From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Nov 9 16:08:21 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0CF9C56F75; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 16:08:19 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3C4F56F72; Fri, 9 Nov 2001 16:08:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-63-201-91-208.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([63.201.91.208]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GMK00GDD6BBRV@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net>; Fri, 09 Nov 2001 18:21:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 15:16:20 -0800 (PST) From: Eugene Eric Kim Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Bootstrap Alliance changes; new mailing lists X-X-Sender: To: unrev-ii@yahoogroups.com, ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Eugene Eric Kim Dear Bootstrap community, Most of you are familiar with Doug Engelbart's life mission: to improve humanity's collective capability for solving complex, urgent problems. A few years ago, Doug established the Bootstrap Alliance (BA) in order to help further his goals. Most recently, Peter Yim organized and led the 2000 Stanford Colloquium under the umbrella of BA, for which the unrev-ii mailing list was created. Over the past several months, BA has been undergoing several structural changes in order to make more specific and tangible progress in setting up a Bootstrap framework: coordinating the work of those who wish to contribute to extending Doug's legacy, fundraising, communicating the Bootstrap message, and so on. One significant change was the establishment of the Core Planning Committee (CPC), which has inherited the responsibility for BA's operations. The CPC consists of Doug, myself, Jack Park, Karen Robbins, and Mei Lin Fung, who chairs the committee. We have made significant progress in several areas, and will have a number of announcements to make over the next few weeks. The first announcement is the creation of three new mailing lists: BA-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org BA-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org BA-ohs-talk will replace the ohs-dev, ohs-talk, and ohs-lc mailing lists currently on bootstrap.org. Existing subscribers won't have to do anything to subscribe; they have been automatically migrated to the new list. BA-unrev-talk will replace this Yahoo Groups mailing list. Unfortunately, due to some snafus with the Yahoo Groups system, we are not able to automatically migrate everyone on unrev-ii to the new list, so all of you will have to join the new list manually. Instructions for subscribing and unsubscribing to the new lists, as well as links to the archives, are at: http://www.bootstrap.org/lists/ These new lists are active immediately. We will expire unrev-ii in a few weeks. Finally, one of the CPC's main goals is to improve the communication channels between BA and the rest of this community. The energy, enthusiasm, and commitment of the Bootstrap community is what has kept this initiative alive, and we hope to build on that. In this vein, we welcome feedback. Please feel free to e-mail your thoughts, comments, questions, and ideas to feedback@bootstrap.org. We may not be able to respond to every e-mail, but we will read and consider all of your comments carefully. Thanks! -Eugene Bootstrap Alliance, Core Planning Committee member -- +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim@eekim.com ===== http://www.eekim.com/ ===+ | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they | +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve Martin ===========+ From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Nov 11 07:21:06 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D38A556F75; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 07:21:01 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.176]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED16E56F72 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 07:20:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-109.hodad.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.160.109] helo=vaio) by cmailg6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 162wcJ-0002g9-00; Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:33:52 +0000 Message-ID: <003901c16ac6$44894440$6da0193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: Cc: Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:33:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Peter Jones" Hi, (cc'ed to Lee's last known email address just in case he's not on ohs-talk yet.) I'm trying to implement my GUI ideas but I want to align my basic node class with NODAL as much as possible. I'm looking at the NODAL interfaces at http://nodal.sourceforge.net/javadoc/index.html and I'dlike to know how finalised are those interfaces? If I'm not talking sense in what follows that's because I'm only just starting out with actually practising Java. (Anyone want to offer to be my Java mentor? Offers greatly appreciated.) In Nodal, why are there three subclass interfaces of Node: MapNode, SequenceNode, StructNode? The reason I'm asking is because I was going to make a distinction between hyperlinks and nodes in the data model for my GUI, so I (think I) only have a base Node-interfacing class (say pNode) that extends java.util.Vector (is that allowed?), and then a Link class that is a specialisation of pNode to hold hyperlink data (binary link, extensible to n-ary). Hyperlinks being links that are not parent-child hierarchy relationships, and which might extend beyond a particular NodeView of the GUI. Also, NODAL looks highly interlinked, lots of interfaces requiring lots of other types, so is it likely that I'll have to implement most of Nodal just to use the Node interface properly? Thanks, Peter Peter Jones ppj@concept67.fsnet.co.uk From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 01:16:56 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 94AFE56F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:16:55 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C37856F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 01:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-63-201-91-186.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([63.201.91.186]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GMO00JUBL1R7T@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 03:29:52 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 00:24:50 -0800 (PST) From: Eugene Eric Kim Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL In-reply-to: <003901c16ac6$44894440$6da0193e@vaio> X-X-Sender: To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Eugene Eric Kim On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Peter Jones wrote: > In Nodal, why are there three subclass interfaces of Node: MapNode, > SequenceNode, StructNode? NODAL is a data modeling language based on HyTime/SGML Groves. Data may be either an atomic type (i.e. int, char, etc.) or a node type. The three node types -- MapNode, SequenceNode, StructNode -- are equivalent to hashes, lists, and structs. If you're modeling some data in NODAL and you need one of the latter three data types, then you use the appropriate node type. -Eugene -- +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim@eekim.com ===== http://www.eekim.com/ ===+ | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they | +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve Martin ===========+ From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 05:45:19 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2BB8D56F77; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:45:18 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk (mail4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FD456F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:45:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-111.anadrol.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.79.111] helo=vaio) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 163HbG-0006nc-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:58:10 +0000 Message-ID: <005e01c16b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:56:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Hi Eugene, >MapNode, SequenceNode, StructNode -- are equivalent to > hashes, lists, and structs. Yes, thanks, I'd understood that. What I was really asking is "Is it really necessary to have these three distinct types if nodes are built up of other nodes?" (I'll have to practice writing better questions.) For instance, does the distinction between Sequence- and StructNode, and MapNode types go away if the Enumeration interface-implementing data class you use can store different types at the same time (e.g. Vector) ? And I might implement a property-value pair as a link node between two nodes, and a MapNode as a Vector of LinkNodes. What role(s) do the derivative types, Map, Seq..,Struct really play? In the GUI ideas I posted I wanted everything to be a Node (hyperlink LinkNodes were a specialisation of Node), and a node was defined by its content and any (type-)name(s) it might have. My view was that everything should be transparently a node or node-composite, in as simplistic terms as possible, as far as the user view is concerned. And I'm not sure I agree with the definition of a text document as solely "a sequence of lines, represented as strings". I think this point is going to prove very controversial. For me, a text document should just be a sequence of characters (char[]) at the lowest API level, with '\n' just being another character. The interpretation of '\n' as a line-breaking character depends on the task in hand. This means that I might want to optionally specify how the file data is picked up depending on what I have in mind. Most programming language already have a 'getline' type function in their core libraries. Where that idea breaks for me, is that I will want to insert other nodes (childNodes) into the stream of text content, in which case a node that was previously only a single char[] has to become a sequence of nodes, some of which are char[] and others which are not because they hold data further down the branch of the tree. However, this is probably not that difficult (he says, with fingers and toes crossed) to program. Tracking node changes then becomes trickier though as the node histories somehow have to register the split (or merger?). Cheers, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eugene Eric Kim" To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL > On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Peter Jones wrote: > > > In Nodal, why are there three subclass interfaces of Node: MapNode, > > SequenceNode, StructNode? > > NODAL is a data modeling language based on HyTime/SGML Groves. Data may > be either an atomic type (i.e. int, char, etc.) or a node type. The three > node types -- MapNode, SequenceNode, StructNode -- are equivalent to > hashes, lists, and structs. If you're modeling some data in NODAL and you > need one of the latter three data types, then you use the appropriate node > type. > > -Eugene > > -- > +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim@eekim.com ===== http://www.eekim.com/ ===+ > | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they | > +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve Martin ===========+ > > From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 05:45:19 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 647A856F72; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:45:18 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail4.svr.pol.co.uk (mail4.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.211]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127AC56F75 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 05:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-111.anadrol.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.79.111] helo=vaio) by mail4.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 163HbI-0006nc-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:58:12 +0000 Message-ID: <005f01c16b82$10dca260$6f4f883e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <4.2.2.20011111100711.03899c50@thinkalong.com> Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:57:52 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thanks, Jack! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Park" To: "Peter Jones" Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL > Peter, > Here are the interfaces I built based on the javadocs for NODAL. I have no > idea if they are current. Also, in trying to correlate the various prose > with the interfaces, we find that it's not easy to go very far with this. > > Happy to talk Java with you! > > Cheers > Jack > > At 03:33 PM 11/11/2001 +0000, you wrote: > >Hi, > > > >(cc'ed to Lee's last known email address just in case he's not on ohs-talk > >yet.) > > > >I'm trying to implement my GUI ideas but I want to align my basic node class > >with NODAL as much as possible. > >I'm looking at the NODAL interfaces at > >http://nodal.sourceforge.net/javadoc/index.html > >and I'dlike to know how finalised are those interfaces? > > > >If I'm not talking sense in what follows that's because I'm only just > >starting out with actually practising Java. (Anyone want to offer to be my > >Java mentor? Offers greatly appreciated.) > > > >In Nodal, why are there three subclass interfaces of Node: MapNode, > >SequenceNode, StructNode? > > > >The reason I'm asking is because I was going to make a distinction between > >hyperlinks and nodes in the data model for my GUI, so I (think I) only have > >a base Node-interfacing class (say pNode) that extends java.util.Vector (is > >that allowed?), and then a Link class that is a specialisation of pNode to > >hold hyperlink data (binary link, extensible to n-ary). Hyperlinks being > >links that are not parent-child hierarchy relationships, and which might > >extend beyond a particular NodeView of the GUI. > > > >Also, NODAL looks highly interlinked, lots of interfaces requiring lots of > >other types, so is it likely that I'll have to implement most of Nodal just > >to use the Node interface properly? > > > >Thanks, > >Peter > > > > > >Peter Jones > >ppj@concept67.fsnet.co.uk > From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 06:30:15 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2EF6456F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:30:15 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4C6C56F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:30:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st196.cwo.com [208.186.39.206]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fACEh2VC016654 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:43:07 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011112063812.00dfc870@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 06:41:18 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL In-Reply-To: <005e01c16b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org At 01:56 PM 11/12/2001 +0000, Peter wrote: >Where that idea breaks for me, is that I will want to insert other nodes >(childNodes) into the stream of text content, in which case a node that was >previously only a single char[] has to become a sequence of nodes, some of >which are char[] and others which are not because they hold data further >down the branch of the tree. However, this is probably not that difficult >(he says, with fingers and toes crossed) to program. >Tracking node changes then becomes trickier though as the node histories >somehow have to register the split (or merger?). This is probably where a look at Ted Nelson's Xanalogical structure might be of interest. For Ted, (my interpretation follows) everything gets appended to a long character string and documents are then formed with nodes that contain pointers into that string. You don't actually *insert* anything into the string; rather, you always append to the string, then adjust the *virtual document* that uses the new information. Versioning the *virtual documents* takes care of everything. Jack From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 10:33:21 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 15EFE56F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:33:21 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.180]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275BC56F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:33:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-967.kowabunga.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.255.199] helo=vaio) by imailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 163M63-0004rO-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 18:46:15 +0000 Message-ID: <000201c16baa$4f1875e0$c7ff193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:45:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org I'm reading from NODAL A Filesystem for Ubiquitous Collaboration.htm Section 4.7 "The second type is a more traditional hyperlink. This construct is built on the range type, which represents the collection of nodes between two paths that are the inclusive end-points of the range (note that a simple path is also a range that identifies exactly one node). This collection of nodes is determined by the path difference between the two paths: a relative path from the range start to the range end. Any node in or below the relative path is considered to be part of the graph fragment identified by the range. A hyperlink is then constructed from two or more such range expressions and can be either unidirectional or multidirectional, embedded or external. All such hyperlinks are managed by a linkdatabase that maintains these paths through modifications and delivers link descriptions along with published documents." 31C (0120) Can someone explain to me what the 'or below' in, "Any node in or below the relative path is considered to be part of the graph fragment identified by the range.", means. Thanks, Peter From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 10:49:06 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 3858456F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:49:02 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A4D56F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:49:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net ([64.180.191.238]) by priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.10 201-229-121-110) with ESMTP id <20011112190113.YCXM1117.priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net@bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net> for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:01:13 -0700 Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL From: Lee Iverson To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <000201c16baa$4f1875e0$c7ff193e@vaio> References: <000201c16baa$4f1875e0$c7ff193e@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/0.99.1+cvs.2001.11.07.16.47 (Preview Release) Date: 12 Nov 2001 11:01:13 -0800 Message-Id: <1005591673.2126.0.camel@canoe> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org On Mon, 2001-11-12 at 06:45, Peter Jones wrote: > I'm reading from > NODAL A Filesystem for Ubiquitous Collaboration.htm > Section 4.7 > > "The second type is a more traditional hyperlink. This construct is built on > the range type, which represents the collection of nodes between two paths > that are the inclusive end-points of the range (note that a simple path is > also a range that identifies exactly one node). This collection of nodes is > determined by the path difference between the two paths: a relative path > from the range start to the range end. Any node in or below the relative > path is considered to be part of the graph fragment identified by the range. > A hyperlink is then constructed from two or more such range expressions and > can be either unidirectional or multidirectional, embedded or external. All > such hyperlinks are managed by a linkdatabase that maintains these paths > through modifications and delivers link descriptions along with published > documents." 31C (0120) > > Can someone explain to me what the 'or below' in, > "Any node in or below the relative path is considered to be part of the > graph fragment identified by the range.", > means. Maybe this is a little to complicated to actually achieve, but the notion that a Path is an algebraic unit over which addition and subtraction have meaning was what led to this. It is fairly easy to understand what is meant by a range within a single sequence. We have a start and and end Path and the Range referes to those data items at "or below" those sequence items covered. Thus if the sequence in question is a sequence of Nodes, then the subgraphs accessible from those Nodes are part of the referent of the Range. It's probably just hair-splitting semantics, but the simple idea is that referring to a Node is actually a reference to the whole subgraph addressed by that Node's components. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee Iverson leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T 1R9 http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 11:08:05 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9E57056F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:08:01 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from priv-edtnes10-hme0.telusplanet.net (mtaout.telus.net [199.185.220.235]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04AF556F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:07:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net ([64.180.191.238]) by priv-edtnes10-hme0.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.10 201-229-121-110) with ESMTP id <20011112192054.GAXK16585.priv-edtnes10-hme0.telusplanet.net@bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net> for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:20:54 -0700 Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL From: Lee Iverson To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <005e01c16b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> References: <005e01c16b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/0.99.1+cvs.2001.11.07.16.47 (Preview Release) Date: 12 Nov 2001 11:20:53 -0800 Message-Id: <1005592854.2126.2.camel@canoe> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org On Mon, 2001-11-12 at 05:56, Peter Jones wrote: > Hi Eugene, > > >MapNode, SequenceNode, StructNode -- are equivalent to > > hashes, lists, and structs. > > Yes, thanks, I'd understood that. What I was really asking is "Is it really > necessary to have these three distinct types if nodes are built up of other > nodes?" (I'll have to practice writing better questions.) > For instance, does the distinction between Sequence- and StructNode, and > MapNode types go > away if the Enumeration interface-implementing data class you use can store > different types at the same time (e.g. Vector) ? > And I might implement a property-value pair as a link node between two > nodes, and a MapNode as a Vector of LinkNodes. > > What role(s) do the derivative types, Map, Seq..,Struct really play? > > In the GUI ideas I posted I wanted everything to be a Node (hyperlink > LinkNodes were a specialisation of Node), and a node was defined by its > content and any (type-)name(s) it might have. My view was that everything > should be transparently a node or node-composite, in as simplistic terms as > possible, as far as the user view is concerned. Well, there are really a number of reasons to separate these out. The most obvious one in my mind is simply that manipulating these three kinds of collections (from an object-oriented point of view) is very different. The operations performed on a Struct, Sequence and Map are just completely separate. A Struct has a fixed set of fields and one may only assign new values to them. A Sequence has a set of items of uniform type and we can insert or delete subsequences or set individual items. A Map indexes its values via keys of a defined type and we can either assign values to keys or remove keys. It is certainly true that we could emulate these behaviours with simpler constructs, but then we would lose a great deal of the expressive power of our data modelling language. Remember that one of the fundamental goals of the NODAL data model was the ability to transparently map existing file types and programming language constructs onto the model. With anything less than these types, I'd have a hard time making that claim. Looking at modern ODBMS systems (and especially the ODMG's proposed standards), these building blocks seem to map directly onto current object database constructs as well. > And I'm not sure I agree with the definition of a text document as solely "a > sequence of lines, represented as strings". I think this point is going to > prove very controversial. For me, a text document should just be a sequence > of characters (char[]) at the lowest API level, with '\n' just being another > character. The interpretation of '\n' as a line-breaking character depends > on the task in hand. This means that I might want to optionally specify how > the file data is picked up depending on what I have in mind. Most > programming language already have a 'getline' type function in their core > libraries. Well, you are ignoring the fact that various systems define line endings very differently (e.g. line ending semantics on MS vs. Unix vs. Mac systems). The text encoding for exactly the same file is different on these systems but the data model is identical. (Properly then, the "line" strings in such a file should exclude these line-ending characters ("\r\n" in C parlance). That is not to say that you can't define a file type that is simply an undistinguished sequence of characters for your own purposes. It's not what I have in mind though. > Where that idea breaks for me, is that I will want to insert other nodes > (childNodes) into the stream of text content, in which case a node that was > previously only a single char[] has to become a sequence of nodes, some of > which are char[] and others which are not because they hold data further > down the branch of the tree. However, this is probably not that difficult > (he says, with fingers and toes crossed) to program. > Tracking node changes then becomes trickier though as the node histories > somehow have to register the split (or merger?). Now you're talking about something that is no longer a plain text file (it has content other than just characters). Again, if you need a file type that has content other than just lines of characters, you'll have to define a new document type. This is should be easy enough to do. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee Iverson leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T 1R9 http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 12:47:00 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5DEF256F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:46:59 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.171]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54FF156F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:46:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-1126.grommet.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.174.102] helo=vaio) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 163OBK-0006UE-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:59:51 +0000 Message-ID: <003301c16bbc$f8b4b2a0$c7ff193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <005e01c16b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> <1005592854.2126.2.camel@canoe> Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:58:45 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Iverson" To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 7:20 PM Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL > On Mon, 2001-11-12 at 05:56, Peter Jones wrote: > > Hi Eugene, > > > > >MapNode, SequenceNode, StructNode -- are equivalent to > > > hashes, lists, and structs. > > > > Yes, thanks, I'd understood that. What I was really asking is "Is it really > > necessary to have these three distinct types if nodes are built up of other > > nodes?" (I'll have to practice writing better questions.) > > For instance, does the distinction between Sequence- and StructNode, and > > MapNode types go > > away if the Enumeration interface-implementing data class you use can store > > different types at the same time (e.g. Vector) ? > > And I might implement a property-value pair as a link node between two > > nodes, and a MapNode as a Vector of LinkNodes. > > > > What role(s) do the derivative types, Map, Seq..,Struct really play? > > > > In the GUI ideas I posted I wanted everything to be a Node (hyperlink > > LinkNodes were a specialisation of Node), and a node was defined by its > > content and any (type-)name(s) it might have. My view was that everything > > should be transparently a node or node-composite, in as simplistic terms as > > possible, as far as the user view is concerned. > > Well, there are really a number of reasons to separate these out. The > most obvious one in my mind is simply that manipulating these three > kinds of collections (from an object-oriented point of view) is very > different. The operations performed on a Struct, Sequence and Map are > just completely separate. A Struct has a fixed set of fields and one > may only assign new values to them. A Sequence has a set of items of > uniform type and we can insert or delete subsequences or set individual > items. A Map indexes its values via keys of a defined type and we can > either assign values to keys or remove keys. It is certainly true that > we could emulate these behaviours with simpler constructs, but then we > would lose a great deal of the expressive power of our data modelling > language. [ppj] Or you might gain a powerful generalisation, depending on what you actually end up doing with the data. I see your point, but I'm just wondering whether it's possible to step beyond it by fixing aspects of the general (super)graph instead. Perhaps it becomes too complicated. > > Remember that one of the fundamental goals of the NODAL > data model was the ability to transparently map existing file types > and programming language constructs onto the model. With anything less > than these types, I'd have a hard time making that claim. Looking at > modern ODBMS systems (and especially the ODMG's proposed standards), > these building blocks seem to map directly onto current object database > constructs as well. > > > And I'm not sure I agree with the definition of a text document as solely "a > > sequence of lines, represented as strings". I think this point is going to > > prove very controversial. For me, a text document should just be a sequence > > of characters (char[]) at the lowest API level, with '\n' just being another > > character. The interpretation of '\n' as a line-breaking character depends > > on the task in hand. This means that I might want to optionally specify how > > the file data is picked up depending on what I have in mind. Most > > programming language already have a 'getline' type function in their core > > libraries. > > Well, you are ignoring the fact that various systems define line endings > very differently (e.g. line ending semantics on MS vs. Unix vs. Mac > systems). The text encoding for exactly the same file is different on > these systems but the data model is identical. (Properly then, the > "line" strings in such a file should exclude these line-ending > characters ("\r\n" in C parlance). That is not to say that you can't > define a file type that is simply an undistinguished sequence of > characters for your own purposes. It's not what I have in mind though. [ppj] OK. Neat. I like the approach you're going for. But if that's the case, why have you kept 'characters' as a primitive, and not just made the string type the primitive, leaving char[]'s up to the implementation concerned? > > > Where that idea breaks for me, is that I will want to insert other nodes > > (childNodes) into the stream of text content, in which case a node that was > > previously only a single char[] has to become a sequence of nodes, some of > > which are char[] and others which are not because they hold data further > > down the branch of the tree. However, this is probably not that difficult > > (he says, with fingers and toes crossed) to program. > > Tracking node changes then becomes trickier though as the node histories > > somehow have to register the split (or merger?). > > Now you're talking about something that is no longer a plain text file > (it has content other than just characters). Again, if you need a file > type that has content other than just lines of characters, you'll have > to define a new document type. This is should be easy enough to do. > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Lee Iverson > leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T > 1R9 > http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 > > From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 13:08:06 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8E99156F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:08:05 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from priv-edtnes04-hme0.telusplanet.net (fepout2.telus.net [199.185.220.237]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 197B256F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net ([64.180.191.238]) by priv-edtnes04-hme0.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.10 201-229-121-110) with ESMTP id <20011112212102.NHHT13898.priv-edtnes04-hme0.telusplanet.net@bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net> for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:21:02 -0700 Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL From: Lee Iverson To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <003301c16bbc$f8b4b2a0$c7ff193e@vaio> References: <005e01c16b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> <1005592854.2126.2.camel@canoe> <003301c16bbc$f8b4b2a0$c7ff193e@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/0.99.1+cvs.2001.11.07.16.47 (Preview Release) Date: 12 Nov 2001 13:21:02 -0800 Message-Id: <1005600062.2127.6.camel@canoe> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org On Mon, 2001-11-12 at 12:58, Peter Jones wrote: > > > > Well, there are really a number of reasons to separate these out. The > > most obvious one in my mind is simply that manipulating these three > > kinds of collections (from an object-oriented point of view) is very > > different. The operations performed on a Struct, Sequence and Map are > > just completely separate. A Struct has a fixed set of fields and one > > may only assign new values to them. A Sequence has a set of items of > > uniform type and we can insert or delete subsequences or set individual > > items. A Map indexes its values via keys of a defined type and we can > > either assign values to keys or remove keys. It is certainly true that > > we could emulate these behaviours with simpler constructs, but then we > > would lose a great deal of the expressive power of our data modelling > > language. > > [ppj] Or you might gain a powerful generalisation, depending on what you > actually end up doing with the data. > I see your point, but I'm just wondering whether it's possible to step > beyond it by fixing aspects of the general (super)graph instead. Perhaps it > becomes too complicated. Convince me then. I've used systems (LISP for example) with very simple, general building blocks and seen them evolve toward richer, more targeted ones. It's a balancing act... > > Well, you are ignoring the fact that various systems define line endings > > very differently (e.g. line ending semantics on MS vs. Unix vs. Mac > > systems). The text encoding for exactly the same file is different on > > these systems but the data model is identical. (Properly then, the > > "line" strings in such a file should exclude these line-ending > > characters ("\r\n" in C parlance). That is not to say that you can't > > define a file type that is simply an undistinguished sequence of > > characters for your own purposes. It's not what I have in mind though. > > [ppj] OK. Neat. I like the approach you're going for. But if that's the > case, why have you kept 'characters' as a primitive, and not just made the > string type the primitive, leaving char[]'s up to the implementation > concerned? I also want a general addressing mechanism and using the Node types as the primitives for this allows one to address *inside* of strings just as one would address inside of any other collection. The atomic types are just that -- indivisible. We gain from having strings as a Sequence, and don't really lose anything. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee Iverson leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T 1R9 http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 13:09:14 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id F373C56F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:09:13 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD78B56F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:09:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-63-201-90-7.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([63.201.90.7]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GMP00ASUI0YRH@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:22:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:17:10 -0800 (PST) From: Eugene Eric Kim Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] using mailing lists effectively X-X-Sender: To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org First, a quick note. If you are citing a document with a purple number, please include a link to that purple number. You can usually do that by clicking on the number, and copying and pasting the link to your e-mail app. Second, I recently changed the configuration of ba-ohs-talk and ba-unrev-talk so that the Reply-To header points back to the list. For the most part, most people on Bootstrap-forums don't seem to care, but those who have spoke out have spoken out in favor of pointing back to the list. An IBIS summary of previous discussion on this topic is available here: http://www.eekim.com/ohs/lc/dialogmaps/ohs-lc.html#nid4001 There is also an oft-quoted essay on why Reply-To should point back to the sender: http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html Why do I bring this up? Because I think it's an intriguing example of coevolution. The question is, what should the proper behavior be? When someone sends an e-mail to the entire list when its meant only for the sender, is that just sheer stupidity on the part of the sender, or should the applications do something to help prevent this type of mistake? My gut instinct is that the answer to the latter question is yes, and that e-mail apps should somehow make the editing field of the To: header more prominent. However, I'm not even sure that that would make a real difference, as most people seem to ignore that field by default, assuming that the field is always correctly set when they hit "Reply." This behavior is one of my pet peeves, as some people don't pay any attention to their To and Cc headers at all. I receive extraneous e-mail all the time, simply because some people are too lazy to remove my e-mail address from a header. So the question is, is this a social problem or a technical one? -Eugene -- +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim@eekim.com ===== http://www.eekim.com/ ===+ | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they | +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve Martin ===========+ From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 13:41:40 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E973756F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:41:39 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD28056F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:41:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-63-201-90-7.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([63.201.90.7]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GMP00D8LJJ0X4@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:54:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:49:36 -0800 (PST) From: Eugene Eric Kim Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL In-reply-to: <005e01c16b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> X-X-Sender: To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Peter Jones wrote: > And I'm not sure I agree with the definition of a text document as solely "a > sequence of lines, represented as strings". I think this point is going to > prove very controversial. For me, a text document should just be a sequence > of characters (char[]) at the lowest API level, with '\n' just being another > character. The interpretation of '\n' as a line-breaking character depends > on the task in hand. This means that I might want to optionally specify how > the file data is picked up depending on what I have in mind. Most > programming language already have a 'getline' type function in their core > libraries. This is one of the main differences between NODAL and Groves. In NODAL, nodes are units of data with metadata attached -- version history, access control privileges, etc. A NODAL data model naturally results in a model for addressing documents, but that doesn't seem to be its primary purpose. Defining a data model for addressability is the primary purpose of a Groves data model. So, for example, if you have a Groves data model for a text file consisting of a sequence of nodes, where each node has a single string property consisting of a line of a document, then the smallest unit you can address in that document is a line of text. To allow character-level addressability, you would have to define nodes that contained character properties. I explain this in detail in my introductory paper on Groves: http://www.eekim.com/ohs/papers/grovesintro/index.html This is one of my issues with NODAL. If I want to specify that a document in NODAL be addressed as a long string of characters, even if the NODAL data model defines the document as a list of strings, how do I do that? -Eugene -- +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim@eekim.com ===== http://www.eekim.com/ ===+ | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they | +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve Martin ===========+ From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 14:14:41 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id AE49156F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:14:40 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351AB56F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:14:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.52]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00291 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:27:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id fACMRRf24989 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:27:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3BF04CD8.F4251F20@sun.com> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:27:36 -0800 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] using mailing lists effectively References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Eugene Eric Kim wrote: > ... I receive extraneous e-mail all the > time, simply because some people are too lazy to remove my e-mail address > from a header. So the question is, is this a social problem or a > technical one? I think it is in part a matter of habituation, and therefore a product of the other lists in the world, as well. Basically, a user needs to able to respond to every list in the same way -- whatever that way is. The response is then quickly entrained, and the gesture is always rewarded with the expected behavior. Things go awry when different lists require different responses. It imposes too great a burden to keep track of the discussion in a list and at the same time remember which list it is and what the response-gesture is for that list -- especially if that gesture is at odds with "standard practice", however it may happen to be defined. The one thing MS did for the world, happily, was to define an interface standard. So I can pretty much count on Ctrl+X and Ctrl+V working in every application. Before they played the 800-lb gorilla, there were thousands of interfaces, and no standard at all. The situation is better with respect to lists, but it is reminiscent. One thing I would LOVE to see is an interface-standards body that gave people a "stamp of approval" for adhering to a standard. I know I always chose applications that adhere to the standards I favor. A mechanism that would help promote interface ubiquity would be highly regarded, by me. So, I would ask that we think of the problem in terms of the wider context -- what else is out there, and how do they act. One way to approach that problem would be get a survey of participants in this list, to find out what lists they belong to, and what gestures those lists use. What happens when one chooses reply, reply-all, or other responses on those lists?? My guess is that we'll see something like a 60-40 split, without any solid mandate for a standard... From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 12 14:39:22 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id AFD7656F75; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:39:21 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB3E56F72 for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 14:39:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net ([64.180.191.238]) by priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.10 201-229-121-110) with ESMTP id <20011112225218.FLHB1117.priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net@bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net> for ; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:52:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL From: Lee Iverson To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: References: Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/0.99.1+cvs.2001.11.07.16.47 (Preview Release) Date: 12 Nov 2001 14:52:18 -0800 Message-Id: <1005605538.2127.8.camel@canoe> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org On Mon, 2001-11-12 at 12:49, Eugene Eric Kim wrote: > > This is one of my issues with NODAL. If I want to specify that a document > in NODAL be addressed as a long string of characters, even if the NODAL > data model defines the document as a list of strings, how do I do that? My assumption has always been that one would be able to define adaptors between data models. The difficulty with this is in defining how editing transforms through these adaptors if at all. More on this later... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee Iverson leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T 1R9 http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Nov 13 02:24:09 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1B6B056F75; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 02:24:09 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 904BA56F72 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 02:24:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from [137.108.25.224] (actually host dhcp-kmi-479.open.ac.uk) by venus.open.ac.uk via SMTP Local (Mailer 3.1) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:36:51 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: sjb72@tesla.open.