From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jul 3 22:36:31 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 04A5656FF3; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (mta4.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.142]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 84ED756FF2 for ; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net ([32.102.64.203]) by mta4.snfc21.pbi.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0GYP00LE0KZ5U2@mta4.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 22:10:49 -0700 From: Rod Welch Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Conference on Collaborating, Facilitating To: "Conklin, Jeff" Cc: "Clare, Mark" , "Eyken, Henry van" , "Joslyn, Cliff" , "OHS/DKR, SRI" Message-id: <3D23D8D9.88DEB9F6@attglobal.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Jeff, Any feedback on the conference you conducted this past June under a call for papers issued on 020301? Has there been, or is there, a report in the works, per example at.... http://www.welchco.com/04/00009/03/0008.HTM#0001 ...that identifies objectives and explains accomplishments on overcoming resistance to using hypertext for improving communication, per background and issues shown in the record today.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/02/07/03/105151.HTM#0001 By copy alerting a others interested in technology for aiding collaboration and augmenting intelligence, who will be interested in results of the conference. Thanks. Rod From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Jul 8 06:54:55 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 3E3B856FF2; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AFA4256FF2; Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home ([63.197.14.24]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GYX00H71ORRMW@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net>; Mon, 08 Jul 2002 07:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 07:11:53 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences To: ba-unrev-talk@bootstrap.org, ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <000d01c22689$68eddfb0$180ec53f@home> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Q9aXKcpv+x06sCEWVXwszQ)" Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Q9aXKcpv+x06sCEWVXwszQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Greetings, The Behavioral Computational Neuroscience Group and The OntologyStream are proposing a Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences: http://www.bcngroup.org/area3/manhattan/sindex.htm. The BCNGroup Founding Committee asks that we forward information about this Project to a wide audience! The link at: http://www.bcngroup.org/area3/manhattan/sindex.htm. has a button and Java script to automate the sending of e-mail about the Manhattan project to e-mail addresses that you enter. Cheers, -jtm --Boundary_(ID_Q9aXKcpv+x06sCEWVXwszQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Message

Greetings,

The Behavioral Computational Neuroscience Group and The OntologyStream are proposing a Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences:

 http://www.bcngroup.org/area3/manhattan/sindex.htm.

 The BCNGroup Founding Committee asks that we forward information about this Project to a wide audience!

The link at: http://www.bcngroup.org/area3/manhattan/sindex.htm. has a button and Java script to automate the sending of e-mail about the Manhattan project to e-mail addresses that you enter. 

 

Cheers,

 

-jtm

--Boundary_(ID_Q9aXKcpv+x06sCEWVXwszQ)-- From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 9 08:13:27 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5B54956FF3; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from ns10.mmaweb.net (unknown [64.71.146.40]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E278456FF2 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 08:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ALEX.touchgraph.com (pool-138-89-83-191.mad.east.verizon.net [138.89.83.191]) by ns10.mmaweb.net (8.11.0/8.11.0) with ESMTP id g69FRNF24731 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20020709112822.038418d0@touchgraph.com> X-Sender: alex@touchgraph.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 11:30:13 -0400 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Alex Shapiro Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Web Conversation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org "Both weblogs and web communities could be dramatically improved if the relationships between different messages in a conversation could be expressed in a standardized way. If a standard for conversation messages and relationships existed, content could be more easily aggregated into other representations, while preserving the conversations' original context. This would make many new things possible, and many hard things easier." http://www.dancingrabbit.org/skyhouse/webconversation/background.shtml --Alex From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 9 09:40:08 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9D94056FF4; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:40:07 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8667F56FF3; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PCKM013.open.ac.uk (actually host dhcp-kmi-193.open.ac.uk) by venus.open.ac.uk via SMTP Local (Mailer 3.1) with ESMTP; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:57:00 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020709175418.00a7b710@tesla.open.ac.uk> X-Sender: sjb72@tesla.open.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:56:56 +0100 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org, "Conklin, Jeff" From: Simon Buckingham Shum Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Conference on Collaborating, Facilitating Cc: "Clare, Mark" , "Eyken, Henry van" , "Joslyn, Cliff" , "OHS/DKR, SRI" In-Reply-To: <3D23D8D9.88DEB9F6@attglobal.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3164920==_.ALT" Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org --=====================_3164920==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 22:10 03/07/2002 -0700, Rod Welch wrote: >Jeff, > >Any feedback on the conference you conducted this past June under a >call for papers issued on 020301? Hi We just finished an initial report on this: http://cognexus.org/ht02/ - Simon To: vims@yahoogroups.com Subject: [vims] Report from the "HypACoM" Workshop at Hypertext 2002 We had a very exciting and successful workshop on Hypertext Augmented Collaborative Modelling (now aka HypACoM) at the international Hypertext 2002 conference in June. This is the exciting general area of technology-assisted facilitation that is emerging, and of which Dialog Mapping and Compendium are two leading examples. The report from the workshop is now available (at the moment in Word .doc format only) at http://cognexus.org/ht02/hypacom2002-report.doc. I also have exciting news about recent developments with Dialog Mapping, and the Mifflin software tool, but I'm racing to catch a flight to the UK to do our first ever public Dialog Mapping workshop there. So I'll be sending a newsletter in a few weeks. Cheers, Jeff Dr. Jeff Conklin CogNexus Institute ... Collaborative Display, Collective Intelligence http://cognexus.org Phone: 410-798-4495 Fax: 410-798-0806 304 Arbutus Dr., Edgewater, MD 21037 USA ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: vims-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --=====================_3164920==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 22:10 03/07/2002 -0700, Rod Welch wrote:
Jeff,

Any feedback on the conference you conducted this past June under a
call for papers issued on 020301? 

Hi

We just finished an initial report on this: http://cognexus.org/ht02/

- Simon

To: vims@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [vims] Report from the "HypACoM" Workshop at Hypertext 2002
We had a very exciting and successful workshop on Hypertext Augmented
Collaborative Modelling (now aka HypACoM) at the international Hypertext
2002 conference in June. This is the exciting general area of
technology-assisted facilitation that is emerging, and of which Dialog
Mapping and Compendium are two leading examples.
The report from the workshop is now available (at the moment in Word .doc
format only) at http://cognexus.org/ht02/hypacom2002-report.doc.
I also have exciting news about recent developments with Dialog Mapping,
and the Mifflin software tool, but I'm racing to catch a flight to the UK
to do our first ever public Dialog Mapping workshop there. So I'll be
sending a newsletter in a few weeks.
Cheers,
Jeff


Dr. Jeff Conklin <jeff@cognexus.org>
CogNexus Institute ... Collaborative Display, Collective Intelligence
http://cognexus.org Phone: 410-798-4495 Fax: 410-798-0806
304 Arbutus Dr., Edgewater, MD 21037 USA
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
vims-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--=====================_3164920==_.ALT-- From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 9 09:45:11 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id D9E1156FF5; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:45:10 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 21C7E56FF4 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PCKM013.open.ac.uk (actually host dhcp-kmi-193.open.ac.uk) by venus.open.ac.uk via SMTP Local (Mailer 3.1) with ESMTP; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:01:28 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020709175714.00ac4a70@tesla.open.ac.uk> X-Sender: sjb72@tesla.open.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:01:26 +0100 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Simon Buckingham Shum Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Web Conversation In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020709112822.038418d0@touchgraph.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3433837==_.ALT" Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org --=====================_3433837==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 11:30 09/07/2002 -0400, Alex Shapiro wrote: >"Both weblogs and web communities could be dramatically improved if the >relationships between different messages in a conversation could be >expressed in a standardized way. If a standard for conversation messages >and relationships existed, content could be more easily aggregated into >other representations, while preserving the conversations' original >context. This would make many new things possible, and many hard things >easier." stumbled recently across a thoughtful paper by John Sillince [http://staff.abs.aston.ac.uk/jsillince/jsillince.htm] on the prospects and problems of augmenting CMC with explicit argumentation support: Sillince J.A.A., and Saeedi M.H., 1999, 'Computer-mediated communication: problems and potentials of argumentation support systems', Decision Support Systems , 26, 287-306. http://staff.abs.aston.ac.uk/jsillince/ARTICLE8.htm Simon --=====================_3433837==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 11:30 09/07/2002 -0400, Alex Shapiro wrote:
"Both weblogs and web communities could be dramatically improved if the relationships between different messages in a conversation could be expressed in a standardized way. If a standard for conversation messages and relationships existed, content could be more easily aggregated into other representations, while preserving the conversations' original context. This would make many new things possible, and many hard things easier."


stumbled recently across a thoughtful paper by John Sillince [http://staff.abs.aston.ac.uk/jsillince/jsillince.htm] on the prospects and problems of augmenting CMC with explicit argumentation support:

Sillince J.A.A., and Saeedi M.H., 1999, ‘Computer-mediated communication: problems and potentials of argumentation support systems’, Decision Support Systems , 26, 287-306.
http://staff.abs.aston.ac.uk/jsillince/ARTICLE8.htm

Simon
--=====================_3433837==_.ALT-- From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 9 09:55:27 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0306856FF3; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from venus.open.ac.uk (venus.open.ac.uk [137.108.143.2]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D5A256FF2 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from PCKM013.open.ac.uk (actually host dhcp-kmi-193.open.ac.uk) by venus.open.ac.uk via SMTP Local (Mailer 3.1) with ESMTP; Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:10:02 +0100 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20020709180702.0277df00@tesla.open.ac.uk> X-Sender: sjb72@tesla.open.ac.uk X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:09:58 +0100 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Simon Buckingham Shum Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] CoAKTinG project In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020709175418.00a7b710@tesla.open.ac.uk> References: <3D23D8D9.88DEB9F6@attglobal.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3946184==_.ALT" Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org --=====================_3946184==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable thought some of you might be interested to see how we're thinking about a=20 new project just started here, integrating Compendium with presence=20 information, video conferencing/virtual meetings, and workflow/coordination: CoAKTinG (Collaborative Advanced Knowledge Technologies in the Grid) http://www.aktors.org/coakting CoAKTinG (Collaborative Advanced Knowledge Technologies in the Grid) is a=20 project that will start in June 2002 and run for 24 months. It is funded by= =20 the UK e-Science Programme. An introductory paper on CoAKTinG submitted=20 accepted for presentation at WACE-2002 is available: Buckingham Shum, S., De Roure, D., Eisenstadt, M., Shadbolt, N. and Tate,=20 A. (2002) CoAKTinG: Collaborative Advanced Knowledge Technologies in the=20 Grid. Proceedings of the Second Workshop on Advanced Collaborative=20 Environments, Eleventh IEEE Int. Symposium on High Performance Distributed= =20 Computing (HPDC-11), July 24-26, 2002, Edinburgh, Scotland. [HTML format,=20 PDF format, MS Word format]. The Objective is to advance the state of the art in collaborative mediated= =20 spaces for distributed e-Science collaboration through the novel=20 application of advanced knowledge technologies such as: =B7 Ontologies to enhance multi-modal and multi-media time phased= group=20 discussions and problem solving =B7 Knowledge-based planning and task support to enhance issue-based= =20 process/activity discussions =B7 Scholarly discourse and argumentation to enhance collaborative=20 meeting structures =B7 Presence and visualisation to enhance group peripheral awareness= at=20 a distance --=====================_3946184==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable thought some of you might be interested to see how we're thinking about a new project just started here, integrating Compendium with presence information, video conferencing/virtual meetings, and workflow/coordination:

CoAKTinG (Collaborative Advanced Knowledge Technologies in the Grid)

http://www.aktors.org/coakting

CoAKTinG (Collaborative Advanced Knowledge Technologies in the Grid) is a project that will start in June 2002 and run for 24 months. It is funded by the UK e-Science Programme. An introductory paper on CoAKTinG submitted accepted for presentation at WACE-2002 is available:

Buckingham Shum, S., De Roure, D., Eisenstadt, M., Shadbolt, N. and Tate, A. (2002) CoAKTinG: Collaborative Advanced Knowledge Technologies in the Grid. Proceedings of the Second Workshop on Advanced Collaborative Environments, Eleventh IEEE Int. Symposium on High Performance Distributed Computing (HPDC-11), July 24-26, 2002, Edinburgh, Scotland. [
HTML format, PDF format, MS Word format].

