RE: [unrev-II] 2020 Hindsight: A Fictional DKR Narrative (long (sorry))

From: Bill Bearden (BBearden@BCL.net)
Date: Mon Jun 26 2000 - 06:51:27 PDT

  • Next message: Jack Park: "Re: [unrev-II] 2020 Hindsight: A Fictional DKR Narrative (long (sorry))"

    Rod,

    You bring up an interesting and valid point with which I am currently
    struggling. I have been reading (and trying to understand) some of
    Malhotra's extensions of Churchman, esp.
    http://www.brint.com/members/online/200603/kmhitech/kmhitech.html. There,
    Malhotra quotes Churchman:

    "To conceive of knowledge as a collection of information seems to rob the
    concept of all of its life... Knowledge resides in the user and not in the
    collection. It is how the user reacts to a collection of information that
    matters."

    This sounds very much like what you say.

    But if knowledge can not exist outside of the mind, how can a DKR be
    possible? By this definition, neither book nor computer can contain
    knowledge. I believe in the concept of the DKR. Therefore, I can not accept
    a definition which fundamentally prevents its existence.

    So, with your definition, my previous comment about knowledge being
    everywhere is not valid. But I would guess that your definition invalidates
    lots of things that have been discussed.

    Bill

    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: Rod Welch [mailto:rowelch@attglobal.net]
    > Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2000 6:57 AM
    > To: unrev-II@egroups.com
    > Subject: [unrev-II] 2020 Hindsight: A Fictional DKR Narrative (long
    > (sorry))
    >
    >
    > Bill,
    >
    > Just, on your comment that "knowledge is generated all the time.
    > It is all
    > around us in books, etc..."
    >
    > My sense is a little different.
    >
    > "Knowledge" resides in the minds of people, and so is constantly
    > being formed
    > out of the information that is all around us in books, TV,
    > meetings, and so on,
    > as an interplay between our experience, and the mental ability to form
    > consistent pattersn connections or patterns of cause and effect.
    >
    > Rod
    >
    >
    >
    > Bill Bearden wrote:
    > >
    > > Rod,
    > >
    > > >
    > > > Bill,
    > > >
    > > > Very thoughtful illustration you set out in your letter
    > today... <SNIP />
    > >
    > > Thanks.
    > >
    > > <SNIP />
    > >
    > > > ... your open source query
    > > > might be aided
    > > > by explaining how that approach saves time, improves productivity, and
    > > > earnings. Those criteria have proven to be good generic starting
    > > > points for
    > > > evaluating tools and work methods. ...
    > > <MORE-SNIP />
    > >
    > > I agree that the traditional "value" metrics are useful.
    > However, I question
    > > how well they apply to something truly new. I doubt that
    > electric lights or
    > > telephones were cost effective replacements for existing
    > technology right
    > > when they were introduced. If DKRs ever prove truly useful, it
    > may only be
    > > after there are lots and lots of them hooked together and people are
    > > immersed in them as a normal part of their lives. That is a
    > long ways off.
    > >
    > > And anyway, my text was an exercise in speculation as much as
    > anything. It
    > > was just me trying to describe part of a system I see in my
    > head (if I close
    > > my eyes real tight after I've had a couple of beers :-).
    > >
    > > <SNIP-SNIP-SNIP />
    > >
    > > > In the meantime, it turns out that using a keyboard, computer
    > screen, and
    > > > special tools seems to augment human intelligence beyond what can
    > > > be expected
    > > > from reliance on voice recognition and pictures, for reasons
    > in the record
    > > > reviewing Andy Grove's book on 980307...
    > > >
    > > > http://www.welchco.com/sd/08/00101/02/98/03/07/161449.HTM#L351552
    > > >
    > > > Generating knowledge is hard work. ...
    > >
    > > Yes, but knowledge is generated all the time. It is all around
    > us. Capturing
    > > it and encoding it so computers can store it and people can
    > learn it is the
    > > problem as I see it. IMO, this process will remain very
    > difficult until we
    > > have more immersive user interfaces. Until then, it *might*
    > make sense to
    > > try and "scrape" knowledge from existing stores (e.g. books, databases,
    > > source code, etc). Truly integrated information systems
    > probably yields more
    > > short term bang for the buck. Again, just my speculation.
    > >
    > > > ... But people don't mind hard work, if it
    > > > yields rewards and is fun. Games are an example. People "work"
    > > > awfully hard at
    > > > golf, tennis, running, exercise, and computer games, because they
    > > > get immediate
    > > > satisfaction of varying kinds from the experience.
    > > >
    > >
    > > I love the point you make about "work" and games. IMO, Csikszentmihalyi
    > > explains fairly well why that is in his book, Flow. I was excited to see
    > > Flow mentioned on the L3D philosophy page
    > > (http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~l3d/philosophy.html). L3D
    > (LifeLong Learning &
    > > Design) is the "mother" project of Dynasites, to which John
    > Deneen submitted
    > > a link yesterday.
    > >
    > > <FINAL-SNIP />
    > >
    > >
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