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011110125223.00a9d130@touchgraph.com> References: <000901c1692e$2d482740$3605883e@vaio> <001b01c16953$5cb74040$1fea193e@vaio> <5.1.0.14.0.20011110125223.00a9d130@touchgraph.com> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:36:43 +0000 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Simon Buckingham Shum Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Re: D3E use: WAS: GUI ideas Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Hi - thanks to all for the feedback. We're painfully aware of Phorum's limitations, but wanted to get a d3e-modified first cut out there for use. I'm logging your change requests, but obviously we've gone open source to spread the load too ;-) Watch this space... At 1:14 PM -0500 11/10/01, Alex Shapiro wrote: >1. When I clicked Quote to quote the message I was replying to, the >message appeared as it was without any ">" signs preceding each line. definitely - I wanted to fix this, but it slipped down the list >This makes it impossible to quote between the lines. Also, another >problem with quoting is that the message is quoted with tags >around it, and then does not seem to format properly once it is >displayed. quoting normally just gives plain text - am checking this out >2. There should be an easy way to provide a hyperlink to an >individual message, (not even getting into purple numbers). I >wanted to provide a second response to a message that someone had >already responded to, but to also acknowledge that I had read the >content of the first responce. However, there is no easy way to >provide a hyperlink to an individual message (I think that there >might be a hard way by stealing the link from the tree-navigation). Currently easiest way is the web standard way: just copy the URL of the msg to the clipboard and then paste it into your msg The *current thread* is displayed below the field for composing your comment, so if the target msg is in that thread, you can already see and copy its URL. But if it's in another thread, then you can freely browse the tree to find the target, if you've opened the Reply box in a fresh window. I appreciate that this isn't quite as elegant as it might be. We have considered adding all sorts of wizzy javascript that modifies the right menu etc, but these tend to be browser specific - we wouldn't be happy if all this worked only in IE! A complete applet seems often the only way to implement really elegant user interfaces. But the PHP code's there, ready and waiting... (Gary our developer is doing this whilst *really* working on ScholOnto!) Simon From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Nov 13 03:55:26 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0F1E656F78; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:55:26 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CBE56F72 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 03:55:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [137.108.25.224] (actually host dhcp-kmi-479.open.ac.uk) by venus.open.ac.uk via SMTP Local (Mailer 3.1) with ESMTP; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 12:08:12 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: sjb72@tesla.open.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 12:08:00 +0000 To: unrev-II@yahoogroups.com From: Simon Buckingham Shum Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Re: [unrev-II] Web-based IBIS Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org At 5:40 PM -0500 11/12/01, albert.m.selvin@verizon.com wrote: >Just took a look at Eugene Eric Kim's web IBIS interface (an example at > >http://www.eekim.com/ohs/lc/dialogmaps/ohs-lc.html#nid4001 >). > > >The Mifflin tool currently creates graphical IBIS HTML maps as an export >function. It adds some metadata and transclusions ('containing views'), as >well as icons, to what the above example shows, as well as some other >features. It could easily be adapted to contain 'purple numbers' as well. > >I bring this up here because we are very interested in gluing such exports >into existing 'live' web-based systems that would allow IBIS discussions >originally generated in a f2f session, as most Mifflin/Compendium maps are, >to continue in an on-line format (and vice versa -- gluing web-based >discussions into the Mifflin f2f format). > >Is this system a possibility? Any others come to mind? > >Thanks, > >Al so... the current D3E discussion on Peter's GUI design principles: http://otis.open.ac.uk/ubiq/d3e_discussion.php?url=www.concept67.fsnet.co.uk/dialogic/gui/index.htm&f=44 would be imported back into a dialogue map such as: http://kmi.open.ac.uk/people/sbs/compendium/d3e2mifflin.jpg (to knock this up I just pasted the discussion into Word, then exported to Mifflin. DB integration is obviously the way to do it properly. For instance a draft Compendium DTD for IBIS maps plus Compendium extensions is at http://d3e.open.ac.uk/compendium/01/comp-dtd-v1/comp-dtd-v1-t.html) This gives us a nice cycle from sync discussion (using dialog mapping), exported to the web for contrinued async discussion (web threads), then imported back into a dialogue map for consolidation, etc. Simon From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Nov 13 06:38:43 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2A4E456F75; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 06:38:43 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail6.svr.pol.co.uk (mail6.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.212]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D88156F72 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 06:38:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-37.scandium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.20.37] helo=vaio) by mail6.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 163euX-0003zk-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:51:37 +0000 Message-ID: <003701c16c52$b158f600$2514883e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <005e01c16b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> <1005592854.2126.2.camel@canoe> <003301c16bbc$f8b4b2a0$c7ff193e@vaio> <1005600062.2127.6.camel@canoe> Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:50:39 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Lee Iverson wrote: > Convince me then. I've used systems (LISP for example) with very > simple, general building blocks and seen them evolve toward richer, > more targeted ones. It's a balancing act... Yes. I think I am looking at it from an access perspective, which is possibly not the view you are taking. So, I might well be missing something crucial. >From an accessing perspective: Take Perl for instance. A hash (map/dictionary in other languages) in perl is accessed by $value = $hashname{$keystr}; #in perl No difference between that and a struct in perl really. In fact, perl basically deals with objects as hashes. So map and struct are definitely very similar, if you ignore the fearsome datatyping of certain other languages. Now, in NODAL, datatypes are a property set on the Node, but otherwise everything is treated as a Node object. Is that correct? So in a strongly typed language like C++ I might declare a map as map; //in C++ And if we escape from the specifics of the C++ language, me might well be talking Node <= {[Node Node] && [Node Node], ...} And to approach the sequence... float f = arrayname[index]; // in C/C++ The difference between an array and the hash above is in the index for addressing. It's restricted to an integer value. Again in NODAL do we have to worry about datatyping in that structure? Node <= {[Node Node] && [Node Node], ...} So the only difference between a map and a sequence in terms of accessing the contents is the restriction on the key type. (And it wouldn't surprise me if that was what perl was doing under the hood in reality when you use arrays.) Now, isn't it the case that in order to perform operations on Nodes, you have to check their datatype property after accessing them? So then, I think I'm really asking, if NODAL is above the particulars of datatyping in a specific programming language (is it?), then does it make sense to specify a uniform approach to the data storage that is independent of the particulars of structs, maps, and sequences? Cheers, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Iverson" To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL > On Mon, 2001-11-12 at 12:58, Peter Jones wrote: > > > > > > Well, there are really a number of reasons to separate these out. The > > > most obvious one in my mind is simply that manipulating these three > > > kinds of collections (from an object-oriented point of view) is very > > > different. The operations performed on a Struct, Sequence and Map are > > > just completely separate. A Struct has a fixed set of fields and one > > > may only assign new values to them. A Sequence has a set of items of > > > uniform type and we can insert or delete subsequences or set individual > > > items. A Map indexes its values via keys of a defined type and we can > > > either assign values to keys or remove keys. It is certainly true that > > > we could emulate these behaviours with simpler constructs, but then we > > > would lose a great deal of the expressive power of our data modelling > > > language. > > > > [ppj] Or you might gain a powerful generalisation, depending on what you > > actually end up doing with the data. > > I see your point, but I'm just wondering whether it's possible to step > > beyond it by fixing aspects of the general (super)graph instead. Perhaps it > > becomes too complicated. > > Convince me then. I've used systems (LISP for example) with very > simple, general building blocks and seen them evolve toward richer, > more targeted ones. It's a balancing act... > > > > Well, you are ignoring the fact that various systems define line endings > > > very differently (e.g. line ending semantics on MS vs. Unix vs. Mac > > > systems). The text encoding for exactly the same file is different on > > > these systems but the data model is identical. (Properly then, the > > > "line" strings in such a file should exclude these line-ending > > > characters ("\r\n" in C parlance). That is not to say that you can't > > > define a file type that is simply an undistinguished sequence of > > > characters for your own purposes. It's not what I have in mind though. > > > > [ppj] OK. Neat. I like the approach you're going for. But if that's the > > case, why have you kept 'characters' as a primitive, and not just made the > > string type the primitive, leaving char[]'s up to the implementation > > concerned? > > I also want a general addressing mechanism and using the Node types as > the primitives for this allows one to address *inside* of strings just > as one would address inside of any other collection. The atomic types > are just that -- indivisible. We gain from having strings as a > Sequence, and don't really lose anything. > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Lee Iverson > leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T > 1R9 > http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 > > From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Nov 13 10:14:45 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 99D6D56F75; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:14:44 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (mail3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96F4756F72 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:14:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-199.tailslide.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.192.199] helo=vaio) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 163iHb-00076I-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:27:40 +0000 Message-ID: <000801c16c70$dff1fe80$c7c0193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <1005605538.2127.8.camel@canoe> Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 18:26:26 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Actually, having thought about it more, and having drawn a few more diagrams on my sketch pad, I'm beginning to see the value of having documents be collections of string nodes, which in turn are collections of characters. It adds an extra layer of indirection in there, making manipulation easier. Cheers, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Iverson" To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL > On Mon, 2001-11-12 at 12:49, Eugene Eric Kim wrote: > > > > This is one of my issues with NODAL. If I want to specify that a document > > in NODAL be addressed as a long string of characters, even if the NODAL > > data model defines the document as a list of strings, how do I do that? > > My assumption has always been that one would be able to define adaptors > between data models. The difficulty with this is in defining how > editing transforms through these adaptors if at all. More on this > later... > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Lee Iverson > leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T > 1R9 > http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 > > From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Nov 13 16:04:36 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id AF43056F75; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:04:35 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29AEF56F72 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st36.cwo.com [208.186.39.46]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAE0HRVC012898 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:17:28 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011113161230.00e03650@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:14:57 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Darwin Information Typing Architecture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-dita1/index.html "The Darwin Information Typing Architecture (DITA) is an XML-based architecture for authoring, producing, and delivering technical information. This article introduces the architecture, which sets forth a set of design principles for creating information-typed modules at a topic level, and for using that content in delivery modes such as online help and product support portals on the Web. This article serves as a roadmap to the Darwin Information Typing Architecture: what it is and how it applies to technical documentation. The article links to representative source code" See also: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-dita2/ "The point of the XML-based Darwin Information Typing Architecture (DITA) is to create modular technical documents that are easy to reuse with varied display and delivery mechanisms, such as helpsets, manuals, hierarchical summaries for small-screen devices, and so on. This article explains how to put the DITA principles into practice. Specialization is the process by which authors and architects define new topic types, while maintaining compatibility with existing style sheets, transforms, and processes. The new topic types are defined as an extension, or delta, relative to an existing topic type, thereby reducing the work necessary to define and maintain the new type. The examples used in this paper use XML DTD syntax and XSLT; if you need background on these subjects, see Resources. " From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Nov 13 17:48:44 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 040C156F75; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:48:43 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1BDC56F72 for ; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 17:48:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-63-201-89-97.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([63.201.89.97]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GMR001LDPMR9H@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:01:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:56:34 -0800 (PST) From: Eugene Eric Kim Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Re: [unrev-II] Web-based IBIS In-reply-to: X-X-Sender: To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org [Moving this discussion to ba-ohs-talk.] On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 albert.m.selvin@verizon.com wrote: > Just took a look at Eugene Eric Kim's web IBIS interface (an example at > http://www.eekim.com/ohs/lc/dialogmaps/ohs-lc.html#nid4001 ). Just a quick note as explanation: I generate these dialog maps using QuestMap, and export them using a tool I wrote called perlIBIS: http://www.eekim.com/software/perlIBIS/ When I get around to it, I'll modify perlIBIS to support Compendium's draft DTD as per Simon's comments, although if someone wants to beat me to it and make the modifications themselves, feel free. :-) > The Mifflin tool currently creates graphical IBIS HTML maps as an export > function. It adds some metadata and transclusions ('containing views'), as > well as icons, to what the above example shows, as well as some other > features. It could easily be adapted to contain 'purple numbers' as well. I'd love to get my hands on Mifflin and use it instead of QuestMap. Any progress on making this open source? Is there any way I could get a license for it in the interim? > I bring this up here because we are very interested in gluing such exports > into existing 'live' web-based systems that would allow IBIS discussions > originally generated in a f2f session, as most Mifflin/Compendium maps are, > to continue in an on-line format (and vice versa -- gluing web-based > discussions into the Mifflin f2f format). > > Is this system a possibility? Any others come to mind? This is my ultimate goal: an integrated dialog map/unstructured discussion system. The evolutionary path is to develop a Web-based dialog mapping app as well as a link database to link the unstructured and structured dialog together. This would be greatly facilitated if Mifflin were open source. -Eugene -- +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim@eekim.com ===== http://www.eekim.com/ ===+ | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they | +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve Martin ===========+ From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 05:12:12 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BF1B156F75; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 05:12:11 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tpamail2.bdi.gte.com (tpamail2.bdi.gte.com [192.76.82.136]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1845556F72 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 05:12:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpftw.interwan.gte.com ([138.83.130.53]) by tpamail2.bdi.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA18493 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:24:57 -0500 (EST) From: albert.m.selvin@verizon.com Received: from smtpftw.interwan.gte.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtpftw.interwan.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05521 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:24:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from dwsmtp01.bell-atl.com (dwmail21.interwan.gte.com [138.83.36.17]) by smtpftw.interwan.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05515 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:24:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Re: [unrev-II] Web-based IBIS To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:24:50 -0500 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on DWSMTP01/HSVR/Verizon(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/14/2001 07:24:55 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org A few notes on Eugene's comments: - as a complement to perlIBIS, we have a VBA tool that creates MS-Word and HTML output from QuestMap exports; it can (and has) also been adapted to produce a wide range of custom output in all sorts of document, diagram, and other format (disclaimer: I wrote most of it, and I'm not a programmer :-) ) - the Mifflin tool is currently available for licensing. Non-profit insitutions can get a research agreement that allows them unlimited use; commercial institutions can get a free trial. Please email me with your name, title, institution, mailing address, and phone/fax info if you are interested and we'll send you an agreement to sign. Disclaimers: the software and documentation are in an as-is state, as there hasn't been active development in the last year or so; also, we don't have a staff to process these requests, so it can take a fair amount of time to push the paperwork through. - re open source, it's certainly something we're looking into, and Verizon has received a request from an august international body to make Mifflin open source :-) - I share Eugene's ultimate goal, but I'd expand it a little. To dialog mapping and unstructured discussion, Compendium adds a rich set of other structured approaches, such as analysis and modeling frameworks and other task-focused/specific tools. I'll shortly be posting a case study with lots of screen shots to the Compendium Institute website that should give a good example of one set of these techniques. More can be found in the various research paper. Al > Just took a look at Eugene Eric Kim's web IBIS interface (an example at > http://www.eekim.com/ohs/lc/dialogmaps/ohs-lc.html#nid4001 ). Just a quick note as explanation: I generate these dialog maps using QuestMap, and export them using a tool I wrote called perlIBIS: http://www.eekim.com/software/perlIBIS/ When I get around to it, I'll modify perlIBIS to support Compendium's draft DTD as per Simon's comments, although if someone wants to beat me to it and make the modifications themselves, feel free. :-) > The Mifflin tool currently creates graphical IBIS HTML maps as an export > function. It adds some metadata and transclusions ('containing views'), as > well as icons, to what the above example shows, as well as some other > features. It could easily be adapted to contain 'purple numbers' as well. I'd love to get my hands on Mifflin and use it instead of QuestMap. Any progress on making this open source? Is there any way I could get a license for it in the interim? > I bring this up here because we are very interested in gluing such exports > into existing 'live' web-based systems that would allow IBIS discussions > originally generated in a f2f session, as most Mifflin/Compendium maps are, > to continue in an on-line format (and vice versa -- gluing web-based > discussions into the Mifflin f2f format). > > Is this system a possibility? Any others come to mind? This is my ultimate goal: an integrated dialog map/unstructured discussion system. The evolutionary path is to develop a Web-based dialog mapping app as well as a link database to link the unstructured and structured dialog together. This would be greatly facilitated if Mifflin were open source. -Eugene From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 05:53:53 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4B51256F75; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 05:53:52 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.171]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54A1556F72 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 05:53:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-73.californium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.68.201] helo=vaio) by cmailg1.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 1640gg-0003bO-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:06:47 +0000 Message-ID: <003201c16d15$97c9a540$c944883e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <005e01c16b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> <1005592854.2126.2.camel@canoe> <003301c16bbc$f8b4b2a0$c7ff193e@vaio> <1005600062.2127.6.camel@canoe> <003701c16c52$b158f600$2514883e@vaio> Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Node Object model; WAS: GUI Ideas and NODAL Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:06:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org To continue this strand... Taking this model Node <= {[Node Node] && [Node Node], ...