impossible to discuss all the world's important issues on a forum of this kind. That just takes time and energy away from acting. My own inclination is to limit my participation here to "Bootstrap activities," but bearing in mind that these do very much relate to society. Henry P.S. If this message does not quite fit the "thread" it is because I have run into a streak of computer problems and a load of other things to pay attention to. It never rains, but it pours. Sorry. From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 30 16:12:09 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B78C356FFD; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:12:08 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.77]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FEAD56FFB for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.38.57]) by cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:29:17 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL? Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:30:24 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <3D98B38E.4238117A@sun.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Sep 2002 23:29:17.0870 (UTC) FILETIME=[322B84E0:01C268D9] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org There is nothing in the GPL that prevents anyone from charging a fee for support, for value-added, for anything. There is a restriction about charging for compilations, as I recall, but I haven't gone back to check. Generally, there is no limitation on commerce in GPL'd works. "Free" is not used in the sense of at no expense. People are free to trade in GPL'd works. That isn't the viral quality. Likewise, there is no limitation on reselling, any more than you are restricted from selling your used textbooks to someone (including the bookstore, that then resells them). I think the viral quality arises in two regards. First, you must always make the original source available (i.e., tell people where they can get it if you don't include it in your distribution). And you can't restrict that. Secondly, if you make a *derivative* work, and distribute it to others, it must be licensed under the GPL with exactly the same conditions. You can sell your derivative work, but it must be GPL'd. Which means the source code must be available and readily accessible. Now there is lots of cyber-lawyering on what "derivative work" means. Those who fear the GPL think it would taint things like the operating system you run it on and scripts that link to it or bind the GPL'd work into other things. Microsoft makes scare statements about that sort of thing. Stallman has made statements that suggest he holds that view too. But Stallman is not a Federal judge, nor are the anti-GPL wonks at Microsoft. The LGPL (designed for libraries and components of others) is available and clearly does not cause an "using" work to be a "derivative" work. That is the fundamental difference between the GPL and the LGPL, the limitation of the sense of derivative work. I find the LGPL defective in other respects, in that it is too specific about what it means for something to be a library. It's a technical definition and what's needed is some kind of court-identifiable principle. (And IANAL nor a Federal judge.) This strong GPL sense of derivative work has never been tested in court. It is mostly speculative as far as I can tell. It does leave people concerned that they could be in violation or that they could be accused of violating the spirit of the GPL if not the letter of it. There are non-GPL open-source licenses that are more like quit claims with respect to the copyright holders exclusive right to create derivative works. The BSD-flavor licenses are of this kind. That is, there is no limitation on the making of derivative works, and a completely-proprietary derivative could be created. Now as it happens, this only makes the new portion of the copyrightable subject matter proprietary. The new copyright claim simply doesn't apply to the borrowed part. There is no reverse-virality with regard to taking open-source and making it someone's property, thereby misappropriating the original work. Copyright doesn't work like that. I favor the BSD-style approach with one additional proviso -- anything that is derived from the work needs to disclose its heritage and tell people where to find the original work, even though the derivative is not distributed with the same license. Also, on projects that involve middleware, there might need to be a non-confusion clause and an agreement to honor agreed integration requirements before a derivative could be offered as a substitute for the original work. But that has to do with preservation of an integration and interoperability agreement. Generally, BSD-style is fine, and when developing derivatives of a GPL work (e.g., a Python Wiki that I want to convert to Javascript and ASP) the thing to do is honor the license. Or not use the original work. It is really, at bottom, very simple. -- Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 13:27 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL? Chris Dent wrote: > ... I'm in favor of the GPL exactly because it restrains > downstreams developers from turning my goodwill contribution to the > commonweal into a profit generating system that benefits only them. My first inclination is to agree. And just as Gosling sees no problem if people want to give something away, there surely can be no problem in giving in such a way that the gift remains free. For example, if I ever get that land-for-farming foundation started, the land could be sold for a $1, if there were a way to write the deed so it could never be resold for more than that, no matter who gets it. That's the only way to eventually turn off the heat on the economic pressure cooker. On the other hand, if bolts were free, what would be wrong with charging for something that was constructed using bolts? Or if it were hammers that were free, with charging for a house that was constructed using the hammer? Or, if I toss aside an umbrella, what's wrong with GoodWill fixing it up and selling it? Scenario: Label: Part of Situation: A GPL word processor and spreadsheet are available separately, for free. An entrepreneur puts them both together into a single downloadable package, and charges for it. Scenario: Label: Part of, with improvements Situation: As above, only the entrepreneur uses the keystroke definition facility to create a common interface for the individual packages. Scenario: Label: Constructed with Situation: A GPL tree library is used