The Objective is to advance the state of the art in collaborative mediated spaces for distributed e-Science collaboration through the novel application of advanced knowledge technologies such as:

=B7    &nbs= p;  Ontologies to enhance multi-modal and multi-media time phased group discussions and problem solving
=B7      = ; Knowledge-based planning and task support to enhance issue-based process/activity discussions
=B7      = ; Scholarly discourse and argumentation to enhance collaborative meeting structures
=B7      = ; Presence and visualisation to enhance group peripheral awareness at a distance
--=====================_3946184==_.ALT-- From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jul 10 15:22:01 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1304A56FF4; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from prserv.net (out2.prserv.net [32.97.166.32]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3AC0556FF2 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:21:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net (slip-32-102-64-193.ca.us.prserv.net[32.102.64.193]) by prserv.net (out2) with SMTP id <2002071022385620205c349pe>; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:38:58 +0000 Message-ID: <3D2CB7ED.8E3C85D9@attglobal.net> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:40:45 -0700 From: Rod Welch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: announce@gkec.org Cc: "Clare, Mark" , "Snowden, Dave" , "Traille, Ed" , "Conklin, Jeff" , "OHS/DKR, SRI" Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Economics of Management Enable Culture of Knowledge References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org John, Thanks for your letter on June 27, shown below, announcing a seminar where Mark Clare will develop ROI calculations for KM. This can be a powerful enabling force that provides timely guidance to strengthen wider economy, as further set out in my letter to you.... http://www.welchco.com/04/00070/61/02/07/0801.HTM#0001 Good luck with the conference. Thanks. Rod ************* announce@gkec.org wrote: > > The Global Knowledge Economics Council (GKEC) invites you to "The > Knowledge Economics Summit" sponsored by the GKEC and the Knowledge > Management Cluster® > > The Knowledge Economics Summit will be Monday and Tuesday, July 29/30, > 2002 in San Francisco, California USA, from 8am-5pm. > > http://www.kmcluster.com/kes/ > > The Knowledge Economics Summit is the first event of its kind to combine > the twin disciplines of "Value-based Knowledge Management" and > "Economics-based Knowledge Management" into an efficient, two-day, > interactive workshop. > > This event is an important milestones in the ascendancy of knowledge > management and enterprise collaboration. It will be instrumental in > establishing KM, enterprise collaboration and communities as key financial > drivers and competitive differentiators for the enterprise. > > This workshop will allow you to articulate to top management, boards, > shareholders and investors the stunning financial advantages and lasting > value of your knowledge management and enterprise collaboration > initiatives. > > The methods and techniques you will take away from this event will allow > you to capture the attention of your top management in order to win > sponsorship and lead excellence in KM and enterprise collaboration. > > You will learn proven techniques to build powerful cases for your KM > initiatives using the language and techniques of business economics and > corporate finance. > > The Knowledge Economics Summit is not a discussion of management fads or > philosophy. It is a hands-on workshop to equip you with the tools and > abilities to understand and drive the financial benefits and value of > knowledge management and enterprise collaboration. You will learn how to > use KM, collaboration and community to drive top-line growth and > bottom-line efficiencies for the enterprise. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > Benefits > The Knowledge Economics Summit will give you the tools to propel knowledge > management and enterprise collaboration onto the enterprise agenda. It > will enable you to rationalize and lead a robust knowledge strategy for > your firm. > > Many KM and enterprise collaboration initiatives are challenged. They > languish from lack of awareness, poor measurement and misunderstood > financial benefits. > > The Knowledge Economics Summit will allow you to answer the fundamental > question -- What are the financial advantages, benefits and shareholder > value created by your knowledge management and enterprise collaboration > strategies, initiatives and technology deployments? > > The hands-on Knowledge Economics Summit will give you the tools and > techniques to allow you to achieve the following goals and objectives for > your organization, clients and customers: > > o Learn/use applied tools and techniques for Value-based Knowledge > Management > > o Fundamentally and permanantly reform financial management techniques for > knowledge management, enterprise collaboration and business communities > > o Develop hard financial and systems level models to evaluate and select > KM and collaboration technologies > > o Use corporate finance and economic techniques to show the > mission-critical nature of KM and enterprise collaboration > > o Displace ineffective information systems investment with effective > financial leadership of knowledge-based initiatives > > o Arrive at a common definition and vocabulary for Value-based Knowledge > Management and Knowledge Economics > > o Identify resources and opinion leaders in Knowledge Economics > > o Interact with your peer group to share and diffuse KM innovations and > models > > The main thrust of the Knowledge Economics Summit occurs at the > intersection of leadership, practice and research. > > By design and necessity, the Knowledge Economic Summit triangulates > business leadership, knowledge management practice and leading academic > research. The result is practical, relevant and immediate application to > business. > > You will take away turnkey tools, methods, templates, formulas, techniques > and concepts to immediately and effectively apply in your day-to-day > activities and longer term KM planning initiatives. > > Knowledge Economics Summit Event Web > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > Logistics and Registration > The Knowledge Economics Summit will be Monday and Tuesday, July 29/30, > 2002 in San Francisco, California USA, from 8am-5pm. > > The venue is: > > The California Room > Mark Hopkins Inter-Continental Hotel > Number One Nob Hill, 999 California Street > San Francisco, California 94108 USA > Tel: +1 415 392 3434, Fax: +1 415 421 3302 > E-mail: SanFrancisco@interconti.com > > Secure, online registration is required. This event will reach capacity > quickly. Tuition covers event costs, including materials, refreshments, > meals, equipment and related expenses. > > Knowledge Economics Summit Secure Online Registration > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > > The KM Cluster Knowledge Economics Summit is open to all. Pre-registration > online is required. Unlike expensive mega-conferences and hype-fueled > vendor seminars, participation is keep small to maximize productive > interactions. > > All participants are identified. Follow-up interaction and ongoing > collaboration among participants and event leaders is encouraged and > commonplace. > > For secure, online registration visit: > https://www.kmcluster.com/secureorderform.htm > > Sincerely, > > Edward Swanstrom > Secretary-General > Global Knowledge Economics Council > http://www.gkec.org > edward-swanstrom@gkec.org > > John Maloney > www.kmcluster.com/kes > jmaloney@kmcluster.com > Knowledge Management Cluster > > To be removed from the KM Standards mailing list, visit > http://www.nationalknowledge.com/remove.asp?code=2736858733 From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jul 10 15:35:25 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9629956FF5; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2511D56FF4 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home ([63.197.14.24]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GZ200GL127AEQ@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 15:52:23 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: RE: [ba-ohs-talk] Economics of Management Enable Culture of Knowledge In-reply-to: <3D2CB7ED.8E3C85D9@attglobal.net> To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Cc: "'Snowden, Dave'" , "'Traille, Ed'" , "'Conklin, Jeff'" , Mark.clare@verizon.net Message-id: <000101c22864$74911120$180ec53f@home> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Rod, Thanks for your message and best wishes. The "Knowledge Economics Summit" is filling-up fast. There is considerable demand for the twin disciplines of "Value-based Knowledge Management" and "Economics-based Knowledge Management." Please note Mark Clare's preferred email: mark.clare@verizon.net. Cordially, John -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Rod Welch Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:41 PM To: announce@gkec.org Cc: Clare, Mark; Snowden, Dave; Traille, Ed; Conklin, Jeff; OHS/DKR, SRI Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Economics of Management Enable Culture of Knowledge John, Thanks for your letter on June 27, shown below, announcing a seminar where Mark Clare will develop ROI calculations for KM. This can be a powerful enabling force that provides timely guidance to strengthen wider economy, as further set out in my letter to you.... http://www.welchco.com/04/00070/61/02/07/0801.HTM#0001 Good luck with the conference. Thanks. Rod ************* announce@gkec.org wrote: > > The Global Knowledge Economics Council (GKEC) invites you to "The > Knowledge Economics Summit" sponsored by the GKEC and the Knowledge > Management ClusterR > > The Knowledge Economics Summit will be Monday and Tuesday, July 29/30, > 2002 in San Francisco, California USA, from 8am-5pm. > > http://www.kmcluster.com/kes/ > > The Knowledge Economics Summit is the first event of its kind to > combine the twin disciplines of "Value-based Knowledge Management" and > "Economics-based Knowledge Management" into an efficient, two-day, > interactive workshop. > > This event is an important milestones in the ascendancy of knowledge > management and enterprise collaboration. It will be instrumental in > establishing KM, enterprise collaboration and communities as key > financial drivers and competitive differentiators for the enterprise. > > This workshop will allow you to articulate to top management, boards, > shareholders and investors the stunning financial advantages and > lasting value of your knowledge management and enterprise > collaboration initiatives. > > The methods and techniques you will take away from this event will > allow you to capture the attention of your top management in order to > win sponsorship and lead excellence in KM and enterprise > collaboration. > > You will learn proven techniques to build powerful cases for your KM > initiatives using the language and techniques of business economics > and corporate finance. > > The Knowledge Economics Summit is not a discussion of management fads > or philosophy. It is a hands-on workshop to equip you with the tools > and abilities to understand and drive the financial benefits and value > of knowledge management and enterprise collaboration. You will learn > how to use KM, collaboration and community to drive top-line growth > and bottom-line efficiencies for the enterprise. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > ------ > Benefits > The Knowledge Economics Summit will give you the tools to propel knowledge > management and enterprise collaboration onto the enterprise agenda. It > will enable you to rationalize and lead a robust knowledge strategy for > your firm. > > Many KM and enterprise collaboration initiatives are challenged. They > languish from lack of awareness, poor measurement and misunderstood > financial benefits. > > The Knowledge Economics Summit will allow you to answer the > fundamental question -- What are the financial advantages, benefits > and shareholder value created by your knowledge management and > enterprise collaboration strategies, initiatives and technology > deployments? > > The hands-on Knowledge Economics Summit will give you the tools and > techniques to allow you to achieve the following goals and objectives > for your organization, clients and customers: > > o Learn/use applied tools and techniques for Value-based Knowledge > Management > > o Fundamentally and permanantly reform financial management techniques > for knowledge management, enterprise collaboration and business > communities > > o Develop hard financial and systems level models to evaluate and > select KM and collaboration technologies > > o Use corporate finance and economic techniques to show the > mission-critical nature of KM and enterprise collaboration > > o Displace ineffective information systems investment with effective > financial leadership of knowledge-based initiatives > > o Arrive at a common definition and vocabulary for Value-based > Knowledge Management and Knowledge Economics > > o Identify resources and opinion leaders in Knowledge Economics > > o Interact with your peer group to share and diffuse KM innovations > and models > > The main thrust of the Knowledge Economics Summit occurs at the > intersection of leadership, practice and research. > > By design and necessity, the Knowledge Economic Summit triangulates > business leadership, knowledge management practice and leading > academic research. The result is practical, relevant and immediate > application to business. > > You will take away turnkey tools, methods, templates, formulas, > techniques and concepts to immediately and effectively apply in your > day-to-day activities and longer term KM planning initiatives. > > Knowledge Economics Summit Event Web > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > ------ > Logistics and Registration > The Knowledge Economics Summit will be Monday and Tuesday, July 29/30, > 2002 in San Francisco, California USA, from 8am-5pm. > > The venue is: > > The California Room > Mark Hopkins Inter-Continental Hotel > Number One Nob Hill, 999 California Street > San Francisco, California 94108 USA > Tel: +1 415 392 3434, Fax: +1 415 421 3302 > E-mail: SanFrancisco@interconti.com > > Secure, online registration is required. This event will reach > capacity quickly. Tuition covers event costs, including materials, > refreshments, meals, equipment and related expenses. > > Knowledge Economics Summit Secure Online Registration > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > ------ > > The KM Cluster Knowledge Economics Summit is open to all. > Pre-registration online is required. Unlike expensive mega-conferences > and hype-fueled vendor seminars, participation is keep small to > maximize productive interactions. > > All participants are identified. Follow-up interaction and ongoing > collaboration among participants and event leaders is encouraged and > commonplace. > > For secure, online registration visit: > https://www.kmcluster.com/secureorderform.htm > > Sincerely, > > Edward Swanstrom > Secretary-General > Global Knowledge Economics Council > http://www.gkec.org > edward-swanstrom@gkec.org > > John Maloney > www.kmcluster.com/kes > jmaloney@kmcluster.com > Knowledge Management Cluster > > To be removed from the KM Standards mailing list, visit > http://www.nationalknowledge.com/remove.asp?code=2736858733 From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jul 10 16:13:13 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7090456FF7; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (mta6.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.240]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE9F356FF5 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net ([32.102.64.193]) by mta6.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GZ200G7S3YAU6@mta6.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:31:59 -0700 From: Rod Welch Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Economics of Management Enable Culture of Knowledge To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org, "Maloney, John" Cc: "Clare, Mark" Message-id: <3D2CC3EF.E9F08E68@attglobal.