} Acually, each value node (2nd node in each pair) can be very effectively represented as a child of the key node. So the top level node can just be a vector of key nodes, and the child of a key node is a value node. (Hence my plastering the term vector over previous mails. ;-) That basic structure can handle map, struct, and sequence all with the same interface. Which means I can have a basic node that looks something like, (N.B. the following is pseudo-code of sorts.) class Node { private: Enumeration e; //ignoring any other frills for now public: //yadayada... } Then to handle the node type I just implement a modification of the Type interface Jack just passed me //in Java public interface Type extends Nameable { boolean accepts(boolean b); boolean accepts(byte b); boolean accepts(char c); boolean accepts(double d); boolean accepts(int i); boolean accepts(Node v); //changed from Object to Node boolean accepts(Date d); //added //..and so on for all atomic types // boolean accepts(String s); //needed if string is sequence of char? Object as(boolean b); Object as(byte b); Object as(char c); Object as(double d); Object as(int i); // Object as(Object v); //break this down into atomic types // Object as(String s); //still needed? } Then the atomic types are just restrictions (subclasses) of Node to hold a specific type and to limit the number of entries in the vector. e.g. class CharNode extends Node { private boolean full; public setNode(Object ch) { //setting stuff full = true; } //...etc } Does that make any sense? Or am I way behind folks (Lee?) ? Cheers, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Jones" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL > Lee Iverson wrote: > > Convince me then. I've used systems (LISP for example) with very > > simple, general building blocks and seen them evolve toward richer, > > more targeted ones. It's a balancing act... > > Yes. I think I am looking at it from an access perspective, which is > possibly not the view you are taking. > So, I might well be missing something crucial. > > From an accessing perspective: > > Take Perl for instance. > A hash (map/dictionary in other languages) in perl is accessed by > $value = $hashname{$keystr}; #in perl > > No difference between that and a struct in perl really. In fact, perl > basically deals with objects as hashes. > So map and struct are definitely very similar, if you ignore the fearsome > datatyping of certain other languages. > Now, in NODAL, datatypes are a property set on the Node, but otherwise > everything is treated as a Node object. Is that correct? > > So in a strongly typed language like C++ I might declare a map as > map; //in C++ > And if we escape from the specifics of the C++ language, me might well be > talking > Node <= {[Node Node] && [Node Node], ...} > > And to approach the sequence... > float f = arrayname[index]; // in C/C++ > The difference between an array and the hash above is in the index for > addressing. It's restricted to an integer value. Again in NODAL do we have > to worry about datatyping in that structure? > Node <= {[Node Node] && [Node Node], ...} > So the only difference between a map and a sequence in terms of accessing > the contents is the restriction on the key type. > (And it wouldn't surprise me if that was what perl was doing under the hood > in reality when you use arrays.) > > Now, isn't it the case that in order to perform operations on Nodes, you > have to check their datatype property after accessing them? > > So then, I think I'm really asking, if NODAL is above the particulars of > datatyping in a specific programming language (is it?), then does it make > sense to specify a uniform approach to the data storage that is independent > of the particulars of structs, maps, and sequences? > > Cheers, > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lee Iverson" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] GUI Ideas and NODAL > > > > On Mon, 2001-11-12 at 12:58, Peter Jones wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, there are really a number of reasons to separate these out. The > > > > most obvious one in my mind is simply that manipulating these three > > > > kinds of collections (from an object-oriented point of view) is very > > > > different. The operations performed on a Struct, Sequence and Map are > > > > just completely separate. A Struct has a fixed set of fields and one > > > > may only assign new values to them. A Sequence has a set of items of > > > > uniform type and we can insert or delete subsequences or set > individual > > > > items. A Map indexes its values via keys of a defined type and we can > > > > either assign values to keys or remove keys. It is certainly true > that > > > > we could emulate these behaviours with simpler constructs, but then we > > > > would lose a great deal of the expressive power of our data modelling > > > > language. > > > > > > [ppj] Or you might gain a powerful generalisation, depending on what you > > > actually end up doing with the data. > > > I see your point, but I'm just wondering whether it's possible to step > > > beyond it by fixing aspects of the general (super)graph instead. Perhaps > it > > > becomes too complicated. > > > > Convince me then. I've used systems (LISP for example) with very > > simple, general building blocks and seen them evolve toward richer, > > more targeted ones. It's a balancing act... > > > > > > Well, you are ignoring the fact that various systems define line > endings > > > > very differently (e.g. line ending semantics on MS vs. Unix vs. Mac > > > > systems). The text encoding for exactly the same file is different on > > > > these systems but the data model is identical. (Properly then, the > > > > "line" strings in such a file should exclude these line-ending > > > > characters ("\r\n" in C parlance). That is not to say that you can't > > > > define a file type that is simply an undistinguished sequence of > > > > characters for your own purposes. It's not what I have in mind > though. > > > > > > [ppj] OK. Neat. I like the approach you're going for. But if that's the > > > case, why have you kept 'characters' as a primitive, and not just made > the > > > string type the primitive, leaving char[]'s up to the implementation > > > concerned? > > > > I also want a general addressing mechanism and using the Node types as > > the primitives for this allows one to address *inside* of strings just > > as one would address inside of any other collection. The atomic types > > are just that -- indivisible. We gain from having strings as a > > Sequence, and don't really lose anything. > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Lee Iverson > > leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T > > 1R9 > > http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 > > > > > > From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 09:00:23 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6C2F256F75; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:00:22 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B96C56F72 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st129.cwo.com [208.186.39.139]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAEHD1v8015938 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:13:16 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011114090847.033d8e20@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:08:55 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Fwd: [PORT-L] Project on Collaboratory Research Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org >Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 08:17:22 -0800 >Reply-To: INTERNATIONAL DISCUSSION GROUP >Sender: INTERNATIONAL DISCUSSION GROUP >From: Mary Keeler >Subject: [PORT-L] Project on Collaboratory Research >Comments: To: port-l@iupui.edu >To: PORT-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU > >Bob Rosenberg sent me this URL for work going on at the University of >Michigan, which was begun under the leadship of William Wulf, originator >of the term "collaboratory." Some good, short account of the concept and >history of work to realize it, here. --MK > >````````````````````````````````````````` >http://www.scienceofcollaboratories.org/ >An Alliance to Advance the Understanding of Collaboratories > >The project is being driven by researchers at the University of Michigan, >and Howard University, and is sponsored by the National Science >Foundation. > >Throughout history scientists and engineers have taken advantage of >state-of-the-art communication technologies to facilitate long-distance >collaborations. In the past few decades the need for collaboration has >increased markedly as problems have required large multidisciplinary >teams, complex instrumentation, or vast amounts of data from multiple >sources. Fortunately, this same time period has seen a dramatic increase >in the power and variety of communication and computational technologies >available for long-distance collaboration. In 1989 William Wulf coined the >term RcollaboratoryS to refer to the use of such technologies to support >geographically dispersed collaborative research. For more than a decade a >number of collaboratory projects have been carried out in a variety of >scientific and engineering fields. Most collaboratories have been built as >one-off, hand-crafted projects. We seek to change this. The Science of >Collaboratories project is devoted to understanding the technical and >behavioral principles that can lead to better, more successful design of >collaboratories in the future. > >Learn about the Mission of SOC [Science of Collaboratories] > > Our Mission > > Science has always been a form of what we now call "distributed >knowledge work." Scientists were among the first to recognize the >potential of emerging information and communication technologies. For >instance, electronic mail first became widespread within scientific >subcommunities. As additional networked tools became available a more >coherent vision has emerged of how technology-mediated science can be >conducted. By the late 1980s the concept of a collaboratory was being >discussed at places like the National Science Foundation and the National >Research Council. Collaboratories were defined as a RIUcenter without >walls,U in which the nationals researchers can perform their research >without regard to geographical location [Wulf, 1989].S The vision was that >scientists who are geographically dispersed could work together using >appropriate technology to access each other, remote tools, databases, and >instruments (National Research Council, 1993; Kouzes, Myers & Wulf, 1996; >Finholt & Olson, 1997). > >Over the past decade there have been a series of collaboratory projects >funded by NSF, DOE, NIH, and other agencies, some successful and some less >so. These projects provide us with a base of experience from which we have >begun to form generalizations about the conditions for success. These >projects have demonstrated the promise of the vision. Indeed, it is >feasible and useful to use networks to link teams of people, data, tools, >and facilities to reduce the barriers of time and distance. > >However, the design, deployment, and adoption of new collaboratories >remain difficult and uncertain processes. Each collaboratory has been >built as an independent effort. Since these efforts involved complex >responses to often idiosyncratic mixtures of social and technical factors, >general lessons about collaboratory design remain elusive. The large >effort required to produce the first prototype collaboratories has not >allowed careful reflection about broader principles of collaboratory >development. These principles are needed to expand collaboratory use >beyond narrow application in a few scientific fields. > >We seek to change this. We aim to define, abstract, and codify the broad >underlying technical and social elements that lead to successful >collaboratories. We seek to synthesize the vocabulary, associated >principles, design methods, and technical infrastructure for propagating >and sustaining collaboratories across a wide range of circumstances. Our >goal is for users with a need for collaboratory infrastructure to be able >to create successful collaboratories on their own. An even more ambitious >goal would be to have collaboration capabilities become integrated into >the common infrastructure that any scientist could access simply by being >a practicing member of a relevant community. > >Learn about the Activities of this project > >Science of Collaboratories Home > > In our endeavor to define, abstract, and codify the broad >underlying technical and social elements that lead to successful >collaboratories, we will pursue a series of activities associated with >several specific objectives: > >1. The qualitative and quantitative study of collaboratory design and >usage, examining Jboth technical and social aspectsof performance. We will >convene a series of workshops with a broad spectrum of collaboratory >developers/evaluators, and systematically explore their experiences to >develop generalizations. We will also conduct comprehensive studies of a >select few collaboratories which are underway or concluded in order to >establish a detailed picture of collaboratory workings. > >2. Creation and maintenance of a Collaboratory Knowledge Base. >Drawing on the work in (1), we will create a Web-accessible archive of >primary source material, summaries and abstracts, and relevant >generalizations and principles, a database of collaboratory resources, and >other related material. > >3. The abstraction and codification of principles, heuristics, and >frameworks to guide the rapid creation and deployment of successful >collaboratories. We seek to understand the complex interplay of technical >and social factors that can lead to principles of design or customization. >Codification of these principles will reduce the dependence of scientific >collaborators on specialized collaboratory developers for building and >deploying such tools. We also seek deeper understanding of the >sociotechnical processes involved with collaboratory construction and use, >both as an element of improving collaboratories and as a basic research >goal. > >4. The formulation of a components approach to collaboratory >technology and guidelines for their use. Many collaborative technologies >already exists, but not in a form that allows for easy configuration and >customization by end users. We will develop technical specifications for >such components, and work with commercial partners or open source >developers to see that such components emerge. Our goal here is to lower >the technical as well as the social barriers to participation in >collaboratories. > >5. The assessment of emerging collaboratory testbeds. To test our >principles and methods, we will use new testbed projects to expand our >knowledge of new technical capabilities and the social processes behind >successful collaboration. > >http://intel.si.umich.edu/crew/ >Collaboratory for Research on Electronic Work >School of Information, University of Michigan From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 09:04:49 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D100C56F78; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:04:48 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375A256F75 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:04:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [137.108.25.224] (actually host dhcp-kmi-479.open.ac.uk) by venus.open.ac.uk via SMTP Local (Mailer 3.1) with ESMTP; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:17:35 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: sjb72@tesla.open.ac.uk Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <003201c16d15$97c9a540$c944883e@vaio> References: <005e01c1 6b82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> <1005592854.2126.2.camel@canoe> <003301c16bbc$f8b4b2a0$c7ff193e@vaio> <1005600062.2127.6.camel@canoe> <003701c16c52$b158f600$2514883e@vaio> <003201c16d15$97c9a540$c944883e@vaio> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:17:38 +0000 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Simon Buckingham Shum Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] NSF/JISC Joint US/UK Program: DIGITAL LIBRARIES AND THE CLASSROOM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Bootstrappers might want to think about this as a vehicle for funded collaboration... Simon ----------------------------------------- National Science Foundation and Joint Information Systems Committee Call for Proposals Pre-announcement 14 November 2001 DIGITAL LIBRARIES AND THE CLASSROOM: TESTBEDS FOR TRANSFORMING TEACHING AND LEARNING A new =A3 6,000,000 / $8,500,000 joint programme The United States National Science Foundation (NSF) and the United Kingdom Joint Information Systems Committee (JISC) wish to establish a joint programme of activities in US and UK universities. Four exemplar projects of up to =A31.5million / US$ 2.1million each over three years will be funded to demonstrate how the education process for undergraduate students can be transformed using innovative applications of emerging information technologies and Internet resources. The objective of this joint NSF/JISC programme is to bring about a significant improvement in the learning and teaching process by fusing state of the art digital and internet-based services, rapidly expanding global digital content of all forms and emerging applications in undergraduate education. We particularly wish to examine how integrating recent technical developments with digital content will improve the learning experience of students and provide new models for the classroom across a number of disciplines. In creating the new courses, projects will be expected to examine many aspects of the whole learning process including: * The innovative use of distributed, multi-media, multi-source electronic content and advanced network technologies and capabilities in education * How the student experience can be enriched through the use of appropriate applications and access to electronic resources * A better understanding of students' requirements for effective use of Information and Communications Technology(ICT), Virtual Learning Environments (VLE) and electronic information resources * How teachers can be assisted in incorporating ICT, VLE and electronic information resources in their courses in appropriate ways, to provide balanced courses for students * The institutional information infrastructure required to deliver the new courses, including the provision of suitable networks, resources, applications, and the development of strategies to manage all of these effectively * The organisational changes that will be required to deliver the courses and support the staff and students involved, and how these can best be managed by the institutions * The staff development needs of the teaching staff, the information service support teams and administrators and consideration of the reward mechanisms for staff engaged in innovative activities. * Economic models for the development, delivery and long term support and development of ICT-based learning. The NSF and the JISC successfully collaborated in funding digital library projects in 1999 * 2001. Information on these projects and other NSF Digital Libraries Initiative projects can be found at http://www.dli2.nsf.gov . We now wish to build on this work by funding four exemplar projects, where each project is a collaboration of at least one institution of higher education in the USA and one in the UK. Projects will be expected to provide a five-year plan of activities, although funding will only be provided for the first three. This will ensure that the projects are embedded into the institutions and demonstrate that the innovations are sustainable. Significant financial and intellectual 'buy-in' by the institutions and faculties chosen will therefore be vital to achieving success; the objectives cannot be met without considerable change and investment in new learning and teaching processes, support services and physical infrastructure. Institutions should consider opportunities to build on existing or planned strategic developments in their own organisations that would benefit from a broader, international approach. The benefits will include access to a wider base of technical expertise, or different organisational structures, management approaches and teaching methodologies. Creation of a larger, shared corpus of electronic content for student use from existing, dispersed digital resources is particularly welcome. A call for proposals is expected to be published in early December, with a closing date in February 2002. Projects will be expected to start in summer 2002. This pre-announcement alerts the community to the imminent call and provides an early opportunity to explore possible partnerships with suitable organisations in the US and UK, in advance of the call being issued. Norman Wiseman, JISC Steve Griffin, NSF Initial enquiries to the JISC should be made to Norman Wiseman on : 0115 9514799 or by email to: nw@nerc.ac.uk ************************************************************************ From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 11:23:59 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5F48856F75; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:23:58 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net (defout.telus.net [199.185.220.240]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE0556F72 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:23:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net ([64.180.168.30]) by priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net (InterMail vM.4.01.03.10 201-229-121-110) with ESMTP id <20011114193656.CCDU1117.priv-edtnes15-hme0.telusplanet.net@bohx6cqy38ij.bc.hsia.telus.net> for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:36:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Node Object model; WAS: GUI Ideas and NODAL From: Lee Iverson To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org In-Reply-To: <003201c16d15$97c9a540$c944883e@vaio> References: <005e01c16b 82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> <1005592854.2126.2.camel@canoe> <003301c16bbc$f8b4b2a0$c7ff193e@vaio> <1005600062.2127.6.camel@canoe> <003701c16c52$b158f600$2514883e@vaio> <003201c16d15$97c9a540$c944883e@vaio> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Evolution/0.99.1+cvs.2001.11.13.19.43 (Preview Release) Date: 14 Nov 2001 11:36:55 -0800 Message-Id: <1005766616.2287.0.camel@canoe> Mime-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org On Wed, 2001-11-14 at 06:06, Peter Jones wrote: > To continue this strand... > Taking this model > Node <= {[Node Node] && [Node Node], ...} > Acually, each value node (2nd node in each pair) can be very effectively > represented as a child of the key node. So the top level node can just be a > vector of key nodes, and the child of a key node is a value node. (Hence my > plastering the term vector over previous mails. ;-) > That basic structure can handle map, struct, and sequence all with the same > interface. > Which means I can have a basic node that looks something like, > > (N.B. the following is pseudo-code of sorts.) > > class Node > { > private: > Enumeration e; > //ignoring any other frills for now > > public: > //yadayada... > } This is all fine. In fact exactly the idea (with some twists) behind the basics of the Nodal data model. > Then to handle the node type I just implement a modification of the Type > interface Jack just passed me > //in Java > public interface Type extends Nameable { > boolean accepts(boolean b); > boolean accepts(byte b); > boolean accepts(char c); > boolean accepts(double d); > boolean accepts(int i); > boolean accepts(Node v); //changed from Object to Node > boolean accepts(Date d); //added > //..and so on for all atomic types > // boolean accepts(String s); //needed if string is sequence of char? > Object as(boolean b); > Object as(byte b); > Object as(char c); > Object as(double d); > Object as(int i); > // Object as(Object v); //break this down into atomic types > // Object as(String s); //still needed? > } This is straight out of the Nodal stuff. > Then the atomic types are just restrictions (subclasses) of Node to hold a > specific type and to limit the number of entries in the vector. > e.g. > > class CharNode extends Node > { > > private boolean full; > > public setNode(Object ch) > { > //setting stuff > full = true; > } > > //...etc > } > > Does that make any sense? Or am I way behind folks (Lee?) ? Two problems. In the Nodal data model, Nodes and Atomic types are distinct. The key here is that a Node is a metadata holder, navigational unit, *and* content holder. An atomic type is simply a content element (and we want to encourage atomic types to be handled efficiently as value types). [The next bit may start into obscurity... Stop me if I'm going too fast...] So, in the Nodal data model a Node has the ability to enumerate its "children" but an Atomic type does not. There are a couple of twists on this however. The Cursor is used as a proxy object for Nodes that encapsulates an access context, including User and Path references. In fact, my thinking has evolved to a point where I think that the user interfaces should completely hide the "Node" interface behind Cursors. Navigating through the graph will involve enumerations of "children" that return Cursors with the same User and augmented Paths. Thus, even though no Node has a parent (and is thus indiscriminately reusable), actual navigation through the document graph is done via these Node proxy objects that hold a Node reference augmented by the navigational context. The Cursor is this context object and it combines navigation and content access and editing interfaces in a package within which access control decisions can be made. Whew! More? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lee Iverson leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T 1R9 http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 11:39:29 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 381ED56F75; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:39:29 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD3A056F72 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st211.cwo.com [208.186.39.221]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAEJptv8029907 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:52:14 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011114114624.00e00d10@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:47:30 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Node Object model; WAS: GUI Ideas and NODAL In-Reply-To: <1005766616.2287.0.camel@canoe> References: <003201c16d15$97c9a540$c944883e@vaio> <005e01c16b 82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> <1005592854.2126.2.camel@canoe> <003301c16bbc$f8b4b2a0$c7ff193e@vaio> <1005600062.2127.6.camel@canoe> <003701c16c52$b158f600$2514883e@vaio> <003201c16d15$97c9a540$c944883e@vaio> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org At 11:36 AM 11/14/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Whew! More? Yes. Please! In fact, I put your interfaces into Java, based on the JavaDoc stuff. How bout some code? :o) Jack From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 11:47:29 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 817EC56F75; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:47:28 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4946856F72 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:47:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st211.cwo.com [208.186.39.221]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAEK06v8032319 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:00:19 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011114115004.03392570@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:55:31 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] D-LIB open source software Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org This article in D-Lib ezine: http://www.dlib.org/dlib/october01/witten/10witten.html talks about an entire New Zealand digital library initiative, complete with a bunch of GPL'd software. "The Greenstone digital library software is an open-source system for the construction and presentation of information collections. It builds collections with effective full-text searching and metadata-based browsing facilities that are attractive and easy to use. Moreover, they are easily maintained and can be augmented and rebuilt entirely automatically. The system is extensible: software "plugins" accommodate different document and metadata types. Greenstone incorporates an interface that makes it easy for people to create their own library collections. Collections may be built and served locally from the user's own web server, or (given appropriate permissions) remotely on a shared digital library host. End users can easily build new collections styled after existing ones from material on the Web or from their local files (or both), and collections can be updated and new ones brought on-line at any time. " Visit http://www.nzdl.org/cgi-bin/library for more information. Of great interest to the OHS/DKR thread is that Greenstone is written on top of MG, which stands for a program based on the book _Managing Gigabytes_. MG doesn't appear to be a Grove engine, but it sure looks to do something similar. You can write plugins in Perl for it to extend its document type capabilities, as mentioned in the abstract above. From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 12:21:22 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 305C456F75; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:21:22 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rcsntx.swbell.net (mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.29]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA3AD56F72 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from adsl-63-201-89-97.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net ([63.201.89.97]) by mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GMT004S0552D7@mta5.rcsntx.swbell.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:34:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 11:29:05 -0800 (PST) From: Eugene Eric Kim Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Re: [unrev-II] Web-based IBIS In-reply-to: X-X-Sender: To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org On Wed, 14 Nov 2001 albert.m.selvin@verizon.com wrote: > - as a complement to perlIBIS, we have a VBA tool that creates MS-Word and > HTML output from QuestMap exports; it can (and has) also been adapted to > produce a wide range of custom output in all sorts of document, diagram, > and other format (disclaimer: I wrote most of it, and I'm not a programmer > :-) ) This is great; I have to admit that the UI for perlIBIS is not too friendly. Is there a URL for your VBA tool? > - the Mifflin tool is currently available for licensing. Non-profit > insitutions can get a research agreement that allows them unlimited use; > commercial institutions can get a free trial. Please email me with your > name, title, institution, mailing address, and phone/fax info if you are > interested and we'll send you an agreement to sign. Disclaimers: the > software and documentation are in an as-is state, as there hasn't been > active development in the last year or so; also, we don't have a staff to > process these requests, so it can take a fair amount of time to push the > paperwork through. This is fantastic. Question for Albert: If BA (which is 501(c)3) signed a research agreement, could it apply to the people on this list? Question for everyone else: Is anyone else interested in getting their hands on Mifflin? If the answers to the above questions are yes and yes, I can look into BA signing a research agreement. Let me know what you all think. -Eugene -- +=== Eugene Eric Kim ===== eekim@eekim.com ===== http://www.eekim.com/ ===+ | "Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they | +===== can have an excuse to drink alcohol." --Steve Martin ===========+ From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 12:28:13 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4648F56F77; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:28:12 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D4A56F75 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st211.cwo.com [208.186.39.221]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAEKepv8010278 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:41:02 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011114123436.033928b0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:36:20 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Re: [unrev-II] Web-based IBIS In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org At 11:29 AM 11/14/2001 -0800, Eugene wrote: >This is fantastic. Question for Albert: If BA (which is 501(c)3) signed a >research agreement, could it apply to the people on this list? Question >for everyone else: Is anyone else interested in getting their hands on >Mifflin? > >If the answers to the above questions are yes and yes, I can look into BA >signing a research agreement. Let me know what you all think. I would love to play with Mifflin, but not until it is released under an open source license. As you may recall, Simon Buckingham Shum wrote to the Unrev list recently, asking for show of interest in seeing Mifflin be released. I support that initiative very strongly. Jack From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 13:29:48 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D2CF056F75; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:29:47 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from patan.sun.com (patan.Sun.COM [192.18.98.43]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3720E56F72 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:29:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.52]) by patan.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18822 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:42:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id fAELgdf23271 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:42:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3BF2E555.441DCF7F@sun.com> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:42:45 -0800 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Re: [unrev-II] Web-based IBIS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Eugene Eric Kim wrote: > Is anyone else interested in getting their hands on Mifflin? Yes. I've not been near involved in this effort as a developer. I find that when I go home from a day of coding, I'd rather play with wood than the computer. I'll be back to writing again in the near future, though. I find I have more energy for programming when I'm doing that. In the meantime, I can at least make suggestions as a user... From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 14 16:12:36 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6C85356F77; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:12:35 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.172]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81B2A56F72 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:12:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-611.kook.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.25.170.99] helo=vaio) by cmailg2.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 164ALN-0007nd-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2001 00:25:25 +0000 Message-ID: <005401c16d6c$03ac3ec0$63aa193e@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <005e01c16b 82$0fb7aa60$6f4f883e@vaio> <1005592854.2126.2.camel@canoe><003301c16bbc$f8b4b2a0$c7ff193e@vaio> <1005600062.2127.6.camel@canoe><003701c16c52$b158f600$2514883e@vaio> <003201c16d15$97c9a540$c944883e@vaio> <1005766616.2287.0.camel@canoe> Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Node Object model; WAS: GUI Ideas and NODAL Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 22:38:29 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Lee Iverson wrote: > So, in the Nodal data model a Node has the ability to enumerate its > "children" but an Atomic type does not. There are a couple of twists > on this however. The Cursor is used as a proxy object for Nodes that > encapsulates an access context, including User and Path references. > In fact, my thinking has evolved to a point where I think that the user > interfaces should completely hide the "Node" interface behind Cursors. > Navigating through the graph will involve enumerations of "children" > that return Cursors with the same User and augmented Paths. Thus, even > though no Node has a parent (and is thus indiscriminately reusable), > actual navigation through the document graph is done via these Node > proxy objects that hold a Node reference augmented by the navigational > context. The Cursor is this context object and it combines navigation > and content access and editing interfaces in a package within which > access control decisions can be made. Whew! More? I had to read it about 10 times, but I think I'm getting there. Skipping Paths a moment... So basically what happens is that the Node class I sketched above has some permissions set on it - various, reflecting the total user group directory preferences for that node. Then the Cursor object walks the Node graph and only 'picks up' a node to create a new Cursor if the permissions match. Bringing Paths back in... Users with the same permission set may nonetheless create subsequent node graphs from the available node set that are not isomorphic. This was where I would bring in my Node-Views from the GUI ideas. So the issue of unique user plus group permissions plays with Paths in a big way. Semi-rhetorical question: If the idea was collaboration over a document then how is that dealt with? The group can see who did what over time. And if I wanted to create a unique view for some reason then I could create a copy of the collaboration document with the permissions raised to 'mine only'. Am I still on the right track? Cheers, Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lee Iverson" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 7:36 PM Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Node Object model; WAS: GUI Ideas and NODAL > On Wed, 2001-11-14 at 06:06, Peter Jones wrote: > > To continue this strand... > > Taking this model > > Node <= {[Node Node] && [Node Node], ...} > > Acually, each value node (2nd node in each pair) can be very effectively > > represented as a child of the key node. So the top level node can just be a > > vector of key nodes, and the child of a key node is a value node. (Hence my > > plastering the term vector over previous mails. ;-) > > That basic structure can handle map, struct, and sequence all with the same > > interface. > > Which means I can have a basic node that looks something like, > > > > (N.B. the following is pseudo-code of sorts.) > > > > class Node > > { > > private: > > Enumeration e; > > //ignoring any other frills for now > > > > public: > > //yadayada... > > } > > This is all fine. In fact exactly the idea (with some twists) behind > the basics of the Nodal data model. > > > Then to handle the node type I just implement a modification of the Type > > interface Jack just passed me > > //in Java > > public interface Type extends Nameable { > > boolean accepts(boolean b); > > boolean accepts(byte b); > > boolean accepts(char c); > > boolean accepts(double d); > > boolean accepts(int i); > > boolean accepts(Node v); //changed from Object to Node > > boolean accepts(Date d); //added > > //..and so on for all atomic types > > // boolean accepts(String s); //needed if string is sequence of char? > > Object as(boolean b); > > Object as(byte b); > > Object as(char c); > > Object as(double d); > > Object as(int i); > > // Object as(Object v); //break this down into atomic types > > // Object as(String s); //still needed? > > } > > This is straight out of the Nodal stuff. > > > Then the atomic types are just restrictions (subclasses) of Node to hold a > > specific type and to limit the number of entries in the vector. > > e.g. > > > > class CharNode extends Node > > { > > > > private boolean full; > > > > public setNode(Object ch) > > { > > //setting stuff > > full = true; > > } > > > > //...etc > > } > > > > Does that make any sense? Or am I way behind folks (Lee?) ? > > Two problems. In the Nodal data model, Nodes and Atomic types are > distinct. The key here is that a Node is a metadata holder, > navigational unit, *and* content holder. An atomic type is simply > a content element (and we want to encourage atomic types to be handled > efficiently as value types). > > [The next bit may start into obscurity... Stop me if I'm going too > fast...] > > So, in the Nodal data model a Node has the ability to enumerate its > "children" but an Atomic type does not. There are a couple of twists > on this however. The Cursor is used as a proxy object for Nodes that > encapsulates an access context, including User and Path references. > In fact, my thinking has evolved to a point where I think that the user > interfaces should completely hide the "Node" interface behind Cursors. > Navigating through the graph will involve enumerations of "children" > that return Cursors with the same User and augmented Paths. Thus, even > though no Node has a parent (and is thus indiscriminately reusable), > actual navigation through the document graph is done via these Node > proxy objects that hold a Node reference augmented by the navigational > context. The Cursor is this context object and it combines navigation > and content access and editing interfaces in a package within which > access control decisions can be made. Whew! More? > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- > Lee Iverson > leei@telus.net #105-2700 Acadia Rd., Vancouver B.C. V6T > 1R9 > http://www.ai.sri.com/~leei/ (604) 222-9312 > > From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Nov 16 09:38:04 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C0F0D56F75; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:38:03 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53ED656F72 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:38:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st150.cwo.com [208.186.39.160]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAGHp2e4021132 for ; Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:51:03 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011116094429.00dfe2a0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:49:00 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Advanced File Systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org The latest installation of this series can be found at: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-fs7/ "The purpose of this series is to give you a solid, practical introduction to Linux's various new filesystems, including ReiserFS, XFS, JFS, GFS, ext3 and others. I want to equip you with the necessary practical knowledge you need to actually start using these filesystems. My goal is to help you avoid as many potential pitfalls as possible; this means that we're going to take a careful look at filesystem stability, performance issues (both good and bad), any negative application interactions that you should be aware of, the best kernel/patch combinations, and more. Consider this series an "insider's guide" to these next-generation filesystems. " This discussion is appropriate to thinking in terms of projects like Groves, NODAL, and so forth. From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Nov 17 08:27:11 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E315A56F77; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:27:10 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from irvmail2.bdi.gte.com (irvmail2.bdi.gte.com [192.76.80.130]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A3156F75 for ; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 08:27:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpirv.interwan.gte.com ([138.83.34.67]) by irvmail2.bdi.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11894; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:40:10 -0500 (EST) From: albert.m.selvin@verizon.com Received: from smtpirv.interwan.gte.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtpirv.interwan.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11894; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:40:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from dwsmtp01.bell-atl.com (dwmail21.interwan.gte.com [138.83.36.17]) by smtpirv.interwan.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11888; Sat, 17 Nov 2001 10:40:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] New Compendium case study document online To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: msierhuis@mail.arc.nasa.gov, palusc@leaders.ccl.org, horthd@leaders.ccl.org, pulleym@leaders.ccl.org, Paul.Kirschner@ou.nl, Jan.vanBruggen@ou.nl, chad.s.carr@us.andersen.com, James.Euchner@pb.com Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:40:01 -0500 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on DWSMTP01/HSVR/Verizon(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/17/2001 10:40:08 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org "Description of A Compendium-Supported Workshop." Lots of Mifflin screen shots and discussion of the various techniques used. It's on the case studies page on the Compendium Institute website -- http://www.compendiuminstitute.org/library/casestudies.htm. The direct URL is http://www.compendiuminstitute.org/compendium/papers/DescriptionOfACompendiumSupportedWorkshop.doc. Comments/discussion welcome (in fact, perhaps Simon or some other D3E wiz can D3E-ize the paper). Cheers, Al From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Nov 18 10:24:06 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id F18AF56F78; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:24:05 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3785E56F77 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:24:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 ([209.63.33.97]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAIIb1YC008175 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:37:06 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011118102743.00e03e20@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:30:53 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] gZigZag update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org http://gzigzag.sourceforge.net/ gZigZag is the Java variant of Ted Nelson's ZigZag, an n-dimensional space complete with display, navigation, and editing capabilities. A recent update to gZigZag has some significance to those who think about the issues that Nodal, Groves and so forth deal with. Here's a quote: "2001-10-01: Xanadu links between different cells quoting the same PDF file! We now have, in the default ZZ space that the current CVS rewrite (to be released as 0.8.0 Real Soon Now(tm)) some Xanadu model spans included from a foreign PDF file, and a visualization which shows the other cells which quote the same file. (Screenshot) Note that the screenshot is VERY wide (1023 pixels) so you may have to scroll to see the other side. There are three reduced-size PDF pages on the image, and the two on the right-hand side are shown only because they quote the same mediaserver block containing the same pdf file. No explicit connection was created between the cells! This has a momentous significance: whenever you write another comment on the same PDF file, they are all interconnected and never lost in the depths of the system somewhere. "Copying" bits of sources is equivalent to building a hyperstructure. All the hard work is finally starting to pay off - we are using this system ourselves to start putting together a good picture of hypermedia literature for ourselves. " From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Nov 18 14:55:07 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B8D2056F79; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:55:06 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk (cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.195.175]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D878356F78 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:55:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-1058.bellsprout.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.135.41.34] helo=vaio) by cmailg5.