in the construction of a knowledge repository. Scenario: Label: Constructed with, after modification Situation: A GPL tree library is heavily hacked and modified, and then used in the construction of a knowledge repository. I don't see anything wrong with someone adding a charge, in these scenarios. One can even see could that could come of it, in each case. (In the first example, the ability to market the items could greatly hasten the adoption curve.) So I wonder what the GPL aficianados will have to say... From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 30 16:12:10 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id DB7B256FFF; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.77]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3234756FFC for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.38.57]) by cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:29:18 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL? - Case-by-Case Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 16:30:25 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 In-Reply-To: <3D98B38E.4238117A@sun.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Sep 2002 23:29:18.0526 (UTC) FILETIME=[328F9DE0:01C268D9] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Hmm, here's a blow by blow case by case based on my understanding. -- Dennis -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 13:27 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL? [ ... ] Scenario: Label: Part of Situation: A GPL word processor and spreadsheet are available separately, for free. An entrepreneur puts them both together into a single downloadable package, and charges for it. Scenario: Label: Part of, with improvements Situation: As above, only the entrepreneur uses the keystroke definition facility to create a common interface for the individual packages. Scenario: Label: Constructed with Situation: A GPL tree library is used in the construction of a knowledge repository. Scenario: Label: Constructed with, after modification Situation: A GPL tree library is heavily hacked and modified, and then used in the construction of a knowledge repository. I don't see anything wrong with someone adding a charge, in these scenarios. One can even see could that could come of it, in each case. (In the first example, the ability to market the items could greatly hasten the adoption curve.) So I wonder what the GPL aficianados will have to say... -- orcmid (who really loves this cyber-lawyer stuff) From owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Sep 30 20:22:53 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8947A56FFC; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com [207.46.181.80]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E7D2556FFB for ; Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:22:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from centro ([63.231.38.57]) by cpimssmtpu04.email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.4905); Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:40:01 -0700 From: "Dennis E. Hamilton" To: Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL? - GCC phobia Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2002 20:41:09 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Oct 2002 03:40:01.0603 (UTC) FILETIME=[38EF0130:01C268FC] Sender: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org I noticed a latent case in your example that is worth addressing. There are those who are afraid that if they use GCC, the Gnu C Compiler, then the programs they build with it must be GPL'd. That's nonsense. Partly because of what copyright applies to. (IMHO) The copyright of software is treated as the copyright of a literary work. (You used to use the very same form on the registration. I don't know if that is still true.) Copyright applies to the expression of something, and not to the idea expressed (very important -- patents can apply to the realization of ideas, copyright cannot). Now, it is the particular expression of GCC (the source code and the related binary) that is the subject of copyright, and that the copyright notion of derivative work applies to. The *operation* of a GCC carried out by compiling and executing it might be considered the performance of a work in the performing arts (why not?) but I haven't found any copyright wonk willing to go down that particular rats nest. But to extend the copyright license to the product of a performance is too great a reach. For one thing, copyright applies to the original expression of an author. The GCC compiler has no standing as an author. The only original expression involved is *your* original expression embodied in the source code fed into GCC. GCC has nothing to do with the copyrightable subject matter in your input to it. (And remember that languages are not considered to be copyrightable subject matter.) It is also important to realize that there are non-copyrightable literary expressions, no matter how original when uttered by each of us. We don't need to get into the details of it, but the output of a compiler is of itself mostly utilitarian and neither literary or original. I don't know that it has been tested, but being the result of an algorithm is probably enough to impeach any claim to (automatic) copyright for the "utterance." Whatever there is of original expression will be what was provided in the input that is copyrightable subject matter. Any protection of the object code is in the sense that it is a derivative fixation of the source code. (I think that when a program copyright is registered it is the source code that is submitted, not a binary. Again, that might be old practice.) That's what I say, as a charter member of the prolific IANAL club! -- Dennis -----Original Message----- From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamilton@acm.org] Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 16:30 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: RE: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL? -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org]On Behalf Of Eric Armstrong Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 13:27 To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-unrev-talk] GPL? [ ... ] On the other hand, if bolts were free, what would be wrong with charging for something that was constructed using bolts? Or if it were hammers that were free, with charging for a house that was constructed using the hammer? Or, if I toss aside an umbrella, what's wrong with GoodWill fixing it up and selling it? [ ... ]