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <000101c22864$74911120$180ec53f@home> Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org John, Thanks for the correction to Mark's address. The copy sent to him bounced back, so I called Mark and left a message. He should get the copy of the letter to you..... http://www.welchco.com/04/00070/61/02/07/0801.HTM#0001 ...with re-submission in your letter below, but just to be safe, am providing another copy, per above. Glad to hear there is strong interest in your important conference. Rod ************* John Maloney wrote: > > Rod, > > Thanks for your message and best wishes. > > The "Knowledge Economics Summit" is filling-up fast. There is > considerable demand for the twin disciplines of "Value-based Knowledge > Management" and "Economics-based Knowledge Management." > > Please note Mark Clare's preferred email: mark.clare@verizon.net. > > Cordially, > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Rod Welch > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 3:41 PM > To: announce@gkec.org > Cc: Clare, Mark; Snowden, Dave; Traille, Ed; Conklin, Jeff; OHS/DKR, SRI > Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Economics of Management Enable Culture of > Knowledge > > John, > > Thanks for your letter on June 27, shown below, announcing a seminar > where Mark Clare will develop ROI calculations for KM. This can be a > powerful enabling force that provides timely guidance to strengthen > wider economy, as further set out in my letter to you.... > > http://www.welchco.com/04/00070/61/02/07/0801.HTM#0001 > > Good luck with the conference. > > Thanks. > > Rod > > ************* > > announce@gkec.org wrote: > > > > The Global Knowledge Economics Council (GKEC) invites you to "The > > Knowledge Economics Summit" sponsored by the GKEC and the Knowledge > > Management ClusterR > > > > The Knowledge Economics Summit will be Monday and Tuesday, July 29/30, > > > 2002 in San Francisco, California USA, from 8am-5pm. > > > > http://www.kmcluster.com/kes/ > > > > The Knowledge Economics Summit is the first event of its kind to > > combine the twin disciplines of "Value-based Knowledge Management" and > > > "Economics-based Knowledge Management" into an efficient, two-day, > > interactive workshop. > > > > This event is an important milestones in the ascendancy of knowledge > > management and enterprise collaboration. It will be instrumental in > > establishing KM, enterprise collaboration and communities as key > > financial drivers and competitive differentiators for the enterprise. > > > > This workshop will allow you to articulate to top management, boards, > > shareholders and investors the stunning financial advantages and > > lasting value of your knowledge management and enterprise > > collaboration initiatives. > > > > The methods and techniques you will take away from this event will > > allow you to capture the attention of your top management in order to > > win sponsorship and lead excellence in KM and enterprise > > collaboration. > > > > You will learn proven techniques to build powerful cases for your KM > > initiatives using the language and techniques of business economics > > and corporate finance. > > > > The Knowledge Economics Summit is not a discussion of management fads > > or philosophy. It is a hands-on workshop to equip you with the tools > > and abilities to understand and drive the financial benefits and value > > > of knowledge management and enterprise collaboration. You will learn > > how to use KM, collaboration and community to drive top-line growth > > and bottom-line efficiencies for the enterprise. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > ------ > > Benefits > > The Knowledge Economics Summit will give you the tools to propel > knowledge > > management and enterprise collaboration onto the enterprise agenda. It > > will enable you to rationalize and lead a robust knowledge strategy > for > > your firm. > > > > Many KM and enterprise collaboration initiatives are challenged. They > > languish from lack of awareness, poor measurement and misunderstood > > financial benefits. > > > > The Knowledge Economics Summit will allow you to answer the > > fundamental question -- What are the financial advantages, benefits > > and shareholder value created by your knowledge management and > > enterprise collaboration strategies, initiatives and technology > > deployments? > > > > The hands-on Knowledge Economics Summit will give you the tools and > > techniques to allow you to achieve the following goals and objectives > > for your organization, clients and customers: > > > > o Learn/use applied tools and techniques for Value-based Knowledge > > Management > > > > o Fundamentally and permanantly reform financial management techniques > > > for knowledge management, enterprise collaboration and business > > communities > > > > o Develop hard financial and systems level models to evaluate and > > select KM and collaboration technologies > > > > o Use corporate finance and economic techniques to show the > > mission-critical nature of KM and enterprise collaboration > > > > o Displace ineffective information systems investment with effective > > financial leadership of knowledge-based initiatives > > > > o Arrive at a common definition and vocabulary for Value-based > > Knowledge Management and Knowledge Economics > > > > o Identify resources and opinion leaders in Knowledge Economics > > > > o Interact with your peer group to share and diffuse KM innovations > > and models > > > > The main thrust of the Knowledge Economics Summit occurs at the > > intersection of leadership, practice and research. > > > > By design and necessity, the Knowledge Economic Summit triangulates > > business leadership, knowledge management practice and leading > > academic research. The result is practical, relevant and immediate > > application to business. > > > > You will take away turnkey tools, methods, templates, formulas, > > techniques and concepts to immediately and effectively apply in your > > day-to-day activities and longer term KM planning initiatives. > > > > Knowledge Economics Summit Event Web > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > ------ > > Logistics and Registration > > The Knowledge Economics Summit will be Monday and Tuesday, July 29/30, > > 2002 in San Francisco, California USA, from 8am-5pm. > > > > The venue is: > > > > The California Room > > Mark Hopkins Inter-Continental Hotel > > Number One Nob Hill, 999 California Street > > San Francisco, California 94108 USA > > Tel: +1 415 392 3434, Fax: +1 415 421 3302 > > E-mail: SanFrancisco@interconti.com > > > > Secure, online registration is required. This event will reach > > capacity quickly. Tuition covers event costs, including materials, > > refreshments, meals, equipment and related expenses. > > > > Knowledge Economics Summit Secure Online Registration > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ---- > > ------ > > > > The KM Cluster Knowledge Economics Summit is open to all. > > Pre-registration online is required. Unlike expensive mega-conferences > > > and hype-fueled vendor seminars, participation is keep small to > > maximize productive interactions. > > > > All participants are identified. Follow-up interaction and ongoing > > collaboration among participants and event leaders is encouraged and > > commonplace. > > > > For secure, online registration visit: > > https://www.kmcluster.com/secureorderform.htm > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Edward Swanstrom > > Secretary-General > > Global Knowledge Economics Council > > http://www.gkec.org > > edward-swanstrom@gkec.org > > > > John Maloney > > www.kmcluster.com/kes > > jmaloney@kmcluster.com > > Knowledge Management Cluster > > > > To be removed from the KM Standards mailing list, visit > > http://www.nationalknowledge.com/remove.asp?code=2736858733 From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Wed Jul 10 20:56:09 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E5A3F56FF8; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 88E1A56FF7 for ; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:56:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net ([32.102.64.117]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GZ200GLPH1W9Q@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 21:14:58 -0700 From: Rod Welch Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <3D2D0642.FB0F0556@attglobal.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <000d01c22689$68eddfb0$180ec53f@home> Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org John, As we have discussed, a "knowledge" sciences effort indicated in your letter on July 8, is important, but has proven elusive over the past few years, as reported by Dave Snowden at IBM in the paper you cited in a letter on 020608... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/02/06/08/193547.HTM#ZN6I You may recall that on 991217 we attended a KM event in San Ramone where the attendees did not know anything about KM... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/99/12/17/090006.HTM#9030 Subsequently, on 991221 you sent a suggestion to work with Doug Engelbart and the people at SRI on an effort to advance KM... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/99/12/21/230502.HTM#0001 ...like the Manhattan project called out in your letter on 020708... On 991222 review of Doug's writings and discussion with Doug showed interest in supporting KM... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/99/12/22/104523.HTM#0897 On 000120 the central dilemma of KM was presented to Doug's group about defining a meaningful distinction between information and knowledge... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/01/20/080146.HTM#5063 On 000212 Eric Armstrong made some progress on this issue... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/02/12/193428.HTM#G49J On 000324 SRI reported other KM projects had failed... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/03/24/160030.HTM#4877 ...presaging Dave's report two (2) years later. On 000407 Doug's SRI group was reminded about the need to define knowledge, as previously suggested on 000120.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/04/07/115815.HTM#2805 However, on 000503 Eric reported this task is too difficult... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/05/03/191727.HTM#5033 A month or so later, the entire team adopted the same position... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/06/15/160030.HTM#6271 Since that time there has been a lot of discussion about ontology, Wiki, SOAP, dialog maps, IBIS, C++, Java, collaboration, semiotics, topic maps, et al, for two (2) years or more. On 001025 Doug Engelbart made a simple request for people to put a link or two in communications that show alignment between current perspective and related information in order to provide context.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/10/25/095632.HTM#00VU ...that helps grow a culture of knowledge by giving people experience working with connections of cause and effect. Doug's request reflects good management practice calling for an audit trail showing traceability to original sources, reviewed on 950721.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/95/07/21/134937.HTM#1740 This request has not been met, as Dave Snowden relates in his paper which you submitted on 020608... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/02/06/08/193547.HTM#ZN6I People revert to calling things "Manhattan" in hopes of creating sufficient attention for empowering improvement, following the model of WWII, where the bombing of Pearl Harbor and fear of German success with nuclear ordinance focused attention on solving a complex problem. In that case, the people working on the problem understood the underlying science, but had to work out technicalities of implementation (according to the movies I have seen). The difficulty in the case of KM, is that the design seems to be a secret. The people at Microsoft, IBM, Yale, Stanford, and so don't have an underlying concept to follow because the distinction between information and knowledge is unclear because it can only be grasped based on experience, and nobody has time to gain the experience, as evidenced by the lack of response on Doug's request on 001025. Moreover, once the secret is discovered a new set of social problems arise, because the light of knowledge brings the burden of responsibility, under the rule so and so knew, or reasonably should have known. As a result, fear of accountability makes the light of knowledge a greater burden than the darkness of ignorance under the legend of Prometheus reviewed on 991108.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/99/11/08/191947.HTM#XP53 This record seems to suggest that a Manhattan project can be effective for KM. I was just curious whether anyone has focused on these thorny issues that have persisted for several thousand years. Rod *************** > John Maloney wrote: > > Greetings, > > The Behavioral Computational Neuroscience Group and The > OntologyStream are proposing a Manhattan Project to establish the > Knowledge Sciences: > > http://www.bcngroup.org/area3/manhattan/sindex.htm. > > The BCNGroup Founding Committee asks that we forward information > about this Project to a wide audience! > > The link at: http://www.bcngroup.org/area3/manhattan/sindex.htm. has > a button and Java script to automate the sending of e-mail about the > Manhattan project to e-mail addresses that you enter. > > > > Cheers, > > > > -jtm From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jul 11 05:21:15 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id E686856FF9; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7984F56FF8 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from home ([63.197.14.24]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GZ3005NT4FR4J@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:38:16 -0700 From: John Maloney Subject: RE: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences In-reply-to: <3D2D0642.FB0F0556@attglobal.net> To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <000101c228d7$d4782b00$180ec53f@home> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Importance: Normal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-priority: Normal Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org "Success is going from one failure to the next without a loss of enthusiasm." -Winston Churchill -----Original Message----- From: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org [mailto:owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Rod Welch Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:15 PM To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences John, As we have discussed, a "knowledge" sciences effort indicated in your letter on July 8, is important, but has proven elusive over the past few years, as reported by Dave Snowden at IBM in the paper you cited in a letter on 020608... From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jul 11 06:37:35 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id AA55156FFA; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:37:34 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from prserv.net (out4.prserv.net [32.97.166.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2AFC156FF9 for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net (slip-32-102-91-74.ca.us.prserv.net[32.102.91.74]) by prserv.net (out4) with SMTP id <2002071113543420404e9c04e>; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:54:35 +0000 Message-ID: <3D2D8E86.3662E2C0@attglobal.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 06:56:22 -0700 From: Rod Welch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences References: <000101c228d7$d4782b00$180ec53f@home> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org John, I concur with Churchill's formula for success of persistent enthusiasm, as related in your letter this morning, shown below. Others have made similar observations, e.g., Edison, reviewed on 950710.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/95/07/10/002652.HTM#0582 ...and more recently, Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld addressing the War College on 020131.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/02/01/31/191927.HTM#6L5K Of course other ingredients are needed to supplement persistence and enthusiasm. Getting an early start shown by your letter sent at 0538 this morning is a big help under the rule "The early bird gets the worm." Alas, however, there must come a time to move beyond clichés to address both technical and social issues in order to make meaningful advance, as shown by the record in the letter yesterday, and mentioned in Dave Snowden's paper, which you submitted on 020608... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/02/06/08/193547.HTM#ZN6I This requires alliance to leverage talents, called out by Rumsfeld in remarks on 020131, per above, and that enabling forces operating over time reach a critical mass, as occurred with the original Manhattan Project, and discussed with Doug Engelbart on 001120.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/01/11/20/204936.HTM#H67I One such enabling force is for people to continue to keep an open mind about the potential for improvement, and not to give up in despair by succumbing to ignorance, fear and denial. That is why I support your conference to keep the flame of progress burning for a little longer, and appreciate very much your enthusiasm. Would like to see it applied to address action items in the record in order to expedite progress, but maybe that will come after your conference. I can well imagine you are very busy right now, so there is too little time for deliberative analysis. Hopefully, this will not be "too little to late," as someone once said. Rod ************* John Maloney wrote: > > "Success is going from one failure to the next without a loss of > enthusiasm." > > > -Winston Churchill > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org > [mailto:owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org] On Behalf Of Rod Welch > Sent: Wednesday, July 10, 2002 9:15 PM > To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org > Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge > Sciences > > John, > > As we have discussed, a "knowledge" sciences effort indicated in your > letter on July 8, is important, but has proven elusive over the past few > years, as reported by Dave Snowden at IBM in the paper you cited in a > letter on 020608... From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jul 11 07:13:45 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0155F56FFB; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from prserv.net (out2.prserv.net [32.97.166.32]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BFCA56FFA for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:13:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net (slip-32-102-91-74.ca.us.prserv.net[32.102.91.74]) by prserv.net (out2) with SMTP id <2002071114304420206nhkbue>; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:30:45 +0000 Message-ID: <3D2D9700.7BEE0C13@attglobal.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:32:32 -0700 From: Rod Welch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Malcolm Dean Cc: "OHS/DKR, SRI" Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Questions on Religion, Science and Management References: <006201c228a0$1a7f6470$a9a02240@w2ksp240g3wm> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Malcolm, Thanks for willingness to engage the prospect that an original idea can be applied profitably to new conditions, implied by the question in your letter yesterday, shown below, that says in part.... "What distinguishes your practice from the scriptural literalist nonsense put out by fundamentalists of all stripes? Why should you not be dismissed as a crackpot?" "Crackpot" typically connotes deceit, e.g., the Pied Piper says to follow me and I will lead you to the promise land, but instead everyone drowns in a sea of false promises, as developed in reviewing Steven Covey's book on 921205... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/92/12/05/000758.HTM#5940 Note line 222341 in the record on 921205 explains that selecting the "right" path from among incessant promises of charlatans and "crackpots" requires analysis, questions, an examination of the record and review of costs and benefits. People can look through the SDS record and get a sense about how the method of Com Metrics compares with current practice, and then make an independent judgment about whether to try the path using SDS or continue their present course. If you navigated through any of the references in the letter responding to John Maloney's notice on the Manhattan Project to Establish Knowledge Sciences, then you will have encountered other SDS records. These records demonstrate a new way of working to consistently create a connected web of chronology that imparts cause and effect based on context, to solve daily problems using the eight (8) steps shown in the record on 001219.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/12/19/071408.HTM#4W4L Religion is a powerful force that gives people faith essential for trying a new way of working. Without faith, nobody will ever try anything new, because until people try, they have no experience that says it will work. With this short introduction, I refer you to the explanation in NWO that expands the idea of religion as the "science of life"... http://www.welchco.com/03/00050/01/09/03/02/03/0309.HTM#4723 ...and I invite others who have interacted with SDS records over many years to comment on whether this method has been a false promise, or has consistently yielded work product that can fairly be described as augmenting intelligence, noted by the US Army Corps of Engineers in its report on 970328... http://www.welchco.com/04/00065/60/97/03/2801.HTM#6172 Thanks for an interesting question. Rod *************** Malcolm Dean wrote: > > I received your post to bahs-os-talk on the Manhattan Project to establish > the Knowledge Sciences. > > It sounded quite interesting and valuable, up to a specific point, at which > I decided to simply put the matter directly to you and see how you respond. > > After navigating through pages of provocative comments, I arrived at a > section on religion in which you propose the Bible as the solution to > management problems. > > What distinguishes your practice from the scriptural literalist nonsense put > out by fundamentalists of all stripes? Why should you not be dismissed as a > crackpot? > > Malcolm Dean > Los Angeles From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jul 11 07:44:49 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id EE3A056FFC; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from prserv.net (out4.prserv.net [32.97.166.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8954C56FFB for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 07:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net (slip-32-102-91-74.ca.us.prserv.net[32.102.91.74]) by prserv.net (out4) with SMTP id <2002071115014820406h6c49e>; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:01:49 +0000 Message-ID: <3D2D9E48.6633E7F5@attglobal.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:03:36 -0700 From: Rod Welch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rmaedler@attbi.com Cc: "OHS/DKR, SRI" Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Communication metrics References: <006c01c2289f$d72480c0$6401a8c0@C966760a> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Rick, Thanks for your inquiry in your letter yesterday about SDS and Com Metrics. SDS is a software program that enables a practice of Com Metrics to align daily communications with objectives, requirements and commitments, similar to the way a spreadsheet program supports accounting to align daily finances with budgets, and is explained in the record on 940901.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/94/09/01/105333.HTM#2929 A scope of services was developed by the US Army Corps of Engineers... http://www.welchco.com/04/00065/60/97/03/2801.HTM#4929 There are eight (8) steps for using SDS to perform Com Metrics, as shown on 001219.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/12/19/071408.HTM#4W4L A typical day scenario explains how these steps are applied through the course of a work day.... http://www.welchco.com/03/00050/01/09/01/15/00101.HTM#0001 Actual usage of course depends on particulars of the work at hand. Examples for a wide range of fields was listed in a recent letter on 020708.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/02/07/08/104022.HTM#MZ6O Please let me know if you need more information, and thanks for interest in this capability. Rod *********** > Rick Maedler wrote: > > Rod, > > I noticed your web site and was intrigued by your mention of > communication metrics. Do you have a software product for sale or a > service or both? > > Regards, > > Rick Maedler From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jul 11 10:45:20 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6EFA156FFD; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from prserv.net (out1.prserv.net [32.97.166.31]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B115956FFC for ; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net (slip-32-102-64-198.ca.us.prserv.net[32.102.64.198]) by prserv.net (out1) with SMTP id <2002071118021820103pvk7ce>; Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:02:20 +0000 Message-ID: <3D2DC896.445F9865@attglobal.net> Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 11:04:06 -0700 From: Rod Welch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ross Foti Cc: "DeHart, Bill" , "OHS/DKR, SRI" , "Harrow, Stuart" Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] PM Network Q & A Article References: <57C26B0C1D72D411B7910008C7BF06E552FA82@IMAGNTS1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Ross, PMI and related professionals have developed techniques for tracking cost and schedule metrics, and in recent years these have have been integrated using the Cost/Schedule Control System Criteria (C/SCSC) developed for measuring progress on major procurements by DOD. On 950202 Harold Kerzner lectured on the importance of integrated solutions... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/95/02/02/093022.HTM#0001 What has been missing up until now are Communication Metrics that complement traditional methods. Since communication is a predicate to action, aligning daily communication necessarily has a bigger impact on saving time and money than simply measuring cost and schedule after the fact. What are these metrics? The US Army Corps of Engineers published a report showing that unanswered correspondence, pending action items, overlooked subjects at meetings, and aligning daily work with objectives, requirements and commitments are critical ways to measure progress, and reduce costs at the rate of about 10:1.... http://www.welchco.com/04/00065/60/97/10/0702.HTM#0001 Benefits of Com Metrics are further explained in NWO that was published in an earlier form by PMI in 1996... http://www.welchco.com/03/00050/01/09/03/02/03/0309.HTM#0742 Hope this helps. For a longer anecdote, see the record of PMI's Asilomar Conference on 940611 presenting a case study that illustrates how communication gets mixed up to delay progress... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/94/06/11/083850.HTM#8239 PMI tried to fix this problem a few years later, and made good progress, but there is still quite a bit to do... http://www.welchco.com/04/00009/03/0008.HTM#0001 Your Q&A article may help. Rod ************** Ross Foti wrote: > > I hope you are doing well. I am writing to see if you are interested in > answering a short question for an upcoming feature in PM Network magazine, > the monthly magazine of the Project Management Institute. I'm looking for a > 40- to 70-word response to the following question: > > How do you measure project progress? > > Basically, I'm looking for a short anecdote or a best practice about metrics > tracking--nothing too involved. I feel our readers would be very interested > in your response, and would love for you to participate. However, if you are > not interested, it would be great if you could recommend someone who you > think would give a good answer. The deadline for a response is Thursday, > July 18. > > Please let me know if you are willing and able. Thanks so much for your > time--I really appreciate your help on this. > > Sincerely, > Ross > > Ross Foti > Imagination Publishing > 2222 N. Elston Ave. > 2nd Floor > Chicago, IL 60614 > 773/252-3200, ext. 28 > fax: 773/252-3290 > rfoti@imaginepub.com > www.imaginepub.com From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Jul 12 11:30:44 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 82CF556FF4; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C21556FF3 for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020712184745.VETS6023.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Fri, 12 Jul 2002 18:47:45 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020712114237.025f1100@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:45:08 -0700 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Spam filtering tools Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org http://razor.sourceforge.net/ "Vipul's Razor is a distributed, collaborative, spam detection and filtering network. Through user contribution, Razor establishes a distributed and constantly updating catalogue of spam in propagation that is consulted by email clients to filter out known spam. Detection is done with statistical and randomized signatures that efficiently spot mutating spam content. User input is validated through reputation assignments based on consensus on report and revoke assertions which in turn is used for computing confidence values associated with individual signatures. " There is an enormous amount of technology in this project that, I think, has broader implications and applicability in an OHS environment. For instance: "The Razor v2 protocol has been completely redesigned. The new protocol is based on exchange of Structured Information Strings, that are similar to URIs and can be parsed with URI decoding libraries. v2 protocol supports Pipelining, which means Razor Agents can keep a connection open with server to eliminate the latency introduced by TCP 3-way handshake and 4-way breakdown for every connection. The new protocol semantics allow seamless introduction of new signature schemes. Razor v2 protocol specification will be available shortly" and "Nilsimsa is a fuzzy signature algorithm based on statistical models of n-gram occurrence in a piece of text. Nilsimsa disregards small changes (mutations) in text that are statistically irrelevant. Nilsimsa signatures can be compared to determine the similarity (between 0 - 100%) in source texts. Razor v2 includes support for Nilsimsa signatures. " From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Sun Jul 14 18:37:51 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7C92E56FF3; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 17A3756FF2 for ; Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020715015459.GEWV6023.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 01:54:59 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020714185054.02612db0@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:52:05 -0700 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Fwd: [xml-dev] Open source XML Editor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org This looks pretty good! >From: Justin Lipton >Subject: [xml-dev] Open source XML Editor > >I am pleased to announce the release of the Xerlin open source XML Editor >project http://www.xerlin.org. > >Xerlin is an open source, java based, XML editor released under an Apache >style license. It has an extensible architecture designed to support >customized user interfaces. > >Users and developers are welcome to use and contribute to the project. >Source and binary distributions are available, including the latest CVS >sources. > >Xerlin includes software developed by ChannelPoint, Inc. for use in the >Merlot XML Editor www.merlotxml.org (the original Merlot site is no longer >active). ChannelPoint founded and hosted the Merlot XML Editor as an open >source project during 2000-2001. Xerlin has been created to build on those >foundations, and has the support of many of the same Developers. > >The Xerlin project is hosted by SpeedLegal (http://www.speedlegal.com), >the XML-based document assembly company. From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Jul 15 10:25:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0851E56FF3; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9979056FF2 for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020715174254.HVVN6023.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:42:54 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020715103951.025fab00@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:40:19 -0700 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Fwd: [xml-dev] Trigram tables Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org FYI... >From: John Cowan > >I have just developed trigram tables for English based on the Brown Corpus. >Public domain, use as you will. > >http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/trigrams > >-- >John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan >"One time I called in to the central system and started working on a big >thick 'sed' and 'awk' heavy duty data bashing script. One of the geologists >came by, looked over my shoulder and said 'Oh, that happens to me too. >Try hanging up and phoning in again.'" --Beverly Erlebacher From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jul 18 13:47:51 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 4274856FF3; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:47:50 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (nwkea-mail-1.sun.com [192.18.42.13]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B135F56FF2 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by nwkea-mail-1.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17439 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g6IL4tC05297 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D372D77.226A1508@sun.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:04:55 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences References: <000d01c22689$68eddfb0$180ec53f@home> <3D2D0642.FB0F0556@attglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Rod, thanks again for your inspired summary of the record. Thoughts on two of the items below. Rod Welch wrote: > .... > On 000407 Doug's SRI group was reminded about the need to define > knowledge, as previously suggested on 000120.... > .... > Since that time there has been a lot of discussion about ontology, > Wiki, SOAP, dialog maps, IBIS, C++, Java, collaboration, semiotics, > topic maps, et al, for two (2) years or more. Personally, I'm inclined to think of knowledge as "categorized how-to information". At least, that's a working definition that lets me think in terms of answers to the question "What X do we need help people do useful work?" I think "categorized how-to information" fits the definition of X, and I don't mind using "knowledge" for the terminology -- at least until someone gives me a better definition of knowledge and I have to call X something else. That way, when I want to search for information on making my Sony stereo component work, I can search for Sony by name, but search for categories of like "troubleshooting", "installation", "wiring diagrams", or things of that nature. Right now, I'm fascinated by the idea of using network analysis to identify categories and sub-categories. Once presented with a cluster of related sites, any ontologist worth their salt could hang a label on it. A group of ontologists doing that would rapidly build up a useful ontology. Note: Some categories, like "Sony components" are obvious. The site's links do the clustering. But it is intriguing to think that there might be some "how to fix it" pages out there that link to a collection of pages on Sony's site, and some on other sites, that would create a "troubleshooting" category. Now, using the kind of technique Doug has been favoring, where you add metadata to existing pages without modifying the pages themselves, categories could be added wholesale. Once an ontologist creates a name for a cluster of closely-related items in the network, all of those items would be immediately and automatically tagged. Further, since variations in the network occur incrementally, the metadata tagging could be automatically updated each night so that new pages get the appropriate tags by virtue of their links. Of course.... Some hair ball is going to come up with idea of making links just to get themselves categorized, but since no one will be linking to *them*, they lie far down the category-chain. > People resort to calling things "Manhattan" in hopes of .... I had pretty much the same emotional reaction, although I would characterize things a little differently. In my mind, the idea of a "Manhattan" effort is that: 1) You get the best and the brightest minds. 2) You put them in an environment that is free from distractions (like the pesky annoyance of making a living) 3) You give them a difficult, challenging, and important problem to solve. 