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 165b2l-0002Tr-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:08:08 +0000 Message-ID: <002001c17085$e03956e0$222987d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] JavaGroups Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:08:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Found this in my travels. http://www.cs.cornell.edu/Info/Projects/JavaGroupsNew/ JavaGroups - A Reliable Multicast Communication Toolkit for Java NOTE: The latest version of JavaGroups is available at: http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/javagroups JavaGroups is a group communication toolkit written entirely in Java. It is based on IP multicast, but extends it with reliability and group membership. Reliability includes lossless transmission of a message to all recipients (with retransmission of missing messages) fragmentation of large messages into smaller ones and reassembly at the receiver's side ordering of messages, e.g. messages m1 and m2 sent by P will be received by all receivers in the same order, and not as m2, m1 (FIFO order) atomicity: a message will be received by all receivers, or none. Group Membership includes Knowledge of who the members of a group are and Notification when a new member joins, an existing member leaves, or an existing member has crashed Cheers, Peter From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Nov 18 16:38:12 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EE95256F7A; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:38:11 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A826956F79 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:38:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st122.cwo.com [208.186.39.132]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAJ0pCSZ021951 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:51:13 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011118162908.00e03ad0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:49:23 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Greenstone information management Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.nzdl.org/cgi-bin/library I posted this URL earlier. Now, I've downloaded the Greenstone software (for my Wintel box). Had to download and install ActivePerl before Greenstone would work properly. What is Greenstone? GPL. (may not be all that bad because it has a corba interface so we can call it from non-gpl software). It's an engine that indexes collections of information. It can handle: html word postscript pdf email other I first downloaded the base system MG (managing gigabytes) and found that I couldn't compile it with cygwin. So, I just installed the entire Greenstone package, which included everything except a perl engine. Greenstone is a web-based system. It will run with apache or whatever, but the download included a server. It found IE 5 and set that as its default browser. Everything is done from a browser. Installation was quite easy with the exe file that downloaded, though I must admit that Norton AntiVirus was very unhappy with it; I had to authorize the install, much to Norton's chagrin. What does Greenstone do? Greenstone imports/converts files from local/web/ftp to internal html format indexes html formatted documents saves internal files compressed You are able to create new collections edit/add to/delete existing collections manage users, configurations, etc browse collections You are also able to Add new file types by creating perl scripts Why is Greenstone interesting to an OHS/DKR crowd? In one sense, it's already a kind of HyperScope. It reads most all kinds of file types, and if it doesn't, you can fix it so it does. And, it is Web based. I run mine locally, but if I were on a network, the installer detects that and makes it Web-enabled. You have the option of declaring collections private or public. In another sense (actually, the same sense as above), it's a kind of Grove engine, because it has adaptors (plugs) that give it the ability (though, not perfectly -- comment below) to handle most all important file types. Imperfection exists because of the many different versions of Word file formats and so forth. Imperfection may also exist as evidenced in the following: my installation has sucked up one pdf file and my entire Eudora in.mbx. I know this because it says it was successful. But, I'm suspicious because I am unable to browse any information contained in those items. Could be me (classic newbe); I've just subscribed to the email list. Time will tell. In any case, given that there is supposed to be a corba interface (I haven't seen it yet), in theory, we can just allow Greenstone to suck up entire directories (it doesn't do this automatically, yet), and make them available to datamining tools in an OHS environment. Imagine having it suck up D3E documents and the like. I would like to see as many ohs-talkers as possible download and begin to experiment with Greenstone. There is certainly some more software to be developed for it in order to make it useable as a foundation in an OHS environment. Cheers Jack From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Nov 18 17:47:06 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 82BC456F7B; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 17:47:05 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3226656F7A for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 17:47:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st202.cwo.com [208.186.39.212]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAJ1xuSZ029086 for ; Sun, 18 Nov 2001 18:00:02 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011118170851.00e04330@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 17:49:54 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Greenstone information management In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20011118162908.00e03ad0@thinkalong.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Greenstone has a home http://www.greenstone.org/english/home.html Greenstone at sourceforge http://sourceforge.net/projects/greenstone/ (no cvs) The Greenstone developers document speaks of Greenstone Markup Language. From http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/XML4Lib/archive/0103/0025.html "In the next version odf the Greenstone digital library software, every document will be imported to Greenstone Markup Language (GML), which will be valid XML. (The existing GML format is not always valid XML.) Any document added to a collection - be it an HTML file, word document, PDF, BibTex or Refer bibliographic database - is converted internally to GML, and then used to build full text and fielded search indexes, browsing interfaces, and so on. We haven't (as far as I know) got a plugin for handling MARC records (depending on format - we could import them as text or HTML easily enough). I haven't tried converting other XML formats into GML, though maybe I'll try it with the medline records you mentioned (writing new Greenstone plugins is pretty easy)." The post is by Gordon W. Paynter (http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~paynter/) who has for download KEA (gpl) which is a key phrase extractor (Java) http://www.nzdl.org/Kea/ One wonders if Kea could be modified to work with GML files of Greenstone. At http://people.cs.uct.ac.za/~ahaefele/proposal/index.htm there is a proposal for applying Greenstone to pda technology. http://www.chi-sa.org.za/CHI-SA2001/proceedings/smallscreens.pdf is another such document. At http://adl2000.kaist.ac.kr/tutorials.htm, there may be (I haven't tried it yet) a tutorial on Greenstone by Ian Witten. http://www.cg.cs.tu-bs.de/V3D2/ECDL01/slides/GeneralizedDocs-ECDLworkshop.pd f is a document that discusses Greenstone and its markup language. The document "MARIAN Searching and Querying across Heterogeneous Federated Digital Libraries" is found at http://www.ercim.org/publication/ws-proceedings/DelNoe01/11_Fox.pdf From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 19 07:13:14 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id AF19C56F7C; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 07:13:13 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6089F56F7B for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 07:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st138.cwo.com [208.186.39.148]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAJFQESZ006619 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 07:26:15 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011119072054.02822790@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 07:24:19 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Eclipse -- open source IDE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.eclipse.org "We finally made it! Eclipse is now an open source project! Thanks to everyone in the Eclipse community who supported us and worked so hard to get us this far. If you are just now joining us, Eclipse is a kind of universal tool platform - an open extensible IDE for anything but nothing in particular. The real value comes from tool plug-ins that "teach" Eclipse how to work with things - java files, web content, graphics, video - almost anything you can imagine. Eclipse allows you to independently develop tools that integrate with other people's tools so seamlessly you won't know where one tool ends and another starts. The very notion of a tool as we know it... disappears completely... " It's Java, it's licensed by the Common Public License (CPL). It's also a huge download. Here is part of the CPL (notice how it handles patents): "a) Subject to the terms of this Agreement, each Contributor hereby grants Recipient a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free copyright license to reproduce, prepare derivative works of, publicly display, publicly perform, distribute and sublicense the Contribution of such Contributor, if any, and such derivative works, in source code and object code form. b) Subject to the terms of this Agreement, each Contributor hereby grants Recipient a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free patent license under Licensed Patents to make, use, sell, offer to sell, import and otherwise transfer the Contribution of such Contributor, if any, in source code and object code form. This patent license shall apply to the combination of the Contribution and the Program if, at the time the Contribution is added by the Contributor, such addition of the Contribution causes such combination to be covered by the Licensed Patents. The patent license shall not apply to any other combinations which include the Contribution. No hardware per se is licensed hereunder. c) Recipient understands that although each Contributor grants the licenses to its Contributions set forth herein, no assurances are provided by any Contributor that the Program does not infringe the patent or other intellectual property rights of any other entity. Each Contributor disclaims any liability to Recipient for claims brought by any other entity based on infringement of intellectual property rights or otherwise. As a condition to exercising the rights and licenses granted hereunder, each Recipient hereby assumes sole responsibility to secure any other intellectual property rights needed, if any. For example, if a third party patent license is required to allow Recipient to distribute the Program, it is Recipient's responsibility to acquire that license before distributing the Program. d) Each Contributor represents that to its knowledge it has sufficient copyright rights in its Contribution, if any, to grant the copyright license set forth in this Agreement." From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 19 08:02:53 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 466EA56F7D; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:02:53 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5AF556F7C for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:02:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st138.cwo.com [208.186.39.148]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAJGFrYC006200 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:15:54 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011119081308.00e02100@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:14:00 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Fwd: Re: [PORT-L] Semantic Web --> Pragmatic Web, nominalism --> realism? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Interesting reference to Doug Engelbart's point of view here... >From: Gary Richmond >Subject: Re: [PORT-L] Semantic Web --> Pragmatic Web, > nominalism --> realism? >To: PORT-L@LISTSERV.IUPUI.EDU > >The expression "Pragmatic Web" came out of a series of stimulating=20 >discussions that Aldo de Moor and I had at ICCS 2001. I don't recall who=20 >mouthed the phrase first, but I always credit Aldo with it in honor of=20 >his lively role in those far-reaching informal inquiries. We were=20 >both particularly concerned with "making Peirce pragmatic" (and this=20 >phrase is Aldo's for certain!) by which we meant creating means for=20 >actually realizing the principles and practices of pragmatic inquiry at=20 >PORT and on the Web generally. > >Bernard, I think your analysis is right on target and especially in the=20 >Engelbartian purpose you propose for the Web, namely, "social knowledge=20 >augmentation." I think that in this regard you are also quite right in=20 >stressing the importance of remembering that for Peirce information is the= =20 >product of intension and extension "as something that appears by way of=20 >concrete interpretation." This is the pragmatic and creative way of=20 >seeing the matter, rather than imagining that information and knowledge=20 >are simply always already "given" merely to be better disseminated by=20 >a "Semantic Web." (Your analysis of "semantic" in this context also bears= =20 >close study.) > >Mary, I found the reference regarding "pushing nominalism to its limits"=20 >leading to realism in the "preface" to The Simplest Mathematics. (Near the= =20 >end of that preface comes your favorite Peircean characterization of=20 >Existential Graphs as "a moving-picture of thought..") I've appended some= =20 >brief relevant passages from that as well as some Peirce supporting=20 >Bernard's analysis of the place of information in pragmatic thinking. > >from the "Preface" to The Simplest Mathematics. > >The burden of proof is undoubtedly upon the realists, because the=20 >nominalistic hypothesis is the simpler. Dr. Carus 3 professes himself a=20 >realist and yet accuses me of inconsistency in admitting Ockham's razor=20 >although I am a realist, thus, implying that he himself does not accept=20 >it. 4 But this brocard, Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,= =20 >that is, a hypothesis ought not to introduce complications not requisite=20 >to explain the facts, this is not distinctively nominalistic; it is the=20 >very roadbed of science. Science ought to try the simplest hypothesis=20 >first, with little regard to its probability or improbability, although=20 >regard ought to be paid to its consonance with other hypotheses, already=20 >accepted. This, like all the logical propositions I shall enunciate, is=20 >not a mere private impression of mine: it is a mathematically necessary=20 >deduction from unimpeachable generalizations of universally admitted facts= =20 >of observation. The generalizations are themselves allowed by all the=20 >world; but still they have been submitted to the minutest criticism before= =20 >being employed as premisses. It appears therefore that in scientific=20 >method the nominalists are entirely right. Everybody ought to be a=20 >nominalist at first, and to continue in that opinion until he is driven=20 >out of it by the force majeure of irreconcilable facts. Still he ought to= =20 >be all the time on the lookout for these facts, considering how many other= =20 >powerful minds have found themselves compelled to come over to realism.=20 >[emphasis added by me] >Peirce: CP 4.1 Cross-Ref: > . . .[A]s for the average nominalist whom you meet in the streets, he= =20 > reminds me of the blind spot on the retina, so wonderfully does he=20 > unconsciously smooth over his field of vision and omit facts that stare=20 > him in the face, while seeing all round them without perceiving any gap=20 > in his view of the world. That any man not demented should be a realist=20 > is something he cannot conceive. >Peirce: CP 4.1 Cross-Ref: > My plan for defeating nominalism is not simple nor direct; but it=20 > seems to me sure to be decisive, and to afford no difficulties except the= =20 > mathematical toil that it requires. For as soon as you have once mounted= =20 > the vantage-ground of the logic of relatives, which is related to=20 > ordinary logic precisely as the geometry of three dimensions is to the=20 > geometry of points on a line, as soon as you have scaled this height, I=20 > say, you find that you command the whole citadel of nominalism, which=20 > must thereupon fall almost without another blow. > > >from the "Propositions" chapter of General and Historical Survey of Logic > >The other divisions of terms, propositions, and arguments arise from the=20 >distinction of extension and comprehension. I propose to treat this=20 >subject in a subsequent paper. 1 But I will so far anticipate that as to=20 >say that there is, first, the direct reference of a symbol to its objects,= =20 >or its denotation; second, the reference of the symbol to its ground,=20 >through its object, that is, its reference to the common characters of its= =20 >objects, or its connotation; and third, its reference to its interpretants= =20 >through its object, that is, its reference to all the synthetical=20 >propositions in which its objects in common are subject or predicate, and= =20 >this I term the information it embodies . And as every addition to what it= =20 >denotes, or to what it connotes, is effected by means of a distinct=20 >proposition of this kind, it follows that the extension and comprehension= =20 >of a term are in an inverse relation, as long as the information remains=20 >the same, and that every increase of information is accompanied by an=20 >increase of one or other of these two quantities. It may be observed that= =20 >extension and comprehension are very often taken in other senses in which= =20 >this last proposition is not true. from "On a New List of Categories"=20 >[emphasis added by me] > > > > >Bernard Morand wrote: >> >>A 09:50 16/11/01 -0800, Mary Keeler wrote : >>>How disappointed Peirce would have been by what occurred in that century= =20 >>>after his death in 1914. But Gary offers a fine suggestion. Why don't= =20 >>>we work to create the Pragmatic Web, and aim toward where the Semantic=20 >>>Web must evolve? That will take more than the technological invention=20 >>>called "knowledge processing," and will require us to understand its=20 >>>nominalist roots (at the heart of Semantic Web development). Much of=20 >>>Peirce's work concerns the "metaphysical problem" that science as well=20 >>>as philosophy are nominalistic, and he says (somewhere) that the best=20 >>>way to become a realist is by pushing nominalism to its limits? I'll=20 >>>find that reference, but meantime: >>I like that Mary ! Semantic is not a word that one can find in CSP works.= =20 >>But this is not a mere matter of words. I think that we need a clear=20 >>understanding of : 1- What is the Web in itself : a technology 2- What is= =20 >>its actual use : information by bringing people together 3- What would=20 >>have to be its purpose in the long run : social knowledge augmentation=20 >>Then, "semantic" is quite misleading for the all three questions=20 >>(supposing that they are accepted as such by everyone). In fact, it=20 >>sounds to me as if information and knowledge were already made contents.= =20 >>Contents that technology would have to make available (easily, user=20 >>friendly...and so on). May be that other points of view can exist. But=20 >>the word semantic is the brother of information retrieval, information=20 >>extraction and so on. On the contrary I think that Information is=20 >>something that appears by way of concrete interpretations (a P RODUCT of= =20 >>intension with extension according to Peirce) and I cannot think that it= =20 >>could be some content of any message. The same goes for knowledge. I=20 >>admit that to make such distinctions does not tell us a method of=20 >>working. But as told by a joker : "We have first to have a look upon=20 >>where we don't want to go, because where we are going to, we will already= =20 >>know it when we will be there". Regards Bernard Regards=20 >>Bernard=20 >>__________________________________________________________________=20 >>Bernard Morand D=E9partement Informatique Institut Universitaire de=20 >>Technologie BP53 14123 Ifs Cedex France TEL (33) 02 31 52 55=20 >>34 FAX (33) 02 31 52 55 22 e-mail:=20 >>morand@iutc3.unicaen.fr=20 >>http://www.iutc3.unicaen.fr/~moranb/ ___________________=20 >>_______________________________________________ From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 19 11:45:20 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4E2A456F7E; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:45:19 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tpamail2.bdi.gte.com (tpamail2.bdi.gte.com [192.76.82.136]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAA8D56F7D for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:45:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpftw.interwan.gte.com ([138.83.130.53]) by tpamail2.bdi.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10463 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:58:16 -0500 (EST) From: albert.m.selvin@verizon.com Received: from smtpftw.interwan.gte.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtpftw.interwan.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18606 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from dwsmtp01.bell-atl.com (dwmail21.interwan.gte.com [138.83.36.17]) by smtpftw.interwan.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18546 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:58:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] sorry, incorrect posting: (re: New Compendium case study document online) To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:57:57 -0500 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on DWSMTP01/HSVR/Verizon(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/19/2001 01:58:06 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sorry, I meant to post this on ba-unrev-talk. My mistake. Al Selvin 11/17/2001 11:40 AM To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: New Compendium case study document online (Document link: ?) "Description of A Compendium-Supported Workshop." Lots of Mifflin screen shots and discussion of the various techniques used. It's on the case studies page on the Compendium Institute website -- http://www.compendiuminstitute.org/library/casestudies.htm. The direct URL is http://www.compendiuminstitute.org/compendium/papers/DescriptionOfACompendiumSupportedWorkshop.doc. Comments/discussion welcome (in fact, perhaps Simon or some other D3E wiz can D3E-ize the paper). Cheers, Al From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 19 14:57:12 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9BE0E56F82; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:57:11 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ns10.mmaweb.net (unknown [64.71.146.40]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F59356F7E for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:57:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from oemcomputer.touchgraph.com (pool-141-153-202-161.mad.east.verizon.net [141.153.202.161]) by ns10.mmaweb.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fAJNA9n25507 for ; Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:10:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011119180457.00ab8940@touchgraph.com> X-Sender: alex@touchgraph.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 18:25:16 -0500 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Alex Shapiro Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] relational writing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org A piece titled "Jake Savin on Outlining" http://jake.editthispage.com/2001/11/17 is making it's way up on daypop http://www.daypop.com/search?q=link%3Ajake.editthispage.com/2001/11/17&t=w&max=672

The Outlining piece itself is not that interesting, mostly Jake's complaints about his first outlining experience back in school, but it brought to my attention the following:

Dave Winer of http://scriptingnews.userland.com/ used the term "relational writing" to describe the process or writing blogs.  Like "faceted classification", the words are actually more exciting then the concept itself.  Personally, I'd like see it used in a more IBIS like sense.

Another interesting thing about the scriptingnews blog, is that it uses a technique very reminiscent of purple-numbers (and they're purple too).

Here is a link to the relevant "purple number" tag, and the quote:

http://scriptingnews.userland.com/backissues/2001/11/17#l095b1d16129e90a88075ecbb61afa31b
"Is weblog writing like any other kind of writing that came before? I think not. Linking has never meant so much. I speak from experience, having spent much my early life poring through card catalogs and library shelves, and rarely finding what I was looking for. I was doing then what DNS and HTTP do now (and Google). The Web is so much faster that it makes relational writing possible, much the same way that outlining software made outlining possible. (Before that many people faked the outlines, we were supposed to create them before writing the paper, but instead we wrote them after.)"

--Alex From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Nov 20 23:28:42 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 8A7A756F75; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:28:41 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ns10.mmaweb.net (unknown [64.71.146.40]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BEB056F72 for ; Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:28:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from oemcomputer.touchgraph.com (pool-141-153-202-161.mad.east.verizon.net [141.153.202.161]) by ns10.mmaweb.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fAL7ffn06356 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:41:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121023921.00a804d0@touchgraph.com> X-Sender: alex@touchgraph.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 02:56:54 -0500 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Alex Shapiro Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Peter-Paul Koch - Edit text Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org An interesting javascript that makes a webpage editable, just like a wiki. The difference is that individual paragraphs can be edited inline. This is only a demo, since changes aren't sent to the server, but the interface is pretty neat. http://www.xs4all.nl/~ppk/js/cms.html found here: http://www.web-graphics.com/mtarchive/000200.php#000200 --Alex From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 21 09:40:15 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id C7A5F56F75; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:40:14 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72FFD56F72 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st6.cwo.com [208.186.39.16]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fALHrI19017726 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:53:19 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011121094109.032ad7d0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:50:04 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Greenstone as a HyperScope Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.greenstone.org/english/home.html I have mentioned Greenstone before. The more I play with it, the more I tend to think that it is a HyperScope. Here is what I know about it from playing with it and reading its documentation. It can suck up entire directories (including sub directories) from your hard disk. It can suck up entire web sites (including sub directories ). What it does: It reads the file (types include pdf, ps, doc, txt, html, and some gif/jpg type files) and converts them to an intermediate file (gml). It indexes the gml files. It also appears to do n-gram and other statistical stuff. It also appears to have some phrase detection tools. It says (I haven't seen it yet) it has a corba interface. If you want to add file types for it to handle, you just write a small perl script to do the job and include that script in your "collection" configuration file. Greenstone and all its internal programs are GPL. With a corba interface, we can create a HyperScope interface and just let it do all the internal work. There is another initiative behind Greenstone, that of doing datamining in the Greenstone collections. That's precisely where I hope it will go soon, though Greenstone appears to be linked tightly into some PhD projects, meaning it might be several years before it gets the datamining tools out for us to play with. I suspect that Greenstone is a great candidate (I've said this before) for a prototype HyperScope infrastructure. We just need to learn how to use it and to extend it. Cheers Jack From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 21 12:03:29 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id AD81456F75; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:03:28 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EF0D56F72 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:03:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st217.cwo.com [208.186.39.227]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fALKGX19021541 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:16:34 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011121121302.03270500@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:14:43 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Mozilla Browser 0.9.6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org I'm using the latest http://www.mozilla.org browser (0.9.6 -- fresh as of last night). Haven't managed to make it run applets yet, but it's pretty fast and pretty reliable now. Between Open Office and Mozilla, it seems we are getting close to a solid platform on which to layer OHS stuff. Jack From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 21 15:05:23 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5135C56F75; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:05:22 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC6AB56F72 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:05:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.52]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22139 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:18:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id fALNIQf10752 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:18:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3BFC3664.BA0BBCFA@sun.com> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:19:00 -0800 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Greenstone as a HyperScope References: <4.2.2.20011121094109.032ad7d0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sounds like a winner, Jack. Now that Java 1.4 has regular expressions, though, I've done my last Perl hacking. I now have the best of both worlds! Jack Park wrote: > http://www.greenstone.org/english/home.html > > I have mentioned Greenstone before. The more I play with it, the more I > tend to think that it is a HyperScope. > Here is what I know about it from playing with it and reading its > documentation. > > It can suck up entire directories (including sub directories) from your > hard disk. > It can suck up entire web sites (including sub directories ). > > What it does: > It reads the file (types include pdf, ps, doc, txt, html, and some gif/jpg > type files) and converts them to an intermediate file (gml). > It indexes the gml files. > It also appears to do n-gram and other statistical stuff. > It also appears to have some phrase detection tools. > It says (I haven't seen it yet) it has a corba interface. > > If you want to add file types for it to handle, you just write a small perl > script to do the job and include that script in your "collection" > configuration file. > > Greenstone and all its internal programs are GPL. With a corba interface, > we can create a HyperScope interface and just let it do all the internal work. > > There is another initiative behind Greenstone, that of doing datamining in > the Greenstone collections. That's precisely where I hope it will go soon, > though Greenstone appears to be linked tightly into some PhD projects, > meaning it might be several years before it gets the datamining tools out > for us to play with. > > I suspect that Greenstone is a great candidate (I've said this before) for > a prototype HyperScope infrastructure. We just need to learn how to use it > and to extend it. > > Cheers > Jack From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 21 15:09:45 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D0C0256F75; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:09:44 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F4656F72 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.52]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23613 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id fALNMof11503 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:22:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3BFC376C.BAB979A2@sun.com> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:23:24 -0800 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Mozilla Browser 0.9.6 References: <4.2.2.20011121121302.03270500@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Jack Park wrote: > I'm using the latest http://www.mozilla.org browser (0.9.6 -- fresh as of > last night). Haven't managed to make it run applets yet, but it's pretty > fast and pretty reliable now. > > Between Open Office and Mozilla, it seems we are getting close to a solid > platform on which to layer OHS stuff. Has the interface improved as well? The copy I tried a year or so ago, I remember thinking that the interface was pretty grim. They seemed to moved in the direction of being like Outlook, instead of adhering to their original standards. Has it gotten better? From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 21 15:11:56 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id BE4D756F75; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:11:55 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 514D056F72 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.13]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA24256 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:25:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mehitabel.eng.sun.com (mehitabel.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.82.247]) by engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id PAA05057 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:24:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mehitabel.eng.sun.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA09243 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:28:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3BFC3896.15A33E01@sun.com> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:28:22 -0800 From: Murray Altheim Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Mozilla Browser 0.9.6 References: <4.2.2.20011121121302.03270500@thinkalong.com> <3BFC376C.BAB979A2@sun.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Eric Armstrong wrote: > > Jack Park wrote: > > > I'm using the latest http://www.mozilla.org browser (0.9.6 -- fresh as of > > last night). Haven't managed to make it run applets yet, but it's pretty > > fast and pretty reliable now. > > > > Between Open Office and Mozilla, it seems we are getting close to a solid > > platform on which to layer OHS stuff. > > Has the interface improved as well? > > The copy I tried a year or so ago, I remember thinking that the interface > was pretty grim. They seemed to moved in the direction of being like > Outlook, instead of adhering to their original standards. > > Has it gotten better? You can set skins on Mozilla to look like anything you like. There's a traditional skin option as well as the default, plus there's a whole site full of alternatives, some pretty wild. Murray ........................................................................... Murray Altheim, SGML/XML Grease Monkey Java and XML Software Sun Microsystems, 1601 Willow Rd., MS UMPK17-102, Menlo Park, CA 94025 Ernst Martin comments in 1949, "A certain degree of noise in writing is required for confidence. Without such noise, the writer would not know whether the type was actually printing or not, so he would lose control." From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 21 15:28:30 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B128D56F75; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:28:29 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74DB056F72 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:28:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st130.cwo.com [208.186.39.140]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fALNfY19001591 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:41:35 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011121153743.032739b0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:39:28 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Mozilla Browser 0.9.6 In-Reply-To: <3BFC3896.15A33E01@sun.com> References: <4.2.2.20011121121302.03270500@thinkalong.com> <3BFC376C.BAB979A2@sun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org I like what I see. Has tabs so you don't have to open another browser to view a page without leaving the current page. Loads fast. By the time they hit 1.0, Mozilla should be my prime browser, especially given that I can tweak the code to make it the default html tool in Nexist. Still doesn't recognize the java runtime yet. Jack At 03:28 PM 11/21/2001 -0800, you wrote: >Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > Jack Park wrote: > > > > > I'm using the latest http://www.mozilla.org browser (0.9.6 -- fresh as of > > > last night). Haven't managed to make it run applets yet, but it's pretty > > > fast and pretty reliable now. > > > > > > Between Open Office and Mozilla, it seems we are getting close to a solid > > > platform on which to layer OHS stuff. > > > > Has the interface improved as well? > > > > The copy I tried a year or so ago, I remember thinking that the interface > > was pretty grim. They seemed to moved in the direction of being like > > Outlook, instead of adhering to their original standards. > > > > Has it gotten better? > >You can set skins on Mozilla to look like anything you like. There's >a traditional skin option as well as the default, plus there's a whole >site full of alternatives, some pretty wild. > >Murray > >........................................................................... >Murray Altheim, SGML/XML Grease Monkey >Java and XML Software >Sun Microsystems, 1601 Willow Rd., MS UMPK17-102, Menlo Park, CA 94025 > > Ernst Martin comments in 1949, "A certain degree of noise in > writing is required for confidence. Without such noise, the > writer would not know whether the type was actually printing > or not, so he would lose control." From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Nov 21 15:30:13 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D22A956F78; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:30:12 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6322E56F75 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.13]) by mercury.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA29237 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mehitabel.eng.sun.com (mehitabel.Eng.Sun.COM [129.146.82.247]) by engmail1.Eng.Sun.COM (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id PAA10044 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:43:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from sun.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mehitabel.eng.sun.com (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA09251 for ; Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:46:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3BFC3CE4.56211265@sun.com> Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:46:44 -0800 From: Murray Altheim Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Mozilla Browser 0.9.6 References: <4.2.2.20011121121302.03270500@thinkalong.com> <3BFC376C.BAB979A2@sun.com> <4.2.2.20011121153743.032739b0@thinkalong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Jack Park wrote: > > I like what I see. Has tabs so you don't have to open another browser to > view a page without leaving the current page. > Loads fast. By the time they hit 1.0, Mozilla should be my prime browser, > especially given that I can tweak the code to make it the default html tool > in Nexist. > > Still doesn't recognize the java runtime yet. Have you figured out how to have it respond to calls from an external application to browse a URL? I've been wondering about that one. Murray ........................................................................... Murray Altheim, SGML/XML Grease Monkey Java and XML Software Sun Microsystems, 1601 Willow Rd., MS UMPK17-102, Menlo Park, CA 94025 Ernst Martin comments in 1949, "A certain degree of noise in writing is required for confidence. Without such noise, the writer would not know whether the type was actually printing or not, so he would lose control." From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Nov 22 12:11:23 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6A65956F75; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:11:22 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3226B56F72 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:11:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st129.cwo.com [208.186.39.139]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAMKOS4k001721 for ; Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:24:29 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011122121517.03054690@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:22:19 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] DB Prism XML database framework Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.plenix.com/dbprism/doc/Home.html Apache license. DB Prism is an open source framework to generate dynamic XML from a database. Unlike other technologies, such as Apache XSP or Oracle XSQL servlet , DB Prism generates the dynamic XML inside the database, transforming it into an active database. An active database means that you use the database engine not only to execute SQL statements, but to directly return a complex XML representation of the data stored inside as well. DB Prism is a servlet engine that works in two different modes: as a standalone servlet, or plugged into the Cocoon publishing framework. In the first mode, DB Prism works like the PLSQL Cartridge of Oracle Web Server . Plugged into the Cocoon framework , DB Prism works as a DB Producer, generating dynamic XML from a database DB prism is coverd in detail in a Chapter 21 of the book Profesional XML Databases at Wrox Press. DB Prism already includes support for Oracle databases, but its design allows developers to write adapters to plug into many other kinds of databases From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sat Nov 24 12:41:49 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 26D5756F89; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:41:49 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE72656F72 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:41:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st8.cwo.com [208.186.39.18]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAOKsrwB005267 for ; Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:54:58 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011124124645.023d88f0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:53:05 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Architectures for Intelligent Systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From both the CG and PORT lists: http://www.jfsowa.com/pubs/arch.htm "People communicate with each other in sentences that incorporate two kinds of information: propositions about some subject, and metalevel speech acts that specify how the propositional information is used as an assertion, a command, a question, or a promise. By means of speech acts, a group of people who have different areas of expertise can cooperate and dynamically reconfigure their social interactions to perform tasks and solve problems that would be difficult or impossible for any single individual. This paper proposes a framework for intelligent systems that consist of a variety of specialized components together with logic-based languages that can express propositions and speech acts about those propositions. The result is a system with a dynamically changing architecture that can be reconfigured in various ways: by a human knowledge engineer who specifies a script of speech acts that determine how the components interact; by a planning component that generates the speech acts to redirect the other components; or by a committee of components, which might include human assistants, whose speech acts serve to redirect one another. The components communicate by sending messages to a Linda-like blackboard, in which components accept messages that are either directed to them or that they consider themselves competent to handle. " What's interesting about this paper, for me, is the reference to Linda-like blackboard system. Nexist just happens to contain a Linda-like blackboard in its Content layer. The programs T-Spaces (IBM), JavaSpaces (SUN) and something new from RogueWave) are all based on David Gelernter's Linda system, otherwise known as Tuple Spaces. Gelernter documented all this in his book _Mirror Worlds or: The day software puts the universe in a shoebox...How it will happen and what it will mean_ (Oxford University Press, 1992) recommended reading for system architects Jack From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Nov 26 20:22:07 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id DF58756F75; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:22:06 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A924C56F72 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:22:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st220.cwo.com [208.186.39.230]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAR4ZG4k023034 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:35:17 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011126203114.02348e90@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 20:32:27 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Fwd: [ANN] JudoScript, The Scripting Language for Java Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Not sure what to make of this. It's a freeware scripting language for Java. Looks pretty powerful. Haven't compared it to the open source WebL I mentioned earlier. Jack >From: "James Huang" >To: sacjug-discuss@piclab.com > >Greetings! > >JudoScript is a scripting language and a shell for >the Java Platform. It is a complete object-oriented >programming environment with seamless Java code >interaction. It exposes most Java Platform APIs as >easy-to-use commands or statements, and has many >high-level commands that offer features at a much >higher granularity. It supports advanced data >structures, algorithms and architectures. JudoScript >can be either used directly for many daily tasks, or >for enterprise tasks such as database and XML data >processing, software prototyping and automated >testing, job control and networking. Its many >features include JDBC scripting, XML scripting, >job scheduling, various kinds of file handling, >HTML processing, HTTP client and server programming >with cookie support, versatile mail delivery, >running native executables with full control, >thread programming, GUI creation, ... > > >The following is some of its uses > >+ Data Processing Applications > - Cross-Database Transfer and Processing > - Multi-format Data Processing > - Data Archiving and Backups > >+ Software Development > - Controller and Glue for Animations, etc. > - Prototyping > - Testing > - Technical Documentation > - Product Packaging and Installation > >+ Online System Applications > - Background Jobs > - System Configuration and Monitoring with GUI > >+ Quick Uses > - Date/Time calculation and clock > - Manage directories, files and archives > - Process files > - Database quick fixes > - Sending e-mails > - XML processing and generation > - HTML scraping > - Quick web download, upload > - HTTP server and HTTP proxy server > - Calculator and number format convertion > > >For complete information and software download, visit > > http://www.judoscript.com > > >Cheers! > >James Huang, author From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Nov 27 09:36:37 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5BDB256F75; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:36:36 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from tpamail2.bdi.gte.com (tpamail2.bdi.gte.com [192.76.82.136]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F0056F72 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:36:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtpirv.interwan.gte.com ([138.83.34.67]) by tpamail2.bdi.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23089 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:49:43 -0500 (EST) From: albert.m.selvin@verizon.com Received: from smtpirv.interwan.gte.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtpirv.interwan.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03869 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:49:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from dwsmtp01.bell-atl.com (dwmail21.interwan.gte.com [138.83.36.17]) by smtpirv.interwan.gte.