4) You put them in close quarters, so ideas can rub elbows, jostle each other, and spur a cycle of innovations. Such mechanisms can and do work. However, failing to meet all of the requirements leads to nice cooperative efforts that fail to meet the "Manhattan" ideal. In particular, #2 and #4 are key. We *want* distributed systems that will allow #4, but do not yet have them, so physical proximity is a requirement for a "Manhattan" effort, at this point in time. More important, though, is #2. Combined with #4, these requirements are another way of saying "isolatation". Isolation serves a number of important purposes: * freedom from distraction (of all kinds) * accelerated discourse, by eliminating the need to bring the (relatively) uniformed "up to speed" on radical new concepts * freedom from negative influences that say it can't be done, and from the need to spend your time justifying the opposite opinion It would be a great idea, imho. But calling an effort a "Manhattan Project" doesn't make one -- even if it is a noble, valuable, and desirable project! From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jul 18 16:20:59 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 0FFF056FF3; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A350E56FF2 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:20:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net ([63.202.176.77]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GZG00FC9XNI5A@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:44:57 -0700 From: Rod Welch Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <3D3752F9.B8DB1DFC@attglobal.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <000d01c22689$68eddfb0$180ec53f@home> <3D2D0642.FB0F0556@attglobal.net> <3D372D77.226A1508@sun.com> Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Eric, As usual, good analysis in your letter today, shown below on defining "knowledge," as a predicate to progress on KM, and identifying key details of a Manhattan Project to formulate Knowledge Sciences. Your definition of knowledge as "categorized how-to information" is ambling toward a useful direction. Refinement that further distinguishes knowledge from information will sharpen the focus on what needs to be done differently to solve problems on 010911, and arrest the decline of productivity and earnings that worries investors, as your explained in your letter on 011003... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/01/10/03/160603.HTM#EC5N Try finding POIMS to see if it sheds any light.... http://www.welchco.com/03/00050/01/09/01/02/00030.HTM#00QR On 010916 you said it's hard to find anything using popular methods everybody likes, but take another look. When we met at Intel on 000517 you had printed POIMS and later thought it was in the back seat of the car.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/05/17/160031.HTM#WA5L If so, there may be some clues about moving from information to a culture of knowledge noted in your subsequent letter on 010916. Jack reported on 011003 that he has found no clues, but I am not sure he had found POIMS, either, at least I don't recall seeing analysis of the caliber you did today, per below, directed at understanding POIMS. It is probably out of the question because nobody has the time these days, like they did in Einstein's time, but a useful exercise, after understanding information and knowledge, would be to look for correlations and alignment between POIMS and Doug's OHS Launch Plan which he submitted on 001025, and then to incorporate that analysis into your CDR specs. As I recall, you made a significant start on 000505, but then there was a hang-up sometime around 001105 (don't hold me to these dates, they can be tricky). Lee Iverson later did more under the banner of NODAL. Putting this ferment together builds a community of expertise and eventually of practice needed for progress. Once you develop a set of ideas for creating technology that improves IT, then a Manhattan Project to implement those ideas will have a chance to succeed. Without understanding what needs to be done, you can easily exceed an unlimited budget and have nothing to show for it, as occurred with IBM, per Paul's letter on 001130. Recall that in about 1903 Einstein worked out the basic concept on converting matter into energy. Others later developed engineering methodologies (as you and Lee, Jack, Eugene and others have struggled with for KM), so by the time Manhattan came along in about 1942, the 50 years that Buck Minister Fuller suggests is the time required for a new way of doing things to mature, had transpired. In 1942 they had a lot of clues about what to do, and so a critical mass of people, resources and leadership was successful working out implementation engineering, as you relate cogently in your letter today. At this time, today, however, it is not clear that there is enough knowledge about what to do to move from IT to a culture of knowledge, not even a clue outside of POIMS, because limited time, and, in some respects, cultural blinders, have prevented people from doing the careful spade work that is tedious and essential in the beginning to breath life into a new direction for science. To justify a Manhattan-type effort, clues must be found and people must be found who are willing to invest time for following the clues to discover how knowledge is distinguished from information in a way that technology can exploit. Good to see the group thinking foundationally again, per your letter on 000212. Rod ******************** Eric Armstrong wrote: > > Rod, thanks again for your inspired summary of the record. > Thoughts on two of the items below. > > Rod Welch wrote: > > > .... > > On 000407 Doug's SRI group was reminded about the need to define > > knowledge, as previously suggested on 000120.... > > .... > > Since that time there has been a lot of discussion about ontology, > > Wiki, SOAP, dialog maps, IBIS, C++, Java, collaboration, semiotics, > > topic maps, et al, for two (2) years or more. > > Personally, I'm inclined to think of knowledge as "categorized > how-to information". At least, that's a working definition that lets > me think in terms of answers to the question "What X do we need > help people do useful work?" > > I think "categorized how-to information" fits the definition of X, and > I don't mind using "knowledge" for the terminology -- at least until > someone gives me a better definition of knowledge and I have to > call X something else. > > That way, when I want to search for information on making my > Sony stereo component work, I can search for Sony by name, > but search for categories of like "troubleshooting", "installation", > "wiring diagrams", or things of that nature. > > Right now, I'm fascinated by the idea of using network analysis to > identify categories and sub-categories. Once presented with a > cluster of related sites, any ontologist worth their salt could hang a > label on it. A group of ontologists doing that would rapidly build up > a useful ontology. > > Note: > Some categories, like "Sony components" are obvious. The > site's links do the clustering. But it is intriguing to think that > there might be some "how to fix it" pages out there that link > to a collection of pages on Sony's site, and some on other > sites, that would create a "troubleshooting" category. > > Now, using the kind of technique Doug has been favoring, where you > add metadata to existing pages without modifying the pages themselves, > categories could be added wholesale. Once an ontologist creates a > name for a cluster of closely-related items in the network, all of those > items would be immediately and automatically tagged. > > Further, since variations in the network occur incrementally, the > metadata tagging could be automatically updated each night so > that new pages get the appropriate tags by virtue of their links. > > Of course.... > Some hair ball is going to come up with idea of making links just > to get themselves categorized, but since no one will be linking to > *them*, they lie far down the category-chain. > > > People resort to calling things "Manhattan" in hopes of .... > > I had pretty much the same emotional reaction, although I would > characterize > things a little differently. > > In my mind, the idea of a "Manhattan" effort is that: > 1) You get the best and the brightest minds. > 2) You put them in an environment that is free from distractions > (like the pesky annoyance of making a living) > 3) You give them a difficult, challenging, and important problem > to solve. > 4) You put them in close quarters, so ideas can rub elbows, > jostle each other, and spur a cycle of innovations. > > Such mechanisms can and do work. However, failing to meet all > of the requirements leads to nice cooperative efforts that fail to > meet the "Manhattan" ideal. > > In particular, #2 and #4 are key. We *want* distributed systems > that will allow #4, but do not yet have them, so physical proximity > is a requirement for a "Manhattan" effort, at this point in time. > > More important, though, is #2. Combined with #4, these requirements > are another way of saying "isolatation". Isolation serves a number > of important purposes: > * freedom from distraction (of all kinds) > * accelerated discourse, by eliminating the need to bring > the (relatively) uniformed "up to speed" on radical new concepts > * freedom from negative influences that say it can't be done, > and from the need to spend your time justifying the opposite > opinion > > It would be a great idea, imho. But calling an effort a > "Manhattan Project" doesn't make one -- even if it is a noble, > valuable, and desirable project! From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jul 18 16:37:52 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1A4D756FF5; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from kathmandu.sun.com (kathmandu.sun.com [192.18.98.36]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9F63A56FF2 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by kathmandu.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10390 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:54:59 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g6INsxC17730 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:54:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D375552.D0591E0B@sun.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:54:58 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences References: <000d01c22689$68eddfb0$180ec53f@home> <3D2D0642.FB0F0556@attglobal.net> <3D372D77.226A1508@sun.com> <3D3752F9.B8DB1DFC@attglobal.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Interesting point, Rod. You are saying, in effect, that we are in 1902 with respect to having a good knowledge theory, and that if an Einstein came up with it today, we'd be ready to implement it about 2050. I sure hope we can improve on that! Rod Welch wrote: > Eric, > > As usual, good analysis in your letter today, shown below on defining > "knowledge," as a predicate to progress on KM, and identifying key > details of a Manhattan Project to formulate Knowledge Sciences. > > Your definition of knowledge as "categorized how-to information" is > ambling toward a useful direction. Refinement that further > distinguishes knowledge from information will sharpen the focus on > what needs to be done differently to solve problems on 010911, and > arrest the decline of productivity and earnings that worries > investors, as your explained in your letter on 011003... > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/01/10/03/160603.HTM#EC5N > > Try finding POIMS to see if it sheds any light.... > > http://www.welchco.com/03/00050/01/09/01/02/00030.HTM#00QR > > On 010916 you said it's hard to find anything using popular methods > everybody likes, but take another look. When we met at Intel on > 000517 you had printed POIMS and later thought it was in the back seat > of the car.... > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/05/17/160031.HTM#WA5L > > If so, there may be some clues about moving from information to a > culture of knowledge noted in your subsequent letter on 010916. Jack > reported on 011003 that he has found no clues, but I am not sure he > had found POIMS, either, at least I don't recall seeing analysis of > the caliber you did today, per below, directed at understanding POIMS. > > It is probably out of the question because nobody has the time these > days, like they did in Einstein's time, but a useful exercise, after > understanding information and knowledge, would be to look for > correlations and alignment between POIMS and Doug's OHS Launch Plan > which he submitted on 001025, and then to incorporate that analysis > into your CDR specs. As I recall, you made a significant start on > 000505, but then there was a hang-up sometime around 001105 (don't > hold me to these dates, they can be tricky). Lee Iverson later did > more under the banner of NODAL. Putting this ferment together builds > a community of expertise and eventually of practice needed for > progress. > > Once you develop a set of ideas for creating technology that improves > IT, then a Manhattan Project to implement those ideas will have a > chance to succeed. Without understanding what needs to be done, you > can easily exceed an unlimited budget and have nothing to show for it, > as occurred with IBM, per Paul's letter on 001130. Recall that in > about 1903 Einstein worked out the basic concept on converting matter > into energy. Others later developed engineering methodologies (as you > and Lee, Jack, Eugene and others have struggled with for KM), so by > the time Manhattan came along in about 1942, the 50 years that Buck > Minister Fuller suggests is the time required for a new way of doing > things to mature, had transpired. In 1942 they had a lot of clues > about what to do, and so a critical mass of people, resources and > leadership was successful working out implementation engineering, as > you relate cogently in your letter today. > > At this time, today, however, it is not clear that there is enough > knowledge about what to do to move from IT to a culture of knowledge, > not even a clue outside of POIMS, because limited time, and, in some > respects, cultural blinders, have prevented people from doing the > careful spade work that is tedious and essential in the beginning to > breath life into a new direction for science. To justify a > Manhattan-type effort, clues must be found and people must be found > who are willing to invest time for following the clues to discover how > knowledge is distinguished from information in a way that technology > can exploit. > > Good to see the group thinking foundationally again, per your letter > on 000212. > > Rod > > ******************** > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > Rod, thanks again for your inspired summary of the record. > > Thoughts on two of the items below. > > > > Rod Welch wrote: > > > > > .... > > > On 000407 Doug's SRI group was reminded about the need to define > > > knowledge, as previously suggested on 000120.... > > > .... > > > Since that time there has been a lot of discussion about ontology, > > > Wiki, SOAP, dialog maps, IBIS, C++, Java, collaboration, semiotics, > > > topic maps, et al, for two (2) years or more. > > > > Personally, I'm inclined to think of knowledge as "categorized > > how-to information". At least, that's a working definition that lets > > me think in terms of answers to the question "What X do we need > > help people do useful work?" > > > > I think "categorized how-to information" fits the definition of X, and > > I don't mind using "knowledge" for the terminology -- at least until > > someone gives me a better definition of knowledge and I have to > > call X something else. > > > > That way, when I want to search for information on making my > > Sony stereo component work, I can search for Sony by name, > > but search for categories of like "troubleshooting", "installation", > > "wiring diagrams", or things of that nature. > > > > Right now, I'm fascinated by the idea of using network analysis to > > identify categories and sub-categories. Once presented with a > > cluster of related sites, any ontologist worth their salt could hang a > > label on it. A group of ontologists doing that would rapidly build up > > a useful ontology. > > > > Note: > > Some categories, like "Sony components" are obvious. The > > site's links do the clustering. But it is intriguing to think that > > there might be some "how to fix it" pages out there that link > > to a collection of pages on Sony's site, and some on other > > sites, that would create a "troubleshooting" category. > > > > Now, using the kind of technique Doug has been favoring, where you > > add metadata to existing pages without modifying the pages themselves, > > categories could be added wholesale. Once an ontologist creates a > > name for a cluster of closely-related items in the network, all of those > > items would be immediately and automatically tagged. > > > > Further, since variations in the network occur incrementally, the > > metadata tagging could be automatically updated each night so > > that new pages get the appropriate tags by virtue of their links. > > > > Of course.... > > Some hair ball is going to come up with idea of making links just > > to get themselves categorized, but since no one will be linking to > > *them*, they lie far down the category-chain. > > > > > People resort to calling things "Manhattan" in hopes of .... > > > > I had pretty much the same emotional reaction, although I would > > characterize > > things a little differently. > > > > In my mind, the idea of a "Manhattan" effort is that: > > 1) You get the best and the brightest minds. > > 2) You put them in an environment that is free from distractions > > (like the pesky annoyance of making a living) > > 3) You give them a difficult, challenging, and important problem > > to solve. > > 4) You put them in close quarters, so ideas can rub elbows, > > jostle each other, and spur a cycle of innovations. > > > > Such mechanisms can and do work. However, failing to meet all > > of the requirements leads to nice cooperative efforts that fail to > > meet the "Manhattan" ideal. > > > > In particular, #2 and #4 are key. We *want* distributed systems > > that will allow #4, but do not yet have them, so physical proximity > > is a requirement for a "Manhattan" effort, at this point in time. > > > > More important, though, is #2. Combined with #4, these requirements > > are another way of saying "isolatation". Isolation serves a number > > of important purposes: > > * freedom from distraction (of all kinds) > > * accelerated discourse, by eliminating the need to bring > > the (relatively) uniformed "up to speed" on radical new concepts > > * freedom from negative influences that say it can't be done, > > and from the need to spend your time justifying the opposite > > opinion > > > > It would be a great idea, imho. But calling an effort a > > "Manhattan Project" doesn't make one -- even if it is a noble, > > valuable, and desirable project! From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Thu Jul 18 17:01:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 2C06456FF5; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (rwcrmhc53.attbi.com [204.127.198.39]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D9ABA56FF2 for ; Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:01:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by rwcrmhc53.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020719001857.KVLJ26053.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@sony> for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:18:57 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020718171418.02629d40@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:16:19 -0700 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Adobe Extensible Metadata Platform Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org http://www.adobe.com/products/xmp/pdfs/whitepaper.pdf In line with some of the things Eric has been saying recently about metadata, this paper outlines a metadata platform. It's a pretty good low level introduction to the topic. It's a "Manager's Guide..." From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Fri Jul 19 11:02:29 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 856BC56FF3; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2289D56FF2 for ; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net ([63.206.90.149]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GZI00AJXDKL10@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 11:26:23 -0700 From: Rod Welch Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Manhattan Project to establish the Knowledge Sciences To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <3D3859CF.654982FC@attglobal.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <000d01c22689$68eddfb0$180ec53f@home> <3D2D0642.FB0F0556@attglobal.net> <3D372D77.226A1508@sun.com> <3D3752F9.B8DB1DFC@attglobal.net> <3D375552.D0591E0B@sun.com> Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Eric, Check the back seat of the car. Sometimes we overlook things when rushed. The minds eye looks past the obvious. For example, Doug began work on the problem of using technology to improve management in the 1960s, and Professor Miller did earlier work in 1950s on explaining human cognition. SDS was begun in the 1980s that melds these ideas. Doing the math, it may be time to seize the moment, if only we have time to listen. Rod *************** Eric Armstrong wrote: > > Interesting point, Rod. You are saying, in effect, that we are in 1902 > with respect to having a good knowledge theory, and that if an > Einstein came up with it today, we'd be ready to implement it about > 2050. > > I sure hope we can improve on that! > > Rod Welch wrote: > > > Eric, > > > > As usual, good analysis in your letter today, shown below on defining > > "knowledge," as a predicate to progress on KM, and identifying key > > details of a Manhattan Project to formulate Knowledge Sciences. > > > > Your definition of knowledge as "categorized how-to information" is > > ambling toward a useful direction. Refinement that further > > distinguishes knowledge from information will sharpen the focus on > > what needs to be done differently to solve problems on 010911, and > > arrest the decline of productivity and earnings that worries > > investors, as your explained in your letter on 011003... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/01/10/03/160603.HTM#EC5N > > > > Try finding POIMS to see if it sheds any light.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/03/00050/01/09/01/02/00030.HTM#00QR > > > > On 010916 you said it's hard to find anything using popular methods > > everybody likes, but take another look. When we met at Intel on > > 000517 you had printed POIMS and later thought it was in the back seat > > of the car.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/05/17/160031.HTM#WA5L > > > > If so, there may be some clues about moving from information to a > > culture of knowledge noted in your subsequent letter on 010916. Jack > > reported on 011003 that he has found no clues, but I am not sure he > > had found POIMS, either, at least I don't recall seeing analysis of > > the caliber you did today, per below, directed at understanding POIMS. > > > > It is probably out of the question because nobody has the time these > > days, like they did in Einstein's time, but a useful exercise, after > > understanding information and knowledge, would be to look for > > correlations and alignment between POIMS and Doug's OHS Launch Plan > > which he submitted on 001025, and then to incorporate that analysis > > into your CDR specs. As I recall, you made a significant start on > > 000505, but then there was a hang-up sometime around 001105 (don't > > hold me to these dates, they can be tricky). Lee Iverson later did > > more under the banner of NODAL. Putting this ferment together builds > > a community of expertise and eventually of practice needed for > > progress. > > > > Once you develop a set of ideas for creating technology that improves > > IT, then a Manhattan Project to implement those ideas will have a > > chance to succeed. Without understanding what needs to be done, you > > can easily exceed an unlimited budget and have nothing to show for it, > > as occurred with IBM, per Paul's letter on 001130. Recall that in > > about 1903 Einstein worked out the basic concept on converting matter > > into energy. Others later developed engineering methodologies (as you > > and Lee, Jack, Eugene and others have struggled with for KM), so by > > the time Manhattan came along in about 1942, the 50 years that Buck > > Minister Fuller suggests is the time required for a new way of doing > > things to mature, had transpired. In 1942 they had a lot of clues > > about what to do, and so a critical mass of people, resources and > > leadership was successful working out implementation engineering, as > > you relate cogently in your letter today. > > > > At this time, today, however, it is not clear that there is enough > > knowledge about what to do to move from IT to a culture of knowledge, > > not even a clue outside of POIMS, because limited time, and, in some > > respects, cultural blinders, have prevented people from doing the > > careful spade work that is tedious and essential in the beginning to > > breath life into a new direction for science. To justify a > > Manhattan-type effort, clues must be found and people must be found > > who are willing to invest time for following the clues to discover how > > knowledge is distinguished from information in a way that technology > > can exploit. > > > > Good to see the group thinking foundationally again, per your letter > > on 000212. > > > > Rod > > > > ******************** > > > > Eric Armstrong wrote: > > > > > > Rod, thanks again for your inspired summary of the record. > > > Thoughts on two of the items below. > > > > > > Rod Welch wrote: > > > > > > > .... > > > > On 000407 Doug's SRI group was reminded about the need to define > > > > knowledge, as previously suggested on 000120.... > > > > .... > > > > Since that time there has been a lot of discussion about ontology, > > > > Wiki, SOAP, dialog maps, IBIS, C++, Java, collaboration, semiotics, > > > > topic maps, et al, for two (2) years or more. > > > > > > Personally, I'm inclined to think of knowledge as "categorized > > > how-to information". At least, that's a working definition that lets > > > me think in terms of answers to the question "What X do we need > > > help people do useful work?" > > > > > > I think "categorized how-to information" fits the definition of X, and > > > I don't mind using "knowledge" for the terminology -- at least until > > > someone gives me a better definition of knowledge and I have to > > > call X something else. > > > > > > That way, when I want to search for information on making my > > > Sony stereo component work, I can search for Sony by name, > > > but search for categories of like "troubleshooting", "installation", > > > "wiring diagrams", or things of that nature. > > > > > > Right now, I'm fascinated by the idea of using network analysis to > > > identify categories and sub-categories. Once presented with a > > > cluster of related sites, any ontologist worth their salt could hang a > > > label on it. A group of ontologists doing that would rapidly build up > > > a useful ontology. > > > > > > Note: > > > Some categories, like "Sony components" are obvious. The > > > site's links do the clustering. But it is intriguing to think that > > > there might be some "how to fix it" pages out there that link > > > to a collection of pages on Sony's site, and some on other > > > sites, that would create a "troubleshooting" category. > > > > > > Now, using the kind of technique Doug has been favoring, where you > > > add metadata to existing pages without modifying the pages themselves, > > > categories could be added wholesale. Once an ontologist creates a > > > name for a cluster of closely-related items in the network, all of those > > > items would be immediately and automatically tagged. > > > > > > Further, since variations in the network occur incrementally, the > > > metadata tagging could be automatically updated each night so > > > that new pages get the appropriate tags by virtue of their links. > > > > > > Of course.... > > > Some hair ball is going to come up with idea of making links just > > > to get themselves categorized, but since no one will be linking to > > > *them*, they lie far down the category-chain. > > > > > > > People resort to calling things "Manhattan" in hopes of .... > > > > > > I had pretty much the same emotional reaction, although I would > > > characterize > > > things a little differently. > > > > > > In my mind, the idea of a "Manhattan" effort is that: > > > 1) You get the best and the brightest minds. > > > 2) You put them in an environment that is free from distractions > > > (like the pesky annoyance of making a living) > > > 3) You give them a difficult, challenging, and important problem > > > to solve. > > > 4) You put them in close quarters, so ideas can rub elbows, > > > jostle each other, and spur a cycle of innovations. > > > > > > Such mechanisms can and do work. However, failing to meet all > > > of the requirements leads to nice cooperative efforts that fail to > > > meet the "Manhattan" ideal. > > > > > > In particular, #2 and #4 are key. We *want* distributed systems > > > that will allow #4, but do not yet have them, so physical proximity > > > is a requirement for a "Manhattan" effort, at this point in time. > > > > > > More important, though, is #2. Combined with #4, these requirements > > > are another way of saying "isolatation". Isolation serves a number > > > of important purposes: > > > * freedom from distraction (of all kinds) > > > * accelerated discourse, by eliminating the need to bring > > > the (relatively) uniformed "up to speed" on radical new concepts > > > * freedom from negative influences that say it can't be done, > > > and from the need to spend your time justifying the opposite > > > opinion > > > > > > It would be a great idea, imho. But calling an effort a > > > "Manhattan Project" doesn't make one -- even if it is a noble, > > > valuable, and desirable project! From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 23 02:59:09 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 21A6F56FF4; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 02:59:09 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (mta7.pltn13.pbi.net [64.164.98.8]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B2EFA56FF3 for ; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 02:59:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net ([32.100.71.194]) by mta7.pltn13.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0GZP007KU5V2EQ@mta7.pltn13.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2002 03:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 03:18:15 -0700 From: Rod Welch Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Trying to accomplish KM Deploy SDS To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Message-id: <3D3D2D67.7B86D2A5@attglobal.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <000001c20387$340423b0$2002a8c0@D9KP0711> <3CF6D145.9325C6B8@kurtz-fernhout.com> <3CF6EE49.4A688A4C@attglobal.net> <3CF71A0B.389FA588@sun.com> Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Eric, Sorry to have taken so long to follow up on your letter talking about using SDS, if a way could be found to deploy and support this capability, per analysis on 020530.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/02/05/30/201330.HTM#Y89F This issue arises in the larger context of what the OHS/DKR effort is trying to accomplish. A threshold task is to begin linking the record, as related on 020530 ... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/02/05/30/201330.HTM#WK4H ...based on Doug's letter on 001025. If we could see a few links here and there into the record, this would indicate people are ready to get started on the journey from IT to a culture of knowledge. Unfortunately, in your case, this threshold task is objectionable. My sense is that the objection comes from lack of experience "playing the music", and so can be repaired by getting behind the wheel so to speak; but, if not, SDS is not a good direction for you. SDS is designed to aid organization and making connections that augment intelligence, noted in your letter on 010916. Since intelligence is used for everything, SDS supports a wide range of tasks, as shown in the letter on 020708.... http://www.welchco.com/04/00070/61/02/07/0801.HTM#9M7J Let me know if you want to get started. That would shorten up the 50 year thing you asked about the other day. Thanks. Rod *************** Eric Armstrong wrote: > > Incredible, Rod. You continually amaze with your ability > to access the record. If we had tools of the kind you have > developed, I believe we *would* use them. (I've only > quarreled with having to link to everything, instead of > incorporating it, but hey...) > :_) > > Rod Welch wrote: > > > Paul, > > > > Specifically on 001025 Doug called for developing technology that > > implements the OHS Launch plan.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/10/25/095632.HTM#G3W8 > > > > ...that describes a Hyperscope, a DKR and a new work role for > > augmenting intelligence that improves handling of daily working > > information for solving world problems. > > > > Another thing Doug wants to accomplish is to foster a community that > > "bootstraps" its expertise by using existing technology, primarily > > through email to create a connected web of dialog and analysis that, > > over time, grows knowledge about how to augment intelligence and how > > to build technology that aids that objective.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/10/25/095632.HTM#00VU > > > > So far these objectives have not been accomplished, except with SDS. > > On 001126 Eugene Kim recommended using IT with greater diligence to > > accomplish Doug's vision, rather than using SDS.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/11/26/214933.HTM#BY4K > > > > In addition, on 000623 Jack Park wanted to accomplish ontology tasks > > by building an "engine, so that knowledge work would be faster and > > easier than it is using current IT.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/06/23/114155.HTM#2915 > > > > This "engine" would accomplish Eric's goal of augmenting intelligence, > > which he identified based on Doug's vision, reported on 000423.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/04/23/114819.HTM#5933 > > > > Without being too long winded, there has been discussion about dialog > > maps, topic maps, outlining, IBIS and XML. > > > > Paul noticed recently that progress has been delayed because license > > issues prevent people from submitting actual code. Doug addressed > > this issue, and Mei Lin proposes rolling up our sleeves and getting to > > work, starting with new meetings were experts can listen to Doug and > > formulate a solution. > > > > Today, Paul raises important conceptual issues both on technology and > > on the business case relating to investing time. > > > > I like Paul's discussion about "documents." > > > > My sense is that since documents have been around for 2,000 years, > > books, articles, reports, correspondence like this letter, and so on > > will continue to be used for the foreseeable future We therefore need > > to develop ways that add value to information in documents. This > > raises the prospect of a new way of working with literacy for reading > > and writing. Since Doug proposes a new way of working and thinking on > > the Bootstrap website, reviewed on 991222.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/99/12/22/104523.HTM#3696 > > > > ...a new way of working with documents seems like a reasonable step to > > take. > > > > One approach that has evolved over the past 20 years or so is > > explained on 001219.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/12/19/071408.HTM#4W4L > > > > ...also, explained in POIMS... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/03/00050/01/09/01/02/00030.HTM#3742 > > > > Since everyone will not agree, Paul's second point about the practical > > business considerations for creating a next generation technology is > > critical. > > > > What seems most evident is that (1) the design of KM is difficult, > > certainly counterintuitive, and (2) people are not willing to invest > > time to work on ideas they do not believe are effective. The whole > > concept of open source, that folks do what they want, is antithetical > > to innovative design. By definition innovation is "new," so people > > are ignorant and fearful about it until they gain experience. > > > > So, even if the design were given over, there is no hope it can be > > implemented without investment to buy people's time to work on things > > they believe will not work, until such time as they gain sufficient > > experience to learn about KM, as set out in POIMS. see for example the > > record on 961101... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/96/11/01/132459.HTM#L191740 > > > > In other words there is an innovation loop that can only be > > transcended through experience, and it takes money to buy time for > > people with the right kind of skills to gain that experience. > > > > This is evident from Eric's letter on 011003 saying people have to be > > paid to do KM, because it takes so much time using the tools everybody > > likes to use.... > > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/01/10/03/160603.HTM#O73F > > > > Eric's point is evident from the failure of folks to link the record, > > as requested by Doug on 001025. If we are unwilling to do this simple > > step because it does not fit with the way we like to work, how can we > > hope to build tools that are different from the way we think they > > should work? > > > > Accordingly, I largely agree with Paul's second point. > > > > Hopefully, Paul, Jack, Eugene, Joe, Lee, Eric, and others will go > > ahead and develop their ideas and provide work product demonstrating > > added value for a new way of working that saves time and money. This > > will attract a critical mass of capabilities that accomplish Doug's > > vision for a DKR that uses an OHS and Hyperscope to implement the ABC > > improvement model, as Doug laid out on 001025, based on his writings > > the past half century. > > > > Rod > > > > *************** > > > > Paul Fernhout wrote: > > > > > > Mei Lin Fung wrote: > > > > [Lost of good stuff snipped] > > > > People who have been in Doug's orbit sometimes feel they understand > > > > fully the problem and what needs to be done. Often that seems to involve > > > > putting Doug on the shelf so that he stops making these troublesome > > > > remarks that people can't understand. > > > > > > > > This is to do him a disservice, that's my opinion. He is not at a place > > > > in his life where he wants to debate his ideas and plans, they have been > > > > the product of 51 years of thinking. He just wants to do it and to work > > > > with people that want to do it. What he wants to do has been outlined > > > > in the OHS Launch Plan for the hyperscope, BI2120. > > > > http://www.bootstrap.org/augment/BI/2120.html > > > > > > [Trying to catch up a tiny bit...] > > > > > > Mei Lin- > > > > > > One major issue here is a fundamental contradiction between implementing > > > the perfect OHS on the first pass, versus bootstrapping a population of > > > tools capable of evolution. > > > > > > I don't think anyone here disrespects Doug's technical accomplishments > > > or his social ones of getting creative people together. I don't think > > > anyone here disrespects his vision for something good for humankind by > > > enabling high performance teams capable of further bootstrapping (until > > > transcendence?). It would be wonderful to see Doug's current vision for > > > an OHS implemented as it is a distillation of years of experience and > > > pondering, whether or not the current design is perfect. If you want to > > > help him implement exactly that specification, and recruit others to do > > > so, more power to you. > > > > > > Still, doing so would take considerable effort, and the question is who > > > will make that investment and for what reasons -- given an estimate of > > > the project's chances of success (in various ways) against how useful it > > > will be and what is already out there. Much of the value of this list > > > has been in seeing all the other things people have been doing, both for > > > ideas and to avoid reinventing wheels (or at least, for me, to avoid > > > reinventing other free wheels). > > > > > > I'm not ready to make that investment myself, in part (beyond licensing) > > > because I have specific design issues with aspects of OHS design, which > > > were raised quite a while back. (And frankly, I'm not up on all the > > > latest discussion, so some of these issues may have been better > > > addressed since then, either by Doug or various other contributors.) > > > > > > The most serious issue is in the notion of "Document" which I think > > > needs further contemplation. For example, where do document boundaries > > > end? How are documents composed of other components? How do documents > > > change through time along with the system itself? How are documents > > > merged? How are they split? Is the notion of "Document" really a > > > valuable idea as opposed to say nested versioned hierarchies (e.g. OTI's > > > Envy for Smalltalk) or networks with paragraphs at the base?) (These are > > > related to some issues William Kent raises in "Data & Reality"). > > > > > > The second major design issue revolves around the notion of a link. > > > While I think it makes sense to be able to use a system to move from a > > > viewed concept to related items, it isn't clear what the best way to do > > > that is, given the power of search engines (which can find all pages > > > containing a text string) and that the link an author originally creates > > > (say for a definition) may not reflect the current needs of the reader. > > > Also, related to transcending links is the issue of distributed > > > non-locational content. > > > > > > Design issues can be thrashed through and both of the above issues could > > > probably be resolved in some form in a process that involves > > > bootstrapping Doug's design (if license issues & permisison to use were > > > resolved yada yada). > > > > > > Doug seems to have a gift for defining requirements, and the documents I > > > look at seem more like requirements documents than architecture to me. > > > To elaborate on how what is spelled out are requirements, one could say > > > the system should be capable of helping people deal with things some > > > people call documents -- even if documents don't exist in the system as > > > such. Similarly, the system should support the author's intent in > > > defining useful links -- but that does not mean that is necessarily the > > > only sort of link or navigation the system might handle, or that > > > internally the system will represent links as they are conventionally > > > described these days in HTML syntax. > > > > > > This fundamental contradiction between implementing a perfect system in > > > one pass versus bootstrapping a self-reflective one (is perhaps one > > > reason people (including me) set off in entirely different directions > > > rather than implement the OHS or Hyperscope spec. I, for one, remain > > > respectfully always informed by Doug's vision, but perhaps not always > > > movign things along in a way exactly as he planned. > > > > > > Also, such systems may tend to be perhaps nearly from scratch in various > > > ways but using existing tools. This fundamental contradiction might > > > also end up being reflected in the tools used and the tradeoffs (speed > > > vs. storage vs. flexibility etc.) in and Bootstrappable architecture. > > > It's a difficult set of challenges -- and there are schools of > > > programming thought like "extreme programming" that argue to never put > > > in any flexibility in the system because there are infinite ways you can > > > do that so most of that effort will be wasted. I don't completely agree > > > with that; I think every once in a while you see an elegant way to stay > > > flexible. > > > > > > Frankly, it isn't clear to me from the OHS or Hyperscope specifications > > > I have looked at, such as linked above, how evolving the system code > > > itself in a bootstrapping way is easily doable (as opposed to evolving > > > the textual content). I'm not saying it is impossible, just that the > > > focus seems more on a great system to evolve populations of textual > > > content, as opposed to a great framework for the evolution of > > > populations of code. Granted, that is the need most people have for an > > > OHS and what atttracts most peopel to the concept. There is a lot of > > > content out there to deal with, not the least of which is this mailing > > > list. > > > > > > That self-reflective aspect of the system isn't emphasized, such as it > > > is with, say, Squeak Smalltalk (for all its other issues) or, say, Forth > > > (the premier Bootstrapping computer language in some ways). Naturally, > > > evolving code versus evolving content don't have to be in opposition > > > (since code is content). What I am talking about here is more just an > > > issue of focus and what aspects and levels of the system architecture > > > one is talking most about. > > > > > > Still, I think the fundamental contradiction would ideally be addressed > > > to lower the risk of any specific implementation approach. > > > > > > Just to give one tiny example in this direction (and to break my own > > > rule about not posting code here until licensing is resolved...) > > > > > > ==================== > > > > > > [The following lines of code disclaimed to the public domain in an > > > effort to be useful and to limit liability, and come with NO WARRANTY:] > > > > > > import org.python.util.*; > > > import org.python.core.*; > > > > > > ... > > > > > > void OnRunPython() > > > { > > > PythonInterpreter interp = new PythonInterpreter(); > > > String program = this.textEditor.getText(); > > > interp.exec(program); > > > } > > > > > > ==================== > > > > > > This the essence of a crystallized Java program that can bootstrap > > > itself using Jython (Python in Java), even to the point of launching new > > > windows, communicating over the internet, retrieving versions of its > > > source from a database, and so on. > > > > > > There are other approaches, say by bootstrapping IBM's Eclipse Java > > > development environment (or Sun's Netbeans, or GCC & Emacs, etc.). > > > > > > In any case, this is a code example related to resolving the > > > contradiction... > > > > > > -Paul Fernhout > > > == The Pointrel Foundation > > > == Helping people understand nature, technology, and society > > > == by developing networks of free digital libraries > > > == and free software and free content to put in them. > > > == http://www.pointrel.org From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Jul 29 18:44:53 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 6183E57007; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E292756FF2 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net ([63.206.91.231]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H0100AW6HNKPT@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:09:09 -0700 From: Rod Welch Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Network bookkeeping system and OHS/DKR To: "Lincoln, Patrick" Cc: "OHS/DKR, SRI" Message-id: <3D45F545.5CD1989F@attglobal.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Boundary_(ID_PDogcWB/CTBlBvcTnde7Pg)" X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_PDogcWB/CTBlBvcTnde7Pg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Pat, Per our discussion today, below is the letter to Tom Munnecke at SAIC which relates time and cost savings from using the method Doug requested for improving engineering management in his letter on 00102= 5 concerning the OHS/DKR Launch Plan. This issue was reviewed recently on 020723.... http://www.welchco.com/04/00067/61/02/07/2301.HTM#0001 =20 =2E..and so may be sufficiently fresh in everyone's mind to follow th= e discussion on the advantage of linking the record, as you and I discussed today. Tom's interest in network bookkeeping seems, also, related to OHS/DKR objectives for open source efforts, and so the letter says a copy was submitted to Doug's group, but I goofed and did not send the copy on 020726, so am doing so now. Thanks again for taking the time to meet. I will get something back to you in the next day or so. In the meantime, happy traveling. Rod --Boundary_(ID_PDogcWB/CTBlBvcTnde7Pg) Content-type: message/rfc822 Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 15:34:12 -0700 From: Rod Welch Subject: Network bookkeeping system To: Tom Munnecke Cc: "Park, Jack" , "Palanza, Dan" Message-id: <3D41CE64.50CB6586@attglobal.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Accept-Language: en X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 References: <000a01c2342f$1214de60$6401a8c0@tomoffice> Tom, Responding to your letter on 020725, shown below, it helps to get a link to the record for context in responding to inquires. Click on the double dots showing an explicit link and copy the address from th= e location bar, then paste it to your letter. It only takes a second and this small investment saves a lot of time and money for others to understand communication and take appropriate action. It greatly increases the chances of getting a response by lowering the level of effort. For example, today, it took about 90 seconds to get the records you seem to have in mind. However, that entailed interpretation, and the= n looking up a subject and calling a report. What if I made a mistake interpreting what you said, the time could have doubled, tripled or worse, taken up to 5 minutes. Some people might have said, "Hey, I don't have five seconds, to do a favor, must less 5 minutes, and as a result, just give up because it is too hard to find anything, as reported on 011003.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/01/10/03/160603.HTM#EC5N =2E..and earlier on 010916... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/01/09/16/213549.HTM#KA6H If you had supplied a link, as shown below, it would have taken only one second or maybe 2 or 4 seconds, if the system is slow today. That's within the worse case scenario for even the laziest, inconsiderate, apathetic interlocutor to respond. In addition, look at the cost savings of 900%, 450% or 250% at worst. Any way you look at it, multiplied across the nation of people looking things up, that's a lot of savings, particularly when combined with the cost of fixing mistakes when people just go by the gist of things, because they don't have time to find the correct information. Some people say nobody cares about cost savings because they get paid the same whether they work intelligently or not. But, eventually, as waste and mistakes build up a critical mass is reached and suddenly there is no job, like at Enron, Worldcom, etc. =20 On the substance of your letter, Dan Palanza has done important work on network bookkeeping shown for example in the record on 990706.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/99/07/10/094631.HTM#LF5I Dan explained his ideas in more detail in a letter on 990804... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/99/08/04/085204.HTM#0001 Recently, application of this method may arise in open source and "free" software development, and in various new models proposed for example by Jack Park on 020522 discussing micropayments, which implie= s rigorous accounting. By copy, I am letting Jack know of your interes= t in this matter. Also, providing a copy to OHS/DKR group who has been looking into way= s to use technology for improving knowledge work. You may be able to reach Dan at the email address shown above. Rod ************ > Tom Munnecke wrote: >=20 > I noticed Dan Palanza=92s network bookkeeping paper on your web sit= e=85 > very interesting stuff=85 >=20 > I am interested in the notion of transformational information > systems=85 any updates to this paper? >=20 > Tom Munnecke. --Boundary_(ID_PDogcWB/CTBlBvcTnde7Pg)-- From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mon Jul 29 23:52:25 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 3E68556FF3; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 23:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net (puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.139]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E3FCA56FF2 for ; Mon, 29 Jul 2002 23:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dsl-64-34-160-169.telocity.com ([64.34.160.169] helo=w2ksp240g3wm) by puffin.mail.pas.earthlink.net with asmtp (Exim 3.33 #1) id 17ZR8X-0001WY-00 for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:09:42 -0700 Message-ID: <03c401c23798$13eed0d0$a9a02240@w2ksp240g3wm> From: "Malcolm Dean" To: References: <3D45F545.5CD1989F@attglobal.net> Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Network bookkeeping system and OHS/DKR Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:08:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-ELNK-Trace: b13018cc6e0921787d66bf1ef5780ba59ef193a6bfc3dd4875f5f12bb37559e725190e1ffe358b5493caf27dac41a8fd350badd9bab72f9c350badd9bab72f9c Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Mr. Welch, for those of us who don't have a year to devote to following the links you liberally sprinkle and reading your articles, exactly what software are you selling, where is it reviewed, and what platforms does it run on? Malcolm Dean Los Angeles ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rod Welch" To: "Lincoln, Patrick" Cc: "OHS/DKR, SRI" Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 7:09 PM Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Network bookkeeping system and OHS/DKR Pat, Per our discussion today, below is the letter to Tom Munnecke at SAIC which relates time and cost savings from using the method Doug requested for improving engineering management in his letter on 001025 concerning the OHS/DKR Launch Plan. This issue was reviewed recently on 020723.... http://www.welchco.com/04/00067/61/02/07/2301.HTM#0001 ...and so may be sufficiently fresh in everyone's mind to follow the discussion on the advantage of linking the record, as you and I discussed today. Tom's interest in network bookkeeping seems, also, related to OHS/DKR objectives for open source efforts, and so the letter says a copy was submitted to Doug's group, but I goofed and did not send the copy on 020726, so am doing so now. Thanks again for taking the time to meet. I will get something back to you in the next day or so. In the meantime, happy traveling. Rod From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 30 06:38:03 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 1E52056FF3; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from m5.andara.com (m5-real.eastlink.ca [24.222.0.25]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 440B056FF2 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 06:38:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (u116n213.hfx.eastlink.ca [24.222.116.213]) by m5.andara.com (8.12.1/8.12.1) with ESMTP id g6UDtf3F020374 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 10:55:41 -0300 (ADT) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:55:26 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v482) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Purpling our BA-OHS and BA-UNREV e-mails From: Mark Szpakowski To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <000D5E41-A3C4-11D6-9B34-0003934E2EE6@well.