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03634 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 11:49:24 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Re: [unrev-II] Greetings To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:44:26 -0500 Message-ID: X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on DWSMTP01/HSVR/Verizon(Release 5.0.8 |June 18, 2001) at 11/27/2001 11:49:24 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Ping wrote: "Here are some tidbits: - Graph visualization has been mentioned here. I recently did a project for an info-viz class that ended up as a paper; it got mentioned on Slashdot (probably due to our choice of Gnutella as an example domain, rather than the graph layout and animation technique that is the real work in the paper). See: http://bailando.sims.berkeley.edu/infovis.html" Very nice stuff. I watched the video with a co-worker who has done a lot of layout programming and he was very impressed. The emphasis on 'nice' animations that keep user comprehension of what's happening seems to me a big benefit over those approaches that I've seen in similar commercial products like InXight, the Brain, ThinkMap, etc. I'm wondering how hard it would be to link this to a Mifflin/Compendium database (BTW, all, the data model etc. for Mifflin is already "open source" so is available for anyone to do anything with). At present this is an MS-Access database. One of Mifflin's (and QuestMap's) deficiencies is the lack of an "overview" of the data-space as a whole, and I've long thought that a tool like any of the above could serve as this. Al From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Nov 27 20:55:53 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 864D956F75; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:55:52 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ns10.mmaweb.net (unknown [64.71.146.40]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277CF56F72 for ; Tue, 27 Nov 2001 20:55:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from oemcomputer.touchgraph.com (pool-141-153-202-200.mad.east.verizon.net [141.153.202.200]) by ns10.mmaweb.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id fAS58pn26150 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:08:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20011128002152.00ab58f0@touchgraph.com> X-Sender: alex@touchgraph.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:25:08 -0500 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Alex Shapiro Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Fwd: ACM SIGWEB Hypertext 2002 - Call for Participation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org >Sender: "ACM SIGCHI WWW Human Factors (Open Discussion)" >From: "Evan B. Golub" >Subject: ACM SIGWEB Hypertext 2002 - Call for Participation >X-To: egolub@ACM.ORG >To: CHI-WEB@ACM.ORG > >ACM SIGWEB June 11th - 15th, 2002 >2002 Hypertext Conference College Park, MD, USA > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Hypertext > >From online documentation aboard aircraft carriers to distance learning >degree programs to interactive entertainment, hypertext and hypermedia >have transformed our world. The foremost international conference on >hypertext and hypermedia, the International Hypertext conference brings >together scholars, researchers, and practitioners from a diverse array of >disciplines--including computing, literature, law, art, medicine, >business, journalism, philosophy, psychology, and engineering--to consider >the form, role, and impact of hypertext and hypermedia. Hypertext 2002 >will continue to provide a forum where attendees can exchange and discuss >ideas on hypermedia, its design and use in a variety of domains, while >also considering the ability of these technologies to alter the way we >read, write, argue, learn, exchange information, or entertain ourselves. > > >Scope >Hypertext 2002 welcomes discussions from designers and users of hypermedia >applications and works in academia, business, entertainment, and industry. >Here attendees can discuss all aspects of hypermedia, ranging from >navigational aids, time, and infrastructures to digital libraries, >interactive literature, virtual and augmented reality environments, >gaming, human-computer interaction, software engineering, >computer-supported collaborative work, and, of course, the World Wide Web. >Formats for presentation include papers, panels and technical briefings, >short papers and posters, demonstrations, exhibits, courses, workshops, >and a doctoral consortium. > > >Paper topics include but are not limited to: > Interactive games and entertainment > Effects of hypermedia on business or industry > Experiences with the application of hypermedia > Innovative hypertexts and novel uses of hypertext and hypermedia > Web-based hypermedia drama > Collaborative hypermedia technology and applications > Hypermedia in virtual environments and augmented reality environments > Hypermedia in fiction, scholarship, and technical writing > Hypermedia in education and training > Empirical studies and hypermedia evaluation > Hypermedia and time: narratives and storyboarding > Hypertext rhetoric and criticism > Integration and open hypermedia architectures > Large-scale distributed hypermedia > Structuring hypermedia documents for reading and retrieval > Theories, models, architectures, standards, and frameworks > Hypermedia user interfaces > Object-oriented hypermedia > Hypermedia infrastructure technologies > Hypermedia middleware and components > Hypermedia authoring > Hypermedia for the Internet > > >Hypertext 2002 Program Committee >Program Chairs > Kenneth M. Anderson, University of Colorado > Stuart Moulthrop, University of Baltimore >Program Committee > Mark Bernstein, Eastgate Systems > Hugh Davis, University of Southampton > Paul De Bra, Eindhoven University of Technology > David De Roure, University of Southampton > Jane Yellowlees Douglas, University of Florida > Kaj Gronbaek, University of Aarhus > Joerg Haake, FernUniversitaet Hagen > David Hicks, Aalborg University Esbjerg > Cathy Marshall, Microsoft > Frank Nack, CWI > Peter J. Nuernberg, Aalborg University Esbjerg > Siegfried Reich, Salzburg Research > Jim Rosenberg > Frank Shipman, Texas A&M University > E. James Whitehead, University of California, Santa Cruz > Uffe Wiil, Aalborg University Esbjerg > > >Important Dates > Papers > Papers due January 3rd, 2002 > Notification of acceptance March 15th, 2002 > Camera-ready copy due April 15th, 2002 > Tutorials > Proposals due January 15th, 2002 > Notification of acceptance January 30th, 2002 > Workshops > Proposals due January 3rd, 2002 > Notification of acceptance March 15th, 2002 > Doctoral Consortium > Submissions due March 10th, 2002 > Notification of acceptance March 31st, 2002 > Panels > Proposals due January 3rd, 2002 > Notification of acceptance March 15th, 2002 > Demos and Posters > Due dates and notification TBA > > > >PDF Version of Call for Participation available at: > http://www.cs.umd.edu/ht02/ht02.pdf > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Tip of the Day: Quote only what you need from earlier postings > About CHI-WEB: http://www.sigchi.org/web/ > Vacations, holidays and other subscription changes: > http://www.sigchi.org/web/faq.html#vacations > -------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Nov 29 06:25:19 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4099856F75; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:25:19 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B8E56F72 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st27.cwo.com [208.186.39.37]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fATEcTWV028277 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:38:30 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011129063224.023e4a50@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 06:36:38 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Fwd: XML.com: Introduction to dbXML Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org >======================================================== > >Dear Reader, > >Recently on XML.com we published Kimbro Staken's introduction to >native XML databases, which explained the character and uses of >specialized XML databases. This week, Kimbro returns with an >introduction to dbXML, an established open source native XML >database. > >The dbXML database offers XPath-based query over collections of >semi-structured XML documents. Read more about this project in >Kimbro's article at . > >In his most recent XML Q&A column, John Simpson answered a question >about DTDs which led to some interesting feedback from members of >the XML community. In his column this month, John returns to the >problem, and also speculates as to why names in XML can only start >with certain characters. Catch up with XML Q&A at >. > >Carrying on this week's theme of examining successful XML-based >open source applications, Kendall Clark has taken a look at the >ScrollKeeper project. For UNIX-like systems, among others, >multiple and diverse sources of documentation creates a document >management problem. Building on an application of the Dublin Core >Metadata Element Set, ScrollKeeper provides an XML-based solution >for documentation management. > >Kendall's article introduces ScrollKeeper and the Open Source >Metadata Framework, highlighting ways in which ScrollKeeper can >be integrated into your own systems. Get your documentation ducks >in a row at . > >Edd Dumbill >edd@XML.com >Managing Editor, XML.com > >======================================================== >Sponsored by IBM Web Services > >IBM WebSphere Studio Application Developer is the >best-integrated development environment for e-business >and Web services on J2EE. Want to develop >Web services today? Download the beta version >and develop smarter, interoperable solutions. >http://ibm.com/webservices/r/newsletter06 >======================================================== > >*** Featured Articles *** > >Introduction to dbXML >Following on from his introduction to native XML databases, >Kimbro Staken introduces the dbXML open source native XML database. > >http://xml.com/pub/a/2001/11/28/dbxml.html > >*** > >Elements Revisited >John Simpson answers deep questions about content models and >element names, with detours into the simplicity of humans and >machines. > >http://xml.com/pub/a/2001/11/28/q-and-a.html > >*** > >ScrollKeeper: Open Source Document Management >Building on the Open Source Metadata Framework and Dublin Core, >ScrollKeeper sets out to unify the diverse world of open source >documentation. > >http://xml.com/pub/a/2001/11/28/scrollkeeper.html > >*** > >SVG: Where Are We Now? >SVG expert Antoine Quint surveys the current state of tool support >for the W3C's Scalable Vector Graphics Recommendation. > >http://xml.com/pub/a/2001/11/21/svgtools.html > >*** > >XML in Electronic Court Filing >An overview of how XML is finding application in several electronic >court filing pilot schemes throughout the US. > >http://xml.com/pub/a/2001/11/14/e-filing.html > >==================================================================== >Sponsored by VeriSign - The Value of Trust > >Pinpoint the right security solution for your company - FREE Guide >from industry leader VeriSign gives you all the facts. Learn how > - Add the most powerful online encryption > - Quickly authenticate your site >Get your FREE Guide now at: >http://www.verisign.com/cgi-bin/go.cgi?a=n061163060057000 >===================================================================== > >*** XML News Headlines from The XML Cover Pages by Robin Cover *** > >OASIS Technical Committee Proposed for TransQuery. >http://xml.com/pub/a/coverpage/newspage.html#ni2001-11-28-b > >New Release of Open Source NewsML Toolkit. >http://xml.com/pub/a/coverpage/newspage.html#ni2001-11-28-a > >ContentGuard Releases XrML Version 2.0 and Submits Specification >to Standards Bodies. >http://xml.com/pub/a/coverpage/newspage.html#ni2001-11-27-a > >ODRL Version 1.0 Submitted to ISO/IEC MPEG for Rights Data >Dictionary and Rights Expression Language (RDD-REL). >http://xml.com/pub/a/coverpage/newspage.html#ni2001-11-21-d > >Auto-ID Center Uses Physical Markup Language in Radio Frequency >Identification (RFID) Tag Technology. >http://xml.com/pub/a/coverpage/newspage.html#ni2001-11-21-c From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Nov 29 20:28:20 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 27CAA56F75; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:28:20 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B4A56F72 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:28:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st237.cwo.com [208.186.39.247]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAU4fWrT021320 for ; Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:41:33 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011129203409.02382140@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:38:33 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Askemos -- Grove-like operating system Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.askemos.org/ GPL C and Scheme "The Askemos server is an autonomous, distributed operating system on top of peer to peer networks which significantly raises the level of abstraction in comparison with today's operating systems. It can also be understood as an XML object database with stored procedures in XSLT. Askemos features a virtual machine at document level, an access control system modelled after general key systems, persistant processes and implicit parallelism." When you start to surf this web site, it turns into a Wiki. After a lot of roaming about, I find links to a variety of very interesting places, including the xml.com tutorial on Groves. The system is designed to operate in a P2P environment. From the high level design document: "- Root less object network model. - Persistent data. - Not data specific, XML optimized. - Flexible name space management. - Object autonomy. - ACID transactions. - Simple messaging concept. - Any extension language feasible. - Lightweight threads at my fingertip. - The sheer concept of a dead lock is a bug altogether. - Many network protocols supported. - API for backing store adaptors supporting freenet, gnutella etc. - Distributed Virtual Machine (DVM). - A frame work for object to sustain at least 15 years. - Something for document management as Perl is for tasks like system administration. Would have to be sort of an application server, but none could deliver the needed features. - Few dependencies, small footprint." I'd say there is much to be learnt by roaming this site. Particularly for those who want to discuss NODAL, Groves, and so forth. Jack From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Nov 30 12:26:46 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id A819956F75; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:26:45 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail1.cwo.com [209.210.78.50]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 598B356F72 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:26:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st208.cwo.com [208.186.39.218]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fAUKdbub008036 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:39:54 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011130120908.0231c160@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 12:37:15 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Helma Object Publisher Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Java. BSD license. http://helma.org/ In the search for something to serve as a foundation for a web publisher for an OHS/DKR, I have passed along many links to this list. The one I am now passing seems to present an enormous leap in capability. I'll attach some quotes from the site below, but let me now point out some of the features. As a Web object publisher, you might expect there are some interesting applications to go with it. Start with two weblogs, one of which can be exercised (with many examples) at http://www.antville.org/ A WikiWiki, which can be exercised at http://gong.helma.at/ A Flash applet (no example available, but the source code is downloadable) A simple image database http://www.langreiter.com/space/DingsBox -- which, BTW, is GPL, and written on top of Helma (I wonder how that will pan out) A webMail client http://www.knallgrau.at/helmamailclient (assuming you can read the German). As I am sending this, I am doing a cvs dump of the entire project. Given that it uses HSQLDB as one of its database options (which I already use in Nexist), and it includes its own server (according to the web site), I think I'll just run it on my local machine. With a wiki, weblog, and email client, I may be able to make use of it immediately. Requisite web quotation: "Welcome to Helma.org, home of the Hop. Helma (also called Helma object publisher, or Hop for short) is a scriptable open source web application server written in Java. Helma is already being used by popular sites that serve hundreds of thousands of dynamic pages per day. Our goal is to build on that to make it the tool of choice for a broad range of web services while keeping it fun to work with. Why another application server? Because, quite honestly, the one we need hasn't been built yet. What we need is a platform that offers a high level of abstraction on the prevalent web application concepts, but is not dumbed down and stripped of power and flexibility in order to be "idiot proof". The problem of so many J2EE solutions is that they are targeted to Java developers. But do you have to sleep with the Java language specification under your pillow in order to build clean and solid web applications? We don't think so. On the other hand, high level platforms often sacrifice the smart concepts in the underlying layers because their architects don't trust their users to be able to grasp those concepts. That's why JSP was patterened after Microsoft ASP when everybody doing serious web work already knew how broken that approach was. Our credo is: Building websites should not be a task of system level programming. But when you bring web site building to the "ordinary people", they should be able to use the serious tools to get the job done. That's what we're trying to provide with Helma. " From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Nov 30 13:13:35 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0DC0756F77; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:13:34 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail3.svr.pol.co.uk (mail3.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.19]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EECA056F72 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 13:13:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from modem-1031.honker.dialup.pol.co.uk ([217.134.161.7] helo=vaio) by mail3.svr.pol.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.13 #0) id 169vBG-00059p-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:26:46 +0000 Message-ID: <000701c179e5$b1350c40$07a186d9@vaio> From: "Peter Jones" To: References: <4.2.2.20011129203409.02382140@thinkalong.com> Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Askemos -- Grove-like operating system Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 21:26:35 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org And look at the related projects page too http://www.askemos.org:7081/Askemos/RelatedProjects TUNES Very simillar in design goals. Active in 11-2001 Jitrix: http://www.jtrix.org/ Probably the second most simillar projects on the way. Needs investigation. XNS: http://www.xns.org and http://openprivacy.org/ At lot of design work to draw from. Aparently less code? Oxygen: http://www.oxygen.lcs.mit.edu similar goals in the long run. Much larger scope. one.world: http://one.cs.washington.edu/tutorial/counter.html Looks somehow simillar. Lot's of pointers. I need some time to look into (which I'm not gonna have soon) and I would not want to write that much code just for a counter. ;-) Vapour: http://vapour.sourceforge.net/ Simillar system design see AskemosHLD. No public release and seems to be dead by 11-2001 FramerD: http://www.framerd.org similar analytical goals; has been tried in a prototype and proved a structural match (not hierarchical). Development state too much alpha, moving target, too slow. BRL a java servlet / scheme server bearing minor similarities ApacheCocoon same script programming language, simillar processing model Zope: http://www.zope.org an application server, which almost became the code base but it has structural issues which made that infeasible. xmlblaster: http://www.xmlblaster.org similar model, about the same speed. Charlie: http://www.gingerall.com/charlie-bin/get/webGA/act/charlie.act Both the black box view and the way it works intrnally are similar (judged from the description on the web pages), except that's a proxy only (we can do that too, our server contains a http client). : http://www.brics.dk/bigwig/ similar for web programming (judged from first web page) except that it defines a proprietary language, which might be useful. Peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Park" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 4:38 AM Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Askemos -- Grove-like operating system > http://www.askemos.org/ > > GPL C and Scheme > > "The Askemos server is an autonomous, distributed operating system on top > of peer to peer networks which significantly raises the level of > abstraction in comparison with today's operating systems. It can also be > understood as an XML object database with stored procedures in XSLT. > Askemos features a virtual machine at document level, an access control > system modelled after general key systems, persistant processes and > implicit parallelism." > > When you start to surf this web site, it turns into a Wiki. After a lot of > roaming about, I find links to a variety of very interesting places, > including the xml.com tutorial on Groves. > > The system is designed to operate in a P2P environment. > > From the high level design document: > "- Root less object network model. - Persistent data. - Not data specific, > XML optimized. - Flexible name space management. - Object autonomy. - ACID > transactions. - Simple messaging concept. - Any extension language > feasible. - Lightweight threads at my fingertip. - The sheer concept of a > dead lock is a bug altogether. - Many network protocols supported. - API > for backing store adaptors supporting freenet, gnutella etc. - Distributed > Virtual Machine (DVM). - A frame work for object to sustain at least 15 > years. - Something for document management as Perl is for tasks like system > administration. Would have to be sort of an application server, but none > could deliver the needed features. - Few dependencies, small footprint." > > I'd say there is much to be learnt by roaming this site. Particularly for > those who want to discuss NODAL, Groves, and so forth. > > Jack > > From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Nov 30 22:06:20 2001 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id B898556F77; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:06:19 -0800 (PST) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail2.cwo.com [209.210.78.33]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FE4B56F72 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:06:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from jpark2 (port-st128.cwo.com [208.186.39.138]) by mail.cwo.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id fB16JXxK010768 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:19:34 -0800 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20011130215722.02315340@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:16:18 -0800 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] First trials with Helma Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org In my post http://www.bootstrap.org/lists/ba-ohs-talk/0111/msg00057.html I mentioned Helma, a BSD licensed Java Web application server. I got it running. Just download either the unix or Wintel version, install, and go. Well, not quite. I installed the Wintel version. Then had to go in and tweak a bunch of *.properties files. Then it started running fine. (Well, "fine" is a relative word -- there really are a few bugs floating about -- haven't coaxed the Wiki to work yet). I had to follow the instructions for replacing MySQL with HSQLDB, the Java open source database, then drop the antville directory into the apps folder, and tell the apps.properties file that antville was there. I did that while HOP (as it is called) was running and when I saved the properties file, I noticed that HOP promptly discovered the new application. Reload the web page and antville shows up as an application. Click on it, start a new weblog, and away it goes. Why does this appear so easy? It does because the entirety of the Java code supports applications written in JavaScript, macros, skins (html snippets), and properties files. All the hard work is done by the JS interpreter with a database extension, and a bunch of Java code that app writers don't have to create. I suspect it helps to be a JS, CSS, and macro jock, however. Now, I have no idea (at this time) how far HOP can be pushed. I got the email client to work, except that it doesn't appear to actually go online and get some mail. The client seems like a tiny prototype (demo, I suppose). It will need work. Here's where things get interesting. It appears like the weblog app "antville" is strong enough that it can serve as the "inbox" for an email client (and an outbox as well). Couple that with a few other features and it looks like you might have the beginnings of an application that has the look and feel of Rod Welch's SDS program. I suspect some additional features will have to be added to the core HOP architecture to support all the linking and recall power in SDS. In any case, I am thinking this is a pretty amazing demonstration of what you can do by writing a powerful infrastructure to support an interpreted Web application. Scalable? Don't know that either. Mutable? Yup. Fun? Yup. Cheers Jack