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.482) Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org This is a follow-up to some suggestions made in April... On April 22, at http://www.bootstrap.org/lists/ba-ohs- talk/0204/msg00144.html#nid05, I suggested that: > If they [e-mails] hit Eugene's program first, and _then_ got > redistributed, we could gradually start receiving richer versions of the > e-mail items in our own mailboxes, For starters, arriving with the URI > of message in the archive. I could then easily grab and feed that to my > personal information husbandry routines. Eugene Eric Kim responded on April 24, at http://www.bootstrap.org/lists/ba-ohs-talk/0204/msg00177.html#nid03, with: > I think it's worth an > experiment. GNU Mailman (http://www.list.org/) is a good candidate for > hacking in this regard, because archiving is integrated with the list > management software. In other words, the list management software will > know what the archived URL will be before it sends the message. That's > not the case with the Majordomo/MHonArc combination BA is using right > now. John Sechrest responded to this on April 24, at http://www.bootstrap.org/lists/ba-ohs-talk/0204/msg00178.html#nid03, suggesting: > We could easily hack the majordomo/mhonarc combination > so that it did know the URL ahead of time. > > > The way to do this is: > > Adjust the alias for the list to mail to a program > which is a mail message processor, and it pushs > the message into mhonarc, gets the URL and then > filters the message. Then sends it on to the list. I think this is still a good idea: it would improve our process, because we could immediately start our own info-management of UNREV and OHS list items. I feel a bit sheepish re-suggesting this, because I'm not the one who would do the work, but it seems like a good, concrete, relatively simple, task that carries some bootstrap characteristics, and starts getting purple numbers out into the world. Cheers, Mark From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 30 09:10:46 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 7C1F456FF3; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:10:45 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from sccrmhc02.attbi.com (sccrmhc02.attbi.com [204.127.202.62]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 112CB56FF2 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sony ([12.234.214.35]) by sccrmhc02.attbi.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.27 201-229-121-127-20010626) with ESMTP id <20020730162807.DTKO221.sccrmhc02.attbi.com@sony> for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:28:07 +0000 Message-Id: <4.2.2.20020730092317.02666e30@thinkalong.com> X-Sender: jackpark@thinkalong.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:25:25 -0700 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Jack Park Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Software development -Big Ball of Mud Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Found this at http://www.memes.net: http://www.laputan.org/mud/ The paper argues, I think, in favor of building evolvable=20 structures. Requisite quote: "Large-lump development is based on the idea of replacement. Piecemeal=20 Growth is based on the idea of repair. =85 Large-lump development is based= on=20 the fallacy that it is possible to build perfect buildings. Piecemeal=20 growth is based on the healthier and more realistic view that mistakes are= =20 inevitable. =85 Unless money is available for repairing these mistakes,= every=20 building, once built, is condemned to be, to some extent unworkable. =85=20 Piecemeal growth is based on the assumption that adaptation between=20 buildings and their users is necessarily a slow and continuous business=20 which cannot, under any circumstances, be achieve in a single leap." From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 30 09:25:53 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 295DA56FF4; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:25:53 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from r-objects.com (zle.aviatis.com [204.145.147.224]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C0BA056FF3 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:25:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.100.5] (12-234-176-59.client.attbi.com [12.234.176.59]) by r-objects.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g6UGioX04633 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:44:50 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: jernst@mail.r-objects.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020730092317.02666e30@thinkalong.com> References: <4.2.2.20020730092317.02666e30@thinkalong.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:43:08 -0700 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org From: Johannes Ernst Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Software development -Big Ball of Mud Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org I assume most people on this list are familiar with the notion of "software patterns", and if so, you have probably read that it goes back to a notion by a (real, non-software) architect by the name of Alexander, who worked on architectural patterns for buildings and cities. What most people have not done -- and that particularly includes those, apparently, who quote Alexander when writing about software patterns -- is actually read what he had to say, which is very profound in my opinion (I've been looking at houses, including my own, differently ever since). =46ar from advocating centrally designed "top-down architectures" as we tend to do in software, he would advocate for organic improvements, and for livable structures who would adapt as the needs of the people around the structure change. The parallel with software evolution (to stay away from the derogatory and judgmental term "maintenance") is fairly obvious, but not widely explored at all. (but then, few architects build according to Alexander's rules either, which is regrettable). At 9:25 -0700 2002/07/30, Jack Park wrote: >Found this at http://www.memes.net: > >http://www.laputan.org/mud/ > >The paper argues, I think, in favor of building evolvable >structures. Requisite quote: > >"Large-lump development is based on the idea of replacement. >Piecemeal Growth is based on the idea of repair. =85 Large-lump >development is based on the fallacy that it is possible to build >perfect buildings. Piecemeal growth is based on the healthier and >more realistic view that mistakes are inevitable. =85 Unless money is >available for repairing these mistakes, every building, once built, >is condemned to be, to some extent unworkable. =85 Piecemeal growth is >based on the assumption that adaptation between buildings and their >users is necessarily a slow and continuous business which cannot, >under any circumstances, be achieve in a single leap." From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 30 17:22:45 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 9B06A56FF3; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from pheriche.sun.com (pheriche.sun.com [192.18.98.34]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1BBD656FF2 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM ([129.145.155.51]) by pheriche.sun.com (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05656 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:40:01 -0600 (MDT) Received: from sun.com (d-usca14-129-126 [129.145.129.126]) by ha1sca-mail1.SFBay.Sun.COM (8.11.6+Sun/8.10.2/ENSMAIL,v2.1p1) with ESMTP id g6V0e0C19003 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3D4731EA.CD7F50B4@sun.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:40:10 -0700 From: Eric Armstrong X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Subject: Re: [ba-ohs-talk] Purpling our BA-OHS and BA-UNREV e-mails References: <000D5E41-A3C4-11D6-9B34-0003934E2EE6@well.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Second the motion! Move we form a committee to investigate & make reccomendations for forming an investigative body chartered with a clear mandate to formulate pre-planning procedures for the preparatory planning meeting! :_) (One to many Reteif novels...) Mark Szpakowski wrote: > This is a follow-up to some suggestions made in April... > > On April 22, at http://www.bootstrap.org/lists/ba-ohs- > talk/0204/msg00144.html#nid05, > I suggested that: > > > If they [e-mails] hit Eugene's program first, and _then_ got > > redistributed, we could gradually start receiving richer versions of the > > e-mail items in our own mailboxes, For starters, arriving with the URI > > of message in the archive. I could then easily grab and feed that to my > > personal information husbandry routines. > > Eugene Eric Kim responded on April 24, at > http://www.bootstrap.org/lists/ba-ohs-talk/0204/msg00177.html#nid03, > with: > > > I think it's worth an > > experiment. GNU Mailman (http://www.list.org/) is a good candidate for > > hacking in this regard, because archiving is integrated with the list > > management software. In other words, the list management software will > > know what the archived URL will be before it sends the message. That's > > not the case with the Majordomo/MHonArc combination BA is using right > > now. > > John Sechrest responded to this on April 24, at > http://www.bootstrap.org/lists/ba-ohs-talk/0204/msg00178.html#nid03, > suggesting: > > > We could easily hack the majordomo/mhonarc combination > > so that it did know the URL ahead of time. > > > > > > The way to do this is: > > > > Adjust the alias for the list to mail to a program > > which is a mail message processor, and it pushs > > the message into mhonarc, gets the URL and then > > filters the message. Then sends it on to the list. > > I think this is still a good idea: it would improve our process, because > we could immediately start our own info-management of UNREV and OHS list > items. > > I feel a bit sheepish re-suggesting this, because I'm not the one who > would do the work, but it seems like a good, concrete, relatively > simple, task that carries some bootstrap characteristics, and starts > getting purple numbers out into the world. > > Cheers, > Mark From owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Tue Jul 30 19:49:13 2002 Return-Path: Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk-list@bi0.bootstrap.org Received: by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix, from userid 2001) id 5603956FF3; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Delivered-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Received: from mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (mta5.snfc21.pbi.net [206.13.28.241]) by bi0.bootstrap.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0570856FF2 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from attglobal.net ([12.65.156.33]) by mta5.snfc21.pbi.net (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.1 (built May 7 2001)) with ESMTP id <0H0300E7SFASVE@mta5.snfc21.pbi.net> for ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:06:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:08:42 -0700 From: Rod Welch Subject: [ba-ohs-talk] Feedback on SDS, Expanding the Gene Pool To: "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" Cc: "OHS/DKR, SRI" , "Jones, Morris E." Message-id: <3D4754BA.E030B875@attglobal.net> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: owner-ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ba-ohs-talk@bootstrap.org Gary, Thanks for the "experiment," shown in your letter below, to formulate what might be called a "transformation" mode between IT and KM using SDS as a content generator to provide a knowledge base that people ca= n apply quickly without presenting a lot of links that are confusing to people in a hurry to get things done. Your sample work product seems to suggest the SDS record enables people to select a few links that seem relevant at the moment using the tools they like, as in your case KeyNote, Microsoft Word, etc. Talked to Morris today about a business model for delivering products and services. After wrestling the thing to the ground for an hour so= , Morris mentioned experience at Intel where IBM and others market products and services for "solutions." Essentially, this would mean providing a service supported by SDS that generates "intelligence" content, which everybody can then use in the manner demonstrated by your record today to create stuff that fits the culture of the organization, but with confidence that everything is tied back to original sources by the underlying record.=20 We considered, using input from your letter the other day, that the "problem" executives need solved is that every meeting, every call, every email sows the seeds of error, resulting in continual bumbling that reduces earnings through recursive cycles of rework. Most executives don't quite frame their problem in this way. They usually say "Everything would have worked if only my people had told the truth" reported on 950412.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/95/04/12/170045.HTM#L321438 But, in more sobering moments many admit they simply don't have enoug= h time to think about all the connections that impact productivity, earnings and stock prices.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/97/09/10/170058.HTM#3479 =2E..while hurrying to the next meeting, to catch the next plane or m= ake the tee time at 2p. So, they use the 20 80 method taught at seminars and in MBA class. Some of these are realizing that thinking to connec= t the dots of cause and effect is critical on the job, otherwise things fall through the cracks, and before you know it the budget is blown and the schedule is a shambles, as you related on 011006.=20 So, conceivably it might be possible to provide low level support using SDS to create the data base that people don't have enough time nor tools to create for themselves in the communication area, similar to using accountants for creating a data base in the finance area to make sure everything is lined up with budgets.=20 Morris points out that "intelligence" is an operational service.=20 Executives and others are uncomfortable about using a service to generate content that is connected into the knowledge repository to align organizational memory for operations, but seem to hunger for something like SDS to help the sales department. We talked about why intelligence is helpful for making a sale but not for designing a product, manufacturing, doing a merger, like Enron did so well, reported on 020204.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/02/02/04/160634.HTM#EX5O =20 It was not clear in the discussion today why sales is the only place where working intelligently can save time and money. In any case, as Judge Peruls once noted, we have to start off somewhere. =20 Jack talked about "possibilities" in the 3-layer architecture.=20 Possibly the idea that SDS makes it fast and easy to create connections, as Eric noted on 010916, would fly, and then as you say, these can be held in the background by people on the job producing conventional content. That sort of sounds like a version of Jack's three (3) layers presented during the meeting at SRI on 000518... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/00/05/18/160027.HTM#8439 The Com Manager service enables a few people make sure all the links are in place that line everything up with objectives, requirements an= d commitments, so that everybody else can get on with things without being burdened by all of the links, but only use the ones they need a= t the moment. At another moment they will need other links, and this i= s in the underlying record as a resource when needed. If I am following your example, this helps accomplish the scope for judicious review reported on 990419 to enable clear, concise, complet= e communication.... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/99/04/19/105629.HTM#0L9I =2E..and further at... http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/99/04/19/105629.HTM#0M3L Since, Eric has been the master architect of this issue, possibly he will have helpful guidance, so by copy will ask for collaboration fro= m Eric. Morris can also contribute, since he is on the ground dealing with a lot of documents everyday, as you relate in the sample material. Maybe we can "bottle" this thing. Thanks. Rod *********** "Garold (Gary) L. Johnson" wrote: >=20 > Rod, >=20 > This is by way of an experiment. > I browsed the links from your letter on OHS and added a section to = my > outline. > I exported it to HTML and then did some work in an HTML editor to g= et the > page at http://www.dynalt.com/SDS/2002/07/30/sds_feedback.html >=20 > It isn=92t the easiest think to create, but then I didn=92t set out= to create > it, it just sort of crept up on me. >=20 > See what you think. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Gary